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The following discussion is an archived debate of the proposed deletion of the article below. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the appropriate discussion page (such as the article's talk page or in a deletion review). No further edits should be made to this page.

The result was - No consensus - Chrislk02 Chris Kreider 20:53, 25 February 2008 (UTC)[reply]

List of supercouples

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List of supercouples (edit | talk | history | protect | delete | links | watch | logs | views) (delete) – (View log)

A ridiculous article that has no encyclopedic merit at all, it is not based on fact, simply people's opinions Paul75 (talk) 01:35, 17 February 2008 (UTC)[reply]

  • Weak keep This is not a case of WP:OR (as I inferred from the nomination). The term "supercouple" is defined in cited sources and in the associated article Supercouple. Article needs revision to more clearly establish importance. Note: I tried to access several online sources cited in the introduction to this article, and this was the only link that worked. --Orlady (talk) 01:44, 17 February 2008 (UTC)[reply]
  • Delete - Pretty much a canonical example of original research. Supercouple looks a right mess, too, with lots of references to its examples, but I'm not seeing actual refs to the term itsownself. --Calton | Talk 02:36, 17 February 2008 (UTC)[reply]
  • Strong keep. How is this article based on opinion? It's not. As Orlady points out, this is not a case of WP:OR. If the public, media, and critics don't define who is a supercouple, then who will? When it comes to lists on Wikipdedia, this is one of the better ones, considering that most lists on Wikipedia are unreferenced or mostly unreferenced. It's not an opinion which couples are supercouples, but a fact. Just like the Associated Press points out that it is fact that Spider-Man (Peter Parker) and Mary Jane Watson are a supercouple.[1] This list was originally in the Supercouple article to give readers a more in-depth view and history of the many supercouples that have come and gone, or are still present today. That's what this article does, with valid references. It was too big to stay in the Supercouple article and needed its own article. It's not that different than having a List of fictional anti-heroes. Except that this list is better formatted. As for only one reference in the lead working, I'll check on that. The others should work, but two of them may not be able to be viewed anymore due to needing to buy the books to read those two sources online. Other than that, there is no reason that this list shouldn't exist. And the Supercouple article a right mess? Not the mess it was before I got to it. It's not in bad shape at all, and is no worse shape than than the Superhero article. It needs an origin of the term section and some tweaks, but that's about it. But, really, the origin is already stated in the lead. There isn't much more to state than that. Flyer22 (talk) 02:51, 17 February 2008 (UTC)[reply]
  • Delete. This article is too broad of a category to exist as a list. For example, the list currently lists Kate from Lost as being a "supercouple" with both Sawyer and Jack. However, she is not "dating" either man. It's more of a sexual tension/love triangle situation. The article also lists platonic couples such as Jon Stewart and Stephen Colbert. This section could grow to ridiculous proportions. To cite another "Lost" example. Kate had a platonic relationship with Hurley, Locke, Ben, and every other character on the show who is not a love interest. In other words, this list is an indiscriminate list of information. Lovelac7 03:39, 17 February 2008 (UTC)[reply]
  • Delete - Criteria very vague, notability very much in question. Judgesurreal777 (talk) 04:10, 17 February 2008 (UTC)[reply]
  • Delete as this will tend to be OR due to lack of criteria and RS. Majoreditor (talk) 04:15, 17 February 2008 (UTC)[reply]
  • Delete mixing fictional and non-fictional couples as well as broad inclusion criteria makes this list a mess. JJL (talk) 04:26, 17 February 2008 (UTC)[reply]
  • Delete I don't see the reason for such a list to exist.TheBigFish (talk) 04:31, 17 February 2008 (UTC)[reply]
  • Comment. This list will not get out of hand. Lovelac7 points out that Kate is not dating either of the men Lovelac mentioned. I point out that just because a character is not dating the half of the pair that makes the supercouple doesn't mean that they are any less a supercouple. Secondly, I point out that Kate is not listed as a supercouple with anyone on this list. Those two couples you mentioned in concerns to her are listed as notable couples, not supercouples. Lastly, just the fact that this article might need to be cut down on sections doesn't mean that it should be deleted. It is a well-referenced article, for the most part, and can be managed...just like the List of fictional anti-heroes article is. In fact, this article is managed all the time. There is no original research here (unless you count some of the unreferenced entries in the Comic book section), and I cannot see the point in deleting an article that is well-referenced for the most part, and informative on the years, dates, etc. of supercouples and notable couples that got together, ended, whatever. This is an article that informs readers on the history of supercouples in the way that the Supercouple article cannot. If this list needs to be pared down, then fine. But that doesn't equate to deletion.
