Talk:Hungarian minor scale

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The Hungarian Minor is not also known as the Double Harmonic Minor. The Double Harmonic Minor (1 b2 3 4 5 b6 7) is the fifth mode of the Hungarian Minor. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 154.20.182.188 (talk) 18:25, 7 August 2007

I think the Chords given are wrong. In A Hungarian Minor there is A,B,C,D#,E,F,G#,A. The F7 chord would use F,A,C,Eb, which isn't possible there. Fmaj7 (F,A,C,E) would be correct. I believe it would be more like this, with the bracket denoting which 7th occurs. Tonic: Minor (Maj 7) Supertonic: Major b5 (Min 7) Mediant: Augmented (Major 7) Subdominant: sus2 b5 (Aug 7)(VI7 inverted) Dominant: Major (Major 7) Submediant: Major (Major 7) Leading Tone: Minor (Min 7)

or Numerically: i IIb5 bIII+ bVI7 V bVI vii — Preceding unsigned comment added by 174.116.48.60 (talk) 02:12, 23 June 2011 (UTC)[reply]

Hungarian minor scale: not worth seriously discussing how exactly it works, because it does not exist (non-existence of a concept meaning lack of general approval/usage). This page cites a few authors of little notability. These citations don't justify the existence of such wikipedia article as "Hungarian minor scale". Therefore I suggest this page be deleted or merged into a larger article that deals with alternative (experimental) music theories. Anapazapa (talk) 12:02, 24 January 2012 (UTC) Update: Franz Liszt used the term "Hungarian minor" in his badly written theory book. Anapazapa (talk) 12:12, 24 January 2012 (UTC)[reply]

It is a term used in the theory community. There are enough books that could back that up. This article needs a lot of work. It DOES NOT need to be deleted or merged. I intend one day to edit this and fix it up. — Devin.chaloux (chat) 18:31, 24 January 2012 (UTC)[reply]

I can't remember right now (don't have either book at hand), but I think it's listed somewhere in Piston's Harmony and in Persichetti's Twentieth Century Harmony, ch. 2. —Mahlerlover1^(converse) 00:14, 25 January 2012 (UTC)[reply]

By which I mean that the scale has been mentioned in more notable theoretical contexts than the Guitar Scale Dictionary, and does have at least some "general approval/usage". —Mahlerlover1^(converse) 00:23, 25 January 2012 (UTC)[reply]

"theory community" sounds weaselish to me. After ten years of study at the Hungarian music college called Liszt Academy, Budapest (half of it at the musicology dept, half at the composition dept), a few more years among jazz musicians, plus half an hour web search, I still wonder whether I overslept the Hungarian minor scale or they just refuse to talk about it in my presence. Or t is a local idea here and there. I'm truly puzzled. Anapazapa (talk) 00:27, 1 February 2012 (UTC)[reply]

Maybe it's (more or less) exclusively an English-language term? (But, then, this is the English Wikipedia.) —Mahlerlover1^(converse) 01:46, 1 February 2012 (UTC)[reply]

I've never heard of something, obviously it doesn't exist, because I'm soo important. Yet, even without ever having heard of it, I'm apparently qualified to ascertain whether or not it is important. Strange paradox. Now I'm truly puzzled. Hyacinth (talk) 04:52, 1 February 2012 (UTC)[reply]

I checked: It is hardly found through the whole internet at all. I'm one of thousands that studied Hungarian music and found that such thing as Hungarian minor scale was not mentioned at all. If it was an English term for something to do with Hungarian music, it would occur in Hungarian music discussions as well. If it was a notable thing it would have existed outside this wikipedia article. This is why I suggested the term should be explained in an alphabetical or systematic list of miscellaneous music theory terms. Not to just get myself offended by someone I've never seen. Anapazapa (talk) 15:14, 1 October 2012 (UTC)[reply]

Just because its called the Hungarian or Gypsy scale doesn't mean it necessarily has anything to do with Hungary or Gypsy's. See: "Oriental riff" and Stigler's law of eponymy. Hyacinth (talk) 08:33, 2 October 2012 (UTC)[reply]

"In addition to calling this scale the 'Gypsy minor,' many people also refer to it as the 'Hungarian minor'. However, while I lived in Europe...Not one musician I spoke to over there had ever heard of the Hungarian minor scale. So, now I call it by its 'other' name: 'Gypsy minor.'" Hanson, Paul and Stang, Aaron (1996). Shred Guitar, p.114. ISBN 978-1-57623-604-8. Hyacinth (talk) 08:58, 2 October 2012 (UTC)[reply]

