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Lead pics

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User:Strebe I found that the world map pics are too detailed to be shown in such a resolution. What are the other alternatives? CactiStaccingCrane (talk) 17:08, 12 November 2022 (UTC)[reply]

You're missing the point: when it comes to images, the relevance is more important than everything else. Most of the article is about our planet and how it's represented, so what makes you think that a map of planet Mars would be more representative of the subject? M.Bitton (talk) 17:29, 12 November 2022 (UTC)[reply]
You are right. I will try to find maps of Earth locations instead. CactiStaccingCrane (talk) 02:17, 13 November 2022 (UTC)[reply]
Please don't create another issue. There is absolutely no need to replace anything. M.Bitton (talk) 03:09, 13 November 2022 (UTC)[reply]
There is, for those that print or read the article offline. They won't be able to see the labels and legends – crucial components of maps. CactiStaccingCrane (talk) 03:11, 13 November 2022 (UTC)[reply]
I certainly don't agree with your opinion. M.Bitton (talk) 03:16, 13 November 2022 (UTC)[reply]
Fair enough. I won't push my argument further. CactiStaccingCrane (talk) 03:18, 13 November 2022 (UTC)[reply]
CactiStaccingCrane gets at a problem that I’ve been aware of for years but haven’t done anything about. I wish people in the cartographic profession — especially academic — would take an interest in this article. The selection of maps we show in the article is arbitrary and therefore open to endless contest — not to mention, not being the most educational. I think the first map presented ought to clearly illustrate the primary elements of a map, instead of it being some 17th century piece of art that’s neither informed by modern cartographic thought, nor a dominant work cited by historians. (The only reason the van Schagen map is even there is because someone didn’t have a better article to put it into.) Maps have been constructed whose purpose is to teach about maps, rather than teach about the mapped geography, and that’s what we ought to be using if we can find one in the public domain. Most of the examples I can find are actually about teaching elements of geography instead of elements of maps (such as [1]), but there might be enough overlap for one of them to make do. Strebe (talk) 23:27, 13 November 2022 (UTC)[reply]

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big ones

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Under "Extremely large-scale maps", worth mentioning U.S. Army Corps of Engineers Bay Model? —Tamfang (talk) 02:24, 17 May 2024 (UTC)[reply]

It seems at least as notable as the others. Strebe (talk) 19:51, 17 May 2024 (UTC)[reply]

lede reversion failure

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Argument 1: "Item" is superfluous: a depiction is an "item".

Rebuttal: Refer to Hypernymy and hyponymy re item as a hypernym and visually symbolic depiction as a hyponym. An item and a depiction aren't synonymous. Thus, "A map is an item [what kind? one that...] that provides a visually symbolic depiction..."

Argument 2: "Visually" is superfluous.

Nope: Here, visually characterizes "symbolic depiction" because not all symbols are visual, not all depictions are visual, and we can neither assume that readers will click the symbolic link nor can we rely on that article as a reliable source. Any alleged superfluousness is remedied by substituting representation for depiction.

Argument 3: Spaces are not limited to three and do not need enumeration.

Sorry, but... The edited lede doesn't assert such a limitation. Instead, it identifies objects within 2-D and 3-D spaces. Any shortcoming in the edited lede is obviated by substituting "objects" for "objects".

Misc.:

  1. The "emphasizing" vebiage is an interpolation; maps don't inherently emphasize anything.
  2. The "some space" verbiage is too contextually vague to pass encyclopediac muster.
  3. The "such as objects, regions, or themes" modifying phrase is misplaced and wrongly punctuated as a parenthetic item that characterizes "space".
  4. The "region" referent is too limited since maps can correspond to locales as small as a backyard, treasure hunt route, etc.

Kent Dominic·(talk) 01:31, 12 October 2024 (UTC)[reply]

