Wikipedia talk:WikiProject Women in Red/Archive 106

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Hi. I've finished my page on Judy Irola. This means it'll come under November's Women:Film+Stage as well as taking a name off the redlist for December's Women who died in 2021. Please could someone review and move into the mainspace if it looks good to go?

(It's also given me a list of women cinematographers who are members of the American Society of Cinematographers that we could make sure are all on wikipedia.)EEHalli (talk) 18:37, 26 November 2021 (UTC)

The article is well-written, but the sourcing is a bit thin. These should help:

• Cine Manifest Review by Emily Condon
• Four films share top two honors at Sundance
• 'Working Girls' droll tale of a brothel
• Sex is messy stuff in 'Working Girls'
• A homespun movie tells of struggles in North Dakota
• Winter of their discontent
• Ambitious 'Northern Lights' is a compelling slice of history
• The Mexican's Turn To Remember The Alamo (Included because of the Camera d'Or award mention)
• Bargain-basement film has powerful moments
• In the movie credits - the name of ex-Fresnan Irola (Continued on Page F5 and again on Page F11)
• 'Northern Lights' shuns art, takes up a cause

I hope those prove sufficient. Silverseren^C 19:14, 26 November 2021 (UTC)

Thank you Silver seren. I've added those in as inline citations to help strengthen the claim of notability.EEHalli (talk) 20:57, 26 November 2021 (UTC)

Hey EEHalli i took a look too - looks nice! There's one bit where I've put ^{[citation needed]} where it would be good to add a reference. Lajmmoore (talk) 22:15, 26 November 2021 (UTC)

Thanks, Lajmmoore. I've added that citation - I suspect it was missing because the first draft was all from the ASC obit and then as I added from other sources that sentence got divorced from its citation. EEHalli (talk) 17:30, 27 November 2021 (UTC)

I fixed the expanded name of NABET so it can wikilink now - I see how you had it is how the source had it, which is weird, but I'm confident they're the same union. Also cleared up some of the language about local unions. This time, your source had it right. -- asilvering (talk) 23:33, 26 November 2021 (UTC)

Thanks Asilvering. US unions have different terminology to UK ones so I knew that bit was shaky - having someone who knows more is really helpful!EEHalli (talk) 17:30, 27 November 2021 (UTC)

Yeah, it's certainly not very clear language. I think speaking out loud someone might even say "the local IATSE local", which comes off as obvious nonsense in text. -- asilvering (talk) 17:52, 27 November 2021 (UTC)

Thank you to everyone for your additional input, including sources and improvements. I've just made enough edits to be able to move to mainspace myself so I've done it! My first move to mainspace! EEHalli (talk) 17:44, 27 November 2021 (UTC)

Intrigued by Nick Number's 2 finds, discovered during research for May Isabel Fisk (on whom see above), I've been wondering whether to create Ivy de Verley. My searches led me to start Wikipedia:Articles for deletion/Vesey Alfred Davoren, because I don't think her husband is notable; one suggestion was to split off Vesey_Alfred_Davoren#Wife into a new article. There are sourcing problems with that section, though, such that a straight-up WP:SPLIT would be inappropriate.

As for sourcing on Ivy (alias "Madame de Verley", "Mrs Vesey Davoren", "Mrs Vesey O'Davoren"), NN's article remains the best. Besides that I have 32ff, which looks OK but not actually that informative; pretty good but a very small local paper, brief mention, and not great. There is a Who's Who in Art entry which has some basic details. My trepidation is due to the fact that most coverage seems thin on biography and thick on crypto-orientalism ("ooh, look at this exotic painter born in the West Indies with a strange accent"), such that I would be uncomfortable basing an article on them. I think we're OK on notability; I'm more concerned about WP:V. AleatoryPonderings (???) (!!!) 14:52, 27 November 2021 (UTC)

Plenty of information over time and apparently she developed a unique method of working with pastels?

Flossie Ivy Louise Verley, age 26, 1st marriage, which is also shown in one of the clippings,[1]born 27 July 1879 to Eliza Jane (née Lazerous) and Louis Francis Verley. died 29 December 1963 in LA. 1st husband died 1907. Married 2nd husband 1916. More: 1915, 1919, 1920, 1922, 1932, 1935, 1936,1939-Flossie Verley

Looks like I need to request access to Newspaper Archive ……… AleatoryPonderings (???) (!!!) 16:40, 27 November 2021 (UTC)

Yes, it doesn't have as many papers as newspapers.com, but it has the Gleaner, probably the biggest newspaper in Jamaica, which also covers stuff throughout the Caribbean, thus, why I have it. SusunW (talk) 17:07, 27 November 2021 (UTC)

See Draft:Ivy de Verley. I will be adding to it in bits and pieces for the next while. I would like to be more clear on the provenance of File:Ivy de Verley 1916.jpg as I don't know what "Sammlung Fane de Salis" means. AleatoryPonderings (???) (!!!) 17:53, 27 November 2021 (UTC)

Sammlung means collection, Fane de Salis is a family, i.e. [2] SusunW (talk) 18:42, 27 November 2021 (UTC)

@AleatoryPonderings "Sammlung" is German for "collection", so I assume this is "The collection of (firstname) Fane de Salis". Which, interestingly enough, brings me here (you may recognize the username), suggesting to me that this is a private collection held by a wikipedian's family, not something that is generally available to the public by other means. The National Library of Australia does have a de Salis Collection, though. -- asilvering (talk) 18:47, 27 November 2021 (UTC)

Looking through that commons collection more closely, I've changed my mind: this appears to be the scans and photos taken by a single wikipedian, not held by that wikipedian (or his family). So you'd have to ask him where he got it from; it almost certainly does not come from anything called the "Fane de Salis Collection". It might be from an archives (if so, hopefully they allow visitors to upload photos for free use, but this would be unusual!), it might be in the possession of this particular user, or it could be from some other place entirely. -- asilvering (talk) 19:01, 27 November 2021 (UTC)

Ugh. We have 341 images with completely unclear provenance. These look very old but there is no guarantee whatsoever. AleatoryPonderings (???) (!!!) 19:11, 27 November 2021 (UTC)

Yep. And "old" doesn't mean "is what the current metadata says it is" either. Unfortunately, given the current circumstances I'm not sure he'll be particularly happy to help. -- asilvering (talk) 19:17, 27 November 2021 (UTC)

1922 photo. Non-US works published abroad, for which I can find no US publication of in that year should be eligible for {{PD-US-expired}}. Obviously not as good as the painting and maybe someone has the skills to clean it up? SusunW (talk) 19:33, 27 November 2021 (UTC)

Major Spanish writer Almudena Grandes has just died and would make a very worthy ITNRD candidate should anyone have the bandwidth (the current state of the entry is … not great.) Innisfree987 (talk) 21:56, 27 November 2021 (UTC)

Do you think it's harder to find enough references for women than for similar men?

• Every study I have looked at (film, newspapers, history books, their biographies, films, novels, mentions of women's sport) states that women make up only 10 to 30 %.
• Australian cricket has a fine example.
• There are also career biases such as in film(where women have far shorter careers, and often only one starring role).
• Marriage name also presents an issue (nuptial change, Mr% Mrs John Smith, Mrs John Smith-Chen, Mr, John Smith and Wife, or even Mr.Smith)?

Are there any other special difficulties? Are magazines with women audiences not considered reliable or are case by case?

---

{[Gender_bias_on_Wikipedia]] Reference 13 Young, Amber; Wigdor, Ariel; Kane, Gerald (2020). "The Gender Bias Tug-of-War in a Co-creation Community: Core-Periphery Tension on Wikipedia". Journal of Management Information Systems. 37 (4): 1047–1072. doi:10.1080/07421222.2020.1831773. S2CID 227240954.. Journal of Management Information Systems. 37 (4): 1047–1072. doi:10.1080/07421222.2020.1831773. S2CID 227240954. "Though early research found evidence of bias against women on Wikipedia, more recent research has found a minimal amount of evidence of gender bias, and we find evidence of bias against men. [...] While the peripheral contributors, who do most of the editing on Wikipedia, initially "won" the gender bias tug-of-war, as evidenced by early reports of gender bias on Wikipedia, efforts by the core [contributors] to return to a state of neutrality pushed the community away from bias against women. Over time, central contributors have overcorrected to the point where bias against men is becoming an issue.""

