Talk:Menstrual cycle

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Changes to the brain have also been observed throughout the menstrual cycle [76] but do not translate into measurable changes in intellectual achievement – including academic performance, problem-solving, memory, and creativity.[77]

I don't think that this is a good summary of what [77] says.

Firstly, the review doesn't mention creativity even once. The studies cited focus mostly on verbal and spatial reasoning, memory, etc. I would not call this academic performance.

Secondly, from the Conclusion section in the paper:

"Studies examining the menstrual cycle in healthy women have been unable to show consistent associations between cognition and menstrual cycle phase."

"Regarding premenstrual disorders such as PMS and PMDD, although methodologically-sound studies are limited, current evidence suggests that there may be cognitive deficits in some aspects of executive functioning in those who are most symptomatic (women with PMDD)."

I think the following is a better summary of [77]:

"While studies have not consistently shown an association between cycle phases and performance in cognitive tasks related to memory or problem solving, current evidence suggests that women with PMDD might be affected in terms of executive functioning."

Note: I'm new to editing, feedback how to do things well appreciated! CyberMagpie (talk) 12:55, 8 May 2024 (UTC)[reply]

Hi, what do you mean by "executive functioning"? Graham Beards (talk) 13:06, 8 May 2024 (UTC)[reply]

This is how is it defined in [77]:

"Aside from traditionally sex dimorphic tasks, menstrual cycle studies have also considered executive functioning tasks. Executive function is an umbrella term, referring to higher order cognitive processes, such as the capacity to monitor, organize, think flexibly, and plan." CyberMagpie (talk) 13:13, 8 May 2024 (UTC)[reply]

That's rather vague. Graham Beards (talk) 14:19, 8 May 2024 (UTC)[reply]

Plausibly! Do you have any suggestions how to proceed? Despite the summary being vague, I still think it better reflects what the paper actually says. Some possible next steps might be:

1. Trying to summarize the article in a more concrete way.
2. Removing the citation of the article.
3. Expanding the literature review and including more sources.

CyberMagpie (talk) 09:31, 11 May 2024 (UTC)[reply]

We need to fix the expression "in terms of executive functioning" and delete "current". Then I think your suggestion could be adopted. I have already deleted the word "creativity". Graham Beards (talk) 09:41, 11 May 2024 (UTC)[reply]

Firstly, in the line 4 (theory 3), it's written that "Decidualization leads to the development of the endothelium", which sounds incomplete. A better way to rephrase it would be "Decidualization leads to the differentiation of the endometrial stroma" since the immune and decidual cells that were mentioned in the cited source reside in the stromal layer of the endometrium.

it's also stated that "It(menstruation) evolved in some placental mammals because it confers advantages in that it allows females to prepare for pregnancy without needing a signal from the fetus". I don't see how not needing a signal from the fetus to prepare for pregnancy, in itself could be advantageous to the mother. The proposed function/advantage of decidualisation should be explained instead.

I propose:

A theory based on spontaneous decidualization (a process that results in significant changes to cells of the endometrium in preparation for, and during, pregnancy, in which the endometrium changes into the decidua).Decidualisation leads to the development of endometrial stroma, which involves cells of the immune system, the formation of a new blood supply, hormones and tissue differentiation. In non-menstruating mammals, decidualization is driven by the embryo, not the mother.[92] One theory suggests that Menstruation is a consequence of the decidualization process and that the body uses spontaneous decidualization to identify defective embryos early on[90][1]. This process happens because the decidual cells of the stroma can recognize and respond to defects in a developing embryo by stopping the signals needed for the embryo to implant.^[1]

Ferid9 (talk) 04:30, 8 August 2024 (UTC)[reply]

The first sentence (which is poorly written) is not needed. The rest could be acceptable, but why are your writing menstruation with an uppercase em ? Also, "early on" is too vague, the citations go after the punctuation, and what signals? Graham Beards (talk) 07:32, 8 August 2024 (UTC)[reply]

In mice(which don't spontaneously decidualise) decidualisation would happen 1 day after implantation [2].In women, decidualization starts at around day 23 of the cycle [3].Assuming intercourse on day 13, one day for fertilization and 7 days for the blastocyst to form and implant [4], the blastocyst would be implanting on day 21 or 22 in the best case scenario.

So humans:implant on day 22, decidualize on day 23

Mice:Implant on day 4, decidualize on day 5

So this theory is actually starting to make no sense. Idea that SD evolved to detect "bad" embryos early on was suggested by this article. Maybe the source for the timing of decidualisation(23rd day) in humans is not reliable? Or maybe animals other than mice start decidualization later and invest in faulty embryons for longer before they abort.

Ferid9 (talk) 08:26, 8 August 2024 (UTC)[reply]

İ'm not here to debunk a theory, İ think changing the "signals" to "cytokines" and fixing typos would be sufficient.Also, if you mean the first sentence of the 4th line, i didn't write that Ferid9 (talk) 08:51, 8 August 2024 (UTC)[reply]

Ok, if you could edit it accordingly and format the citations correctly, we could add it. I suggest you present the text below, and we can then paste it into the article. Graham Beards (talk) 10:43, 8 August 2024 (UTC)[reply]

Current revision

My proposal

A theory based on spontaneous decidualization (a process that results in significant changes to cells of the endometrium in preparation for, and during, pregnancy, in which the endometrium changes into the decidua). Decidualization leads to the development of the endothelium, which involves cells of the immune system, the formation of a new blood supply, hormones and tissue differentiation. In non-menstruating mammals, decidualization is driven by the embryo, not the mother. It evolved in some placental mammals because it confers advantages in that it allows females to prepare for pregnancy without needing a signal from the fetus. Hypothesis 3 defers to an explanation of the evolutionary origin of spontaneous decidualization and does not explain the evolution of menstruation alone.