"Item" could be a hypernym of anything within a wide universe of discourse. As such, it conveys a vanishingly insignificant amount of information about the article's topic. It is a needless word to be omitted, according to Strunk's familiar maxim.
Geographical maps emphasize some things and suppress others; see cartographic generalization.
The link in your signature is malformed. I will leave it to your own erudite perspicacity to see why. Just plain Bill (talk) 10:02, 12 October 2024 (UTC)[reply]
Good point re "item". Context is key. In this case, including "item" was a stylistic way to enable keeping "symbolic" in the lede. I'll beat you to a work-around.
All maps emphasize something or else it wouldn't be on the map. Emphasizing "emphasizing" in the lede is superfluous.
The links work fine for me.
Note to all: I just posted my latest and final edit of the lede. I had wanted to link my own work to this article but couldn't justify doing so with the lede written as horridly as I initially found it. Feel free to tweak or revert the current lede to suit your own predilections as my own work now has its own, more colloquially-worded definition, i.e., "a visual representation with text and symbols that thematically depict relationships regarding elements within a given locale, region, or space." In this article, "elements" can't be substituted for "objects" since Wikipedia has no way to characterize element in the foregoing sense and elsewhere defined. The closest other words might be things or items or stuff. Kent Dominic·(talk) 12:43, 12 October 2024 (UTC)[reply]
Try using that signature link to navigate directly to your talk page. Just plain Bill (talk) 13:11, 12 October 2024 (UTC)[reply]
Works on my end. Kent Dominic·(talk) 17:43, 12 October 2024 (UTC)[reply]
Not on mine. —Tamfang (talk) 07:02, 17 October 2024 (UTC)[reply]
The present state does not match anything in the literature, contains superfluous words, and doesn’t conform to obvious usage. A map doesn’t necessarily contain text; the reference to two or three dimensions is spurious since a map may represent a space of more dimensions and an object may be of more dimensions; a visual representation is a graphic; thematically depict does not convey anything clear; regarding is the wrong word in relationships regarding: the clear, normal, meaningful term is between. I’m reverting to the original state. Meanwhile, I note that (a) the definition of map has no scholarly consensus; and (b) the definition should be one from an expert source, not a disputable contrivance of Wikipedia editors. I will search for some candidates in the meantime. Strebe (talk) 17:29, 15 October 2024 (UTC)[reply]
Looking at some of the desk literature I have at the moment:
Michael DeMers Fundamentals of Geographic Information Systems 4th edition has a definition of maps on page 59:
"The map is a model of spatial phenomena-an abstraction. It is not a miniature version of reality that is meant to show every detail of a study area."
Maribeth Price Mastering ArcGIS Pro 2nd edition on page 19 has a definition of maps as they apply to GIS:
"Maps are views that display GIS data sets together using specified symbols, labels, and so on. A map may be two dimensional or it may be visualized in three dimensions, in which case it is called a scene."
US Army Field Manual FM 3-25.26 defines maps as:
"A map is a graphic representation of a portion of the earth's surface drawn to scale, as seen from above."
William Bunge "Theoretical geography" generalizes maps as "a subset of mathematics." on page 71.
Merriam-Webster Dictionary defines map as
"a representation usually on a flat surface of the whole or a part of an area"
Therefore, I present the definition:
A map is an abstract model that represents spatial information for an area of interest. GeogSage (⚔Chat?⚔) 19:41, 15 October 2024 (UTC)[reply]
@Strebe:
The verbiage in the reversion:
  • Doesn't match anything in the literature, which is immaterial, because the point is to be descriptively accurate.
  • Contains the equivocal if not superfluous word emphasizing.
  • Doesn't conform to obvious usage.
  • Omit's the word text. Show me a map without text and I'll hand it back as picture, diagram, or illustration.
  • Contains "some space" wherein (1) "some" is a candidate for the Weasel Word of the Year award, and "space" is a rightful nominee for the Leading Polysemist in this year's Golden Raspberry Awards since space is an inaccurate link and "space" might well be mistaken as a nightclub in Ibiza.
  • Eliminates the reference to two or three dimensions without a corresponding talk page comment that acknowledges the article's hidden note about how a map may represent a space of more dimensions. The fact that an object may be of more dimensions is a moot point in the current reversion and in what was reverted.
  • Righly omits the reference to the point that "a visual representation is a graphic," which was a moot item in what was reverted.
  • Rightfully contains a reference to "themes," but does so in a way that is less cogent than "thematically depict," whose sense is semantically clear in a way that doesn't merit argument.
  • Accurately employs "regarding" in "relationships regarding," whose sense is semantically clear in a way that doesn't merit argument except to say "between" primarily entails two (etymologically derived from be + twain) while "regarding" is contextually pertinent to two or more. NOTE:The word among wouldn't suffice since its usage applies primarily to three or more while a map may apply to only two things. :::Reverting to the original state is unhelpful in the ways detailed above. Meanwhile, I (a) also acknowledge how the definition of map has no scholarly consensus, and (b) disagree that the definition should be one from an expert source unless the source and resulting lede is reasonably worded. The reversion satisfies neither of those premises. It's a disputable (i.e. because I, for one, dispute its efficacy) contrivance of Wikipedia editors' original research that lacks any accredited or cited source. Original research and a lack of cited source doesn't dismay me, but the current shortcomings of the lede sure does. Yet, as I mentioned above, I've remedied my own work with a practicable definition for map. I leave it to others to emend the current lede or eventually I might renege on having posted my latest and final edit on that definitional matter.
That being said, I'm tempted to undo your reversion even as I speak. Why? This is one of the rare instances where Just plain Bill and I seem to have reached a consensus on a lede. If so, that makes us two editors versus your one.
Kent Dominic·(talk) 21:31, 15 October 2024 (UTC)[reply]
We seem to be in the midst of a reasonably congenial work in progress with the lede. I would not call it consensus just yet. The context and application of emphasis still needs some cognizant scrutiny, for example. For the most part, for now I am content to sit with the version Strebe reverted to.
I have used orienteering maps without text. Omitting text on those maps is about avoiding giving any advantage to competitors familiar with the local language, in an international sport. Of course, that is a niche case, but the maps used are high-quality scale depictions of the terrain, sometimes including symbols marking individual boulders. I once showed one to an old field artilleryman, who said it was like getting a chopper ride over the ground in question, compared to the topographic maps he was accustomed to working with at a scale of 1:62500, or about an inch to a mile. Just a factoid for the amusement of the multitude here assembled... Just plain Bill (talk) 22:01, 15 October 2024 (UTC)[reply]
An internet search results in this example of an orienting map. I'm loath to call it a map rather than an illustration or graphic.
IMHO, the current lede sucks for the reasons given in my immediately previous post. Encyclopedia Britannica provides a much better version that defines a map as a graphic representation, drawn to scale and usually on a flat surface, of features — for example, geographical, geological, or geopolitical — of an area of the Earth or of any other celestial body. Thus, no "symbolic depiction" or "emphasizing" or "some space" verbiage. Its only shortcoming is its omission of theme or thematic, since the concept of a map is broad enough to include a mind map. On that score, I'd expect the map article to include a headnote along the lines of:
