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Wikipedia:Articles for deletion/Maury Ornest

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The following discussion is an archived debate of the proposed deletion of the article below. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the appropriate discussion page (such as the article's talk page or in a deletion review). No further edits should be made to this page.

The result was batted out as copyvio. Pegasus «C¦T» 13:58, 19 November 2008 (UTC)[reply]

Maury Ornest

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Maury Ornest (edit | talk | history | protect | delete | links | watch | logs | views) (delete) – (View log)

Non-notable. Minor league baseball does not meet WP:ATHLETE. If he's considered to have reached the "highest level of amateur sport" because he played for UC Santa Barbara, then every person who's ever played Division I baseball qualifies, and I don't see that that's been an acceptable criterion in the past. There's nothing to indicate that he's notable for being an artist. Being the son of someone famous does not make you famous. Little Red Riding Hoodtalk 20:23, 16 November 2008 (UTC)[reply]

He was the youngest professional draft pick ever, he had a killer batting average and his career ended due to a really nasty accident during a ball game. He is now an emerging artist whose works are in the collections of luminaries.Josiewarvelle (talk) 21:40, 16 November 2008 (UTC)[reply]

He was drafted when he was 20. There have been Major League players who were younger than that. Little Red Riding Hoodtalk 22:02, 16 November 2008 (UTC)[reply]

No, he was first drafted at 17. He was the youngest DRAFT PICK. Josiewarvelle (talk) 00:23, 17 November 2008 (UTC)[reply]

The link which is used as evidence of that claim doesn't say any such thing. Little Red Riding Hoodtalk 00:36, 17 November 2008 (UTC)[reply]

Of course the page shouldn't be deleted! Maury is well known and WAS the youngest draft pick as of 1977.Jeanmariesimpson (talk) 00:46, 17 November 2008 (UTC)[reply]

Please provide reliable sources that he is well-known. Little Red Riding Hoodtalk 01:04, 17 November 2008 (UTC)[reply]
  • No, actually, it isn't. Minor League Baseball is fully professional, that is a fact. WP:ATHLETE states that athletes who have played in a fully professional league are presumed to be notable. Thus, this individual meets WP:ATHLETE as it is currently written. Now, you will note that I didn't place a keep !vote using this as its basis. Whether or not the guideline, as stated, actually has consensus support is an entirely different matter. Resolute 06:02, 17 November 2008 (UTC)[reply]
  • There is not a general consensus that MiLB is fully professional at all levels. The highest level Ornest made according to The Baseball Cube is A ball. Don't know the salaries at that time (but I understand they were lower, even accounting for inflation), but in 2005 full season A ball was $1050 a month (for the five months he was playing) for a first year player like Ornest. Flipping burgers full time in Stockton would have earned $1200 - $1400 a month in that same year. So yes, he was paid, but "fully professional" is a stretch when the total annual pay is less than $6000 in today's dollars.--Fabrictramp | talk to me 15:24, 17 November 2008 (UTC)[reply]
  • And if consensus was that the Earth was flat, would that make it so? The players are paid professionals. Not necessarily a ton of money, but they are signed to contracts that pay them a wage to play baseball. That is professional. I'm not saying this makes this person notable, just that "fails WP:ATHLETE" is incorrect reasoning. Resolute 17:02, 17 November 2008 (UTC)[reply]
  • My point is that he meets your definition of professional, but not everyone has the same definition. Heck, I was recently paid a small amount for some photos I took, but by no means am I a professional photographer. My comment is to simply alert the closing admin that there is disagreement on the subject.--Fabrictramp | talk to me 18:17, 17 November 2008 (UTC)[reply]
  • Come on, kids. Minor League players have no rent to pay, travel with the team, stay in hotels and have per diem in addition to their salaries. Many players pop back and forth between the Majors and Minors, owned by the franchise. Give it a rest.75.164.22.227 (talk) 18:50, 17 November 2008 (UTC)[reply]
  • Actually, players in MiLB fit the dictionary definition of professional, as their primary job is to be a baseball player, and they are paid to perform that job. Your selling a few photos is an irrelevant comparison, as you do not make photography your primary profession. Once again, consensus that the earth is flat would not make it flat. Resolute 22:53, 17 November 2008 (UTC)[reply]

I know. I don't understand the agenda around wanting to delete this page so badly.Webberkenny (talk) 01:44, 17 November 2008 (UTC)[reply]

There is no agenda. Little Red Riding Hoodtalk 02:00, 17 November 2008 (UTC)[reply]

I removed the reference to him being the youngest draft pick. I had always understood it to be true, but wasn't able to find any reference to the ages of the youngest draft picks. As a professional athlete, he qualifies.Juanlyjeff (talk) 02:04, 17 November 2008 (UTC)[reply]

If he's not the youngest draft pick, how is he notable? I think we just need to find documentation to substantiate it - he's been recognized as that since '77.71.220.181.15 (talk) 03:59, 17 November 2008 (UTC)[reply]

I changed the reference to "citation needed." We just need to find the documentation - it's gotta be out there.71.220.181.15 (talk) 04:18, 17 November 2008 (UTC)[reply]

  • Delete Longstanding consensus is that minor leaguers aren't professional, at least of the sort required to meet WP:ATHLETE. As he's not done anything (as far as I can see) that would make him notable otherwise, this needs deletion. Nyttend (talk) 05:00, 17 November 2008 (UTC)[reply]
  • KEEP I contacted a prominent baseball statistician. He'll get back to me and verify or not Ornest's status as the youngest draft pick. And your consensus is baloney. Minor League players are paid professionals who are 'owned' by the franchise.75.164.1.112 (talk) 05:19, 17 November 2008 (UTC)[reply]
  • Delete as copyright violation of this page, from which sentence after sentence of this article was taken. Although Class A baseball is professional, it is only the 4th highest level of professional baseball in the United States and does not convey a great deal of notability. That said, if the subject can be established as a notable artist, a new article about him can be created later. --Metropolitan90 (talk) 07:17, 19 November 2008 (UTC)[reply]
    • As an aside, I have found at least one player who appears to have been drafted at a younger age: Fernando Cruz, born 3/28/1990 and drafted by Kansas City in the 6th round in 2007. There may well be younger draftees. It's hard to research this because this kind of statistic is not kept prominently. By contrast, Joe Nuxhall was only 15 when he made his major league baseball debut; that was before the MLB draft existed. --Metropolitan90 (talk) 08:11, 19 November 2008 (UTC)[reply]
The above discussion is preserved as an archive of the debate. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the appropriate discussion page (such as the article's talk page or in a deletion review). No further edits should be made to this page.
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