• full article is paywall but available at https://wikipedialibrary.wmflabs.org/users/my_library/

"The bias is "Prior research comparing multiple measures of content bias found that the number of words in an article, though a simple measure, is an accurate predictor of content bias 7. We use words per sentence to quantify content bias. Medium and small effects show that male profiles contain shorter sentences than female profiles, suggesting that content bias is disadvantageous to male CEOs." Wakelamp d[@-@]b (talk) 11:35, 24 November 2021 (UTC)

• Thanks for bringing this up, Wakelamp. There will no doubt be a number of reactions. For starters, I suggest you read some of the items at Wikipedia:WikiProject Women in Red/Research and Wikipedia:WikiProject Women in Red/Press.--Ipigott (talk) 16:07, 24 November 2021 (UTC)

Having taken some of the first women's study courses offered and haven written women's history for decades, it is obvious that women's sources are different. Women are covered less by academia and their experiences are not integrated into basic historic studies (women's history must be taken as separate curricula) and the media (when women are covered, they are often covered more trivially, i.e. what they were wearing, how they looked, who they were with, their relationships, etc.) One article may suffice to state the notability of a male subject, but that is often not the case for a woman. Bottom line, Wikipedia reflects society, because we use secondary sourcing created by these types of media. So yes, finding adequate sourcing is more difficult for women and typically requires more citations to weed through the chaff. Simultaneously because more sources are needed to be able to write a fairly complete woman's biography, one would logically expect more comprehensive detail.

As for bias against men, that falls on the shoulders of those writing men's bios. If they fail to do an adequate job of researching and writing, then those articles are lacking depth. Bias exists in many forms and of course, one of those is a lack of desire (the article calls it "Selection Bias") to work on certain topics. (Personally, I try to avoid BLPs, as there are privacy issues, etc.) We combat bias by focusing on providing the best information we can in as neutral a fashion as the sourcing will allow about whatever our subject is. Quality, not quantity, is our best means of creating a neutral encyclopedia. But that being said, it will always be a mirror of society, thus "bias-free" is impossible. SusunW (talk) 15:20, 25 November 2021 (UTC)

Okay, but... there are still way, way more articles about men, right? And there are many more male CEOs etc? This is surely just a result of how there are loads more useless stubs on men on Wikipedia. Help rectify this unfair gender bias by AfDing articles on non-notable men! :) -- asilvering (talk) 15:56, 25 November 2021 (UTC)

Asilvering, true, but back to that "Selection Bias", AfD is a time sink and often filled with drama. I'd rather spend the time and energy I have writing women and their works back into history. SusunW (talk) 21:08, 25 November 2021 (UTC)

Help rectify this unfair gender bias by AfDing articles on non-notable men! :)

My time to shine! JoelleJay (talk) 00:59, 26 November 2021 (UTC)

JoelleJay The obvious low-hanging fruit of such an effort ought to be the thousands of athlete permastubs, but getting past the defenders of the sport SNG is a Sisyphean task - a timesink just not worth the effort. Roger (Dodger67) (talk) 07:06, 28 November 2021 (UTC)

The last few months I've noticed an uptick in participation from people who actually understand NSPORT's relationship with GNG, as well as closers who explicitly distinguish between PAG-based arguments and useless cookie-cutter !votes, so I think the climate is improving. We've also made some progress tightening the various sport-specific guidelines to be better predictors of GNG so there are fewer articles the hard-line athlete fans can even defend from an NSPORT perspective. JoelleJay (talk) 07:13, 28 November 2021 (UTC)

I've made a draft about a woman runner and social media personality named Erin Azar/Mrs. Space Cadet. Feedback is appreciated! Draft:Mrs. Space Cadet wizzito | say hello! 00:00, 28 November 2021 (UTC)

I've moved it to mainspace now. wizzito | say hello! 00:51, 28 November 2021 (UTC)

• @Wizzito: Please remember never to give anyone's age directly in an article: that child who was 7 when a source was written on 2 Nov could already have had another birthday. I've future-proofed it using a template. PamD 06:32, 28 November 2021 (UTC)
• Alright, thank you! I was unaware. PamD wizzito | say hello! 07:13, 28 November 2021 (UTC)

I was looking for Timeline of women's sports in the United States. I recalled it was discussed at Wikipedia talk:WikiProject Women in Red/Archive 91#Timelines of women's history deleted -- need help with rewrites. Four of the five timelines were restored and this is the last one that needs work to restore. Whizz40 (talk) 10:05, 29 November 2021 (UTC)

There's been an AfD and now there's a deletion review for Monisha Shah (history), member of UK's Committee on Standards in Public Life, formerly a trustee of Tate, and on the board of the National Gallery. The AfD found she was not notable. --Tagishsimon (talk) 16:55, 29 November 2021 (UTC)

Those of you who read our Ideas page may have noticed that we have chosen Climate as our year-long initiative for 2022. It was thought that keeping to just one word would sharpen our focus but we are of course open to covering the variety of interest expressed in our Climate and environment meetup last January. There we included Wikidata redlists on Climatologists, Earth scientists, Environmentalists and Ecologists but it seems to me it would be useful if we began to develop a crowd-sourced redlist of women from around the world who deserve biographies. It has been suggested that we could cover Green Party politicians, those working on sustainability, farmers bent on reducing carbon emissions, those working on fighting climate impact in Africa and low-lying islands, etc., etc. Does anyone feel like starting a list? I would be happy to collaborate but I think others might have useful suggestions.--Ipigott (talk) 13:04, 5 November 2021 (UTC)

Ipigott I started (an extremely sparse one) here User:Lajmmoore/sandbox/Climate - Women in Red - happy for it to be more widely adopted! Lajmmoore (talk) 14:01, 5 November 2021 (UTC)

Lajmmoore: Good to see you've made a start. I've put together a few names at User:Ipigott/climate women redlist. Feel free to add them if you think they're worthwhile.--Ipigott (talk) 14:40, 5 November 2021 (UTC)

Lajmmoore: I've now managed to find 26 women who seem at first sight to be worthy of articles but I have not looked for supporting articles. Perhaps you can just include them and others can check them out. Finished for today.--Ipigott (talk) 15:42, 5 November 2021 (UTC)

As Penny added a few, I thought it might be easier if I just included mine too. The presentation could probably be improved but at least they are all there.--Ipigott (talk) 15:54, 5 November 2021 (UTC)

Hello Rosiestep, Phoebe, Sadads, Scann, Femkemilene, WomenArtistUpdates, Oronsay & Innisfree987, thanks so much for supporting this on the Ideas page - we've started a crowd-sourced list here User:Lajmmoore/sandbox/Climate - Women in Red, so if you have any ideas for lists to add from other projects, or awards, or off-wiki lists, that we could plunder to compliment the Wikidata lists, that would be very much appreciated. Lajmmoore (talk) 08:34, 10 November 2021 (UTC)

Thanks for all the additional work you've done on this, Lajmmoore. It's now beginning to look really useful. If you would like to add a suitable header, it could perhaps already be moved to Wikipedia:WikiProject Women in Red/Climate (cf. Wikipedia:WikiProject Women in Red/Disability) where it will be easier to find. There is also a long provisional list of those participating at COP26, to be updated on 12 November. I don't know how many of them can be associated with climate, but it might be worthwhile looking into a few of the names of women.--Ipigott (talk) 11:54, 10 November 2021 (UTC)

Oh brilliant Ipigott - I had looked for, but not found, a long-list. Looking forward to its update. Also, I've moved the page now - I think the awards will be a pretty fruitful way of finding more names. Lajmmoore (talk) 13:15, 10 November 2021 (UTC)

@Lajmmoore and Ipigott: The crowd-sourced list is developing very nicely! Thank you for taking the initiative to create it. At some point, I'd recommend seeking feedback from other EN.WP WikiProjects (e.g., WikiProject Environment; WikiProject Climate change) and/or Wikimedians for Sustainable Development. Added benefit: working with partners such as these might lead to increasing WiR membership. --Rosiestep (talk) 19:28, 10 November 2021 (UTC)

Yes, Rosie, we'll certainly need to liaise with these towards the end of the year. As for now, it's interesting to see that thanks to Camelia.boban, there's an international event for the whole of December on Women in Climate Change. They mention a few books on their page but have not yet developed a redlist. They are of course welcome to link to ours.--Ipigott (talk) 10:03, 11 November 2021 (UTC)

December 2021 and January 2022 ;-) --Camelia (talk) 18:05, 12 November 2021 (UTC)