This article is about XYZ (e.g., graphic representations of an area of the Earth. For other uses, see Map (disambiguation).
The Related topics section should include a link to mind maps if an emended lede excludes theme or thematic. Kent Dominic·(talk) 23:40, 15 October 2024 (UTC)[reply]
Problems with the Britannica definition:
  • Maps are rarely "drawn" now.
  • Maps are not always to scale. There can be a variety of distortions for a variety of reasons, particularly in advertising and art.
  • Most maps to day are digital, so they are "on" computer storage and presented on a screen.
  • They don't have to be of a celestial body or the Earth, you could have a map of a space station or virtual world.
The point IS to be descriptively accurate. You ensure accuracy by basing the writing on the literature, otherwise it's original research. I could definitely make a map without text, although it would rely on the user being familiar with some symbols. GeogSage (⚔Chat?⚔) 00:33, 16 October 2024 (UTC)[reply]
The Britannica definition isn't a panacea, it's just much better than Wikipedia's lede.
  • Change "drawn" to "created."
  • Change "scale" to "variable proportions."
  • Maps are typically depicted on a flat surface regardless of how they're created yet many maps are affixed to a globe, which isn't a flat surface despite what Flat Earthers would have us believe.
  • While it's true that you could have a map of space station or virtual world, this article doesn't address those topics, hence a hatnote to exclude them is appropriate but currently omitted.
Be bold and offer your own alternative lede. It could hardly be any worse than what's there now. Kent Dominic·(talk) 01:19, 16 October 2024 (UTC)[reply]
I DID offer my own alternative lede sentence at least, along with several sources. "A map is an abstract model that represents spatial information for an area of interest." GeogSage (⚔Chat?⚔) 02:23, 16 October 2024 (UTC)[reply]
The word "drawn" does not necessarily mean a pen was involved. You could replace it with "described" though the appropriate sense of that word is slightly dated, or maybe "marked". "Created" is not really a substitute. –jacobolus (t) 15:11, 16 October 2024 (UTC)[reply]
(ec) This shows part of an orienteering map before the course is marked on it, often by the competitor after their start, in the form of circles around the control points, connected by lines to show their sequence. Typically a runner will fold the map so it shows the immediate area of interest, for convenient in-hand access while bashing through e.g. the understory in a patch of woods.
"Thematic" seems abstract, diffuse, vague, adjacent to what British speakers call waffle. Not sure how to put it in clear particular language fit for this article. I do not think the current lede is so broken that it needs immediate fixing. I do keep an eye on this page. More later, Just plain Bill (talk) 00:38, 16 October 2024 (UTC)[reply]
Thematic map is a type of map, and a very common one at that, so it isn't a particular problem in my opinion to include. I think the lede can be improved, and also have it on my watch list. I dropped by to offer sources and a proposed definition based on them. GeogSage (⚔Chat?⚔) 02:22, 16 October 2024 (UTC)[reply]
OK, good to know there is a named category for maps like that, with a Wikipedia article and all. Thanks for bringing attention to it. If the lead ends up including "themes" or "thematic", then a link to that article will be useful. Just plain Bill (talk) 00:45, 17 October 2024 (UTC)[reply]
"Thematic maps" are among the most common types of maps in existence. Formal maps produced by cartographers are, broadly speaking, going to either be reference maps or thematic maps. GeogSage (⚔Chat?⚔) 02:03, 17 October 2024 (UTC)[reply]
Show me a map without text and I'll hand it back as picture, diagram, or illustration. – As far as I can tell this is an idiosyncratic personal definition unrelated to the ordinary English meaning or common technical definitions of "map". (It is however the case that every map is also a type of picture, diagram, and illustration, all three of which are broader categories.) –jacobolus (t) 06:35, 16 October 2024 (UTC)[reply]
Mental mapping to me demonstrates that a map does not have to be a picture or illustration. Maps are models of the physical world. That's about it. GeogSage (⚔Chat?⚔) 14:19, 16 October 2024 (UTC)[reply]
While the concept of a "mental map" or "cognitive map" (I don't understand what the difference is supposed to be between those – seems like the two articles should be merged) is named by analogy, I don't think it is essential that an article titled "Map" has a definition which encompasses people's internal non-graphical representations of their local environment. Likewise we don't need to encompass every kind of mathematical function, even though these are often called "maps"; the associative arrays in computer programming, which are called "maps" based on the mathematical sense of the word; or mind maps, drawings used for generating ideas when problem solving or crafting a narrative. I think the current lead's mention of such loosely and abstractly related topics as "brain mapping", "DNA mapping", and "computer network topology mapping" seems like a serious mistake leading to a poor scope for this article. I would cut these out and focus on maps as graphical representations intended for humans to look at, primarily of geography. A section near the bottom of the article can talk about wider metaphorical applications of the word "map", but is unlikely to be relevant to the vast majority of readers coming to this article title. –jacobolus (t) 17:20, 16 October 2024 (UTC)[reply]
From a literal stand point, the mental map is a precursor to what we find in paper maps, much the same way that spoken language is the precursor to written language. People were able to first intuitively know where stuff was in relationship to other things, and then we learned to communicate those relationships to others. Later, we found various ways of recording that. For example, the Marshall Islands stick chart are not drawn and are instead used to communicate the idea to the navigators before a trip. The navigator would use their internal mental map for navigation without consulting the chart at all. This example is important because it highlights both that maps might not be "drawn" and that the purpose of some maps is to help pass one individuals mental map to another individual.
I point this out because I know the path we are on, trying to define a map, ends up in the weeds. When it comes to the map as they relate to cartography, the method used to record them is unimportant and ultimately semantical, which is why I propose the definition of "A map is an abstract model that represents spatial information for an area of interest." After that first sentence, we can get into examples, types of maps, and most common methods for creation. GeogSage (⚔Chat?⚔) 17:36, 16 October 2024 (UTC)[reply]
mental map is a precursor to what we find in paper maps, much the same way that spoken language is the precursor to written language – not really, no. Written language is a permanent record of spoken language (a verbal utterance), and both are means of communication. A "mental map" seems to be entirely internal and personal, not a form of communication at all. There's not really a "precursor to what we find in paper maps" analogous to spoken language, but you could argue that verbalized spatial instructions or a crude sketch in the dirt with a stick might qualify; the former of these (something like "go to the big tree, then turn right and walk ten steps") is not a "map" by common definitions. A stick chart (which is a picture, diagram, and illustration) is clearly a map, in just the same way that the state of an abacus is a kind of number representation, or a rebus is a form of writing. –jacobolus (t) 17:47, 16 October 2024 (UTC)[reply]
