Trish's Reviews > SPQR: A History of Ancient Rome

SPQR by Mary Beard
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really liked it

SPQR: "The Senate and People of Rome"

Ancient Rome.

Birthplace of so many impressive inventions we take for granted nowadays. We think we know so many things about this place, have heard half-truths or old theories by historians. Mary Beard sifted through all of that to search for the truth (or as close as we can get to it so many thousands of years later) and is here to tell us what really went down.

I must admit that it was interesting to hear of all the weird stuff my buddy-reader had heard about Ancient Rome that I never heard about. Maybe because I read different history books or because there are different things on the European curriculum than the American/Canadian one.
However, the author herself also mentions a few older theories that have been disproven, some "rewritings" of history shortly after certain ancient events (now you know how old PR campaigns are, you're welcome), and had a very nice way to connect all the archaeological/historical bits with their direct influences on modern day life.

Interestingly enough, the book starts this impressive look at Ancient Rome by analyzing how this culture dealt with terrorism. Especially from today's perspective, that was fascinating. We talk, of course, about Catiline and Cicero but it snowballed from there.

From personal hygiene (though slightly modified, thank goodness), to parties, to "bread and games", to certain political expressions (like the Ides of March), to traditions, to architecture and poetry as well as orations and writing styles ... Rome might have fallen but it left behind one hell of a legacy.

And all that after it started out so small and as nothing more than many other places. Yes yes, there is the whole origin myth with the two boys and the she-wolf but come on. Basically, many things were coincidence that turned out to be lucky and eventually you got collosseums, an almost unmatched military power, one hell of a trade empire and so much more.

There are a lot of contradictions to the city, too. The sprawling luxury we know from still impressive ruins compared to the filth of some areas, the technological and cultural advancements compared to the poverty and debauchery, the famous concept of liberty that was lived there like only in few other cultures compared to the exploitation of areas that got assimilated, the concept of democracy compared to autocracy (a struggle that basically defined the Roman Empire).

In short: the author does a wide sweep from the beginning of what we now call Ancient Rome (back when it was just a settlement), to Cicero and his famous orations, to Gaius Julius Caesar being stabbed to death by people who wanted what he had managed to get, Nero who famously put the city to the torch and so many others.

What I love about history is that it is constantly being revised and rewritten as our knowledge expands and the author had a wonderful way of showing how one thing happened, then was turned into something else for someone's benefit, before yet another version ended in our history books that have had to be rewritten since.

However, there is a reason this isn't getting full marks. While the writing style was very amicable, I couldn't always see the red thread or the author's reason for connecting a certain event with another; just like I couldn't always follow her leaps rom one piece of evidence to the next while she was trying to show a domino effect.

A very good book that gives a nice overview by displaying the newest available evidence from a talented author that I'll certainly read more of.

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Reading Progress

July 29, 2016 – Shelved as: to-read
July 29, 2016 – Shelved
September 2, 2019 – Started Reading
September 3, 2019 –
24.0% "The founding myth, Lucrezia's rape, Cicero, Catiline and Rome's humble beginnings have been covered so far. I'm not sure I would have combined certain elements the way the author did and am thus not always sure why she did it this way, but the book reads quite fluently nonetheless and has the atmosphere of an easy and informal conversation with the author.
"
September 9, 2019 –
56.0% "I can't say that I've heard as many different opinions about Rome as my buddy-reader - for me it has, more or less, always been the same schtick - but hearing about the actual characters of some caesars or the actual events that were changed in retrospect as a form of PR, is highly fascinating."
September 10, 2019 –
80.0% "I had no idea the scientific community (historians vs achaeologists, mostly) was so divided when it came to something we know as well as Rome (as opposed to other, lesser known cultures). Especially considering the heavy influences on your modern life that is hard to imagine.
There is one bit of solace though: politicians were as hypocritical then as they are now, it's nothing new. *laughs bitterly*"
September 10, 2019 – Finished Reading

Comments Showing 1-50 of 84 (84 new)


message 1: by Zardoz (new)

Zardoz Ah, The Romans were so full of themselves. Reminds me of the current state of American politics 🤔


Trish Then you're not paying attention. They might have been full of themselves, but they also had reason. They might not have been the only great ancient culture but one of the seriously impressive ones. Moreover, it's far from being an exclusively American thing these days or any days.


Bradley I especially liked how she nicely "debunked" some of the most interesting and colorful histories of the worst emperors. And kinda put a pin in Cicero, too. :) It's a far cry from Gibbons.


