Talk:Devon/Archive 1

This is an archive of past discussions about Devon. Do not edit the contents of this page. If you wish to start a new discussion or revive an old one, please do so on the current talk page.

Archive 1

possibly add Devon motto. not official, but on all the road signs upon entering the county, the phrase used is "Keep Devon Shipshape" (i live there, i know)

Please don't do that. It would be like saying "Please Drive Slowly" is the motto of evey village in the county, or that "Keep Britain Tidy" is the unofficial national anthem - Sakurambo 10:38, 9 May 2006 (UTC)

The official motto from the Devon coat of arms is the Latin 'Auxilio Divino' - 'by divine aid'

"Perhaps most notably, the last successful military invasion of Britain, the arrival of William of Orange to launch the Glorious Revolution of 1688, took place at Torquay."

This sounds a bit of a mess. He was invited by many wealthy and powerful people (in London and England generally) and fairly welcome, (compared to the dictator James II etc..). Invasion is too stronger a term.

- William of Orange landed at Brixham and not Torquay on the opposite side of Torbay. (appears the article has already been corrected) Quigabyte 05:03, 25 September 2006 (UTC)

There seems to be no mention of this UNESCO World Heritage Site - I'll drop a bit in before the primroses at the top - and ask that other readers look at its position (here if brief I think - or Geology if expanded) and to check they agree with any links. Thank you.

GraemeLeggett had the good idea of linking MPs names with their constituencies - but there seems to be a standard layout similar for each county and this would be breaking a pattern - but seems a good idea. Shall we do it for Devon? By adding a number in brackets after each MPs name relating to the map. Or is this breaking any rules? I'll amend Graeme's 'Exeter' draft after 'Bradshaw' to show as an example for now... --Tony in Devon 11:27, 14 September 2006 (UTC)

I have realised that the MPs names do not tie in with the lists below - my mistake. So I will delete my (1) after Bradshaw's name.--Tony in Devon 18:10, 27 September 2006 (UTC)

I think it's time there was a wikiproject:Devon up and running. Anyone interested, come to my talkpage and we'll sort something out. Totnesmartin 16:02, 11 December 2006 (UTC)

I'm definitely interested, but likely to be low-intensity given different projects, and am currently stalking any Devon discussion at all anywhere. I've written at totnesmartin's talk page - and am continuing to wander without a home...Stevebritgimp 21:44, 17 December 2006 (UTC) Also as a bit of a drum-beater, there is a 'Wikipedians in Devon' category people can add to their user page, and it may be of help to get things going - I've added myself. Stevebritgimp 22:02, 17 December 2006 (UTC)

The place for proposed projects is this yer [1]. Totnesmartin 22:08, 28 December 2006 (UTC) (forgot to sign again aaargh)

The project is now on: Wikipedia: Wikiproject Devon Totnesmartin 18:26, 2 January 2007 (UTC)

I removed this comment, but there is some basis of truth in it - see the entry in pasty for November 2006. Might be worth adding, possibly as a trivia item, rather than Devon as a descriptor? regards, Lynbarn 22:46, 11 February 2007 (UTC)

Do people really believe that the green and white colours are 'those popularly identified with Devon?' Surely most devonians know that those colours were chosen purely because of the efforts of Plymouth Argyle fans to have a flag in their colours? (Sir Norris)

Devon's Rugby Union team play in Green and White. The flag was chosen by popular poll, and there is no evidence of it being driven by soccer supporters. Dewnans 12:18, 4 April 2007 (UTC)

I would say the appeal is broader than just Argyle. The question would follow, why does Argyle have Green, Black and White as its colours? The original colours of the team I believe were mostly Red. I don't think anyone can prove a chicken or egg here, and it wouldn't really matter if they could. I would agree that Green is a Devon colour, like it's an Ireland colour. Stevebritgimp 23:35, 4 April 2007 (UTC)

I've taken out the bit where it says the flag is dedicated to St. Piran, as we all know it is'nt, this is more relevant to the Cornish Flag. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 82.69.102.39 (talk) 09:40, 13 April 2009 (UTC)

As promised, my edit summary:

• I have rewritten the introduction to be a general summary of the article, rather than random facts, some of which I'd question whether are notable enough to be on this article at all, let alone in the introduction.
• Tried to combine related sentences in paragraphs throughout the article -- more work needed on this.
• Expanded economy section with more statistics, and moved table to subpage -- that page needs expanding, and more stats.
• Added info on representation to politics, and moved out of place info about a land owner to economy.
• Turned list of settlements into prose -- this needs expanding along the same lines as what I've done so far. It shouldn't just be a list of places with no info about them, and if there's not much interesting to say about a town it doesn't have to be mentioned here.
• Combined flag and coat of arms -- I thought the amount of info about the coat of arms was a little excessive and in places verbose. I dropped the sentence about the arms being transfered in the Local government act of 1972 altogether, for example, as it's a bit of an obscure technical detail.
• Moved list of places of interest to List of places in Devon, per WP:UK geo guidelines. Many of these places are already mentioned in prose form in context, such as in the history and physical geography sections.
• Cut external links which were about individual districts/towns and individual topics which have sub-articles (they belong on those more specific articles) as they were getting a little out of control. Wikipedia is not a web directory.