The concept of the map comes directly from our attempts to communicate, and then record, our mental maps. The first "maps" would likely be completely orally passed down and maintained in the minds of community members, and the directions like ""go to the big tree, then turn right and walk tens steps" are products derived from the model maintained in the mind of the person who is giving the directions. Think of turn by turn directions you get from Google Maps, while the directions themselves are not a map, they are the product of a model that exists in machine memory. Organic memory is no different, and the map that exists in the brains of humans is no less "real" then the map that exists on a computer. The diagrams and drawings seem to have started largely as tools for teaching those relationships and concepts. The relationship and concept though is a model that can be expressed through a variety of means. Today, actually visualizing the map is only needed for humans, machines don't necessarily need to render a visual representation to have a map of an area. The map is fundamentally the model of reality that represents spatial information. How that model is depicted is variable, and attempts to nail down an all inclusive definition will struggle with being overly specific. GeogSage (⚔Chat?⚔) 18:18, 16 October 2024 (UTC)[reply]
while the directions themselves are not a map, they are the product of a model that exists in machine memory – and neither of these is a "map". The first is a list of directions, and the second is a geographical computer database. The reason this matters is because encyclopedia articles need a clearly defined and moderately constrained scope in order to be given a readable narrative structure and usefully present information readers are looking for. This particular article should limit its scope to graphical representations because if we lead with "experts disagree about definitions of 'map' so we're going to include any kind of information stored using any possible representation", then the article's scope starts overlapping with knowledge, information, data, data storage, etc., and the expanded scope doesn't help to explain to readers what maps are, or their history, usage, design, etc. An article called "Map" can possibly support short sections about maps of imaginary places, maps of non-geographical subjects, computer geographical databases, non-graphical "maps" as a generalized concept, "mental mapping", etc. at the bottom of the article, but they are not necessary or particularly important, and should not influence the basic description in the lead and top few sections. –jacobolus (t) 18:29, 16 October 2024 (UTC)[reply]
Here we get into semantics of what makes a map a map, but I assure you mental maps are maps. Kenneth Fields Cartography defines them as "Intangible maps that we form with our minds." Much of the research that has gone into cartography over the past several millennia has been on how best to convert our mental maps into physical ones, which is reflected when you search "mental map" on Google Scholar. Again, I see no reason to avoid mentioning maps as objects in the lede, but the unifying definition of a map when you reduce it down is that it is a model of spatial information. Those models are abstractions of reality that can make use of a variety of symbols and text to convey the underlying information. They can be used to depict places of interest, such as the surface of Earth or other celestial object, can be static or dynamic, and on 2D or 3D surfaces. Please let me know where you're getting your definition, cause I've presented several that I based mine on. If we look at the ESRI dictionary and look up map, it seems to me like you're using something along the lines of their 2nd definition "[cartography] A collection of graphic symbols used to represent a place." I'm likely using something closer to their first one "[geography] A spatial representation of a location." Search for "a map is a model" and you'll see sources that back the word choice of model. GeogSage (⚔Chat?⚔) 20:58, 16 October 2024 (UTC)[reply]
You can personally consider that a "map" if you want to, and a comprehensive dictionary might include a sense of the word "map" encompassing such usage, but defining every basic term in such a broad and hand-wavy way that it also includes every vague imaginary example is misleading and unhelpful to encyclopedia readers. We don't need the definition of "friend" to include my imaginary pet unicorn, the definition of "dwelling" to include my unicorn's stable on the moon, the definition of "law" to include my proposal that every child in the world should be legally entitled to ice cream once a week, the definition of "food" to include my beautiful mud pies, etc.
Wikipedia articles should be contained to each be about a single topic with a clear scope, and topics should be matched to titles in a way that helps readers understand the topic being discussed. In the current case, the article's scope is clear and more or less fine, matching readers' expectations, so the obvious way forward is to adopt a definition based on expert discourse which matches that scope, and then optionally discuss alternative definitions in the article (perhaps in a footnote).
Language in general is much more fluid than Wikipedia article titles/lead sections, and you are of course welcome to adopt whatever idiosyncratic definitions you like for every term when you write your own book. –jacobolus (t) 23:41, 16 October 2024 (UTC)[reply]
My personal opinion is really not what matters, I'm literally saying that the literature on cartography and maps considers this topic in excruciating detail. I'm offering some suggestions based on that literature, while you have given me your opinion on what you personally consider a map. Like my personal opinion on the matter, yours does not matter. Back your assertion with citations. For example, the book Map Use: Reading, Analysis, Interpretation (which is one of the best textbooks on the topic in my opinion) divides maps into "Mental maps" and "cartographic maps" on the literal first page of the introduction. This book defines maps as:
"a spatial representation of the environment that is presented graphically. By representation, we mean something that stands for the environment, portrays it, and is both a likeness and a simplified model of the environment. The definition encompasses such diverse maps as those on walls, those that appear ephemerally on a computer screen and then are gone, and those held solely in the minds eye."
Search "maps are models" on Google Scholar and you'll see the word choice is not coming from thin air.
To be blunt, I don't think you really know what you are talking about. Please cite sources and present counter definitions. GeogSage (⚔Chat?⚔) 03:29, 17 October 2024 (UTC)[reply]
Here's a cute direct response to your suggestion about "mental maps": Andrews, J. (1996). "What Was a Map? The Lexicographers Reply". Cartographica. 33 (4): 1–12. doi:10.3138/nj8v-8514-871t-221k.
"Almost throughout its history the word 'map' has been used in a metaphorical sense by poets and other imaginative writers, and regular sub-uses eventually became established in technical and academic writing for various classes of non-geographical phenomena. Some of these were also metaphorical: a cognitive psychologist's 'mental map,' for instance, is no more truly cartographic than the black sheep of a family is truly ovine."
–jacobolus (t) 06:24, 17 October 2024 (UTC)[reply]
A mental map is not a cartographic map, as I stated, Map Use: Reading, Analysis, Interpretation divides maps into "mental maps" and "cartographic maps." This does align with the quote you give, a "a cognitive psychologist's 'mental map,' for instance, is no more truly cartographic than the black sheep of a family is truly ovine" in that mental maps are a distinct category from cartographic maps. This does not change that mental maps are in fact a type of map, and that modern literature includes them as part of the understanding for how users interact with cartographic maps. Without a mental map, you would struggle to make sense of a cartographic one, and could likely never produce a cartographic one at all. It was a cute response though, you're right! GeogSage (⚔Chat?⚔) 16:59, 17 October 2024 (UTC)[reply]

