Wikipedia:Articles for deletion/Jim Lawrence (ice hockey)

The following discussion is an archived debate of the proposed deletion of the article below. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the appropriate discussion page (such as the article's talk page or in a deletion review). No further edits should be made to this page.

The result was delete. No evidence has been presented that the subject passes WP:GNG. Meeting WP:NHOCKEY is questionable at best, but even this does not guarantee notability if substantive sources cannot be found. Jujutacular (talk) 15:01, 6 September 2013 (UTC)[reply]

Jim Lawrence (ice hockey)

(Find sources: Google (books · news · scholar · free images · WP refs) · FENS · JSTOR · TWL)

Fails WP:NHOCKEY. Eredivisie is not a top professional league. Hwy43 (talk) 19:00, 18 August 2013 (UTC)[reply]

Note: This debate has been included in the list of Ice hockey-related deletion discussions. Hwy43 (talk) 19:37, 18 August 2013 (UTC)[reply]

Note: This debate has been included in the list of Canada-related deletion discussions. Hwy43 (talk) 19:39, 18 August 2013 (UTC)[reply]

Note: This debate has been included in the list of Sportspeople-related deletion discussions. • Gene93k (talk) 14:45, 20 August 2013 (UTC)[reply]

Keep - Nom is incorrect about Lawrence not meeting WP:NHOCKEY. He meets either criterion 1 or 2 of the guidelines. --Hockeyben ^{(talk -} ^contribs) 17:18, 21 August 2013 (UTC)[reply]

Don't see how either Eredivisie or the Central Hockey League is a "top professional league" or a league considered "the highest level of competition." Hwy43 (talk) 07:10, 22 August 2013 (UTC)[reply]

The Eredivisie is the "top professional league and/or the highest level of competition" in the Netherlands. --Hockeyben ^{(talk -} ^contribs) 17:24, 23 August 2013 (UTC)[reply]

I can't interpret criterion 1 or 2 of NHOCKEY applying to "top professional league and/or the highest level of competition" in any given country if they don't state such. In the absence, I interpret it as worldwide and it is difficult to agree the nomination is incorrect without any qualifier.
If the spirit and intent of both criteria truly is by country, NHOCKEY should be amended to explicitly say so. It would therefore prevent potentially unnecessary AfD nominations. Regardless if this is the case, I maintain my nomination per WP:SPORTCRIT and by failing WP:GNG per below. Hwy43 (talk) 07:40, 24 August 2013 (UTC)[reply]

Delete. NHOCKEY only presumes notability on the basis of certain arbitrary criteria. It does not, however, guarantee it. This article fails WP:GNG pretty badly. I'm not finding many trivial mentions of him, let alone anything substantial so as to meet the notability threshold. Reso lute 18:35, 21 August 2013 (UTC)[reply]
Keep - Jim Lawrence is a retired professional ice hockey player who passes NHOCKEY having played in the Dutch Cup and Eredivisie which is the top level of play in the Netherlands. Outreels (talk) 15:50, 22 August 2013 (UTC)[reply]
- Yes, I have already explained why passing NHOCKEY does not guarantee notability in this case. Se also WP:SPORTCRIT, which is the basic criteria for the sports notability guideline, which an athlete also has to pass for NHOCKEY to even apply. Would you care to address that aspect of the problem? Reso lute 16:57, 22 August 2013 (UTC)[reply]
Delete – WP:NHOCKEY is only a presumption of notability. WP:NHOCKEY is not a checkbox list where you can say that "This player meets criteria x of WP:NHOCKEY, so this player should have an article!". Even if the player meets WP:NHOCKEY, you still need to find references that assert the player's notability for Wikipedia. Hey mid (contribs) 08:00, 24 August 2013 (UTC)[reply]

Relisted to generate a more thorough discussion so a clearer consensus may be reached.

Please add new comments below this notice. Thanks, Mark Arsten (talk) 01:02, 25 August 2013 (UTC)[reply]

Keep - Played in the Netherland's top professional league to meet the criteria of WP:NHOCKEY. Presumption of notability has been established per WP:NSPORTS, and Dutch language sources can presumably be found (and nom has provided no "proof" that such sources do not exist to rebut the presumption). Dolovis (talk) 20:07, 26 August 2013 (UTC)[reply]
- NSPORTS demands that you demonstrate that Lawrence has been the subject of multiple published, non-trivial, secondary sources which are reliable, intellectually independent, and independent of the subject. So please, demonstrate the existence of these sources.Reso lute 22:45, 26 August 2013 (UTC)[reply]
  Actually, WP:NSPORTS states (and I quote): "The article must provide reliable sources showing that the subject meets the general notability guideline or the sport specific criteria set forth below." and that standard has been met within the article. Dolovis (talk) 23:00, 26 August 2013 (UTC)[reply]
Delete no evidence that he meets WP:GNG, nor WP:ATHLETE as the league is not listed for that matter Secret ^account 02:07, 4 September 2013 (UTC)[reply]
Keep as WP:NHOCKEY states "Played one or more games in an existing or defunct top professional league such as ...". There is no mention there of a requirement for it to be worldwide nor is there a requirement for the league to be specifically listed whereas it say "such as". That being said, this individual does meet this requirement as Eredivisie itself means "premier league" and being the only league in the Netherlands, is the top league (as well as the bottom). Technical 13 (talk) 00:33, 5 September 2013 (UTC)[reply]
Delete I do not believe he meets the definition of WP:NHOCKEY: "Played one or more games in an existing or defunct top professional league such as ...". To me the word "top" signifies an internationally recognized elite league, and not the top league of any given country. I think that the listing of leagues following the "such as" supports this. They are all top, as in internationally recognized elite, leagues. If it were to mean all top level leagues of any particular country than a league such as the Eredivisie or Thai World Hockey League would be listed as well. Ravendrop 19:59, 5 September 2013 (UTC)[reply]
Delete As with Ravendrop, I do not believe the word top refers to the first division in each country, but rather the top leagues throughout the world. The AHL is not the top ice hockey league in the US/Canada, but I don't think there would be much debate that it is closer to being considered an elite league than the Eredivisie. Patken4 (talk) 12:48, 6 September 2013 (UTC)[reply]

The above discussion is preserved as an archive of the debate. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the appropriate discussion page (such as the article's talk page or in a deletion review). No further edits should be made to this page.