Wikipedia:Articles for deletion/Franklin Fowler

The following discussion is an archived debate of the proposed deletion of the article below. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the appropriate discussion page (such as the article's talk page or in a deletion review). No further edits should be made to this page.

The result was delete all‎. Seraphimblade ^{Talk to me} 07:42, 8 October 2023 (UTC)[reply]

Franklin Fowler

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A claim to notability has been made regarding a medal from the Massachusetts Humane Society (see Wikipedia talk:Notability (people)#Massachusetts Humane Society Award) but consensus seems to be that this does not meet the "well known and significant award" test of WP:ANYBIO. Per consensus at Wikipedia:Articles for deletion/James Howard Van Pelt and Wikipedia:Articles for deletion/Charles O. Beebe the job of maritime pilot is not in and of itself notable. Melcous (talk) 14:44, 30 September 2023 (UTC)[reply]
I am also nominating the following related pages which make the same claim to notability regarding these awards

Delete: all three. Born, grew up, had a decent, albeit dangerous, job, had children, died. Sounds like a pleasant life, but fails to pass WP:BIO/WP:GNG. They are each WP:ROTM folk, and I find it har to see them as passing any notability criteria, except for those who loved them. 🇺🇦 Fiddle^Timtrent Faddle^Talk to me 🇺🇦 14:54, 30 September 2023 (UTC)[reply]
Dolliver has a WP:SIGCOV obituary here, and Fowler has several decent sources, e.g. a full-page biography and discussion on over ten pages in this book, plus a decent-length Boston Globe article and obits from major newspapers stretching from coast to coast, plus Lawler is covered extensively with a five-page long biography in this book, in addition to a decent obit in a major newspaper. I'm not liking these bundled nominations and these people look like WP:GNG passes. BeanieFan11 (talk) 14:59, 30 September 2023 (UTC)[reply]
Note: This discussion has been included in the deletion sorting lists for the following topics: People, Maine, and Massachusetts. Spiderone^{(Talk to Spider)} 15:00, 30 September 2023 (UTC)[reply]
Keep All per the sources above found by BeanieFan11. Consider it a procedural keep if you like. These should not have been bundled. Jfire (talk) 15:16, 30 September 2023 (UTC)[reply]
Suggest doing a procedural keep of both this and Wikipedia:Articles for deletion/James D. M. Beebe, each of which have way too many articles to be evaluated at once – each of varying notability and some near-certainly notable – ~~and seem to be harassment of a single user~~. BeanieFan11 (talk) 15:20, 30 September 2023 (UTC)[reply]

Sorry, but how is three articles "way too many" to be evaluated at once? I have sought to group together those that make the same WP:N claims. If you have policy reasons for suggesting there is notability for some of these, please do so. But please check the history on this before throwing around accusations of harrassment: this is the result of significant discussion between multiple editors over months about these and other articles. Melcous (talk) 17:19, 30 September 2023 (UTC)[reply]

I was mainly referring to the other bundle of 10 in the Beebe AFD - I do see some discussion and there does seem to be some concerns, so I'll strike my thought that this could be harassment - I still don't like these bundles, though. BeanieFan11 (talk) 20:53, 30 September 2023 (UTC)[reply]

@BeanieFan11 and Jfire - There is nothing wrong with creating a bundle of related articles to be deleted together, whether there are 3 or 10 or more. It is definitely not against policy to do so. In fact we have a guideline on it: WP:BUNDLE. There is a long history behind the articles in this walled garden, several editors and admins are aware of this. The nominator is not out of line here, they are acting in good faith. Netherzone (talk) 00:12, 1 October 2023 (UTC)[reply]

I noticed the nom appeared in good faith and there did appear to be a few concerns, which was why I struck part of my comment - this and Beebe still don't seem like good bundles to me, however. BeanieFan11 (talk) 00:40, 1 October 2023 (UTC)[reply]