Definition of Map

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The International Cartographic Association defines map:

A map is a symbolised representation of geographical reality, representing selected features or characteristics, resulting from the creative effort of its author’s execution of choices, and is designed for use when spatial relationships are of primary relevance.

This Wikipedia article is about cartographic maps, not other kinds, as we can see by its content. The ICA is as authoritative a body as exists for the subject. The ICA has already done the work of distilling the definition as a consensus of thousands of authorities. (The membership numbers in the thousands, and while they did not all contribute directly, the definition was adopted by their collective assent.) I see no value in arguing about the definition, both because anything we come up with as editors is irrelevant as WP:OR and because a more plausible authority is nothing we will identify. For the lede, I suggest,

A map is a symbolised representation of geographical reality, representing selected features or characteristics, resulting from the creative effort of its author’s execution of choices, and is designed for use when spatial relationships are of primary relevance. While there are other kinds of artifacts that are called “maps” (see disambiguation), this definition originates from the International Cartographic Association and pertains to the kind of maps described in this article.

Strebe (talk) 21:34, 16 October 2024 (UTC)[reply]

I would use US spelling, though, given the article’s convention. Strebe (talk) 02:35, 17 October 2024 (UTC)[reply]
If the article's topic remains limited to cartographic maps, then it should be pointed out in the hatnote or, alternatively, in the lede paragraph in some iteration of what you suggested. The ICA definition, however, impresses me no more than the current lede. Specifically, I cringe at (1) the redundancy of "representation" and modifying phrase with its "representing" verbiage; (2) the "representing..." phrase is semantically infirm as it grammatically corresponds to "reality" contrary to the implicit intent of inarticulately characterizing "representation"; (3) the run-on nature of the sentence makes no easy work of determining that "its" refers to "map" rather than "reality"; (4) the definition is limited to "geographic reality," which excludes its application to a virtual world, to echo jacobolus's concern; (5) the "designed for use" verbiage is pretty dispensable; (6) the "when spatial relationships are of primary relevance" verbiage would be useful if there were an indication of relevance to XYZ [i.e., the users? the author? a certain purpose?].
Alternative wording: A map is a symbolised depiction of selected features or characteristics within a geographical area or place. It is designed to portray spatial relationships that are of primary relevance to a cartographic purpose. Kent Dominic·(talk) 02:44, 17 October 2024 (UTC)[reply]
Instead of "symbolized depiction," I'd use the word "model" and move symbolized depiction to the second sentence, so alternatively: A map is a model of selected features or characteristics within a geographical area or place. They depict spatial phenomena through the use of symbols, and are usually presented graphically. GeogSage (⚔Chat?⚔) 03:53, 17 October 2024 (UTC)[reply]
"Model" is equivocal. It evokes a precursory template or a scaled down replica. Kent Dominic·(talk) 04:10, 17 October 2024 (UTC)[reply]
So is "depiction," as it excludes mental maps, which are not an insignificant portion of the literature. A model is not a replica, and if something is scaled down it is not a replica. Model is the precise term, and if you look above I can offer a significant amount of literature to back that, check Google Scholar for "maps are models" or . Wikipeida has pages for "Scientific modelling", "Conceptual model", "Scientific visualization", that would be relevant to what a map is. GeogSage (⚔Chat?⚔) 05:38, 17 October 2024 (UTC)[reply]
Your reply serves to emphasize how "model" is polysemic in a way that isn't particularly useful. "Depiction" is the right word pertinent to any kind of map whether of the cartographic, mind map, fingerprint ridge pattern, or building evacuation route variety, to name a few. "Representation" is a hypernym of depiction, so it's less precise and could be mistaken to mean a map is "a statement or account made to influence opinion or action" or "a dramatic production or performance". Pity the reader who does a Wiki search on "representation" (or, moreover, on "model"). Kent Dominic·(talk) 12:38, 17 October 2024 (UTC)[reply]
Delayed reaction: I'd be fine with "A map is a modular depiction..." type of qualification.
Note: Somewhere there's a Wiki guidance that says a lede definition isn't subject to the WP:OR rule. Since there's no consensus among published sources re what a map is in a hypernymous sense, its the Wiki editors' job to say what this article comprehends concerning its discussion of maps in whatever broad or narrow manner is agreed.--Kent Dominic·(talk) 12:53, 17 October 2024 (UTC)[reply]
Modular is defined as "employing or involving a module or modules as the basis of design or construction," while module is "each of a set of standardized parts or independent units that can be used to construct a more complex structure, such as an item of furniture or a building." These are not the same thing as a model. If model is to vague, it could be preference as "abstract model." Cartographers are making models of reality, using scale, projection, and symbols to simplify, store, analyze, and represent spatial data. When the word model is used in reference to mathematics and statistics, no one is worried about it being polysemic. I'm using it in the same way. The definition of "depiction," "a representation in words or images of someone or something," even excluding mental maps. Tactile maps exist, and a map can be stored on a computer drive and not be depicted at all until a user pushes it. Automated systems use maps that don't have any depiction that would be meaningful to a human. In all these cases, the map is a model of reality, a simplified abstraction that is missing many details but which contains enough to be useful. The reference to model is particularly useful in maps when it is combined with E.P. Box's quote "All models are wrong, but some are useful," as it helps to communicate to the users that all maps lie, something we need to assert more clearly. Models are central concepts in science, and the maps as models are part of how we define cartography as a science. Other scientific disciplines are not concerned with the word model being polysemic, it is the accurate word choice, and in the case of cartography I can cite several sources. GeogSage (⚔Chat?⚔) 16:36, 17 October 2024 (UTC)[reply]