  • The criteria for inclusion? The criteria is being listed as a supercouple or cited as a notable couple. This article can easily be cut down to just include soap opera, celebrity, and comic book supercouples, and that's a great criteria, since those areas mention the term Supercouple the most. If this article is deleted, I may make a list like that, as I feel that that would be better justified. Either that, or I suggest a List of fictional supercouples. Not sure about a List of celebrity supercouples, since some would probably feel that that is more subjective. The reason for either type of list to exist? I've explained above. Saying a list about supercouples shouldn't exist is no different than saying a list about various other things shouldn't either. Flyer22 (talk) 04:34, 17 February 2008 (UTC)[reply]
  • Delete. The four criteria for inclusion constitute original research and I don't see any way this can be fixed without gutting the list. The only acceptable criterion would be that the people were specifically described as supercouples by a reliable source, which doesn't appear to be the case for most entries. *** Crotalus *** 04:44, 17 February 2008 (UTC)[reply]
  • Comment. I don't feel that the four critera for inclusion is original research at all. And most of the entries are reliable sources, ranging from Soap Opera Digest to Entertainment Weekly, and various other valid sources. If you mean the real-life supercouples, I suppose you mean something other than Hollywood.com, which is still a reliable source either way. Not to mention, most of the celebrity supercouples in this article have valid sources to their entries, other than Hollywood.com. And if the criteria for inclusion is what needs to be fixed concerning this article, I still don't see a valid reason for this article to be deleted. But either way, I came back to this debate to say, "To hell with it". Go ahead and delete it, as it's apparent that it will be anyway. I mean, it's obvious that even a well-sourced list that provides additional, great information can get deleted...while unsourced or mostly unsourced, unkept, bullet-style, and more so trivia lists get to remain. I have other matters that need my attention more so than this, like the Supercouple article, for instance, before someone ups and nominates that again for deletion, as if Supercouples are just something pulled out of air and made up. I won't make any other list of supercouples, and I'm glad that I didn't make this one, even though I kind of did. I've saved the material in this article, just in case it's allowed here one day, or someone else wants to make a supercouple list out of one of the three main types of supercouple genres. I must be psychic as well, because even though I and others who worked on this article with me long saw this deletion debate coming (for reasons I'd rather not voice here), today, in particular, I envisioned it being nominated for deletion. Oh well. Flyer22 (talk) 05:30, 17 February 2008 (UTC)[reply]
    • Though I do not think this article is salvageable, some of the information you've worked so hard on is still useful to Wikipedia. I would suggest a much more specific article, like List of soap opera supercouples. However, since there is indeed a difference between a "notable couple" and a "supercouple", you should probably remove all "notable couples" from the list. Stick to sources that specifically say "supercouple", and you should be relatively safe from any original research claims. Lovelac7 05:46, 17 February 2008 (UTC)[reply]
      • I thought about that, but it might be brought up that a List of soap opera supercouples is redundant...because there's already a Category:Soap opera supercouples, even though a list (well, the type in this article) would inform on years. But I'd point out that while there would be some redundancy with both existing, the list allows for couples to be listed who don't have articles. It's not that some of the couples who don't have articles aren't notable...but rather that not much of an article can be made about them, or they are only notable to the soap opera medium rather than outside press as well. However, I think that there was already a list consisting of soap opera supercouples and it was deleted. Although, it was more so deleted due to being unreferenced and un-maintained, I'm not sure that I want to create another one...even though it would be a better version. Flyer22 (talk) 06:40, 17 February 2008 (UTC)[reply]