Still to do:

• Prosify culture section, move the list of residents paragraph out of the history section and prosify the list of people (probably split it up, and include people in the sections relevant to their careers).
• Split up "Devon as a descriptor" -- a "misc" header if ever I saw one -- into the relevant sections.

I'll get to work on that later this week. There's lots of good info here, and it shouldn't take much to pull it up to GA quality. Joe D (t) 00:04, 4 April 2007 (UTC)

At the article Tregear, New South Wales it is stated:

The suburb takes its name from a village in Devon, England, the home of the Lethbridge family.

Is/was there a locality called Tregear in Devon? It isn't included in the list of localities.

Thanks for any advice / assistance,Garrie 22:19, 13 May 2007 (UTC)

Sounds Cornish to me. I'll look it up for you. Totnesmartin 17:26, 15 May 2007 (UTC)

I was right, It's roughly in between Newquay and Truro - in Cornwall, our much-loved neighbour. Totnesmartin 17:31, 15 May 2007 (UTC)

I just reverted an addition by User:193.62.42.132. There might be some useful information in there, but it first needs to be edited for verifiability and a neutral point of view. Here it is if you want to pick over it:

Devon's best coastline and beaches are found at the Bideford Bay coast, which stretches from Bull Point just west of Ilfracombe to awesome Hartland Point.

• On what basis is this Devon's "best" coastline?

Bideford Bay is Devon's largest bay, and also the largest bay in the West Country.

• *cough* Lyme Bay *cough*

Bideford Bay boasts clean blue water, white sand beaches (at Woolacombe, Croyde, Saunton and Westward Ho!), exhilirating Red sandstone cliff and headland scenery such as Baggy Point, picture postcard fishing villages such as Appledore and Clovelly as well as the occassional visiting basking shark and dolphin. Bideford Bay faces westwards, which means a generous swell fron the Atlantic produces impressive surf on its beaches. The Bideford Bay coastline is very similar to the Gower Peninsula across the Bristol Channel in Wales (they both have the same carboniferous and Red sandstone cliffs), and ...

• Wikipedia is not a tourist brochure.

... a proposal has been put forward by North Devon council to have a permanent ferry operating from Ilfracombe and Swansea, 20 miles north of Devon.

• Can someone provide a reference for this?

This will be a link between the two finest coastlines in the U.K. - Devon's Bideford Bay and the Gower peninsula in Wales.

• See WP:NPOV.

-- Sakurambo 桜ん坊 16:27, 15 May 2007 (UTC)

"Despite common usage, especially as regards cream teas, Devon has never been known as Devonshire. The addition of the suffix is sometimes attributed to the existence of the Duke of Devonshire, resident in Derbyshire, which is said (although hard evidence cannot be found) to have been a mistake in the making of the original letters patent for the Duchy. This mistake may have been clerical, or a direct mistake of the King (James I), whose word would have been beyond question in that era."

Actually this is almost certainly rubbish. I have seen references in the Anglo-Saxon Chronicle to Defena-scir. It's far old than this. --MacRusgail 22:41, 18 June 2007 (UTC)

Do you have a link or reference point? There is a fair body of opinion to this... If there is some good evidence to the contrary it would be good to see Owain.davies 07:45, 19 June 2007 (UTC)

Sorry, but Devon HAS been known as Devonshire - there are countless references in historical literature, even carved in stone. Whether it was official or not, people have referred to it in that way, and FWIW, I feel the whole paragraph should be disregarded. I did put in an explanation about Devonshire - back in November, IIRC, but that seems to have been removed subsequently. Regards, Lynbarn 07:59, 19 June 2007 (UTC)

Not disputing that - but are the historical references before or after the reign of James I? If there are good references to it BEFORE then, then it's valid to get rid of the sentence (or rather adapt it so that confusion is removed- debunk the myth, so to speak), but if the references only post date this time, then it supports the argument. We just need some refs. Owain.davies 08:42, 19 June 2007 (UTC)

(Just to quibble -- finding more post-James references in no way "supports" the argument -- it just fails to refute it. Doops | talk 21:18, 21 June 2007 (UTC))

Norman Davies, The Isles, A History P207, mentions Dumnonia becoming Defensascir or Devonshire, in around the 8th Cent. AD. He cites a source, Susan Pearce, The Kingdom of Dumnonia, (Padstow 1978), but I don't know if that's for Defensascir, Kerno or both. There must be a source somewhere with Devonshire in English or Anglo-Saxon prior to James I.Stevebritgimp 21:12, 21 June 2007 (UTC)

Extracts from the Chronicle. Not so hot on Old English myself, but presumably "Defenan" is the dative of "Defena".

