Andrew Roberts on The Habits of Churchill, Lessons from Napoleon, and The Holy Fire Inside Great Leaders (#773)

Hi Tim

This is a bit off-topic (I couldn’t find a contact email for the blog), but I had an idea for a TFS “experiment” that maybe you or your team could entertain. Recently you wrote about changing your interviewee criteria for the TFS to keep things fresh/differentiated. What if you could interview dead people? Yes, it sounds morbid, but stay with me. I prompted ChatGPT to create a 30min interview between you and Jigoro Kano (specifically asking it to consider your interviewing style and structure to replicate a somewhat “natural” conversational flow)… and the first draft was rough and not quite like your interviews, but it shows promise. I wonder if there is scope for you to create mini-series where you interview some historical figures, and use AI to both draft their replies, emulate their original voices (as much as possible – and if not possible, maybe create something original). They could be quite entertaining (for us listeners) as a side project. If you wanted to go the extra step (beyond your/your team’s own research efforts), you could enlist some historical experts to double-check the script and accuracy of the interviewed person’s perspective… an easy one would be getting Ryan Holiday to check your interview with Marcus Aurelius… 😛

Anyway, love your show – please keep doing it forever!

Pedro.

P.S. The Jigoro Kano first ChatGPT draft interview is below…

Tim Ferriss: Ladies and gentlemen, welcome to another episode of The Tim Ferriss Show, where it is my job to deconstruct world-class performers from all walks of life—whether they’re athletes, actors, entrepreneurs, or artists. Today, we have a truly special guest—Jigoro Kano, the founder of judo and a pioneer in martial arts. Kano-san revolutionized martial arts, education, and even the Olympic movement. His philosophy on continuous self-improvement and mutual welfare is something I’ve been fascinated by for years. So without further ado, Kano-san, thank you for being on the show.

Jigoro Kano: It is a pleasure to be here. I am grateful for the opportunity to share my thoughts with you.

Tim: The honor is mine. Now, I have so many questions for you, and I’d love to start by going back to the beginning. I understand that you were a small child, and you initially faced some bullying. That’s what led you to martial arts, correct?

Kano: Yes, that is true. As a child, I was physically weak, and because of this, I often faced mistreatment from stronger boys. I knew I needed to become stronger, but at the time, many traditional martial arts were not widely practiced. I sought jiu-jitsu as a way to overcome my physical limitations.

Tim: That’s so interesting because many people might think of judo as purely a physical endeavor, but you talk about overcoming limitations in a broader sense. What was your initial experience like with martial arts, and how did that shape your vision for what judo eventually became?

Kano: At first, I found martial arts to be mainly about strength and technique—how to throw, how to break free from holds. But as I practiced, I realized that true mastery required more than just physical prowess. I began to see martial arts as a way to improve oneself mentally, morally, and spiritually. Judo, which I later developed, is not merely about winning or defeating an opponent; it is about self-perfection and mutual welfare.

Tim: Self-perfection and mutual welfare—those are principles that really resonate with me, and I think they would resonate with listeners, too. How did you come up with those guiding principles, and how do they apply beyond the dojo?

Kano: When I was studying jiu-jitsu, I realized that the aim should not just be personal victory but the greater good. I developed the principle of “jita-kyoei,” which means mutual welfare and benefit. This principle applies not only in the practice of judo but in all areas of life. By helping others, we also help ourselves. In the dojo, for instance, when two people practice together, both improve. Outside the dojo, if society works together, the entire community prospers.

Tim: I love that idea—“mutual benefit.” It’s like a philosophical judo throw! You flip the whole concept of competition on its head. I’m curious, when you started developing judo as its own discipline, how did people react? Especially since jiu-jitsu was already well-established at the time.

Kano: There was resistance at first, of course. Jiu-jitsu had a long history, and many practitioners were skeptical of my methods. They were attached to the older ways, which emphasized combat effectiveness above all else. But I believed that martial arts could be more than just a means of fighting. It could become a way of developing character, and through judo, I aimed to modernize the practice while retaining the core essence of traditional martial arts.

Tim: That transition to modernization—it feels like a theme that runs through your entire life, from judo to your work in education and even in your role with the International Olympic Committee. How did you balance the preservation of tradition with the need to evolve?

Kano: It was a delicate balance. On one hand, I respected the traditions and values that martial arts had carried for centuries. On the other hand, I saw that Japan and the world were changing rapidly, and I wanted to contribute to that progress. In education, I introduced Western ideas and methods into the Japanese system while retaining core Japanese values. In judo, I kept the spirit of jiu-jitsu but adapted it to be more scientific and universal.

Tim: I find that fascinating—adapting to change while holding onto the essential parts of a system. Could you walk us through a typical day for you when you were developing judo? What did your routines look like?