Lajmmoore: As Camelia has provided a link to this item, it seems to me as if it would be useful to create a preliminary meetup page on the 2022 climate initiative itself. Would you and/or Innisfree987 be interested in putting something together? We could then use it in attracting interest from other wikiprojects, etc., as well as on the social networks. At this stage, it could be just a brief introduction, perhaps with our evolving redlinks. Would you agree to this, Rosiestep?--Ipigott (talk) 16:39, 11 November 2021 (UTC)

@Ipigott, Lajmmoore, and Innisfree987: Yes, creating something along the lines of this year's initiative (Wikipedia:WikiProject Women in Red/Meetup/188) would make sense. What about numbering? Should it take on the next one (e.g., #214) or a later number, taking into account that December will have some events, too? --Rosiestep (talk) 17:00, 11 November 2021 (UTC)

I’ll be happy to help but it may be a few days before I get to it. I had the same Q about numbering but maybe it’s ok either way? Innisfree987 (talk) 17:08, 11 November 2021 (UTC)

Let's just take #214. First come, first serve(d)!--Ipigott (talk) 18:13, 11 November 2021 (UTC)

There was a great supplement to the journal Oceanography, with info on a load of women oceanographers whom I've added to the page. I'm also going through the page and adding people to wikidata if they're not there already. Dsp13 (talk) 00:55, 30 November 2021 (UTC)

hello Innisfree987, Ipigott, Rosiestep I've started one here Wikipedia:WikiProject Women in Red/Meetup/214, but it needs a template, (likely) copy editing, (likely) adjusting of the WD lists. Questions:

1. I wondered if as well as our template, we should encourage people to add the WP Climate Change one if there is one too?

2. Would someone be able to help build a query for members of Green Parties? I've been trying but not getting very far with the code. There's green parties in lots of countries, and I got stuck on how to add multiple parties to a query?

3. Ditto for vegans/vegetarians. I couldn't work out what the P value would be?! Or, there is the basis of a CS list, based on Wikipedia:WikiProject_Veganism_and_Vegetarianism#Veg_Persons (thanks friends) - but then I wondered if it should stand alone, or be a sub-section of the Food & Drink list?

4. Camelia.boban It's great you've started the December challenge - thanks so much! Lajmmoore (talk) 16:38, 12 November 2021 (UTC)

• Thanks very much, Lajmmoore. Great start. I'll have a careful look at it tomorrow. I think we should refer to their Climate Change initiative on meta but I don't think we need to include their template at this stage. Last year, they only created 12 new articles (mainly in Italian, if I remember correctly) and all of them already existed on the EN wiki. Let's see first of all how things develop for them in December. As for the Green Parties and vegans, I think a good start would be the lists for COP26. If you use the search box for "vegan" on this listing, you'll see there are six names; for "Green Party", there are three. More on this tomorrow.--Ipigott (talk) 16:59, 12 November 2021 (UTC)
• @Lajmmoore, thank you so much for setting up the page! I did a copy edit and added a color scheme to match the photo and theme generally although we can definitely change/adjust it if anyone doesn’t love it. I’ll try to look at the red lists when I next get a chance! Innisfree987 (talk) 18:03, 12 November 2021 (UTC)

• Great colour scheme. I've worked a bit on the meetup page and created a redirect for easier reference at Wikipedia:WIR 2022 Climate initiative. Please let me know if there's anything else I can help with.--Ipigott (talk) 17:22, 13 November 2021 (UTC)

• In addition to Women in Climate Change on Meta, there is also Wikipedia:WikiProject Climate change. Perhaps that was the Talk page template that Lajmmoore was referring to in #1 of this discussion? Should we be adding that tag to the "Add to article talk pages" list?--Oronsay (talk) 17:35, 27 November 2021 (UTC)

Yes Oronsay that is what I meant! Lajmmoore (talk) 20:10, 27 November 2021 (UTC)

I created a draft for Loretta Barrett Oden, a Native American chef who has made a substantial contribution to the promotion of indigenous American food. Any help would be appreciated! Thriley (talk) 01:17, 25 November 2021 (UTC)

I added a few facts and some citations. Will continue to look... Netherzone (talk) 03:58, 25 November 2021 (UTC)

I moved this to mainspace. Great work! TJMSmith (talk) 16:39, 27 November 2021 (UTC)

Thank you both!! Thriley (talk) 06:34, 30 November 2021 (UTC)

One of the current Did You Know hooks is about The Oxford Illustrated History of Medieval Europe. I saw one of the contributors to that book is Rosemary Morris. I started a draft for her. It appears she is an independent scholar so there isn’t as much information on her. Any help with finding sourcing would be appreciated! Thank you, Thriley (talk) 06:38, 30 November 2021 (UTC)

She has many reviews of her books on JSTOR. I think she passes WP:AUTHOR, at least. Also, a publisher page for a new book coauthored by her [3] says that she is not really an independent scholar: she "teaches at the University of York and is a former Reader in History at the University of Manchester". —David Eppstein (talk) 08:49, 30 November 2021 (UTC)

Her LinkedIn page shows 29 years as lecturer and reader at Manchester, and has info about her education: I think it's a RS for such info. There might be a pre_2003 Manchester staff page archived ... but probably too early, sadly. PamD 12:13, 30 November 2021 (UTC)

Already a red link in Runciman Award and a potential author-link in several articles ... but not to be confused with UK historical novelist of same name (I bet they've both had misidentification problems over the years). PamD 12:19, 30 November 2021 (UTC)

I am once again asking for reliable, published sources on birth and death dates. FamilySearch has birth date 18 October 1869, with which WikiTree concurs. WikiTree says she died on 17 October 1940 somewhere in England. I can't find an obit anywhere, which is surprising since she got a lot of news coverage. AleatoryPonderings (???) (!!!) 15:59, 30 November 2021 (UTC)

AleatoryPonderings [4] SusunW (talk) 16:28, 30 November 2021 (UTC)

I found her birth record in the Ancestry collection Ontario, Canada Births, 1832-1915 but I can't access it as I don't have the World Explorer upgrade. Gamaliel (talk) 16:55, 30 November 2021 (UTC)

AleatoryPonderings I cannot seem to access my Ancestry account. The Ontario Ministry of Government and Consumer Services says they have released information on births from 1830-1912 to Family Search. On your link to the film, Huron County begins on image 163 and I found Lydia Kingsmill Commander's registration 002872 at image 174. SusunW (talk) 18:17, 30 November 2021 (UTC)

Added. We'll see if it's reverted. AleatoryPonderings (???) (!!!) 18:32, 30 November 2021 (UTC)

Please could someone do a review on User:EEHalli/Cynthia Pusheck? It's my first biog of a living person so I want to make sure I'm on solid ground before moving it to mainspace.

I found a list of all the female members of the American Society of Cinematographers whilst creating Judy Irola so I've started working through it. EEHalli (talk) 12:35, 30 November 2021 (UTC)

Looks good to me :) Dsp13 (talk) 12:53, 30 November 2021 (UTC)

Generally well presented and adequately sourced. Made a few copy edits. From the source given, she "co-founded" the Vision Committee. Co-chairing comes in https://www.icfcfilm.com/user/cpusheck/. This should also be mentioned in the article itself. Minor points but maybe you can take care of them before moving the article to mainspace.--Ipigott (talk) 15:20, 30 November 2021 (UTC)

Thanks all. Made those tweaks and moved to mainspace so it can count towards November's Film+TV stats. EEHalli (talk) 19:07, 30 November 2021 (UTC)

If anyone is looking for a new bio to start, the French poet Cécile Sauvage doesn't have an article on the English WP. Here's a French WP article [5] and some sources [6] [7] [8]. She was the mother of composer Olivier Messiaen; Simone de Beauvoir supposably lauded her writing. Aza24 (talk) 01:35, 1 December 2021 (UTC)

A little research on Bertha von Hillern led me to this page on women endurance walkers of the 19th century. Seems like a fascinating topic, but not really in my wheelhouse. Still, here's a list of names in case anyone would like to tackle one or two of them:

• May Marshall
• Exilda La Chapelle
• Fannie Edwards
• Bertha Von Berg
• Amy Howard

We do have an article on pedestrianism. --Ser Amantio di Nicolao^{Che dicono a Signa?}_{Lo dicono a Signa.} 16:11, 1 December 2021 (UTC)

Nice profile of WIR member User:Ambrosia10, on the Internet Archive blog. —David Eppstein (talk) 18:07, 1 December 2021 (UTC)