Sud666 Nice review. Did you know SPQR stands for Senātus Populusque Rōmānus? The Senate and the People of Rome.


Trish Sud666 wrote: "Nice review. Did you know SPQR stands for Senātus Populusque Rōmānus? The Senate and the People of Rome."

Uhm ... see the first line of my review?


Trish Bradley wrote: "I especially liked how she nicely "debunked" some of the most interesting and colorful histories of the worst emperors. And kinda put a pin in Cicero, too. :) It's a far cry from Gibbons."

I never really liked Cicero much anyway. *lol* But that was one thing I had already heard that I was surprised you hadn't, actually. People tend to see things only in black or white but people never are only horrible monsters or only perfect heroes.


Bradley I did get that impression from Gibbons, too, but he gave due diligence to the glorious stories. Who doesn't love a good legend? I admit I like outrageous lies. :)


Trish I don't. As you know.


Bradley Correction. I like outrageous lies when I KNOW them to be outrageous lies.

Like that Trump is actually Homelander.


message 10: by Emma (new) - rated it 5 stars

Emma One of the things I''m loving about this book is how she really interrogates the sources. Most of the time this is strangely absent in popular history but it's so important to give readers a sense of what historians are doing with the evidence they have. And especially whether the sources are enough to support various arguments.


Trish Yes, I liked that sort of detectives work of hers, too.


Sud666 Trish wrote: "Sud666 wrote: "Nice review. Did you know SPQR stands for Senātus Populusque Rōmānus? The Senate and the People of Rome."

Uhm ... see the first line of my review?"


*wails* It wasn't in Latin :(****
Also as far as liking outrageous lies *lol* remember the kind words of Julius Caesar (noted humanitarian and environmental activist) : " What we wish, we readily believe, and what we ourselves think, we imagine others think also."

um what have you got against Cicero? I mean he was a preening attorney, really more of an orator at this time, but he did have a substantial impact upon the Latin language. and culture. He introduced Romans to the major philosophies of Greece, as well as adding new vocabulary words to Latin to describe philosophical ideas such as evidentia, humanitas, qualitas, quantitas, and essentia. Also remember it was Petrach in the 14th-century Renaissance who translated Cicero's letters and stimulated the increased interest in public affairs, humanism, and classical Roman culture. Also, later on during the 18th Century Enlightenment, he is credited with influencing major Western poltical thinkers such as Edmund Burke, John Locke, and Montisquieu to name a few. Just saying.

Cicero the poltician? *l* Way outclassed in terms of ruthlessness and the use of power by both Julius and Octavian.


Trish Yes, but that doesn't mean Cicero was a shining figure and Catiline the big bad terrorist. Also, considering some of his writings, I do think Cicero was a little too full of himself, even considering his place of residence and times and the fact that he was an attorney. ;)


Sud666 An attorney full of himself? Lol I shocked..just shocked


Trish I know, it came as a surprise to me too!


Sud666 When was the last time you were in Rome? Or have you ever been?


Trish I have been, yes. Once. Back in September 2004.


message 18: by Paul (new)

Paul I retweeted about a Roman Fort that is just down the road from me today. You'll like it, I think


Trish Oh cool! I need to check that out asap!


Sud666 Trish wrote: "I have been, yes. Once. Back in September 2004."

Ahhh..well I do need to go back myself as well. Also its cooler after reading a massive series like Masters of Rome..helps with the "old lay of the the land"


Trish I also enjoyed the Gordianus series (basically a series of legal affairs that nicely illustrate the socio-political status quo as well as some "interesting times" during different eras). It is a different experience if you have been or are currently there. :)
And yes, I wanna go back eventually. And when I do, I wanna get a tour through the Colosseum (there are certain areas you're only allowed to with a tour guide) as well as Pompeij.


Sud666 Gordianus eh? I'm going to be "Romed" out after 6x 800+ pages worth of a history of the fall of the republic, but eventually I'll drift back. The old maps in the Masters series are quite helpful for "location", few cities can match Rome's history and I've been to most save Beijing....but, IF, I can knock out the Scandinivaians this year and Spain/Portugal in 2022..I'd like to do something with Rome-Milan and Venice


Sud666 BTW my issue with MB, is her seeming confused about the "why" of Roman expansion. Yes, indeed, it was haphazard..but it is rather obviously based on the threat of Barbarian invasions- from Carthagianinas to Germans and THAT WAS a huge driving force for a variety of changes from the Marian reforms, Land reforms, to taking over strategic areas..which lead to Empire


Trish Well, Venice, nowadays, is better (less stinky) but still disappointing to a history nut like me after having been to Rome. So make sure to go to Milan first, then to Venice and then to Rome. ;)

I've decided that I might go to the US in 2022. Either Hawaii since you won't shut up about it or one or two National Parks on mainland US (I've already been to Yellowstone but would gladly go back and hear only great things about Yosemite). Now I just need to talk my sister into going with me before she has kids and is tied down (also, going alone wouldn't be as much fun).