Kano: My days were very structured. I would rise early in the morning and begin with some light physical exercise, usually a walk or some simple stretches. Then I would spend time reading and writing—always studying, always trying to expand my knowledge. In the afternoon, I would teach at the dojo or the university. I often practiced judo late in the day, focusing on both the physical techniques and the mental aspects.

Tim: That sounds like an incredibly disciplined routine. How did you maintain such a level of discipline, especially with so many responsibilities? You were not only running a dojo but also involved in education, international relations, and more.

Kano: Discipline comes from purpose. I knew why I was doing these things. I wanted to contribute to society, to help others develop themselves, and to leave the world a better place than I found it. This sense of purpose gave me the strength to maintain discipline in my daily life.

Tim: That’s powerful—purpose fueling discipline. Let’s talk about education because you mentioned it just now. You were an educator as well as a martial artist, and you had strong opinions on how education should be approached. How do you think judo influenced your philosophy on education?

Kano: In many ways, my experiences with judo and education were interconnected. Judo taught me that learning is a continuous process, that there is no end to self-improvement. This applies equally to education. I believed that education should not only impart knowledge but also shape the character of the student. The ultimate goal is to produce individuals who can think critically, act ethically, and contribute to society.

Tim: That ties back to what you said earlier about self-perfection. And it seems like you viewed education in the same way—as a lifelong journey. In the dojo, we think about incremental improvement through practice. Do you have a similar philosophy when it comes to personal growth and life in general?

Kano: Yes, exactly. Life, like judo, is about constant progress. You should never be satisfied with your current level of ability, whether it is in physical skills, intellectual understanding, or moral character. You must always strive to do better, to be better. This is why I often speak of “seiryoku zenyo,” or the best use of one’s energy. Life is short, so it is essential to make the most of the time and abilities we have.

Tim: “The best use of one’s energy”—I love that. One of the things I often hear from listeners is the challenge of finding balance between ambition and rest. You were incredibly ambitious, but did you ever find yourself struggling with burnout or needing to recharge?

Kano: Yes, even I experienced moments of fatigue, both physically and mentally. It is important to recognize when one needs rest. In judo, we learn the principle of yielding—sometimes you must give way to force rather than resist it. In life, this translates to understanding when to pause and recover so that you can return stronger.

Tim: That’s great advice. Yielding to come back stronger—it feels like the opposite of what many people do, but it makes so much sense. Speaking of yielding, I’d love to hear your thoughts on failure. You’ve had so many successes, but I’m sure the journey wasn’t without setbacks. How did you approach failure in your life?

Kano: Failure is a part of learning. In judo, you fall many times before you learn to stand. The key is to approach failure not as a defeat but as an opportunity to learn and grow. Each failure brings a lesson, and if you are wise, you will use that lesson to improve yourself. This is what I tried to teach my students—do not fear failure, embrace it as part of the process.

Tim: That’s such a profound mindset, and I think it’s a perfect note to end on. Kano-san, thank you so much for sharing your wisdom today. I know I’ve learned a lot, and I’m sure everyone listening has too. Before we wrap up, where can people learn more about judo or your philosophy?

Kano: I believe the best way to learn judo is through practice and study. Find a good teacher, practice with sincerity, and always seek to improve yourself, both in judo and in life.

Tim: Perfect. Thank you again, Kano-san, for your time and wisdom. This has been an absolute pleasure.

Kano: Thank you, Tim. It was an honor to speak with you.
Tim: And for all of you listening, until next time, be just a little kinder than necessary, seek progress not perfection, and as always—experiment relentlessly. Thanks for tuning in.

This is funny – full of charming little English vs US differences in understanding / language.

I never really gave credence to education in the classics but this guy is a good advert.

Subject : Long time listener, interested in your book collection

Hello Tim,

Good morning, hope you are doing well. My comment is not related to this episode, but I wanted to reach out to you through this mode since you mentioned it in the 5BF email.

I am Hari, postdoctoral researcher in Nanosciences from Spain and a big fan of your interviewing style and perspectives.

I recently heard one of your old podcasts where you mentioned that you receive a lot of books from people which is more than the time you have to read all of them. I am interested in the books you have read or the old books that you may have.

If you would love for them to have a new home, I would be happy to have them (the ones you don’t use anymore). I am an avid reader of books, both fiction and non-fiction, and I have a couple of friends who are the same. I can assure you that the books will be cherished, treasured and distributed among the people who would value them.

I am happy to pay the shipping costs for them to Spain (if it is affordable since I am in the early stage of my career).

Please let me know if you have some books you don’t need and are willing to give them away. I decided to reach out to you since it has an added eco-bonus of cross-cycling and saving the environment.

Nevertheless, keep up your good work with the interviews and the recent venture into fiction.

Thanks Tim,
Hari

P.S: I love your question of ‘which gift do you gift the most apart from yours’ to the guests. The answers are a gold mine!