Indeed. Among all her more technical additions, her creations include quite a number of detailed women's biographies.--Ipigott (talk) 19:56, 1 December 2021 (UTC)

I saw that a draft was created for French actress Agathe Rousselle, the star of the film Titane (film) which won the Palme d'Or. Any help would be wonderful. Thank you, Thriley (talk) 20:20, 3 December 2021 (UTC)

I am looking for sources on Chinese-American archaeologist Agnes Hsu-Tang (Q63115601) for Draft:Agnes Hsu-Tang. She is the incoming chair of the New-York Historical Society board of trustees [9], benefactor of the MET [10], and an appointed Distinguished Consulting Scholar to the Museum of Archaeology and Anthropology at the University of Pennsylvania [11]. TJMSmith (talk) 21:48, 3 December 2021 (UTC)

Vows to the rescue! Innisfree987 (talk) 21:54, 3 December 2021 (UTC)

@TJMSmith: Yahoo! should be avoided as a source, as I recall (something to do with the links not being very stable), but here's an article that should provide some more material and sources. --Ser Amantio di Nicolao^{Che dicono a Signa?}_{Lo dicono a Signa.} 23:04, 3 December 2021 (UTC)

Also this press release from the Met Museum. --Ser Amantio di Nicolao^{Che dicono a Signa?}_{Lo dicono a Signa.} 23:07, 3 December 2021 (UTC)

Thanks all. I started the article here: Agnes Hsu-Tang. Hopefully more independent sources arise so that some of the primary sources can be replaced. TJMSmith (talk) 00:05, 4 December 2021 (UTC)

[Excellent paper] (google drive link was found here Wakelamp d[@-@]b (talk) 01:00, 5 December 2021 (UTC)

Thanks, Wakelamp, for bring this interesting paper to our attention. I've included it on our Research page.--Ipigott (talk) 08:24, 5 December 2021 (UTC)

After reading the full article, I think it is rather strange that no mention was made of the efforts of Women in Red.--Ipigott (talk) 08:58, 5 December 2021 (UTC)

Maybe they didn't mention WiR to keep the anonymity of the contributors ....

• Do you think someone should contact the academics and offer to help on the next article? From what I have seen reading through an immense amount of journal articles/WMF reports/User pages (off topic for here, but about the typology/taxonomy of editors that drive prolific editors off Wiki, and who don't understand leave my talk page alone), but the one thing academics seems to be craving is an understanding of issues so they can create data analysis. Wakelamp d[@-@]b (talk) 10:03, 5 December 2021 (UTC)

• That's a kind offer, Wakelamp, but in all fairness even the keenest of our WiR collaborators such as Jess Wade report on how they have experienced serious harassment. The action taken by WMF has diminished the impact somewhat but the problem certainly still exists. In my opinion, the more independent academic research we have on the problem, the most likely we are to find solutions. Nevertheless, I certainly think projects like Women in Red, Women's Collaborative (which was mentioned in the paper) and related gender gap groups certainly have a role to play in making Wikipedia most hospitable to women editors. Of course Wikipedia itself will not be able to overcome the continued preference of reporting on the successes of men rather than women in the press. That's something society at large will have to combat.--Ipigott (talk) 12:16, 5 December 2021 (UTC)

I have mentioned the WiR project and a recent event in this discussion: Wikipedia talk:In the news#Systemic bias. One point is the ITN board seems to be 100% male and so is even more skewed than the average for Wikipedia. Anyway, it was suggested that I "recruit like minded people to participate". Perhaps there are some here? Andrew🐉(talk) 11:33, 2 December 2021 (UTC)

• Andrew Davidson: I'm not really familiar with ITN and have only been mentioned there once or twice when articles I happen to have created or enhanced have been considered pertinent. Has anyone ever made an analysis of the proportion of women to men who have appeared there? If, as I suspect, it is much lower than it should be (despite this week's successes), we could encourage more active WiR participation -- perhaps along the lines of DYK where it is no longer unusual for more women than men to be included on a monthly basis. Maybe some of our contributors would also be interested in joining the ITN board. Without mentioning her user name, there is only one woman contributor I recognize participating on the ITN talk page.--Ipigott (talk) 15:25, 2 December 2021 (UTC)

• ITN is similar to DYK in that the nominations result in articles being featured on the main page and that's good for motivation and readership. But, while the DYK process is quite deterministic and inclusive, the ITN process is more political in that editors !vote on whether nominations should appear or not. So, the outcomes then naturally tend to depend on who's doing the !voting. For example, football gets the most entries at WP:ITN/R, which records the routine, recurring entries. There are 23 football tournaments listed and only one of them is for the women's game. Andrew🐉(talk) 16:22, 2 December 2021 (UTC)

• "There are 23 football tournaments listed". The list has 11 tournaments, no idea where you get the 23 from. Fram (talk) 16:27, 2 December 2021 (UTC)

• There are many forms of football including rugby football (see here for a full list). As it happens, notice that the featured article today is about a footballer – Manon Melis (right). She has won several high profile events in women's football, such as the UEFA Women's Championship, but these do not seem to appear alongside the men's equivalent events at WP:ITN/R. Andrew🐉(talk) 16:49, 2 December 2021 (UTC)

• Oh, you mean that discussion where the replies to your "list of 23" were "Goodness me. You think rugby football is the same sport as football? Like e.g. boxing and tiddlywinks?" (@Martinevans123:), "I think this is now getting into the territory of WP:TROLL." (@The Rambling Man:), "Well, apart from the fact that this list of 23 sports contains six completely different sports ... good grief." (@Black Kite:), or "Andrew is quite clearly trolling here." (@Pawnkingthree:). Repeating the same nonsense will only in the end lead to you getting banned from ITN just as you have been banned from everything deletion related. I have no idea why you insist on being your own worst enemy. Fram (talk) 17:09, 2 December 2021 (UTC)

Since when is rugby a subset of football/soccer??? Edit: I see Fram had already replied with a much better demonstration of bewilderment than my own. JoelleJay (talk) 17:16, 2 December 2021 (UTC)

See our article football which explains that "Sports commonly called football include association football ... gridiron football (specifically American football or Canadian football); Australian rules football; rugby union and rugby league; and Gaelic football." These varieties are all well covered at WP:ITN/R but not the women's game, it seems. Andrew🐉(talk) 17:21, 2 December 2021 (UTC)

The dismissive ridiculing replies by Fram and JoelleJay, when they know perfectly well what was meant and are merely quibbling over nomenclature, seem like the sort of gatekeeping one might expect from a male-dominated board that wants to stay that way. It may not be explicitly sexist, but it comes across to me as having the same intent and result. —David Eppstein (talk) 17:56, 2 December 2021 (UTC)

Especially since their replies have nothing to do with the topic presented at all and seem to be some sort of dispute tangent. They don't seem to be refuting the core claim either. Silverseren^C 18:03, 2 December 2021 (UTC)

I have no idea what their actual core claim is. At first, at ITN they seemed to be arguing that ITN should better reflect whatever gets the most pageviews, with a (male) boxing match with lots of readers but no consensus at ITN as their focus. This has now switched to this, where popularity suddenly no longer is a factor apparently, but "systemic bias" is. Their initial example was not really convincing, so they again started with their "football" example, deliberately again using the wrong definition of that sport to make their numbers more impressive. Their core argument seems to be "ITN does it all wrong", but their arguments about whzt is wrong with it are self conteadictory. Fram (talk) 18:15, 2 December 2021 (UTC)

Calling soccer and rugby varieties of the same sport (while referring to an article that calls them different sports but which are sometimes refered to by the same name) is as silly as claiming that swimming and synchronised swimming are the same sport, or polo and water polo. Apart from that, I hardly enter into ITN discussions, Joellejay is presumably female, Andrew Davidson is male, but yeah, it´s all a sexist male conspiracy and not simple exasperation with the antics of one editor. Fram (talk) 18:06, 2 December 2021 (UTC)

As Andrew is keen to conflate all versions of "football" together, could he point us to the articles we've overlooked for the women's equivalent finals for the Copa America, Africa Cup of Nations, AFC Asian Cup, Copa Libertadores, Premier League, La Liga, Bundesliga, AFL Grand Final, Grey Cup, All-Ireland Senior Football Championship etc which we have failed to notice please? These are, of course, just those mainly related to association football. Once we've got those equivalents identified and worked up for ITN quality and notability, we can move onto rugby etc. The Rambling Man (Keep wearing the mask...) 23:51, 2 December 2021 (UTC)