  • Keep Gary King (talk) 09:26, 17 February 2008 (UTC)[reply]
  • Keep although the appellation may be somewhat arbitrary, it is nonetheless a real phenomenon in such fictional drama series. Any disagreements on individual couples listed should be handled separately, but the whole page should not be discarded. -- Dougie WII (talk) 11:22, 17 February 2008 (UTC)[reply]
    • It may be a real phenomenon, but the fact that this page mixes fictional and non-fictional characters shows that the topic is way too broad. It would be like making a page called List of food that included not only real-life food, like ice cream and hamburgers, but also fictional foods like Soylent Green and Klingon Gagh. Such broad topics do not do any good and should be deleted. Lovelac7 15:38, 17 February 2008 (UTC)[reply]
    • Comment. Which is why it would work as separate lists for the main three types of supercouples...or rather four, if you count comic book supercouples. Flyer22 (talk) 19:47, 17 February 2008 (UTC)[reply]
  • Strong keep this was part of the Supercouple article that was nominated for deletion but kept. It was broken out only because the article was loading slowly. It's well referenced and there are no couples on it that don't have a reference. KellyAna (talk) 18:49, 17 February 2008 (UTC)[reply]
  • Strong delete It's not using objective criteria. (Note that I originally forgot the "not"). нмŵוτнτ 19:16, 17 February 2008 (UTC)[reply]
    • Comment. Hmwith, I'm surprised that you put in a delete "vote". You, just as much as most versed in the knowledge of supercouple topics, understands the existence of this list. And if it's using objective criteria, that's not as much a bad thing. It's the subjective criteria, that would be more so bad. Although, I don't feel that this article is using objective or subjective criteria. It's using (mostly) valid sources. Flyer22 (talk) 19:47, 17 February 2008 (UTC)[reply]
      • Well, even if I like it, personally, I try not to let my personal biases affect my editing or comments on XfDs. I definitely see the need for a supercouple article, and I see a need for articles on certain actual supercouples. However, the list is unneeded, in my opinion. I've brought up on the talk page some idea of how it could have been fixed, but, I now realize that there is nothing worth keeping, besides maybe a few (5 or so) of the most notable couples mentioned, in prose, in the article. However, that's already done, so no need to keep this article. нмŵוτнτ 23:13, 17 February 2008 (UTC)[reply]
        • I try not to let my personal biases affect my editing or comments either. I disagree with you about this article not being needed. Certain aspects of this article are needed (I'll further address this below). And there is plenty in this article worth keeping. Flyer22 (talk) 09:13, 18 February 2008 (UTC)[reply]
  • Delete as overly broad and original research. AniMate 20:15, 17 February 2008 (UTC)[reply]
  • Keep and reference better, its only original research if I make the decision, when the tabloids add the moniker, ist verifiable. --Richard Arthur Norton (1958- ) (talk) 21:01, 17 February 2008 (UTC)[reply]
  • Comment. Not that I care about this article staying anymore, as I've already pointed out, but to state that this article should be deleted because of original research is false. There are many valid sources in this article naming couples as supercouples or notable couples. This article may be deleted for mixing fictional and non-fictional couples, but original research certainly isn't a prominent factor in this debate. Flyer22 (talk) 21:05, 17 February 2008 (UTC)[reply]
  • Strong Delete To make a more broader statement on why I believe this article is ripe for deletion is whichever way you look at it, this article IS based on personal opinion ONLY - no-one is a supercouple by fact, only by gossip, innuendo and in the case of fiction, by writers. "Supercouple" is a phrase coined by the media, and bandied about to whoever the editor of any magazine wants to throw it at. It is entirely objective - a "supercouple" in an American soap is a "who the hell are they?" to the rest of the world's population. Is the list going to include supercouples from Ukrainian soap operas? If the local newspaper in Scotland calls Fred and Ethel from the local radio programme a supercouple, can they be included? Where does it end? Should every couple in every novel of note be included? Are the Queen and Prince Philip a supercouple? Are couples from last century supercouples? And if so where is the evidence as the term is only a recent invention? This list is non-encylcopedic and entirely subjective as the country the writer lives in will influence their input, resulting in an non-NPOV article, which is against Wikipedia conventions. Paul75 (talk) 22:50, 17 February 2008 (UTC)[reply]