1. "Her Ceorl aldormon gefeaht wiþ hæþene men min Defenascire æt Wicganbeorge..."
2. "7 þæs ilcan wintra wæs Inwæres broþur 7 Healfdenes on Westseaxum on Defenascire mid .xxiii. scipum"
3. "foran ða þanon west oþ þæt hy coman to Defenan" Click here for text --MacRusgail 11:05, 25 June 2007 (UTC)

on the basis of the chronicle extracts, and earlier comments, I move to delete the entire paragraph - it is inaccurate in parts, duplicates information in others, and may even mislead. Regards, Lynbarn 12:19, 25 June 2007 (UTC)

I came here to complain about the same passage, and the Chronicle bit settles it for me. Here's a translation of each of these occurrences:

1. Here lord Ceorl accompanied by the men of Devonshire fought against heathen men at Wicganbeorge
2. And that same winter was Inwaer's and Healfdene's brother among the West-Saxons in Devonshire with 23 ships;
3. they went west from there until they came to Devon

Anyway, maybe there's a larger issue here. It does seem that many Devonians object rather strongly to any use "Devonshire" in a modern context. Perhaps that is something to note in the article? --Saforrest 18:49, 29 June 2007 (UTC)

I think we need to have a paragraph about this, else it will keep popping up again and again, so how about this (or some variant of it) as an alternative phrase:

There is some dispute over the use of Devonshire instead of Devon, and there is no official recognition of the term 'Devonshire' in modern times. Theories have included that the 'shire' suffix is due to a mistake in the making of the original letters patent for the Duke of Devonshire, resident in Derbyshire. However, there are references to 'Defenascire' in old english texts from before 1000AD,^[1] which translates to modern English as 'Devonshire'. The term Devonshire may have originated around the 8th century, when it changed from Dumnonia to Defensascir.^[2]

Anyone think this is a good solution? Owain.davies 19:55, 29 June 2007 (UTC)

Yes, I think that covers just about all the bases! well done. Regards, Lynbarn 20:06, 29 June 2007 (UTC)

Yes, I'm sure that would be fine. The M>F change may have only occurred in the British language (Welsh speakers will understand this - compare Demetia and Dyfed, but we have Elfed in Welsh and Elmet in English, so it doesn't always work) and became fixed in English, but of course that's just my potted theory and we don't have much in the way of a detailed timeline of names that were used in the area, by whom, and under what circumstances. Anyway - para above = good. Stevebritgimp 12:41, 1 July 2007 (UTC)

As everyone seems fine so far, i'll replace the contentious para with this one. As ever, people can always change it later if they don't like it. It IS a wiki after all... Owain.davies 16:54, 1 July 2007 (UTC)

I was hoping to find when Devonshire became Devon. The article simple says "archaically known as Devonshire". I see that the proposal above, made in 2007, includes: "However, there are references to 'Defenascire' in old english texts from before 1000AD, which translates to modern English as 'Devonshire'." Could this sentence, or something similar, be re-added to the article to give an idea of what "archaic" means in this context? Martinevans123 (talk) 21:06, 27 May 2015 (UTC)

I too seek clarification on this. I am born and bred in Devon, and I own several publications on Devon that are either out of print or rare - and they are filled with information on the county. Yet still...--Julius R.S (talk) 23:03, 30 June 2015 (UTC)

@Martinevans123 and Julius R.S: The paragraph that Martin refers to is still in the article, see Devon#Toponymy. Devonshire never became Devon. Both names have been used for a long time, with Devon the commonest. For completeness, the Cambridge Dictionary of English Place-names (2004) records the first use of Defna meaning "the people of Devon" in the ASC under 823; the first use as a place-name, as Defnum under 894; and the first use of the shire name as Defena scire under year 851. See wikt:scir.  —SMALLJIM  22:20, 24 July 2015 (UTC)

In the Economy and industry section, someone has added the following statement:

Dartmoor, for instance, has recently seen a significant rise in the percentage of its inhabitants involved in the financial services sector .