+1 to exasperation with the antics of one editor. JoelleJay (talk) 06:51, 3 December 2021 (UTC)

I'd say I'm at best a gatekeeper of "what everyone thinks when someone refers to 'football' on Wikipedia in the context of male media coverage bias". Maybe the fact that two very disparate parties, one being the ITN board and the other being a woman who had never heard of the ITN board before today and who was only vaguely aware of ITN itself, apparently had very similar reactions to Andrew's proposal(?) says more about the proposal than it does about male-dominated sports news gatekeeping? JoelleJay (talk) 07:16, 3 December 2021 (UTC)

• Perhaps WIR could have an editathon aimed at making ITN nominations, to introduce more people to the process. Innisfree987 (talk) 18:05, 2 December 2021 (UTC)
• More women's football, I say. Look... 20-0 vs Latvia!! Martinevans123 (talk) 20:35, 2 December 2021 (UTC)

  It's that kind of result which perhaps demonstrates why some women's football tournaments are not currently considered as notable as their male counterparts... a match between two international football teams should not be so embarrassingly one-sided. The Rambling Man (Keep wearing the mask...) 20:45, 2 December 2021 (UTC)

  You mean like Australia vs American Samoa from 2001 that was 31–0? Oh wait, that was a men's game. I guess the matches for the FIFA World Cup aren't notable either. Silverseren^C 21:01, 2 December 2021 (UTC)

  Weird. That was a record-scoring game, hence its notability. And it was 20 years ago. American Somoa were 201st in the world (out of 203). Women's football is on the up but it's still a country mile behind the men's game all round I'm afraid. Latvia are far from the worst women's team in the world (there are 40 teams ranked below them) yet allowed nearly 60 shots (from England who are far from the best in the world). It was pathetic and humiliating. But yes, almost invariably qualifying matches for the FIFA World Cup aren't notable enough for their own articles, that is correct. The Rambling Man (Keep wearing the mask...) 21:14, 2 December 2021 (UTC)

• So, Andrew's opening post seems to (now) be about systemic bias against women's interest articles (or something like that). He then goes on to discuss football articles. I took a look at UEFA Women's Euro 2017 Final and UEFA Women's Euro 2013 Final, both of which are very weak compared to their male counterparts. Indeed, 2019 FIFA Women's World Cup Final is another poor article for such a "prominent" event, yet the 2015 FIFA Women's World Cup Final article was featured at ITN. Perhaps if the articles were improved and had a good run at ITNC (our usual thinking around what qualifies at ITNR, which is, after all, what Andrew is talking about) then things would be different. But the events are sporadic, and until recently have paled into near-insignificance vs their male counterparts which are global phenomena. Maybe this project could work on UEFA Women's Euro 2022 Final and get it up to a reasonable standard before we get there next July? Worth a try. The Rambling Man (Keep wearing the mask...) 23:31, 2 December 2021 (UTC)

Gotta say I think The Rambling Man's defence of the status quo stinks; and nothing I've read on Wikipedia:In the news leads me to believe that the process is anything but a cabal selecting stuff they like and deselecting stuff they don't. So, for instance, TRM notes that the 2015 FIFA Women's World Cup Final article was featured at ITN, but the (longer & more detailed) 2019 FIFA Women's World Cup Final article is "another poor article". Indeed another poor article for such a "prominent" event, prominent in quotes b/c who would be stupid enough to think that an international women's football competition final might be prominent. TRM has already foreclosed on that sort of thinking: women's football is "still a country mile behind the men's game all round I'm afraid" and TRM's decision is final. "But yes, almost invariably qualifying matches for the FIFA World Cup aren't notable enough for their own articles, that is correct" because GNG doesn't apply to women's football, and anyway the idea that any media anywhere would write about an international women's football competition qualifier is absurd.

In some different universe, ITN might suppose that an international women's football competition final is, in fact, a current event and one worthy of applying the Wikipedia:In the news#Criteria observation that an article "may have a sub-par update associated with it, but be posted anyway with the assumption that other editors will soon join in and improve the article." But no. TRM has already foreclosed that route: "Perhaps if the articles were improved". Well. Perhaps. But perhaps an improved article would fail because it's all just girlies trying to kick a ball. It is, after all "highly subjective whether an event is considered significant enough" and the decision of the cabal ("There is consensus to post the event") is final.

Nowhere do I see any concern whatsoever from TRM that there might be gender bias in ITN, even as it seeps from every pore. --Tagishsimon (talk) 01:36, 3 December 2021 (UTC)

Oh do bugger off. I was simply explaining why women's football isn't as prominent as men's, in the world let alone at ITN. I'm sorry you have chosen to completely misinterpret my words, my intentions and have written me off with nothing but bad faith. I guess if this is how people react to suggestions on how to get more success at ITN for women's football articles, that's why it's currently such an abject failure. Honestly, your projection is as off-the-mark as it is offensive. Of course, the decision to post anything at ITN is almost literally nothing to do with me, so perhaps find another target for your misguided vitriol next time. The Rambling Man (Keep wearing the mask...) 07:23, 3 December 2021 (UTC)

Rather than criticizing each other's positions, it would be far more constructive to discuss how we can ensure better coverage of women on ITN. Innisfree987 has already suggested holding an editathon designed to increase women's participation. It also looks to me as if it would be useful to have more active participation from WiR contributors on the so-called "ITN board". The key process of selection appears to be on Wikipedia:In the news/Candidates. The main contributors here (over 50% since April 2020) have been Sca (10 articles created from 2006 to 2016 including one women's biography), The Rambling Man (644 articles created since 2005, most on sports and male sportsmen but including a handful of one-line stubs of women dressage riders in 2012, a one-liner on Sarah Wiltshire and several articles in 2015 on the Women's Boat Race), Ktin (56 articles created since 2006 with many biographies of men but also a few women including Maria Guarnaschelli, Monika Tilley, Indira Joseph Venniyoor and at least three more) and Masem (540 new articles since 2007, mainly on video games and pop music with no obvious concentration on women). It therefore looks to me as if we need two or three active WiR participants willing to contribute to this activity. Any volunteers? Any other suggestions?--Ipigott (talk) 16:42, 3 December 2021 (UTC)

Ipigott I also contribute to reviewing material on female athletes, ironically most recently a comprehensive FAC review of ... wait for it ... Manon Melis who would not have featured at TFA if not for such reviews. The Rambling Man (Keep wearing the mask...) 17:48, 3 December 2021 (UTC)

I really don't think ITN has any gender-driven biases from the regulars, it would be more a matter of lack of nominations or ratio of nominations that could be considered of interest to womens' studies/etc. The only place that we may clearly be skewed is in what stories from sports are considered ITNR (recurring items), as that tends to focus on mens' sports than womens', but that's an issue with the media itself as being discussed above. We obviously try to post those sports that are equal - eg the result of tennis matches or marathons where there's separate mens v womens competitions, treating both equally, but we're still bound that most womens' sports simply do not get news coverage equal to mens'. --Masem (t) 16:54, 3 December 2021 (UTC)

I will add (in reviewing the earlier discussion) that at ITN we do look for article quality - bios should be fully sourced, events should be fleshed out, etc. - and this may be an area that Women in Red can address if they know a focused event is about to come do. ITN isn't looking for FA/GA quality but we will not post articles in poor shape. So make sure these are well sourced, that when the news-worthy event happens that there's at least a few sentences about it, or if its a new article, well beyond stub size, etc. That I think can be attributed to the overall issue of male vs female editors on WP that generally leave women-based articles in poorer shape than men-based articles that would be considered "equivalent", simply due to the lack of attention from volunteer editors.

This is probably particularly true for recent deaths (RDs), which only need to show article quality and reporting of the death in the news. To the best of my knowledge, we don't usually have an issue of what % of articles proposed for RD are of poor shape considering women vs men, but that could be an issue. And of course, men are more likely to be nominated for RD. If you have a decent quality article on a recently deceased women of note, and can point to where in the news this death was reported, these are really easy to get passed at ITN. --Masem (t) 17:23, 3 December 2021 (UTC)

Hello everyone, I am just coming-in here, based on a notification that I received based on the above tag. I think there are quite a few things here that needs to be unpacked. But, here's how I read the original editor's post here and in WT:ITN [12] . I am unpacking them into independent questions. IMHO, each of them should be studied independently.