  • Comment. In response to Paul75, you are completely wrong. This article IS NOT based on personal opinion ONLY or personal opinion whatsoever. Nor is the Supercouple article. You act as though anyone can be deemed a supercouple or is. That is not the case. Yes, couples are supercouples by fact. It's not just "by gossip, innuendo and in the case of fiction, by writers." No, no, and a thousand times...no. It surprises me, really, at times that people miscontrue what a supercouple is. But I'll make it clear again: The public is what makes supercouples. Supercouples are made by the public and media's fascination with a couple beyond normal reason. Writers and gossips magazines don't just name a couple a supercouple and they become one. Although there is criticism over whether Luke Snyder and Noah Mayer deserve the title of supercouple, the public made them a supercouple before they were given the title. The main reason they were even given that title, even though early, is because of the absolute mania they caused. More than one editor or fans have deemed them a supercouple. The public made Tad Martin and Dixie Cooney a supercouple, not the media or critics. They are even written about in books and cited as a supercouple there as well. The public made Jesse Hubbard and Angie Baxter a supercouple, not the media and critics. The media and critics just cited it, as the many valid links in this article as well as the Supercouple article showcases. "Supercouple" is not some new term. "Supercouple" is not solely a phrase coined by the media, and it most certainly is not "bandied about" to whoever the editor of any magazine wants to throw it at. That editor doesn't throw that name at any couple until they are a supercouple first. TomKat became a supercouple due to the public, not just the media's, insane obsession with that couple. They are cited as a supercouple in many valid sources and often. The same for Brad Pitt and Angelina Jolie. It's not just one source calling them supercouples. It's many sources calling them supercouples. Not all or most fictional couples can be or are titled supercouples, and not all and certainly not most celebrity couples are titled supercouples. And, yes, this article could include supercouples from non-American countries, as it already includes Posh and Becks. But this article will be deleted anyway. If you want to delete this article, as clearly you do, then fine. But don't act as though a supercouple is just something made up in fairy tale land. Because, clearly, that is not the case. Flyer22 (talk) 01:00, 18 February 2008 (UTC)[reply]
  • Delete per JJL and TheBigFish. The fact that most of the entries are sourced signifies to me not that having a "list of supercouples" is encyclopedic, but rather that some members of the media use the term "supercouple" indiscriminately. --Metropolitan90 (talk) 01:14, 18 February 2008 (UTC)[reply]
    • Comment. And as I just stated above, that is not the case. The couples listed as supercouples in this article can be found cited as supercouples constantly. It is not a matter of every couple being titled a supercouple. Not at all. But oh well. I've mainly stated what I have to state concerning this topic...er debate. I need to go further improve the Supercouple article and other articles on Wikipedia. Fight vandalism. Whatever. Flyer22 (talk) 01:37, 18 February 2008 (UTC)[reply]
      • Actually, I take back part of the last sentence. In fact, some of the cited sources don't actually use the word "supercouple", which means that applying the term "supercouple" to the couples in question is original research, which doesn't belong on Wikipedia. It also contradicts the statement in the article that "Each of these examples has been identified by scholars, critics and press as defining a supercouple". --Metropolitan90 (talk) 01:26, 18 February 2008 (UTC)[reply]