According to a report by the Dartmoor National Park Authority (HTML cache), the numbers employed in this sector only increased by 0.7% between 1994 and 2004. This is minuscule compared with other sectors like hotels & catering (+16.4%) or distribution (+15.9%). Is this statement based on more recent information, or is it just plain wrong? -- Sakurambo 桜ん坊 18:51, 15 July 2007 (UTC)

Do we need this in the infobox? it keeps getting put there with no explanation as to what it means, or what language it is. Opinions please. Totnesmartin 17:41, 15 November 2007 (UTC)

If it is to be there, it should be explained - perhaps in the text. I have removed it for now. If you know what it means/refers to, then please tell us. Regards, Lynbarn 21:59, 15 November 2007 (UTC)

I know what it means - it's the name for Devon in Dewnansek, the (reconstructed) Celtic language of Devon. It has no place in an infobox. in fact I'm fairly sure there's no article about it. This is all I can find in English, although it looks like there's some stuff in Cornish. Anyway, the upshot is, let's keep it out of the infobox. Totnesmartin 23:39, 15 November 2007 (UTC)

Dewnans does indeed mean "Devon". It must be said that Dewnansek is actually Kernowek by another name with some slightly dubious additions from older Devonian sources. Personally I call both languages Brythonek to both same time and partially protest the Cornish co-opting of our shared heritage (I'm Devonian if you hadn't guessed). I guess that it could be added to the infobox in much the same way as Cornwall includes Kernow and The ROI includes Éire. It very much depends on whether or not you accept that the historic indiginous Celtic language of the SW peninsula belongs to everyone now living there, or just one subset of those peoples. In my opinion it ought to be the case that anyone living in modern counties that hold territory which was previously held by the Dumnonii should be able to learn their ancestral language. I'm not saying that others couldn't also learn but the four SW-most counties should be given the first crack at it. Just my £0.02 and I'm open to dissenting opinions for debate.Heliotic (talk) 09:01, 7 December 2007 (UTC)

The main point is, I think, whether Dewnansek (spell it how you will) is well-established enough to be on the infobox. In my opinion it's not (but the future is unwritten, as The Clash said once). As for "ought...to be able to learn their ancestral language" Wikipedia is not a soapbox, so no promoting what ought to be, but what we can do is mention Dewnansek in the text, perhaps under history or culture. Totnesmartin (talk) 12:47, 7 December 2007 (UTC)

Just to add my two quid: My heart and feelings are with Heliotic, right down to the British/Pretanek self-identification. But we need to stick to facts. A Devon language, or indeed a South West British language, however obvious, isn't established among linguists, so a clear identification that 'this is Cornish' would be needed. Apart from this, I would be very interested in the origin and attestation of 'Dewnans' as a word. You'd think the Cornish would have had a word for Devon. The Welsh have access to their own word for it from their own literature (Dyfneint) - it could be argued even Irish has a word for Devon. Is 'Dewnans' attested in Cornish literature, or is it just reconstructed from the 'Dewnansek' exercise? If the latter, this would devalue the word considerably, and it wouldn't be right to ever include it here. Stevebritgimp (talk) 13:45, 7 December 2007 (UTC) Add just to be even shittier: Cornish itself has half a dozen orthographies that people get very, very animated about. So even with an established term, spelling would depend on the brand of Cornish used. Until everyone chills out and makes a decision on that things are largely in limbo. Optimistically that might take 2-5 years. Otherwise who knows? Stevebritgimp (talk) 13:48, 7 December 2007 (UTC)

Totnesmartin, I know that, as per WP:SOAPBOX my opinions have no place in the actual article, which is why I expressed them in the Talk section instead of making a very ill-advised edit to the article and starting yet another Celtic-based edit-war. Dewnansek itself is probably not notable enough (YET) to merit a mention, but it might be worth making an edit to the effect that some Devonians who wish to reverse the tide of anglo-saxon culture and reassert their ancestral anglo-celtic one are attempting to spread the use of Cornish into the rest of the peninsula under a variety of different names and banners including Dewnansek and Brythonek. There is a ready-made place for this edit in the Culture section where Brythonic words for geograpical features such as Coombe and Tor are discussed. Heliotic (talk) 19:01, 7 December 2007 (UTC)