1. How do we encourage more women editor participants in the project? There is a statement above that the 'board' is 100pc men. Well, while I do not have any numbers with me, I am hoping it is not true. I am hoping we do have some women editors in the project. The problem is I do not have a way to determine this number, but, I am sure brighter minds than me are studying this problem. There was a statement by the original editor here [13] about an organizer / new editor whose experience was less than optimal -- maybe there is something to be unpacked there and if there are any admins (would it be their role? or others?) who can have a chat with them to understand their experience that might help as well. All-in all, even if the number is not 100%, I am sure that we can do our best to increase the number of women editor participants in the project.

2. How do we ensure more WP:WIR articles in WP:ITNR? Please pardon my lack of awareness on soccer (as is being discussed above), but, if there are women's games / tournaments that are not a part of the recurring news events -- the best way to solve this would be to nominate for WP:ITNR discussions and try this out. This one needs to be unpacked and studied independently.

3. How do we ensure more WP:WIR articles in WP:ITN? On this one, I am with Masem, I do not think there are any conscious gender-driven biases from any of the regulars. If we are seeing a mismatch in numbers, we will have to solve it by adding to the nominations, I think. While an editathon is good, it might or might not solve this one, because a) this has to be a continuous exercise, and b) the article has to be in the news and should be nominated.

Solving for these three questions independently (though there are some linkages) might be a good way to go about it. I wish you all the absolute best. Take care and stay safe. Ktin (talk) 17:40, 3 December 2021 (UTC)

First up, the ITNR thing is a bit of a red herring in the first instance. Literally anything can be nominated through the regular process at WP:ITNC and that would be a suitable place to start with women-related material. For regular sporting events, once they have been regularly nominated and their notability agreed upon, ITNR would be the next stop. Football articles aside, which particular articles should have been posted but weren't? Where are the concrete examples of gender bias or is it simply passive as a result of the demographics? I see plenty of women at RD and lately we've had a near-exclusive women-based blurb box too. The Rambling Man (Keep wearing the mask...) 17:48, 3 December 2021 (UTC)

Hello The Rambling Man, I do not know the answer to any of the questions (neither my questions nor the ones that you have added). I just contributed to (hopefully) decluttering the thread by separating the questions. For each of them, I would suggest, a) examine (hopefully with data), b) evaluate, and c) try pointed interventions. Good luck. Ktin (talk) 18:02, 3 December 2021 (UTC)

How can WP:WIR community help? I was giving this some more thought and here goes -- The WP:ITNRD sub-section of WP:ITN features recent deaths. This is a segment where the WP:WIR community can directly help contribute. For e.g. I have been working on cleaning Marie-Claire Blais and bringing the article up to homepage levels of hygiene i.e. citations, clean prose, neutrality of language, adequacy of coverage, no copvio etc. However, my off-wiki commitments for the last couple of days have significantly impacted my ability to work on this article. I will continue to find time, but, if someone in this community wants to join-in and help work on the article that would be great. Generally, the window of opportunity is up to a week after the death of the person.

Going forward, if this community can create a notice board of some form where editors can post articles that require some support (more 'hands and legs', more 'minds') in fleshing out, I can think of that being useful as well. Ktin (talk) 16:32, 5 December 2021 (UTC)

Thanks, Ktin, for these constructive suggestions. I've just been looking through Marie-Claire Blais and it seems to me that improvements to the article by DocWatson42 have brought it up to an acceptable standard.--Ipigott (talk) 07:40, 6 December 2021 (UTC)

Thanks, yes. I had a chance to work on this one last evening and we were able to get this onto the mainpage. [14]. Thanks also to DocWatson for the support.

Going forward, if the community here wants to create a notice board of some form where editors can provide articles that require edits, that might be useful. One key thing here is that WP:ITN for obvious reasons has a relatively short turnaround period for improvements. Good luck. Ktin (talk) 15:51, 6 December 2021 (UTC)

• It looks as if there's another woman candidate today, Valérie Pécresse who has just been elected The Republicans' candidate for the 2022 presidential election. Would anyone like to submit it?--Ipigott (talk) 16:16, 4 December 2021 (UTC)

  That will never make it to ITN, it simply isn´t important enough. I don´t think any presidential candidate, even for the US, has made it to ITN. Fram (talk) 17:52, 4 December 2021 (UTC)

• The ITN must be very narrow-minded. I can assure you it will be in all the world's headlines tomorrow. A woman taking over the reins of de Gaulle's party and a woman who really stands a chance of becoming the first woman president in France. It's just the kind of thing we should be taking a lead on. Just watch!--Ipigott (talk) 20:53, 4 December 2021 (UTC)

• ITN tries to avoid non-top election news articles, as these are not assured changes in a nation's top level governance, in part that day-to-day politics and how they are covered by the media present a systematic bias that we try to avoid (otherwise ITN would be dominated by US and UK political stories). Should Pecresse be elected, that would be an ITNR and we'd clearly want to feature it, assuming the election article is up to quality. This is not a gender bias aspect, it is just how we've chosen to avoid aspects of politics that do not have immediate and significant worldwide impact. That said: that story should be covered in the Current Events portal, and it does seem like a strong DYK candidate. --Masem (t) 00:04, 5 December 2021 (UTC)

• Thanks for explaining the background, Masem, and offering some encouragement. In order to avoid further frustration and disappointment, it would be useful to have a list of reasons why people are unlikely to be posted on ITN. From our discussions on this page, it is evident that you and your team have clear criteria for people in sports and politics. Are there any others? It would be equally useful to learn in which cases people really stand a chance of being accepted, providing the corresponding articles are up to standard. Maybe it would be worthwhile to review carefully the "Criteria" section on the ITN page, explaining in more detail the basis for acceptance or refusal. At the moment, there is vague mention of potential problems associated with "sports, science, and artistic-based stories" but there is nothing about politics. In the light of all the discussions about sports on this page, it seems to me it would be helpful to enlarge on the relevant criteria applied in that connection too. It might also be useful to explain "consensus" in more detail, especially as in the vast majority of cases the same small team review all the candidates.--Ipigott (talk) 07:56, 5 December 2021 (UTC)

Ipigott: Thanks. *^_^* This inspired me to clean up a few more references, though a IMHO a fuller version of this would be nice (a page number, perhaps a link to an archived version of the review):

• Weightman, John (29 January 1960). "Fiction in France". Review section. The Observer.

As a current example, consider the case of Peng Shuai. This has been in the news for weeks now and coverage continues. For example, see ‘Where is **?’: Fans in China Elude Censors to Talk About Peng Shuai in the NYT or Women's tennis takes a stand against China in The Economist. This has been nominated twice at WP:ITN/C. Firstly, there was Disappearance of Peng Shuai. And there is another nomination which is still open: WTA suspends Chinese tournaments.

The topic is not standard or straightforward and so it is not WP:ITN/R and there are a variety of issues and objections. Perhaps WiR editors can help in addressing them? Andrew🐉(talk) 08:46, 4 December 2021 (UTC)

Indeed, the primary stumbling block before any kind of argument over the notability of the story is that, as a BLP, the article is missing far too many citations for it to be a target from the main page. If that blocker could be removed by volunteers from here to bring the article up to a suitable standard, all that would be left to remain would be the discussion over whether this is of sufficient encyclopedic value to be featured at ITN. Of course this kind of topic isn't exclusive to women, indeed just over a year ago Hao Haidong made his views clear and was censored by the Chinese state. That story was also not featured at ITN. The Rambling Man (Keep wearing the mask...) 10:37, 4 December 2021 (UTC)

I was just looking at the upcoming WiR events and workshops at the Uni of Edinburgh when I saw this mention of the "Prepbio tool". Here is a link to the tool itself. It seems very easy to use. I wonder if anyone here uses it or teaches about using it? BTW, a big thank you to Stinglehammer for managing those WiR events and workshops. Curious what your experience has been with attendees of the Uni of Edinburgh events who have used the tool? --Rosiestep (talk) 17:39, 6 December 2021 (UTC)

Hello again -- I saved this Rwandan businesswoman article from speedy deletion but the article badly needs rewriting for tone, if anyone here is interested? Cheers, Espresso Addict (talk) 19:51, 6 December 2021 (UTC)

ETA: Looking at the creator's talk page, they've recently created a moderate number of bios which look to be of women, nearly all of which have been speedy deleted, draftified or sent to AfD. Perhaps someone could give them some tips? Cheers, Espresso Addict (talk) 19:56, 6 December 2021 (UTC)