Trish Sud666 wrote: "BTW my issue with MB, is her seeming confused about the "why" of Roman expansion. Yes, indeed, it was haphazard..but it is rather obviously based on the threat of Barbarian invasions- from Carthagi..."

I think she was influenced by debates from the past few years. Many historians seem to no longer be sure that was indeed THE driving factor(s). I, personally, think it was, but I'm no historian.


message 26: by Sud666 (last edited Jan 15, 2021 09:24AM) (new) - rated it 3 stars

Sud666 Trish wrote: "Sud666 wrote: "BTW my issue with MB, is her seeming confused about the "why" of Roman expansion. Yes, indeed, it was haphazard..but it is rather obviously based on the threat of Barbarian invasions..."

Thus the issues with "historians" from inferior academic programs *rolls eyes* SMH. I am hardly enamored with the current Leftist crop of academics and find many of their conclusions tinged by their pernicious ideology (ever read "history" from a Nazi academic? Same thing)..they can "believe" what they like..but the preponderance of literature from the leading minds of the period all point to an overwhelming fear, starting from 387 BC when the warlord Brennus of the Gallic Celts sacked Rome in an orgy of violence (hence Rome's moves into Gaul later on); hell that is where the term "Vae Victus" ("Woe to the Vanquished!”) comes from and even in the time of Julius Caesar it was considered a cursed day (July 18 to be exact).
Then you have Hannibal terrifying the Romans in 218 BC (hence expansion into Carthage)
Then you have the Jugurthine Wars, where the Numidians wrecked a Roman Legion and killed a lot of Roman settlers, of 112-106 BC (thus Roman presence in Numidia);
then you have the Cimbri and the Teutons, Ambrones and Tigurini, who migrated from the Jutland peninsula into Roman controlled territory, and clashed with Rome in the Cimbrian War 113-101 BC and that was also terrifying as a horde of Germans *stares at Trish* descended on Italy.....this led to the Marian reforms (that had a huge impact on the Army's relationship with the Senate versus personal loyalty to the General)...ummm that's just a short list off the top of my head. So yeah there will always be some "white noise" about other interpretations but let's not drown out the true meanings for large events.


message 27: by Trish (last edited Jan 15, 2021 09:38AM) (new) - rated it 4 stars

Trish Well, to be fair, Harvard has a scientist who thinks he's seen an aliens atellite. *coughs politely* Did you give him weed of bad quality? ;P

But I know what you mean. I'm not buying the new version of certain theories either and for the exact same reason: literature form the times we're talking about.
Fun fact: I both know what vae victus means AND which day you were talking about. I might not be a historian, but I'm not dumb either. ;)


Trish Sud666 wrote: "as a horde of Germans *stares at Trish* descended on Italy"

They had it coming. ;P


Sud666 Trish wrote: "Well, to be fair, Harvard has a scientist who thinks he's seen an aliens atellite. *coughs politely* Did you give him weed of bad quality? ;P

But I know what you mean. I'm not buying the new versi..."


Harvard has a scientist who thinks he's seen an aliens atellite. *coughs politely*

Umm honestly? I'm not sure about aliens...there is all sorts of weird stuff locked away (since it's not my aspect of Intel I have little to no experience with it) with Air Force about that shit. Now um mathematics implies that there should be life out there... i guess it's between the opposite ends of the Fermi Paradox :
There are billions of stars in the Milky Way similar to the Sun.
With high probability, some of these stars have Earth-like planets.
Many of these stars, and hence their planets, are much older than the Sun. If the Earth is typical, some may have developed intelligent life long ago.
Some of these civilizations may have developed interstellar travel, a step humans are investigating now.
Even at the slow pace of currently envisioned interstellar travel, the Milky Way galaxy could be completely traversed in a few million years. And since many of the stars similar to the Sun are billions of years older, the Earth should have already been visited by extraterrestrial civilizations, or at least their probes. However, there is no convincing evidence that this has happened.