Stevebritgimp, Thankyou for the support and I wholeheartedly agree about sticking to facts. If you read the reply to Totnesmartin you'll note that I also agree that the language is, for all intents and purposes, Cornish by another name. Linguistically, Dewnans (Cornish), Dyfnaint (Welsh) and Devon (English) derive from the name of the original Celtic inhabitants of the area, the Dumnonii, and all P-celtic languages have followed nearly the same path to reach their current forms. Dewnans is most certainly not part of the "Dewnansek exercise" as the cornish themselves use "Dewnans" on their own language Wikipedia[2], along with Dewnens and Deunans from other orthographies. Dewnens appears to be the Kw Wiki standard but nearly every other source I can find anywhere sees Dewnans with an A as the defacto standard spelling. Those are the facts as near as I can figure them, if you have contradictory or supporting evidence I would be only too happy to look at it and, if necessary, revise my own stance. Heliotic (talk) 19:01, 7 December 2007 (UTC)

Yes, edit wars and their parallel talkpage arguments are very destructive and tedious things - I've read quite a few on this general subject, and will be keeping out of them as much as possible. Indeed Dewnans, Dyfneint, Devon, as well as Domnonee derive from Dumnoni which is a latinised form of a word we no longer have, itself maybe related to Fir Domhnain and Dobunni. This in itself doesn't answer where Dewnans originates. Dyfneint is found in ancient Welsh epic poetry and is interpreted as Devon, or Greater Dumnonia - and can be put into a Welsh dictionary as part of the 'Welsh exercise'. So we can see Dewnans as part of Cornish, so it hasn't been invented outside of the 'Cornish exercise', the next step is where did it originate there? Have the Cornish found the word necessary to invent, or is found in Cornish letters, or in a Breton source? Meanwhile you can find Aberplymm on the Kw Devon page - this is a literal translation of Plymouth, an English word - is it a term actually used by the Cornish in olden days, or a modern innovation? It should be safe ground to specify that Dewnans means Devon in Cornish. The sticky bit is the relevance of that fact to modern Devon, because people without what we might call a 'Celtic consciousness' see Cornish as pertaining strictly to Cornwall, and don't see it as a grey area, and don't subscribe to the 'Devon exercise'. Meanwhile among people with a 'Celtic consciousness' we have arguments where one group can accuse the other of invention, where they themselves have had no alternative but to invent. My position is that it is important to stay chilled, see the whole picture without drawing arbitrary lines around things, and be aware of the true origins of the things we hold to be true (and not cover up where things are dodgy). If people could stick to that, maybe there might be less destructiveness - but that is a discussion for elsewhere. Currently these ideas have been of interest to a narrow group of people, so I too would be cautious in inserting them in areas that would fall under WP:SOAPBOX. Enough speechifying from me - incredible amounts have been typed on Wikipedia about this, probably why they're having a funding drive ;) Stevebritgimp (talk) 16:19, 8 December 2007 (UTC)

Eureka!! Stevebritgimp (talk) 02:42, 15 December 2007 (UTC) Found on a discussion board:[3] "It is interesting that William Camden, in his 1607 edition of “Britannia”, describes Cornwall and Devon as being two parts of the same ‘country’ which, “was in ancient time inhabited by those Britains whom Solinus called Dunmonii, Ptolomee Damnonii, or (as we find in some other copies) more truly Danmonii. ... . But”, he says, “the Country of this nation is at this day divided into two parts, known by later names of Cornwall and Denshire [Devonshire] ... The near or hithermore region of the Danmonians that I spake of is now commonly called Denshire, [or] by the Cornish-Britains ‘Dewnan’, and by the Welsh Britains ‘Duffneint’, that is, ‘low valleys’, for that the people dwell for the most part beneath in Vales; by the English Saxons [it is known as] ‘Deven-schire’, whereof grew the Latin name ‘Devonia’, and by that contraction which the vulgar people useth, ‘Denshire’.” "

Well that will put the cat amongst the pigeons - on both sides of the Tamar! I would say that with a bit more background, that extract could form the basis of a separate entry, linked to both the Devon and Cornwall entries.

Regards Lynbarn (talk) 13:25, 15 December 2007 (UTC)

Yes, I was up all night reading some of the h2g2 discussions - it does seem that a lot of these sources are very hard to nail down. The one in question apparently has several editions. It also appears that what was once consensus among Victorian and older scholarship has fallen from people's attention. But at least it appears Dewnan is a genuine word.Stevebritgimp (talk) 18:31, 15 December 2007 (UTC)

[pedant]Just dropping by again, and rereading the toponymy section in a spirit of pedantry it says that Dumnonia was replaced as a name by Defenascir, which implies a change from Latin to English without an intervening British period, which would seem a little odd given the first paragraph's description of names in British languages, and the lack of consonant mutation in English. Quite aside from the excisement of the British from their own history, M>F changes only happen in British - whatever name inspired Defenascir in English it wasn't Dumnonia - although unfortunately we wouldn't be able to say exactly what that name was. Whether there is an efficient way of putting this, and whether we would consider it OR is another matter again. Cheers. Stevebritgimp (talk) 00:50, 10 January 2010 (UTC) [\pedant]