        • Comment. The couples that are not cited as supercouples in this article are not listed as supercouples. If you notice, they are listed as notable romances/romances often cited as great love stories. Sure, that probably shouldn't be in this article, but I don't see it as misleading or original research...because they aren't listed as supercouples. But again, I don't quite see the point in taking it out now, since this article will obviously be deleted. Flyer22 (talk) 01:37, 18 February 2008 (UTC)[reply]
          • Well, both Siskel & Ebert and Ebert & Roeper are currently listed in this article. But the citations for them don't describe them as "supercouples", and they certainly don't describe them as notable romances or great love stories. So it's not clear what they are doing in this article at all. --Metropolitan90 (talk) 08:29, 19 February 2008 (UTC)[reply]
            • Yes, well, that's a flaw. Flaws like that in Wikipedia articles can be corrected, of course. But listing those four as supercouples had more to do with the citations showing them as notable duos. Either way, most of the couples listed as supercouples in this article are cited as supercouples in this article. But as I stated below, I'm now more focused on creating a list of fictional supercouples when it comes to a list of supercouple anything. Flyer22 (talk) 02:17, 20 February 2008 (UTC)[reply]
  • Keep - Although newer, the term is no less well-defined than deus ex machina, the entries are well-sourced, and the parent article has survived an AfD making a "list of" article appropriate for inclusion. —Torc. (Talk.) 06:07, 18 February 2008 (UTC)[reply]
  • Keep - As long as Supercouple remains a viable Article, this List of will also remain a viable Article (and no, that is not based on WP:OTHERSTUFFEXISTS). Exit2DOS2000•T•C• 07:55, 18 February 2008 (UTC)[reply]
  • Comment: To those who argue that it should exist because a parent article exists: Why can't the few (5-10) most notable simply be merged into that article, or have a passing mention there? нмŵוτнτ 08:48, 18 February 2008 (UTC)[reply]
  • Comment. The Supercouple article already does what you suggest, Hmwith. But this article gives a more in-depth look at the history of supercouples. Anyway, I've come back to this debate once again to mostly state that I will be making a List of soap opera supercouples or a List of fictional supercouples, since, as I've stated more than once now, this article will be deleted. I'm still not sure about making a List of celebrity supercouples. You might want to try that one, Hmwith, but I really don't need the stress of people acting as though it's arbitrary and subjective, as if every celebrity couple that comes along is named a supercouple, thus I will stick with focusing on a list of fictional supercouples, if I am going to create any list of supercouples...and I am. The main concern with this article is how it mixes fictional and non-fictional supercouples...because, let's face it, this certainly is not an original research matter. Thus the logical thing to do is to separate them from each other...as in not existing in the same article. Even though, hey, the main four types of supercouples exist in the Supercouple article. But oh well. There you have it, my plans.
  • Also, the Supercouple article will be getting a nice expansion very, very soon, which will consist of an introduction section called Defining a supercouple...and expansion of the Film section, etc., so it's all good. Peace again. Flyer22 (talk) 09:13, 18 February 2008 (UTC)[reply]
  • Keep : Well sourced article. Not an OR. Europe22 (talk) 12:54, 24 February 2008 (UTC)[reply]
  • Keep and improve. Of course reliable sources are arbitrary, they are written by individuals and it is the opinions of these individuals with which we verify. We aren't concerned with so-called facts over everything else. The inclusion criteria are clear and you can debate them on the talk page (the second criterion isn't disputable for a list with this name). You can argue for removing certain entries, and if there aren't enough left to warrant a stand-alone list, then talk about deletion. A split based on the scope issues attacked by the nom would also be an editorial decision. –Pomte 01:08, 25 February 2008 (UTC)[reply]
The above discussion is preserved as an archive of the debate. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the appropriate discussion page (such as the article's talk page or in a deletion review). No further edits should be made to this page.
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