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The following discussion is an archived debate of the proposed deletion of the article below. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the appropriate discussion page (such as the article's talk page or in a deletion review). No further edits should be made to this page.

The result was keep. King of ♥ ♦ ♣ ♠ 06:34, 21 June 2008 (UTC)[reply]

Downtown Markham, Ontario

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Downtown Markham, Ontario (edit | talk | history | protect | delete | links | watch | logs | views) (delete) – (View log)

A very optimistic article about all the things that a proposed urban community will be, but isn't yet because it hasn't been completed. Also see Wikipedia:Articles for deletion/Enterprise Drive. (Yes, "proposed." That's what the article said when I nominated it.)

Now it does not say proposed. See my new edit. In fact, it is not proposed because it is under construction. Smcafirst the Roadgeek (Road talk) at 00:02, 17 June 2008 (UTC)[reply]
Not a crystal ball anymore. Smcafirst the Roadgeek (Road talk) at 00:02, 17 June 2008 (UTC)[reply]
Which part is it that relates to WP:CRYSTAL? Everything are plans that are discussed in the past. All that is left crystal is the projected population, which is also approved by the Town of Markham as official projected population. As it stands, the history, the smart growth technology, the boundaries, the transportation, and the environmental sustainability are all official government plans. They are "almost certain to happen" (quoted from WP:CRYSTAL). There's such as an automobile, where one can travel to downtown markham to see all these happenings. There is also a tool called the internet. Before claiming it as a crystal ball, one should consider that the history has already happened in 1992 and in 2005, the smart growth technology has been all over the news and had been planned since 1992, the boundaries are set along with the plan, the transportation (GO, VIVA, 407) are all already established, environmental sustainability was also planned, as a negotiation between the Town of Markham and the builder Remington Group to reserve 72 acres of greenland. This plot of greenland is already reserved, and the area right now, if one is to observe, is already planted with tree seedlings. I don't see how crystal it is, other than the projected population. If the projected population does not meet Wikipedia's standard, then I'll delete it. But the rest of the article? Seems more like reality than hallucination from some crystal ball. Smcafirst the Roadgeek (Road talk) at 00:14, 17 June 2008 (UTC)[reply]
Well something that is under construction is not considered as WP:CRYSTAL. And something that is partly built is not crystal. Smcafirst the Roadgeek (Road talk) at 00:02, 17 June 2008 (UTC)[reply]
  • Comment depending on how notable the plan for this community is, an article discussing the plans as they are today (rather than the community as it is planned to be in the future) might be worth keeping, but it would take a strong rewrite to address the WP:CRYSTAL tone. NoDepositNoReturn (talk) 21:40, 16 June 2008 (UTC)[reply]
One reliable source would be from the Toronto Star stating how important this community is. The Toronto Star article gives viewpoint from every single prospective of people involved in the Downtown Markham project. It states the importance of Downtown Markham within the article's scope. Smcafirst the Roadgeek (Road talk) at 00:36, 17 June 2008 (UTC)[reply]
  • Comment - there's a tangential discussion about this at Wikipedia:Articles for deletion/Enterprise Drive. Mindmatrix 22:31, 16 June 2008 (UTC)[reply]
  • Comment - although I think this is a notable subject, there is little in the current article that is sufficiently convincing to keep it. Reliance on one source, the developer's website for the planned community, is inadequate per WP:RS. I'm certain there should be a few reliable sources which discuss the nature of the planned community, and the reason for its existence, in reasonable depth. In fact, it has been the centre of discussion and debate regarding new techniques in urban planning, so it's just a matter of finding these sources. I'm willing to give interested editors time to find and incorporate them into the article in order to salvage it, but I'll refrain from rating this as a keep until I see evidence of this. As is stands, this article doesn't merit inclusion in Wikipedia. Mindmatrix 22:31, 16 June 2008 (UTC)[reply]
    • I have found some very reliable source stating Downtown Markham's importance. I have incorporated these sources to the article. If you think that is still inadequate for Wikipedia, let me know. I'll search for more. Here are some of the new sources added, the Town of Markham, the Guelph Civic League, and the Toronto Star. Smcafirst the Roadgeek (Road talk) at 00:38, 17 June 2008 (UTC)[reply]
  • Note: This debate has been included in the list of Ontario-related deletion discussions. -- DoubleBlue (Talk) 23:32, 16 June 2008 (UTC)[reply]