I suppose it makes sense. We can now close a file. Anapazapa (talk) 17:41, 2 October 2012 (UTC)[reply]

Rachmaninov's Trio No.1 uses the double harmonic minor scale in F with an omitted d-flat (presumably to avoid the ambiguous tonal center) on measure 150 of the piano part. http://imslp.org/wiki/Trio_%C3%A9l%C3%A9giaque_No.1_in_G_minor_(Rachmaninoff,_Sergei). (Though assuming d-natural it could by the harmonic major scale in C).

To address the original complaint: Hungarian minor is widely discussed on the internet, with over 56000 Google hits, and music theory videos like "How to make music with Hungarian minor" and "What is Hungarian minor?" It definitely exists! John Baez (talk) 04:50, 13 June 2023 (UTC)[reply]

• "The fourth mode of this scale, the 'Phrygian major,'...(Remember: This mode would be the Gypsy minor scale, starting from the 5th step.)" Hanson, Paul and Stang, Aaron (1996). Shred Guitar, p.114. ISBN 978-1-57623-604-8.

The source reads per above. The article currently lists the step pattern for Hungarian minor as "w - h - + - h - h - + - h" and Phrygian dominant scale lists its as "half – augmented – half – whole – half – whole – whole"; which are different (the first contains two augmented seconds while the second contains only one). Hyacinth (talk) 23:46, 24 June 2012 (UTC)[reply]

Yes, they are different. I wouldn't trust that source as an academically rigorous one. — Devin.chaloux (chat) 02:00, 26 June 2012 (UTC)[reply]

The source defines the Phrygian major as having a major, not minor seventh (so it is internally consistent). Hyacinth (talk) 08:59, 2 October 2012 (UTC)[reply]

"It is the fourth mode of the double harmonic scale[links to the article on the double harmonic major scale]". This scale is 2131131. The double harmonic major scale is 1312131. They are not modes of each other - no rotation of the intervals leads to the other.

There are several other seven note pitches that have an axis of symmetry on tone clock, including simple Dorian and fifth mode of jazz minor ( nat 7,9,11,nat 13). These can also be thought of as palindromic, which I prefer since center if mass implies a symmetry that is independent of axis.

Also, what tetrachords are being referred to? There are only seven pitches... what is the common tone in the four note sets? Hansenmaxim (talk) 14:19, 26 November 2019 (UTC)[reply]

Hello,

regarding the topic en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_musical_scales_and_modes

I ask about the name of this very strange scale:

C-Db-E-F#-G-Ab-H-C

i.e.

H-3H-W-H-H-3H-H

(the context is undoubtely "hungarian/gipsy minor scale", but the scale above is very different! with "F natural" we would obtain the flamenco mode). Maybe an ancient scale from the past...

thanks a lot.

best Regards,

Anunasica (talk) 23:15, 9 October 2020 (UTC)[reply]

{{request edit}}

(Closing the {{request edit}} since this isn't an edit request as such, but just a question) – Thjarkur (talk) 16:18, 10 October 2020 (UTC)[reply]

The lede begins by equating the Hungarian minor scale with the Gypsy minor scale, but then further on is the paragraph -

"In Indian classical Carnatic music, Hungarian minor scale corresponds to Simhendramadhyamam, while the Gypsy variant corresponds to Shanmukhapriya."

This appears to be a contradiction, possibly original research. I think the reference to 'Gypsy variant' needs to be taken out as it is unclear what this means. Wokepedian (talk) 01:52, 25 March 2023 (UTC)[reply]

"This scale (and its modes like the double harmonic scale) is the one perfectly balanced seven-note subset of the equally tempered chromatic scale: when its pitches are represented as points in a circle whose full circumference represents an octave, their average position (or "centre of mass") is the centre of the circle. Other examples include the Dorian mode of major and fifth mode of melodic minor."

First it says this scale (and its modes) is the one with some property. Then it says "other examples include..." That sounds contradictory. And I also think the Dorian mode does not have the property that "when its pitches are represented as points in a circle whose full circumference represents an octave, their average position (or "centre of mass") is the centre of the circle." Am confused? If the Dorian mode had this property, so would all its modes, including Ionian, Aeolian, etc. John Baez (talk) 04:43, 13 June 2023 (UTC)[reply]