• The last three were deleted within minutes of each other without leaving any trace of what needs to be done to improve them. Strange, as earlier bios seem to have been fairly well prepared.--Ipigott (talk) 21:27, 6 December 2021 (UTC)

  A7s, but seems to me a real stretch of what an A7 is supposed to be. Take this one, for example: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Draft:Mireille_Karera. She founded a startup and won an award. Seems like a credible claim of significance to me. Does it meet notability guidelines? I doubt it. But that's explicitly not what A7 is for. Extremely bitey. -- asilvering (talk) 21:41, 6 December 2021 (UTC)

 You are invited to join the discussion at Wikipedia:Articles for deletion/Supriya Shrinate. Venkat TL (talk) 10:18, 5 December 2021 (UTC)

• It is always useful to make sure that articles on women are given categories which include "women" or "female", and their talk pages given banners for {{WP Women}} and other WikiProjects: that way, any deletion discussions are listed in relevant listings like Wikipedia:WikiProject Women/Article alerts and come to the attention of interested editors. I've added a couple of categories and talk page banners. PamD 10:37, 5 December 2021 (UTC)

@Venkat TL: Forgot to ping you: PamD 10:39, 5 December 2021 (UTC)

Thanks for the ping, I would have missed this comment without the ping. Thanks for this info, will keep it in mind. I did not create the article. Venkat TL (talk) 10:41, 5 December 2021 (UTC)

That is an excellent recommendation, PamD. I went ahead and added 2 more talkpage WikiProject banners. --Rosiestep (talk) 17:43, 6 December 2021 (UTC)

Agreed. And don't forget the recently created wp:Women in Business which should prove useful when we focus on business in January. Many of the BBC's new list of 100 women should be suitable for this project.--Ipigott (talk) 06:54, 7 December 2021 (UTC)

A few months ago, while working on the article about Economics in the French wikipedia, I began to think about the question of the representation of women in general articles such as Economics. Humaniki provides global statistics about the number of biographies by gender. But what if women and other minorised gender groups are ignored or underrepresented in articles about general topics such Economics, Sociology, Philosophy, etc.

So I have developed some SPARQL queries which computes gender statistics about entities cited in an article (aka blue links). Results are really interesting. In this notebook I look at gender diversity in some articles dedicated to academic disciplines. It's interesting to see that in some cases the share of women is really low (below 5%).

Feedback about this approach is welcome. If you're interested, you can find more insights on my Wikidata user page . PAC2 (talk) 19:40, 3 December 2021 (UTC)

Thanks so much for this note. Lots of valuable data in this post. Particularly, puts some of the information that we are seeing in the above thread (WP:ITN related) in perspective. So, this is very timely. Now, is there a version of this analysis that can be done on the editors. i.e. gender diversity amongst editors (perhaps broken down by projects)? Thanks for this analysis. Ktin (talk) 19:48, 3 December 2021 (UTC)

This is an interesting new venture into gender research on Wikipedia, PAC2. The initial results in connection with Economics are interesting, though perhaps not unexpected as the topic has a long history. In addition to work on Sociology and Philosophy, it would be interesting to see if articles on topics of current interest such as Photography, Computer science and Ecology suffer from the same degree of male domination. It might also be interesting to examine gender relationships in the corresponding lists: List of economists, List of photographers, List of computer scientists and List of ecologists. I see that you have already provided more extensive information on the results you have obtained on the French Wikipedia. Could you develop your account in English with similar results. (I looked at your notebook but could not run the routines.) In any case, please keep us informed of further developments, including any relevant publications. Maybe you could also write something up for The Signpost.--Ipigott (talk) 07:41, 4 December 2021 (UTC)

Most editors don't list their gender on their userpages, so that kind of analysis is likely to be dangerously weakly sourced. -- asilvering (talk) 22:11, 4 December 2021 (UTC)

I thought the analysis was on the number of bluelinks to people cited as authors of references, not on the number of Wikipedia editors. Most bluelinked articles on people do list their gender. —David Eppstein (talk) 22:25, 4 December 2021 (UTC)

I'm not replying to the top-level comment, but to the reply by @Ktin: is there a version of this analysis that can be done on the editors. i.e. gender diversity amongst editors -- asilvering (talk) 01:03, 5 December 2021 (UTC)

Gender can be detected at about 80 % according to [article] They used people who declared their gender on WP, to program an AI to detect gender in general with about 80 % accuracy. Although the fact that word twilight is predictive makes me laugh (Buffy all the way for me)-)).

@PAC2 the article's figure 4 shows which area are possibly dominated by male authors; " Women participate relatively more (15% or more of the comments –considering editors for which we were able to identify their gender) in discussions about Arts, Health, Mathematics and Computing, where more positive emotions are expressed, while less than 7% of comments are written by women in History and events and Geography". The only doubt I have is whether some areas attract people who are just nice. I am also not sure whether the female/male editor breakdown reflects the professional breakdown. Wakelamp d[@-@]b (talk) 10:32, 5 December 2021 (UTC)

Thanks for all your feedbacks. I like the idea to write an article for the Signpost (cc Ipigott.

For your information, I've added two new focuses in the collection https://observablehq.com/collection/@pac02/gender-diversity-in-wikipedia-articles : one on computer sciences https://observablehq.com/@pac02/gender-diversity-in-wikipedia-articles-focus-on-computer-s?collection=@pac02/gender-diversity-in-wikipedia-articles and on one social sciences https://observablehq.com/@pac02/gender-diversity-in-wikipedia-articles-focus-on-social-sci?collection=@pac02/gender-diversity-in-wikipedia-articles

Moreover, inputs are now interactive. You can test new articles easily. PAC2 (talk) 19:50, 7 December 2021 (UTC)

• 

Adam Cuerden ^(talk)_{Has about 7.5% of all FPs} 08:41, 7 December 2021 (UTC)

Nice picture. Well restored. Good to see you're still around Adam. We sometimes need your assistance.--Ipigott (talk) 12:10, 7 December 2021 (UTC)

Happy Christmas @Adam Cuerden! Lovely work, as ever. Innisfree987 (talk) 19:54, 7 December 2021 (UTC)

It's my favourite time of year :) Someone already started the section for 2021, so I added a table of the recipients in. Lots of redlinks to work with! I'll make the traditional Wikidata table some time today so we can also see who has articles on other wps. -Yupik (talk) 08:54, 7 December 2021 (UTC)

Thanks Yupik I've been looking forward to this too. Last year was the first time I was aware of it and the meta table was SO HELPFUL, so thank you! Lajmmoore (talk) 09:56, 7 December 2021 (UTC)

Here's the table I promised. An editor is rapidly creating items for the people missing out of Wikidata, so I'll be updating the table periodically. -Yupik (talk) 09:57, 7 December 2021 (UTC)

Lajmmoore I'm glad they've been of use :) Thank you for all your hard work! -Yupik (talk) 09:58, 7 December 2021 (UTC)

Yupik: That was really quick work. I only mentioned it above a couple of hours earlier. Once again, you've put together a really useful table. I have a feeling many of those from Afghanistan will be difficult to justify on notability grounds but we should certainly see what we can do.--Ipigott (talk) 10:56, 7 December 2021 (UTC)

Financial Times has a similar list here Top 25 women of 2021. This can be useful as well. I suspect we might have most folks covered already, but, worth double checking. Ktin (talk) 19:10, 7 December 2021 (UTC)

Only one name on the FT list is not already on Wikipedia, Sotooda Forotan, a 15 year old activist from Afghanistan. TSventon (talk) 20:37, 7 December 2021 (UTC)

There are many interesting women without Wikipedia articles in the recently published Forbes 30 under 30 list for 2022 North America and 2022 Europe. They have a full world directory which can be accessed year by year back to 2011. As we have a page on Forbes 30 Under 30, perhaps Yupik or some other expert at compiling tables could proceed along the same lines as for the BBC, at least for 2022.--Ipigott (talk) 07:33, 8 December 2021 (UTC)

which provides me with the EXCELLENT opportunity to promote the SheSaid drive… https://meta.wikimedia.org/wiki/Wiki_Loves_Women/SheSaid. Whenever you write a wikipedia article about one of those 100… consider adding or populating an entry on wikiquote (from stuff she said or stuff said about her). We are not fully sure of how many entries have been created so far, because it is a bit complicated to track entries (we know that English is currently understimated for example), but so far, 900+ entries have been created ! English portal : https://en.wikiquote.org/wiki/en:Wikiquote:SheSaid Anthere (talk)