I believe we need an article on the place called Huccaby, in Devon. I think it's a village. Badagnani (talk) 03:50, 4 January 2008 (UTC)

Same could be said for a lot of other places. (80.42.201.205 (talk) 21:18, 18 January 2008 (UTC))

Just noticed that all the pictures apart from foreland point depict South Devon. Supposed (talk) 22:11, 30 March 2008 (UTC)

Agreed - I am currently (well about to may be a better phrase) working on South West media on Commons. Specifically I am working up the Cornish page & plan to do the same for Devon in the next week or so. However feel free to poke around the Devon category there and change some. Cheers --Herby ^{talk thyme} 09:51, 14 May 2008 (UTC)

The [edit] links don't seem to be displaying properly. Compare this page to Hertfordshire. Does anyone know how to fix this on the Devon page? C.harrison1988 (talk) 07:38, 14 May 2008 (UTC)

They have been displaced by all the photos following the infobox, I can't offhand recall how to fix this, but when I do I will return. DuncanHill (talk) 09:10, 14 May 2008 (UTC)

I have fixed it (I think) by moving the pictures about. DuncanHill (talk) 09:19, 14 May 2008 (UTC)

The history section on this page seems rather imbalanced/messy... A brief description of where the name comes from is fine, but there seems to be a lot of space taken up on this page for very ancient stuff only a small bit for anything later. Possibly divide it more clearly into short chronologically ordered sections (looking at it now the only subdivision is saying 'human habitation' which is a pretty bizarre title considering that covers everything.) 86.143.212.175 (talk) —Preceding undated comment added 18:52, 8 April 2009 (UTC).

"i think devon is very cool." —Preceding unsigned comment added by 217.179.116.57 (talk) 13:14, 6 May 2009 (UTC)

The article states "Agriculture has been an important industry in Devon since the 19th century: approximately 80% of land in the South West of England is in agricultural use (19.6% of England's total)". The way I see it, this is rather non-notable as SW England also has 18.5% of England's land area (not counting Greater London which is almost wholely urbanised), which makes it basically on-par with the rest of England. Agriculture is fairly important across the country, and the statistics don't really say anything notable about Devon. I'm not suggesting we remove the statement completely, but the reference to "19.6% of England's total" is a bit pointless IMO. Ðiliff «» (Talk) 10:01, 18 April 2010 (UTC)

I would like to see this article, featured. Let's go to destach it. And, after, this article will can to be destach, in others wikipedias. Eduardo P (talk) 00:57, 19 February 2011 (UTC)

Why does the article say that Devon is the fourth largest county? I always thought (and would like to go on thinking) that Devon is the THIRD largest county, beaten only by Yorkshire and Lincolnshire. ACEOREVIVED (talk) 08:46, 19 August 2011 (UTC)

See List of ceremonial counties of England by area. As well as North Yorkshire and Lincolnshire, it is smaller than Cumbria, which has been a county since 1974. Ghmyrtle (talk) 08:56, 19 August 2011 (UTC)

Thank you - that explains things. I was going by a book published before 1974, before the new counties came into being! ACEOREVIVED (talk) 09:28, 19 August 2011 (UTC)

Can I suggest, in the introduction, using "separated coastlines" rather than separate. I realise separate is perfectly correct, but it took me a while to realise that the point being made was that; they were not connected, rather than that; there were both north and south. Maybe I'm just stupid ;¬) SherpaSam (talk) 00:35, 4 February 2012 (UTC)

I disagree - the wording is clear as it is. Ghmyrtle (talk) 10:01, 4 February 2012 (UTC)

I think @SherpaSam is correct. When I read this, I immediately thought to myself, "Well, how are Cornwall and Kent not also possessors of north and south coasts?". It is an extremely artificial and picayune to state that it is "the only county of England to have two separate coastlines," based on the unexpressed implied distinction of non-continuous coasts. A better phrasing might therefore be "the only county of England to have non-continuous coastlines on two borders." --Eggishorn (talk) 05:13, 15 October 2013 (UTC)