Then there is the Drake Equation that stipulates, from the other end of the spectrum, that:
The Drake equation is:

N = R ∗ ⋅ f p ⋅ n e ⋅ f 1 ⋅ f i ⋅ f c ⋅ L
where:
N = the number of civilizations in our galaxy with which communication might be possible (i.e. which are on our current past light cone);

and

R∗ = the average rate of star formation in our galaxy
fp = the fraction of those stars that have planets
ne = the average number of planets that can potentially support life per star that has planets
f1 = the fraction of planets that could support life that actually develop life at some point
fi = the fraction of planets with life that actually go on to develop intelligent life (civilizations)
fc = the fraction of civilizations that develop a technology that releases detectable signs of their existence into space
L = the length of time for which such civilizations release detectable signals into space

But the problem is with the last part of the equation- as this relies on the factors affecting the likelihood that we might detect radio-communication from intelligent extraterrestrial life. The last four parameters, fl, fi, fc, and L, are not known and are very difficult to estimate, with values ranging over many orders of magnitude. the usefulness of the Drake equation is not in the solving, but rather in the contemplation of all the various concepts which scientists must incorporate when considering the question of life elsewhere, and gives the question of life elsewhere a basis for scientific analysis. The equation has helped draw attention to some particular scientific problems related to life in the universe, for example abiogenesis, the development of multi-cellular life, and the development of intelligence itself.

So jury is still out on this one and I know enough about my academic background to confidently say this is out of my water :)


Sud666 Trish wrote: "Well, to be fair, Harvard has a scientist who thinks he's seen an aliens atellite. *coughs politely* Did you give him weed of bad quality? ;P

But I know what you mean. I'm not buying the new versi..."


"I might not be a historian, but I'm not dumb either. ;)"

Never said you were dumb, just cruel and unfeeling. Cheesecake?


message 31: by Trish (last edited Jan 15, 2021 09:52AM) (new) - rated it 4 stars

Trish Oh, I have no doubt that we aren't the only life out here in the universe. It#s indeed a probability game (and how arrogant is it to think only we could be developed life in the universe?). I just thought it hilarious that he is apparently convinced to have seen evidence of an alien satellite. *lol*


Trish Sud666 wrote: "Never said you were dumb, just cruel and unfeeling. "

T'is true. No. *grins*


Sud666 Trish wrote: "Oh, I have no doubt that we aren't the only life out here in the universe. It#s indeed a probability game (and how arrogant is it to think only we could be developed life in the universe?). I just ..."

umm God? *lol*


Sud666 Trish wrote: "Sud666 wrote: "Never said you were dumb, just cruel and unfeeling. "

T'is true. No. *grins*"


*sighs in despondency* :(**


Bradley Still waiting for intelligent life HERE tho.


Sud666 Bradley wrote: "Still waiting for intelligent life HERE tho."

*lol* You have a LONG wait ahead bud


Trish Yeah, I think we can pretty much give up on that right now.


Sud666 Trish wrote: "Yeah, I think we can pretty much give up on that right now."

The only good life, worth preserving and nurturing, is not human but animals.


Sud666 Trish wrote: ""

*lol* I'm going to make sure Faust does NOT see that


Trish *secretly shows Faust that pic*


Sud666 If this were Rome I'd have you fed to the lions :(*


Trish Well, you'd try. I'd probably end up sitting there in the sands and cuddling with them. Animals love me, especially cats. Ask Faust. ;)


Sud666 *glares* animals love ME..its cuz I'm small, gentle and harmless like they are :(*


Trish Uh-huh. Suuuure.


Sud666 Trish wrote: "Uh-huh. Suuuure."

um do you have a snake or something I could ask to bite you?


Trish Sud666 wrote: "Trish wrote: "Uh-huh. Suuuure."

um do you have a snake or something I could ask to bite you?"


Sadly, no. You could ask some owls or hawks to peck my eyes out the next time I get to take them on a hike (it's currently forbidden) but I doubt they'd do it as they all love me. I have photographic proof.


Jen - The Tolkien Gal Thanks for this lovely summary! My copy of SPQR has been collecting dust on the shelf for too long!


Trish Jen/The Tolkien Gal/ジェニファー wrote: "Thanks for this lovely summary! My copy of SPQR has been collecting dust on the shelf for too long!"

Tsk tsk tsk. Shame on you! ;P


Sud666 Trish wrote: "Sud666 wrote: "Trish wrote: "Uh-huh. Suuuure."

um do you have a snake or something I could ask to bite you?"

Sadly, no. You could ask some owls or hawks to peck my eyes out the next time I get to..."


owls and hawks are cool they don't attack humans unless humans did something. The only people that will peck your eyes out are well..umm..people :(*


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