The groupings here seem to be "articles about Boston/New York pilots of the 19th century created by an editor who is in hot water for other issues". The issue with nominating them as a group is that their notability isn't clear cut enough that we can make inferences about whether they should all be deleted by looking at one or two articles, or by extrapolating from past experience with the articles' creator. Many or most of the subjects have obituaries in major papers of the era, many have additional contemporary coverage, and some have modern coverage. These sources may or may not be enough to meet WP:BASIC. By nominating them en masse, we get the effect that most commentators either don't even notice that multiple articles are up for deletion, or look at one or two superficially and make conclusions about them that do not necessarily apply to all. This is why WP:BUNDLE is generally discouraged except in very clear cut cases: "An article with a fair or better chance of standing on its own merits should not be bundled—nominate it separately." It short circuits WP:BEFORE and WP:PRESERVE. Jfire (talk) 01:20, 1 October 2023 (UTC)[reply]

Jfire, I have sought to bundle these related to the notability claims made and undertake some WP:BEFORE work as much as possible. Bundling was actually suggested by an administrator. There are more problematic articles, and if the consensus is they need to be done one at a time then I will do that for those, but it will take up a lot of people's time. For now, could you please explain what you are referring to as "modern coverage" for any of the subjects of the articles in this nomination? Melcous (talk) 03:31, 1 October 2023 (UTC)[reply]

Thank you for the work you've put in, Melcous. The "modern coverage" I found was biographical sketches of William C. Fowler (deleted in the James Howard Van Pelt AfD) and George Lawler in Cunliffe, Tom (2001). Pilots. Vol. 1. Le Chasse-Maree/Maritime Life and Traditions. Jfire (talk) 22:08, 1 October 2023 (UTC)[reply]

In terms of Wikipedia:Walled garden, please read its talk page and the fowling note: “This is an essay. It contains the advice or opinions of one or more Wikipedia contributors. This page is not an encyclopedia article, nor is it one of Wikipedia's policies or guidelines, as it has not been thoroughly vetted by the community. Some essays represent widespread norms; others only represent minority viewpoints.” Greg Henderson (talk) 01:36, 2 October 2023 (UTC)[reply]

Delete all three. The newspaper "articles" are just reports of death and disposal of ashes with no significant biography. The book is privately published as a gizzit to customers of a bank, no editorial oversight and not a subject field expert Lyndaship (talk) 17:55, 30 September 2023 (UTC)[reply]
Delete Agree with @Lyndaship above. Not notable and should be deleted. Go4thProsper (talk) 20:40, 30 September 2023 (UTC)[reply]

Just for clarity Go4thProsper, do you mean "notable" or "not notable"? Thanks Melcous (talk) 22:20, 30 September 2023 (UTC)[reply]

Good catch Melcous. I meant not notable and have corrected it above, too. Go4thProsper (talk) 00:05, 1 October 2023 (UTC)[reply]

Delete all - These three non-notable boat pilots were simply doing their job, like millions of employees around the world. Hundreds of thousand of employees receive non-notable awards for doing their job well. These are run-of-the-mill boat pilots WP:MILL. The points |Lyndaship makes are accurate, millions of people have an obituary as an announcement of death and funeral proceedings; and there is no way of knowing if the family submitted it. Lyndaship's point about the fact that the book is not a reliable source was a good observation; it was printed by a bank as a perk to customers, it's swag, and it should not be used in any of these articles. Netherzone (talk) 00:22, 1 October 2023 (UTC)[reply]
Keep - Satisfies the WP:BASIC guidelines by being supported by numerous reliable published sources, including secondary sources that exhibit intellectual independence from one another and independence from the subject matter. For example, Fowler and Lawler have secondary sources listed in this book about pilots. Let's ensure the enduring recognition of the notable 19th-century Sandy Hook pilots in our encyclopedia! Preserving their legacy is essential for any comprehensive record. I do not like putting so many pilots into one Afd request. Greg Henderson (talk) 16:54, 1 October 2023 (UTC)[reply]
Regarding that book "source", two editors are questioning that book. It is self-published by the Second Bank of State Street, Boston, and "privately printed" (self-published). There is no indication that there was any editorial oversight by a reputable publisher. It's swag for bank customers, not a reliable source.