I've now reworded that sentence. And, looking at the rest of the introduction, I've done some other rewording as well. The more I looked at the introduction, the more poorly written it seemed to me to be. "Devon has its historical origins in classical antiquity".... umm, no. "The Anglo-Saxon settlement of Britain resulted in the partial assimilation of Dumnonia.... resulting in emigration of some Celts to Cornwall and Domnonee (in what is now Brittany)" ...."resulting in" was a debatable claim, and poorly worded. The coastline is "peppered by lofty cliffs and sandy shores; Devon's bays are typically used as fisheries, ports or seaside towns used for tourism."... just, unnecessary flowery language, and misleading. "Dartmoor... is indicative of the Devonshire uplands, covered with wide moorland and underlying granite geology. In the valleys and lowlands the soil is fertile..." Why "indicative"? "Devonshire"?! No mention of the large areas of north and west Devon which are neither fertile nor moorland. Anyway, I've rewritten it. Ghmyrtle (talk) 08:11, 15 October 2013 (UTC)

The classical antiquity bit was just bizarre... I must of read this article at least once from top-to-bottom and didn't realize just how out of place it was. It's simply not true! The second part was indeed highly debatable, and past-Celtic history is pretty much irrelevant to the modern county of Devon anyways (unlike in Cornwall). The third part was of course evil tourist trade propaganda! Only the North Devon coast really has any cliffs, and they're not "lofty" they're craggy and rocky (Valley of the Rocks for instance), not to mention the numerous pebble beaches that plague the whole of this Islands coastline. Devon's ports are mostly used for tourism/holiday homes, not fisheries, or neither - is Plymouth really notable as a fishery and for its tourism!? West Devon is indeed quite infertile...I know, I've been through it about a billion times. I went to school there! All the shite you took out sounds like it was written by a tourist company, so thanks haha. --Somchai Sun (talk) 16:14, 15 October 2013 (UTC)

The issue of non-continuous coastlines has arisen again, with an IP inserting a reference to Merseyside - which has coastlines in what were once Lancashire and Cheshire, separated by the Mersey estuary. It's not inaccurate, so long as you accept Merseyside as a county. Of course, there are also counties with offshore islands which in a sense have "separate" coastlines. Short of referring to Devon as the only historic county with separate coastlines, I haven't come up with a succinct wording to get round this one. Any ideas? Should we just get rid of the statement about separate coastlines altogether? Ghmyrtle (talk) 16:15, 26 November 2014 (UTC)

So, the lead currently includes: 'Geographically, Devon is the only county of England, bar Merseyside, to have non-continuous stretches of coastline.' I'm not really sure that that is a notable feature; it is perhaps interesting in the way that answers to pub quiz questions may be but still not of any great note. I'd simply remove the comparison myself and refer to there being a north coast and a south coast - in fact that has effectively been said in the very first line of the article. cheers Geopersona (talk) 17:58, 26 November 2014 (UTC)

I'd also get rid of it. It doesn't seem justifiable to restrict it to historic counties, and it dimishes the claim to state—as it currently does—that "it's the only one except for this other one". And as Ghmyrtle states, strictly speaking any county with an island off its main coast—which is a lot of them—has a non-continuous coastline, thus further muddying the significance of the statement. PaleCloudedWhite (talk) 18:03, 26 November 2014 (UTC)

I'll take that as a consensus. I've done some minor copyediting as well, so others are welcome to take a look and improve it further. Ghmyrtle (talk) 18:54, 26 November 2014 (UTC)

By way of additional observation, I'm not so sure that the former county of Humberside didn't also come into that category as the River Ouse remains tidal until west/upstream of the county boundary (indeed not far short of York) and likewise the lower Trent remains tidal almost to Newark thus dividing the former county so as to provide three separate coastlines - at least in a technical sense. cheers Geopersona (talk) 19:59, 27 November 2014 (UTC)

The traditional ie pre-1974 county of Cheshire had a single coastline but after the 1974 shake-up it had both a Mersey coast and a Dee coast, the Wirral being portioned off into the metropolitan county of Merseyside. Conversely the pre-74 county of Lancashire had a coast south of Morecambe Bay and a separate one north of Morecambe Bay; a situation which did not prevail beyond that date as the northern portion was absorbed into Cumbria. However having two mainland coastlines is the exception for English counties rather than the norm, however and indeed whenever, each individual situation may have come about. cheers Geopersona (talk) 20:07, 16 March 2015 (UTC)

I'm going to have to take issue with this - Devon is unique in this respect (ie when it comes to coasts) - other counties may have more than one stretch of coast (as pointed out above, many have islands which results in additional coastlines) but Devon is clearly different than all other English counties. I'm going to change the sentence in the article to "...because the county straddles a peninsula it has two separate coasts which border different seas (the English Channel to the south and the Celtic Sea/Bristol Channel to the north)..." or something along those lines. I do fear that once again (on Wikipedia) we otherwise fall down the trap of nitpicking to death an interesting and relevant point that is straightforward enough. In this instance, a look at a map of English counties clearly shows that Devon is more than "unusual", it is "unique". Argovian (talk) 20:23, 16 March 2015 (UTC)

Sentence now reads:

Amongst English counties, Devon is unique in that as the county straddles a peninsula it has two separate coastlines, each bordering a different sea; the northern coast being along the Celtic Sea/Bristol Channel and the southern coast along the English Channel.