Thanks, Anthere, for this suggestion. We should probably be doing more to build up Wikiquote. By the way, did you catch the interesting BBC's Wikipedia item on Afrocuration? (Approx. the last 15 minutes of the current Digital Planet episode).--Ipigott (talk) 10:13, 8 December 2021 (UTC)

Found this great painting of Laura Johnson Wylie (scholar of English literature at Vassar around the turn of the 20th century; one of, if not the first, women to get a PhD in English at Yale) but I can't read the signature. First name definitely "Margaret"; surname looks like it could be "Barnes"? I don't see a color copy online. Anyone attend or work at Vassar College? I assume it's somewhere on campus ... AleatoryPonderings (???) (!!!) 04:00, 8 December 2021 (UTC)

It's not a painting, it's a photograph, and it's made by Margaret DeMott Brown (or Margaret DeM Brown, as she was often called). Fram (talk) 12:46, 8 December 2021 (UTC)

Ah, the soft focus confused me. She did a portrait of FDR, among other things. Hard to find biographical info but Margaret DeMott Brown could become an article for an intrepid researcher. [15] and [16] have birth and death dates, respectively. AleatoryPonderings (???) (!!!) 16:02, 8 December 2021 (UTC)

After quite a bit of effort and work alongside @FloridaArmy:, the article on Lou Swarz is finally ready for its stage debut. If anyone has any finishing touches to add to the article, please feel free. One of the more blatant things we're still missing is birth and death dates for her. Searching for info on her was a bit of a mess, as there's over a dozen different variations of her stage names combined with her birth name that have been used in news media across the decades, just see the What links here. Silverseren^C 00:15, 8 December 2021 (UTC)

• Added her to surname list Swarz.PamD 06:39, 8 December 2021 (UTC)

Silver seren Okay well, I've started searching and trying to do due diligence to ensure that the records are for the right person. Lots of name sames and her changing name certainly complicates things. I found this lines 1-5, but it isn't clear it is her because her father isn't listed, her mom is shown as Manda. Her sibling's names are given as Pearl, Sarah, Erma B. (You show sisters as Pearl Schwartz, Sarah Schwartz, and Vernedine Jennings, but Verna/Erma could easily have been misheard by the census taker). If this is her, she was born between 1897 and 1898 in Missouri, so should appear on the 1900 census. Checked that and found lines 90-93 Henry Swartz, wife Amanda, Pearl, Henrietta L. born May 1897. Given that the siblings and parents match, we know her name was Lucile Henrietta or Henrietta Lucile and that she was born in Saint Louis, this record appears to correctly identify her. Death date so far elusive, but I'll continue to search for a bit. SusunW (talk) 15:32, 8 December 2021 (UTC)

Still unable to find a death date. I found this, which shows she was still living in 1960 and this which shows she was living in 1968. Found a photo, which can definitely be used if you upload it. This issue of Cash Box was copyrighted in 1953 as B427698, but checking copyright.gov I find no renewals of B00000427698 or any renewals for Cashbox (renewals start with RE) between 1977 and 1997. Since copyrights before 1964 lapsed if they were not renewed, you can use {{PD-US-not renewed}} if you want to upload it. SusunW (talk) 16:36, 8 December 2021 (UTC)

Thanks for all the help, @SusunW:, i've uploaded a cropped image of Swarz from the Cash Box page here. If anyone can make a better quality version from that page, please do. My software options aren't great. Also, SusunW, I can't view the FamilySearch result links you gave due to not having an account there. Would that be a reliable source for such information? Silverseren^C 19:16, 8 December 2021 (UTC)

Silver seren FamilySearch is free only requires that you register with an e-mail and password to access the records. It's a reliable source, the 1900 US Census. Yes, it's primary, but the government is not likely to lie in creating records to document or identify people. Can't help you with the photo. The research part I know how to do, the technical parts are above my paygrade. It you want me to cite the birth info, I'm happy to do it. SusunW (talk) 20:32, 8 December 2021 (UTC)

Yeah, since you have access already, SusunW, if you could add that, it would be really helpful. Thanks again for looking into this stuff. I'm good at finding sources, but only within the databases I usually use. Silverseren^C 20:37, 8 December 2021 (UTC)

Silver seren done. I am wondering if an e-mail to her sorority would confirm her death date. I have friends who are members of those organizations and they tend to record that information, often publishing it in a newsletter or the like. SusunW (talk) 20:50, 8 December 2021 (UTC)

Incidentally United nations Sixteen Days campaign to take note of against Gender-Based Violence is ongoing.

About section Minar-e-Pakistan#2021 mass sexual assault a discussion is underway @ Talk:Minar-e-Pakistan#Incident where in a request has been made to shift substantial content to a draft page on the incidence. Seeking inputs about Gender based violence related section in the article about monument itself, The question is how much relevant is relevant to Wikipedia articles?

Thanks

Bookku, 'Encyclopedias = expanding information & knowledge' (talk) 08:48, 9 December 2021 (UTC)

Lina Wertmüller died last night, Rome time. An excellent opportunity for WP:ITNRD, especially given our extensive discussion above re ITN. See [17], among many other obits. AleatoryPonderings (???) (!!!) 19:35, 9 December 2021 (UTC)

Is there an ongoing drive relating to Rwandan women? There seem to be a lot of good-faith attempts to create articles on this topic recently which are not getting through the New Page patrollers.

I've drafted Draft:Chantal Umuhorakeye, if anyone can assist with it. The creator Aline NDACYAYISENGA is another one with a long list of draftification/deletion notices on their talk page if anyone can give them some hints; some of them look quite promising eg Draft:Marie Claire Mukasine. Cheers, Espresso Addict (talk) 02:34, 10 December 2021 (UTC)

Added some more details to Draft:Marie Claire Mukasine. She definitely seems notable. Dsp13 (talk) 16:08, 10 December 2021 (UTC)

Agree with you, Dsp13. Draft:Marie Claire Mukasine was a Senator. Per Wikipedia:Notability (people)#Politicians and judges, she meets notability policy. Draft:Therese Bishagara Kagoyire was also Senator, so meets notability; however, the article needs some attention. --Rosiestep (talk) 17:08, 10 December 2021 (UTC)

Hello Espresso Addict & Dsp13 I've added a few references and moved Mukasine to mainspace now. I've not had a chance to check to de-orphan though! Lajmmoore (talk) 17:17, 10 December 2021 (UTC)

Thanks all! Great job! Mukasine is already linked to Second legislature of the Rwandan Senate so the article is not completely orphaned; hard to know where to link when so many key organisations remain redlinks. Espresso Addict (talk) 00:39, 11 December 2021 (UTC)

Another declined senator at Draft:Muhongayire Jacqueline. Espresso Addict (talk) 01:54, 11 December 2021 (UTC)

@Espresso Addict, thank you for surfacing these! I’ve imposed some order on this one and brought it live. Innisfree987 (talk) 02:36, 11 December 2021 (UTC)

Thanks Innisfree987, I can always count on WiR to save the day :) Cheers, Espresso Addict (talk) 02:58, 11 December 2021 (UTC)

• Thanks in part to our assistance, seven of the bios of Rwandan women Aline NDACYAYISENGA has created since 23 November are now on mainspace. Two others, Chantal Nyirandama [18], [19] and Kevine Kagirimpundu [20], [21] were deleted yesterday by Bbb23 without leaving drafts for improvement. Perhaps they can be retrieved for further work.--Ipigott (talk) 08:02, 11 December 2021 (UTC)
• More Rwandan businesswomen, this time from Proyezu, more than 10 in the past week. At a glance these all look pretty vulnerable to PROD and might not be saveable, though. -- asilvering (talk) 08:10, 11 December 2021 (UTC)

• @Espresso Addict and Innisfree987 and I worked on Draft:Therese Bishagara Kagoyire, which I've now moved to article space here, Therese Bishagara Kagoyire. She's another one linked to Second legislature of the Rwandan Senate. --Rosiestep (talk) 17:28, 11 December 2021 (UTC)

Great! So now Aline's created eight on mainspace.--Ipigott (talk) 06:23, 12 December 2021 (UTC)

Restored and moved to draft space: Draft:Chantal Nyirandama and Draft:Kevine Kagirimpundu. Other drafts include Draft:Zulfat Mukarubega, Draft:Marie Ange Mukagahima, Draft:Berthilde Niyibaho, and Draft:Mariam Muganga. TJMSmith (talk) 23:11, 11 December 2021 (UTC)