In the introduction the bank president and chairman of the board state it was published to give their customers "the impression received will be so favorable the reader will feel that our publications typify the instutution which issues them and the high standard maintained in their form and material is characteristic of the banking and trust services we render. It would be gratifying to us if the enjoyment derived from our brochures should induce readers to consider our bank when occasions arrive for opening bank accounts or taking advantage of our loaning faciliites which are available to business organizations and individuals....we also welcome opportunities to be helpful in making small loans, including those financing the purchase of automobiles and household appliances. It may be that some readers do not realize that our Trust Department is qualified by long experience to serve effectively as Agent in the handling of investments as Trustee of Living Trusts, Pension and Profit Sharing Plans, Life Insurance Trusts, as Executor and Trustee under wills and in any other recognized trust capacity. ". It is a promotional marketing brochure - swag. Netherzone (talk) 21:12, 1 October 2023 (UTC)[reply]
I believe it is more than swag. Historically, some authors have chosen to self-publish, e.g. John Locke, Jane Austen, Emily Dickinson, etc. Edward A. Laycock, editor for the Boston Globe said this about the book: Pilots and Pilot Boats of Boston Harbor is a thing of beauty, a collecor's item. The careful and accurate text is matched by the factual photos and the beautiful color reproductions of paintings. The history of piloting, the why of piloting, the dangers of piloting, the training of pilots, and 24 hours on a pilot boat, all are covered. The booklet is a rare bit of writing and book production." Greg Henderson (talk) 21:50, 1 October 2023 (UTC)[reply]
It does your credibility no good when you quote a source and then omit something which is not supportive of your POV. The last sentence of the quote actually says The booklet is a rare piece of bank promotion as well as a rare bit of writing and book production Lyndaship (talk) 05:30, 2 October 2023 (UTC)[reply]
It is interesting how some editors like to twist things to fit their justification for deleting articles that provide historical facts about 19th century New York and Boston pilots. In the Foreword to the Piots book, treasurer-manager Charles H. Taylor of the Boston Globe wrote to Allan Forbes, who was President of the State Street Trust Company, said: "The idea is to have a history of pilotage in Boston with stories and pictures of early and also famous pilot boats and little sketches of some of the more famous pilots themselves." The quote from Lyndaship goes further by saying "The booklet is a rare pice of bank promotion as well as a rare bit of writing and book production." The bank produced 40 of these type of New England brochures covering many subjects including New England Taverns and inns, and Yankee Clippers. Here a third review of the book. Greg Henderson (talk) 15:28, 2 October 2023 (UTC)[reply]

I self published a non fiction book. I have had some good reviews. That does not make it in any way RS (for example). 🇺🇦 Fiddle^Timtrent Faddle^Talk to me 🇺🇦 21:53, 1 October 2023 (UTC)[reply]
Another review of the book is here. Editor Leonard M. Fowle, said "Another member of the Globe family, the late Charles M. Wright, contributed to the publication through photographs of pilot boats, bits of piloting lore, and by introducing the author to living pilots. There are many fasicnationg facts gathered by Eastman in Pilots and Pilot Boat. Greg Henderson (talk) 22:33, 1 October 2023 (UTC)[reply]
The book is a questionable/unacceptable source for the following reasons:

1) it is self published

2) there is no evidence of editorial oversight, therefore no evidence of fact-checking or accuracy

3) it is sponsored content which is a form of conflict-of-interest covert advertising

4) it's a promotional marketing tool (a form of advertising/bank promotional merchandise) by the self-publisher (a.k.a swag, gizzit, promo products, freebie, etc. used for marketing and sales of the bank's financial products)

5) it is unfootnoted therefore it is unclear where the information contained therein is sourced.

Therefore it is not best practices to use such sources, and they should be used with caution if at all. As we have seen, on occasion some writers just make up "factoids" to fluff up a person's claimed importance which may be the case with this source. Netherzone (talk) 17:36, 2 October 2023 (UTC)[reply]
Delete all: Fails GNG and NBIO, having your name mentioned in print is not the same as WP:SIGCOV addressing the suject directly and in depth. Perfectly normal non-notable individuals. // Timothy :: talk 21:39, 7 October 2023 (UTC)[reply]

The above discussion is preserved as an archive of the debate. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the appropriate discussion page (such as the article's talk page or in a deletion review). No further edits should be made to this page.