A theory based on spontaneous decidualization (a process that results in significant changes to cells of the endometrium in preparation for, and during, pregnancy). Decidualisation leads to the differentiation of the endometrial stroma, which involves cells of the immune system,[2] the formation of a new blood supply, hormones and tissue differentiation. In non-menstruating mammals, decidualization is driven by the embryo, not the mother.[3] According to this theory, menstruation is an unintended consequence of the decidualization process and the body uses spontaneous decidualization to identify and reject defective embryos early on.[4] This process happens because the decidual cells of the stroma can recognize and respond to defects in a developing embryo by stopping the secretion of cytokines needed for the embryo to implant.[4]

Ferid9 (talk) 12:50, 8 August 2024 (UTC)[reply]

That's much better. I have fixed the citation formatting errors in your version. I don't like "some authors". That's too vague. Perhaps say "It could be that menstruation is an unintended consequence of the decidualization process and that the body uses spontaneous decidualization to identify defective embryos early on." Graham Beards (talk) 13:07, 8 August 2024 (UTC)[reply]

İ rephrased that, İ think this version is good to go. Also thanks for helping me out with this revision. Ferid9 (talk) 14:01, 8 August 2024 (UTC)[reply]

I'll implement the change now. Graham Beards (talk) 14:28, 8 August 2024 (UTC)[reply]

Full sentence.. "Called ovulation, this occurs when a mature egg is released from the ovarian follicles into the fallopian tube".

Proof from wikipedia that this is false..
"The opening is surrounded by fimbriae, which help in the collection of the oocyte after ovulation." from Fallopian tube
"The secondary oocyte leaves the ruptured follicle and moves out into the peritoneal cavity through the stigma, where it is caught by the fimbriae at the end of the fallopian tube" from Ovulation

Proof from an external source.. "The follicle swells until it bursts open, ejecting the egg and fluid into the abdominal cavity.", https://www.thewomens.org.au/health-information/fertility-information/getting-pregnant/ovulation-and-conception

Wallby (talk) 21:42, 20 August 2024 (UTC)[reply]

Hi, this article says "After release from the ovary, the egg is swept into the fallopian tube by the fimbria – a fringe of tissue at the end of each fallopian tube." Where is the problem? Graham Beards (talk) 06:47, 21 August 2024 (UTC)[reply]

We could change that to

Called ovulation, this occurs when a mature egg is released from the ovarian follicles into the peritoneal cavity, which is then swept into the fallopian tube by the motion of fimbiae Ferid9 (talk) 09:25, 21 August 2024 (UTC)[reply]

I don't think that is an improvement it is not the peritoneal cavity which is swept into the tube.Graham Beards (talk) 11:41, 21 August 2024 (UTC)[reply]

Replies

• First to call this minor issue "blatant misinformation" is nonsense.
• Second, other Wikipedia articles are not more reliable and no article can be used as a source.
• Third, I have stressed the release of the egg into the pelvic cavity, so the two salient sentences now say: "Called ovulation, this occurs when a mature egg is released from the ovarian follicles into the pelvic cavity and enters the fallopian tube, about 10–12 hours after the peak in LH surge." and " After release from the ovary into the pelvic cavity, the egg is swept into the fallopian tube by the fimbria – a fringe of tissue at the end of each fallopian tube."

I thank Wallby for this suggestion but I also add that it is not in the spirit of Wikipedia's collegiate style to be come across as quite so aggressive. You could have simple suggested that we need to stress the bit about the peritoneal cavity.Graham Beards (talk) 12:10, 21 August 2024 (UTC)[reply]

Why do we use the word "pelvic cavity?" That sounds incomplete because the pelvic "cavity" is not really a cavity and it's filled with organs in a living human and we could also say that the egg was already in the pelvic cavity to begin with, since the ovaries are located inside this cavity.

İ think changing that to "peritoneal cavity" would be more desirable because firstly it's a real cavity filled with peritoneal fluid and secondly it's the place where some ectopic pregnancies occur. "Pelvic cavity" doesn't include for example, the abdominal part of the peritoneal cavity, where ectopic pregnancies are known to occur. Ferid9 (talk) 02:10, 22 August 2024 (UTC)[reply]

I used it because the source, Tortora G (2017). Tortora's Principles of Anatomy & Physiology. Hoboken, New Jersey: John Wiley & Sons, Inc. ISBN 978-1-119-38292-8. OCLC 990424568., does. I quote "Ovulation, is the rupture of the mature (graafian) follicle and the realise of the secondary oocyte into the pelvic cavity". (page 945). Graham Beards (talk) 07:15, 22 August 2024 (UTC)[reply]

See also: McEvoy A, Tetrokalashvili M. Anatomy, Abdomen and Pelvis: Female Pelvic Cavity. 2023 Jul 24. In: StatPearls [Internet]. Treasure Island (FL): StatPearls Publishing; 2024 Jan–. PMID: 30860705. Quote. "The pelvic cavity is a bowl-like structure that sits below the abdominal cavity... In females, the pelvis also houses the uterus, fallopian tubes, and ovaries." Graham Beards (talk) 13:23, 22 August 2024 (UTC)[reply]