Neither map nor modular nor model, etc., has any intrinsic meaning. They only mean whatever they're agreed to mean. Accordingly, the hardcorp semanticist in me disagrees that "a map can be stored on a computer drive." Digital info re a map is encoded & stored. The map depicted on a screen vanishes when not in use. There's no "map" in your computer drive, only 0,1 sequences.
Before offering any substantive language as an alternative to the current lede, you might want to consider the linguistic difference between a map or a model (i.e., as tangible nouns), and mapping or modeling as gerunds (i.e., as the carrying of processes or activities relating to a noun).
The "maps are models" assertion is every much a false flag as is maps are depictions or maps are representations or maps are portrayals or maps are things or even, corresponding to my first edit of the article, maps are items. Kent Dominic·(talk) 19:20, 17 October 2024 (UTC)[reply]
This just in: a map is an illustration; a map is an object; a map is a symbolic depiction; and so it goes. Kent Dominic·(talk) 19:33, 17 October 2024 (UTC)[reply]
Words have no meaning and everything is subjective, yes. The concept of making a model is very deeply ingrained in cartography and GIS. A map stored on a hard drive exists in the same way that a map stored on a printed piece of paper that is rolled up in an archive exists. The paper in the archive is just smudged pigment on plant fiber until a human looks at it and gives it meaning, and just like words are subjective, the smudges on the paper are as well. When a cartographer creates a map, they are creating a model to represent reality, in the scientific sense. The model can be represented in a number of ways, including visually, through tactile representations, and in ways only interpretable by machines. The cartographer makes choices that can be understood by the intended user to, and there isn't necessarily one correct way to do this. The finished products are only one of many possible outcomes from the same model, and the model is only one of many possible for a given area. We might as well just exclude all dynamic web maps and say it needs to be printed on a printing press in the Champaign region of France to be a map, otherwise it's just sparkling cartography. GeogSage (⚔Chat?⚔) 21:54, 17 October 2024 (UTC)[reply]
The Champaign region is in Illinois! —Tamfang (talk) 05:08, 18 October 2024 (UTC)[reply]
I don't agree that starting an article with a direct quote, that isn't in quotations, is a good move. There are plenty of sources out there that can be brought in on this. I disagree that the article should be limited to "cartographic maps," otherwise the article should be renamed to "cartographic maps." GeogSage (⚔Chat?⚔) 03:34, 17 October 2024 (UTC)[reply]
So far, the article is limited to cartographic maps. Whether it should be is a matter of consensus.
Your comment about quotes is spot on. Strebe's suggested lede may be tantamount to copyright infringement that runs afoul of afair use exception. If not, it's clearly an instance of plagiarism. Kent Dominic·(talk) 04:26, 17 October 2024 (UTC)[reply]
It is neither copyright infringement nor plagiarism to quote a cited source. –jacobolus (t) 15:15, 17 October 2024 (UTC)[reply]
The issue from above related to Geog Sage's disagreement with starting an article with a direct quote, that isn't in quotations. I seconded that diagreement in opposing Strebe's suggestion to put an unattributed quote in the lede, which is a copyright infringement liability if not properly quoted and cited. Putting such verbiage in quotes and citing it, however, runs afoul of the Wiki guidance re WP:UNDUE since the quote is merely one of 300 or more conflicting map definitions out there. Kent Dominic·(talk) 17:59, 17 October 2024 (UTC)[reply]
Quote marks are not a legal matter. As I gave it, the source is attributed. The WP:UNDUE reasoning seems incoherent to me: Any definition would be “undue” by that reasoning. I don’t see how any solution could better conform to Wikipedia’s guidelines (or basic sense) than to quote the largest professional body on the topic. Meanwhile anything synthesized by Wikipedia editors would merely contribute to the “undue” profusion, be the subject of endless arguments, and violate policy by through WP:OR and WP:SYNTH because there is no professional agreement for us to paraphrase. If we were to manage somehow to agree on an extant definition but paraphrase it, that also seems highly likely to result in endless arguments, since, for example, I have not agreed with any points that Kent Dominic has made here, whether about content or word choice, and this appears to be due to durable differences in beliefs and thought processes.
While I do not think it is necessary, I am happy to petition for explicit consent from the ICA to use their definition. As an educational body, I’m sure they would be pleased to grant it. Strebe (talk) 19:52, 17 October 2024 (UTC)[reply]
For the lede, you suggested:
A map is a symbolised representation of geographical reality, representing selected features or characteristics, resulting from the creative effort of its author’s execution of choices, and is designed for use when spatial relationships are of primary relevance. While there are other kinds of artifacts that are called “maps” (see disambiguation), this definition originates from the International Cartographic Association and pertains to the kind of maps described in this article.
The first sentence is quoted material absent quotation marks. The second sentence's verbiage re "originates from" doesn't make it clear that the quote is a verbatim rendering of ICA's definition. Wikipedia doesn't need ICA consent to use its definition. Fair use doctrine obviates such consent. Not using quotation marks is the problem. It gives the appearance that it's Wikipedia's original work. Yet, making it a direct quote with a proper cite (rather than a link to the source) solves the infringement issue but doesn't cure the shortcomings of the quote itself. Paraphrasing the quote, with a proper footnote, would do the trick.
You offer a unique perspective on what WP:UNDUE means. It requires a fair representation of "all significant viewpoints that have been published by reliable sources, in proportion to the prominence of each viewpoint in those sources." (Italics in original.) Whether ICA is the largest professional body on the topic isn't on point. There are countless other reputable sources whose conflicting definitions have varying degrees of merit. I'd have the same complaint about quoting any source in the lede. It gives the impression that Wikipedia is picking sides or promoting a particular viewpoint.