  • Strong Keep. This article is NOT a crystal ball. As per NoDepositNoReturn said, the article actually discusses plans that are discussed years ago in the Markham Town Council. It's actual, under construction, it's current, and will span into the future. It is an official plan, not that I make it up and predict about the future of Downtown Markham. Any variation of the plan will be included here. If so, you said, this is a Crystal Ball article, there are many other more planned community articles. Planned communities are NOT crystal balls. These articles reflect official plans from the government. As well, many parts of the article, such as the Toll Highway, Bus Rapid Transit, the road Enterprise Road, the Honeywell and Motorola and the apartments are all built. They are reality, not some hallucination we see in a crystal ball. An extra point, Enterprise Road and Downtown Markham is home to an European architectural style that is unique across the GTA. Nowhere in the GTA can one find such architectural style. Villages centre, such as Old Markham Village, are considered as American Small-Town Style. Smcafirst the Roadgeek (Road talk) at 00:02, 17 June 2008 (UTC)[reply]
    • Perhaps I wasn't clear enough that the crystal ball aspect is the assertion that the community will be successful enough and influential enough to justify having an article about it, when it isn't routine for Wikipedia to have articles about every land development. WillOakland (talk) 01:42, 17 June 2008 (UTC)[reply]
      • The [Toronto Star article has the answer and the different perspectives to that. 3 bus routes, one highway, one major road, GO train, do you think a traffic-dependent community will work? I think so. Plus the community's small area, it only takes one's logical sense to know that. If that does not satisfy one's needs, there is always the Toronto Star article. Smcafirst the Roadgeek (Road talk) at 02:01, 17 June 2008 (UTC)[reply]
  • Comment Firstly, even a not-yet-built community within the third largest city in Toronto is going to be notable whether it succeeds or fails. Toronto, folks. But secondly, I think the article itself needs to be almost completely rewritten to eliminate WP:CRYSTAL -- it talks about the population in the future. That's about as WP:CRYSTAL as it comes. Rather than read like a real estate brochure, this should describe the Downtown Markham project -- something that currently exists. If it can't be done, then Delete and wait for someone to recreate it who can write factually. NoDepositNoReturn (talk) 03:02, 17 June 2008 (UTC)[reply]
  • Comment Wikipedia:Articles for deletion/Enterprise Drive can be resolved by a single line addition to this article stating "The main street in Downtown Markham is Enterprise Drive, of which X kilometers have been already laid." I see no reason why they need to be split at this time, and they can always be split later. NoDepositNoReturn (talk) 03:02, 17 June 2008 (UTC)[reply]
Please list out everything that is WP:CRYSTAL, I'll eliminate them now. However, it seems to me that only the population part is crystal. The introduction may contain traces of crystal, about the future CBD. Other parts remain just fine. I mean, history has already happened. The transportation network is currently existing, the Smart Growth strategy was officially in the plan when the Town of Markham laid it out, and that includes the environmental sustainability. Please list the CRYSTAL items out and I'll rewrite it. Thank you. Smcafirst the Roadgeek (Road talk) at 12:37, 17 June 2008 (UTC)[reply]
The population on the infobox have already been "resetted" to 0, to satisfy WP:CRYSTAL. But, I have a question. When all subdivisions have a plan, don't they have a projected population? As long as I cite reliable source, wouldn't including the future projected population be okay? Just a thought. I have removed most of the WP:Crystal related in the article. Smcafirst the Roadgeek (Road talk) at 13:37, 17 June 2008 (UTC)[reply]
Comment: in the infobox, the image_dot_map is using the Georgina Island version, with Georgina Island clearly coloured. A proper version of this map needs to be created.Ron B. Thomson (talk) 19:43, 17 June 2008 (UTC)[reply]
I just did it myself.Ron B. Thomson (talk) 20:01, 17 June 2008 (UTC)[reply]
  • Keep. Google News finds plenty of coverage to demonstrate notability. There's nothing wrong with writing about things such as projected population and facilities as long as it is made clear that this information is projected, not actual, and it states who it is projected by. Phil Bridger (talk) 12:08, 18 June 2008 (UTC)[reply]
  • Keep. Media coverage, major development. Using WP:CRYSTAL as a tool for determining if this is a viable article is invalidated by the fact construction is underway. Crystal ball-related comments contained within the article (if any) are content issues that can be addressed accordingly if they haven't been already. 23skidoo (talk) 14:17, 18 June 2008 (UTC)[reply]


The above discussion is preserved as an archive of the debate. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the appropriate discussion page (such as the article's talk page or in a deletion review). No further edits should be made to this page.
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