I trust this is going to be acceptable? (See my previous paragraph, above.) I could have also added (to emphasise the "uniqueness") that the coastlines are also separated by a significant distance. Argovian (talk) 20:28, 16 March 2015 (UTC)

It's the sort of statement that is quite interesting, but quite difficult to put into a succinct form of words. Paraphrasing slightly what Wikitravel says, how about: "Uniquely among English counties, Devon has two physically separated coastlines, on the English Channel to the south, and the Bristol Channel and Celtic Sea to the north." Ghmyrtle (talk) 21:08, 16 March 2015 (UTC)

That description falls into the problems previously mentioned, namely that other counties have "two physically separated coastlines" - the point with Devon is that the two coastlines are separated by some considerable distance and that they are not just different coastlines but bound onto different seas. Argovian (talk) 21:18, 16 March 2015 (UTC)

I should also add that the word "physically" is unnecessary... surely? Argovian (talk) 21:23, 16 March 2015 (UTC)

Re "physically separated"... we need to provide a wording that can be clearly understood by average readers, not logicians or topologists. You could argue that Cornwall and Kent have coastlines on different seas. How about: "Uniquely among English counties, Devon straddles a peninsula and so has two physically separated coastlines, on the Bristol Channel and Celtic Sea in the north, and on the English Channel in the south." Ghmyrtle (talk) 21:27, 16 March 2015 (UTC)

I think we're heading towards something we can all agree on here, aren't we? The Cheshire situation I describe is topologically similar to that of Devon but clearly Devon exhibits this arrangement to a rather more notable degree ie Cornwall is larger than Wirral and the English and Bristol channels are larger than the two estuaries which link with Liverpool Bay - though the difference is largely a matter of degree, but I'd not particularly want to unpick what Argovian has come up with. Interestingly (maybe?!) I've realised that North Yorkshire is (or at least was) topologically similar to Devon with the former Humberside playing the role of Cornwall but the southern coast of North Yorks is the inner part of an estuary and might be considered trivial. cheers Geopersona (talk) 22:48, 16 March 2015 (UTC)

Okay - I'll put that sentence (suggested by Ghmyrtle) into the article. Good stuff. Argovian (talk) 22:52, 16 March 2015 (UTC)

The Celts lived in what is now France. There is no evidence that the Dumnonii were Celts. All we can say is that they were Britons. This is pretty basic stuff; its like confusing the English with the French. Accordingly, am editing this. Fergananim (talk) 21:27, 25 February 2015 (UTC)

The name Devon derives from the name of the Celts who inhabited the southwestern peninsula of Britain - signed by anon IP.

Er? So, as an Irish person you'd deny you're Celtic too? Not that Devon is Celtic these days, mind you.--31.52.114.211 (talk) 15:50, 10 May 2015 (UTC)

Was Devon(shire) a historical part of Cornwall, where the Cornish people lived for ages and the revived Cornish language is spoken by some? 67.49.85.100 (talk) 23:32, 20 December 2018 (UTC)

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Would you like to win up to £250 in Amazon vouchers for participating in The West Country Challenge?

The The West Country Challenge will take place from 8 to 28 August 2016. The idea is to create and improve articles about Bristol, Somerset, Devon, Cornwall and the Isles of Scilly, Dorset, Wiltshire and Gloucestershire, like this one.

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The sports section of the article has not been updated since 2015 from the looks of it. Now, Exeter Chiefs are current premier league champions; having lost in the final the year before. This should be a bit more important in the article, as it features a team from Devon winning a national championship and featuring in the continental championship. It also has a significantly larger stadium capacity than that of the Exeter City F.C. (Redeveloping to over 2,000 vs around 8,000), and is going to be the biggest stadium in the county (bigger than Plymouth's current 17,600). Lee Vilenski(talk) 13:17, 16 October 2017 (UTC)

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Somewhere in this article, it could be mentioned that Devon is the third largest county in England after Yorkshire and Lincolnshire.Vorbee (talk) 17:40, 17 May 2018 (UTC)

Refer to the section on geography "Since 1974 the county is ranked fourth by area (due to the creation of Cumbria) amongst ceremonial counties and is the third largest non-metropolitan county." Jolly Ω Janner 22:08, 2 November 2019 (UTC)