Since the ICA definition is grammatically infirm in the ways I pointed out above, editors here would be right to paraphrastically tweak it so that it makes good semantic sense. That's our job. Citing the ICA as the source is part & parcel of the Wiki guidance against WP:OR. Rest assured that if a Wikipedia article quotes the largest professional body on a given topic, and the quote itself is semantically or grammatically flawed, I have at it when the flaw comes to my attention.
By way of analogy, it seems you'd be pleased with a lede in the Wikipedia article on Health Care by saying 'Health care is a fundamental human good because it affects our opportunity to pursue life goals, reduces our pain and suffering, helps prevent premature loss of life, and provides information needed to plan for our lives", and citing the American Medical society for that quote. To that I'd say the current lede in Health care is infinitely concise, as synthesized by Wikipedia editors, in summarizing what the article is about. Our editing task here is to do the same re whatever the consensus map article is or winds up being.
Wikipedia's second pilar is to avoid advocacy. Quoting and citing the ICA in the lede gives the appearance that the article is about what the ICA considers maps to be exclusive of the other 300 definitions by other putatively reliable sources. It also raise the question - if not the suspicion - that an ICA agent, employee, or other affiliated entity had a hand in composing an article consistent with its perspective. That's a Wikipedia no-no.
In short, ICA's run-on sentence, narrow comprehension of maps as corresponding to reality (i.e., excluding Geog Sage's concern obout virtual worlds) and the dicombobulated syntax that involves "reality... resulting in" is more than enough to make say writing isn't the ICA's strong suit in this case, to say nothing of the WP:UNDUE issue involved. Kent Dominic·(talk) 07:19, 18 October 2024 (UTC)[reply]
otherwise the article should be renamed to "cartographic maps." – I think you fundamentally misunderstand how titles and articles' scope work on Wikipedia. See Wikipedia:Article titles especially § Precision, and Wikipedia:Disambiguation especially § Naming the specific topic articles and § Is there a primary topic?. It is entirely reasonable for an article scoped to discuss "cartographic maps" to be called "Map", since map is the common name for them and they are the most common referent for the word map. Wikipedia articles are not dictionary entries, and do not need to interpret every title expansively as a word, but only need to clearly cover their topical scope.
If you want to make a new separate article about non-cartographic or more general subjects that might possibly be called maps, you are welcome to make one called Map (cognitive science) or Map (philosophy) or whatever, or even to add a (hopefully not too long) section somewhere near the bottom of this article explaining how more general kinds of artifacts or concepts are sometimes considered "maps" by analogy by cartographic theorists or philosophers. –jacobolus (t) 15:15, 17 October 2024 (UTC)[reply]
Among the editors who've commented on what the scope of this article should be, Geog Sage seems to be the only one who favors a broad brush treatment of whatever a map is defined to be. Such an opinion currently conflicts with the article as currently constituted since the History section deals with only History of cartography, not derivative categories of maps.
From an encyclopediac standpoint, Geog Sage's preference is the hardest road to hoe. It might be reasonably managed, however, by a lede paragraph along the lines of:
"A map, in its broadest sense, is an ABC that represents XYZ. There are various subcategories of maps, including cartographic maps and various other maps that use analogous mapping ABCs [i.e., strategies, processes, etc.].
Types of maps______________________________________________
Cartographic maps
Main article: Cartographic map
Blah, blah blah in summary of the current article moved to the newly created Cartographic maps article.
Mind maps
Main article: Mind map
Blah, ,blah blah in summary of that article.
XYZ maps
Main article: Map (cognitive science)
or
Main article: Map (philosophy)
or whatever.
Kent Dominic·(talk) 18:51, 17 October 2024 (UTC)[reply]
The cartographic process
I agree with this approach more or less, but I'd rather expand here then make a bunch of spinoff pages. It isn't really as broad as it seems, just a perspective on cartography that is a bit more dynamic then a pirate with their rolled up map that has a big red X. While this may not be in the same school of thought pushed by modern critical cartographers (we don't want to open that can of worms), I lean towards the Map communication model. Essentially, Cartographic maps are used to communicate information and are used to inform a users mental map. The mental map is used by a cartographer to help them construct their cartographic map. This process informs the Cartographic design process. As I stated, the Map use and analysis textbook includes both types of map on the first page in the construction of a broad definition, which is largely because both are necessary as long as humans are the ones using our maps. As we already have a page for cartography and mental map, we would just need some sections here. Of bigger concern to me on this page is that it is lacking a section on thematic map. I believe we can propose a move some content on the Cartography page to satisfy this, specifically the section "map types." Then just elaborate on it. That or we could borrow from it.
I would suggest:
"A map, in its broadest sense, is an ABC that represents XYZ. There are various subcategories of maps, including cartographic maps and various other maps that use analogous mapping ABCs [i.e., strategies, processes, etc.]."
==Types of maps==
===Mental maps===
Main article: Mental mapping
===Cartographic maps===
Main article: Cartography
====General vs. thematic cartography====
====Topographic vs. topological==== GeogSage (⚔Chat?⚔) 19:46, 17 October 2024 (UTC)[reply]
This whole "broadest sense" text would best fit, if anywhere, in a section near the very bottom of the article called something like "Broader definitions". Displacing the current article to the title Cartographic maps in favor of an extremely vague and high-level category is in my opinion inappropriate and seems very unlikely to achieve consensus of Wikipedians. –jacobolus (t) 23:54, 17 October 2024 (UTC)[reply]
I understand that you're committed to asserting the definition of maps as you understand them. Please understand that your understanding is a bit narrow. Maps are more then just ink on paper or pixels on a screen, and it is very simple to reflect that. The page needs a lot of restructuring, and probably should be expanded to cover more then just western 20th and 21st century ideas on the matter. The "types" is pretty haphazard. It could stand for a few different sections on theoretical approaches to them, for example as much as I personally don't like it, Critical cartography has it's own views on what a map is that are not the same as most cartographers that make maps for industry or quantitative research. Map is a high level broad topic, and narrowing it down serves very little purpose. GeogSage (⚔Chat?⚔) 01:57, 18 October 2024 (UTC)[reply]
The point is not choosing between, "asserting", or exploring definitions of words (wikt:Map is ready for your contributions), but rather making an article about each encyclopedic topic, keeping the scope of each encyclopedia article clear, giving each topic a clear name which describes it, and associating each name to the topic readers are most likely to be looking for with hatnotes pointing at a disambiguation page containing other articles which might be confused with it.
Everyone here agrees Wikipedia should clearly have an article about what you call "cartographic maps", so the question (inre your personal proposals) is what that article should be titled, and the longstanding consensus (and I think clearly correct choice in light of Wikipedia policies and consensus conventions) is to title that article Map. You are welcome to make a separate article about what you have already admitted is a separate topic. If you think "Map" is also the best title for that article, then you can add a parenthetical qualifier, as I recommended above.
Since the scope of this article is "cartographic maps", a definition employed should be one which describes "cartographic maps"; alternate definitions describing other types of things (mathematical function maps, graph theory maps, computer programming maps, mind maps, mental maps, DNA maps, analogical map–territory relation, &c. &c.) belong at other article(s). If you think other topics are encyclopedic, then you should get started writing new articles about them, instead of proposing taking existing articles about obviously encyclopedic topics and rewriting them to change the topic. –jacobolus (t) 15:01, 18 October 2024 (UTC)[reply]
Well-stated. That brings us back to how my initial edit's "thematic elements" verbiage was ill-considered as I hadn't then read the full article. To reiterate, my initial interest had less to do with defining map in its broadest sense but to emend the lede's grammar and carry forward its topical statement, which included themes. The reversion of my initial edit restores the initial lede's incompatibility of the unqualified mention of "themes" and the article's limited treatment of cartographic maps.
If you missed it, I had wanted to link my own work to this article but couldn't justify doing so with the lede's syntax as horridly as I initially found it. My own work now has its own, more colloquially-worded definition, i.e., "a visual representation with text and symbols that thematically depict relationships regarding elements within a given locale, region, or space." That definition pertains solely to my work's one mention of "map" in the sense of a road map, not to all cartographic maps, and not to maps as a hypernym for every variety of maps.
Beyond defining map for its one-off mention in my work, I have little my interest in characterizing maps in either the narrow or broad sense of the word. My prolixity on this talk page pains me as much as anyone else who reads the entirety of the comments I've posted here, and I leave it to editors empassioned on the topic to address all of the shortcomings I've ID'd. Kent Dominic·(talk) 16:56, 18 October 2024 (UTC)[reply]
"Everyone here" is like three editors, and the opinions of editors don't matter when it comes to topics in the outside literature, sources do. The current article is extremely limited, and likely does need a massive overhaul. The scope of this article is "maps." "Cartographic maps" are definitely what most people think of, but what I've tried to say repeatedly is when understanding cartographic maps, the map reading process, and the cartographic design process, mental maps are important. When you read a map, you are informing your mental map. Without the ability to visualize things in your minds eye, visualizations are worthless. Symbolization, text, and the mathematical relationships all exist to further the understanding of the users of a map. Furthermore, cartographic maps are a not as clear cut as most people think, especially as they include dynamic and static map. This isn't an issue of "an article for cartographic maps, an article for mental maps," the issue is to understand the history and theory of cartographic maps mentioning mental maps would be important, and this can be easily included with minimal effort by using a broad rather then narrow definition of map. The theory around maps has a lot of content that extends beyond "Ink smudged on a paper by a Great Ape." Increasingly, what constitutes a map in public perception will change, as can be seen in Robotic mapping, where the map isn't necessarily rendered for a human to look at. There are other cultures that have their own cartographic traditions, and this article is heavily Western centric. It doesn't even discuss multiple Western theoretical views on a map, instead it really does none of them justice and seems to have its own original approach. In the past century, we have made massive strides in thematic maps (these include ALL choropleth maps, cartograms, Proportional symbol maps, Dot distribution maps, and Flow maps), which are not reflected in this article. The "types of maps" listed are definitely haphazardly included, Electronic, Climatic, Extraterrestrial, Topological, General, and Extremely large maps are included, but I don't know why these are the examples and they seem to just be grabbed at random. This list should be updated to mirror some literatures list, and could be much more comprehensive. I don't really understand the resistance to making an article better to reflect literature. It looks like it was written by someone from 1950 wrote the bulk of it, and someone from the 1950s without a strong understanding of cartography at that. This suggestion is perfectly clear, and more importantly accurate to what the outside literature says, and well within the scope of the term "map." GeogSage (⚔Chat?⚔) 17:31, 18 October 2024 (UTC)[reply]
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