Talk:Colchester/Archive 1

This is an archive of past discussions about Colchester. Do not edit the contents of this page. If you wish to start a new discussion or revive an old one, please do so on the current talk page.

Archive 1

Page is less than 32K; full contents visible in one page; structure is clear. Bloated does not apply anymore. Dilane 22:31, 17 December 2006 (UTC)

those of us who know colchester might regard the text here as not very NPOV especiallt the claim that the A12 is "fast" (2am on a thurs maybe). when Angela has settled there we might get some balance...--BozMo|talk 06:09, 28 Jun 2004 (UTC)

Fast compared to what? It seems rather meaningless, so I removed the word, along with some trivial things, and the following that I'm not really convinced fits into an article. It was sounding a bit too much like a tourist brochure.

removed text:

(Holy Trinity): It stands right in the middle of the town centre outside the public library like an island of calm. Its graveyard is filled with flowers all through the summer. It is not used and access is impossible at the moment. There is talk of a possible youth cafe.

I also removed these links since they are available at Colchester United F.C. or Colchester Borough Council which are already linked to.

• Colchester United FC
• Colchester Constituency Labour Party
• Colchester Conservative Association
• Bob Russell, Liberal Democrat MP for Colchester

Angela. 18:23, Oct 18, 2004 (UTC)

Colchester article is bloated. Needs tidy up. Much of the "bloat" could be moved into other articles, referenced back to main Colchester article.

Created new article History of Colchester. Edited down the historical info in the main Colchester article. Please add additional historical information to the History of Colchester article. Thanks! Davidbober 14:50, 31 March 2006 (UTC)

Added brief politics section to main Colchester article. To do, create separate Colchester Politics article, and separate article Mayor of Colchester. Davidbober 15:20, 31 March 2006 (UTC)

I seem to recall that colchester is now the largest military base in the country since Aldershot scaled back. Not sure on my source for this, if anyone could provide this i think its an interesting factor to add to this article --Pluke 01:42, 4 Apr 2005 (UTC)

I think that the Army's main/largest military prison is in the Colchester barracks, but I'm not sure. Worth including, if correct. Dancarney 12:22, 8 February 2006 (UTC)

^{[citation needed]} IIRC Colchester is the largest single barracks however the largest base by a long way is Catterick Garrison in Yorkshire which is made up of numerous barracks and other facilities. --Achmelvic 15:34, 31 March 2006 (UTC)

MCTC is the British military's only military prison. Source Davidbober 21:50, 23 March 2006 (UTC)

what about twinkle twinkle little star that was written in the dutch quarter...

That's mentioned in the Jane Taylor article, which states she was from Colchester. I don't know if it's really worth mentioning her in this article though. Angela. 18:40, 30 October 2005 (UTC)

Is there any particular reason why the sentence about George Orwell and nineteen eighty four is in the section about Paxman diesels ? 84.130.122.74 23:26, 16 January 2006 (UTC)

Doesn't seem to be any good reason for that. I've moved it to a section on References in literature. Jamse 15:08, 17 January 2006 (UTC)

Anyone know how to change {{{Police}}} to Essex in the box of geographical details?

done, but it feels ever so slightly hacked. Just added the lin |Police= Essex Pluke 21:19, 30 January 2006 (UTC)

Thanks Pluke. "...feels ever so slightly hacked."??

As a citizen of Colchester I was appalled at the lack of a mention of the Iron Age Celtic Dykes around Colchester, so i've added a breif mention. and yes i do realise i've accidently put this under the discussion subject title POLICE ENTRY. whoops! user: PJB

Don't worry - that's the way it's supposed to work around here - someone sees something they think should be included and goes ahead an includes it. Welcome to wikipedia! (I've also sectioned this off so it no longer appears in the police section). Jamse 12:41, 8 February 2006 (UTC)

I am lead to beleive that Colchester was known as colonia claudia and then colonia victoriensis (or however it is spelt) after Boudica burnt it down. {Jake95 19:08, 29 November 2006 (UTC)}

Surely the ancient historian Tacitus' mention in The Annals of Imperial Rome of Colchester/Camulodunum (in the chapter Nero and his Helpers)during the Iceni rebellion should be put here? And yes, I am a sad Boffin for looking it up. User: PJB

Also shouldn't something be said about the Humpty Dumpty song? I believe it was a reference to a cannon that was blown off the top of St Mary's (I think its St Mary's...i cant remember the name of the church by Balkerne Hill), Which is now the arts centre. indeed the damge can still be seen! the top of the tower was rebuilt, and clearly looks differant to the bottom. can anyone back this up (Or reject it)? User: PJB

IRRC, a Royalist Gunner during the Siege mounted a saker there. I'm not sure whether it was actually on the tower itself, or in an emplacement nr the church. The tower was struck by fire from NMA batteries and damaged. Check local records section in Colchester library for Morant, and I believe there's also a copy of the Royalist quartermaster's diary there. Can't check myself... I'm 3500 miles away. Davidbober 21:59, 23 March 2006 (UTC)

Yes, this is probably true. (I live in Colchester.) I think it was on top of the tower. A Seige of Colchester tour I took I think said so, and said that the damage was caused by a cannon from outside which knocked the tower down, and the cannonist on top fell off and died. The King's Horses and Men of course will have came to attempt to repair the cannon, Colchester being a Royalist town. But why the egg? What has that got to do with it? And yes, it is St. Mary's. Jake95 19:14, 29 November 2006 (UTC)

I never really understood that lyric. What expertise would horses have in the repair of a canon (yet alone of an egg)? Surely a single toed hoof would lact the dexterity to manipulate any welding or other engineering tool.Kevin McE 19:54, 29 November 2006 (UTC)

If no one wants me to put in the Tacitus referance (See my entry above) say so soon. If anyone knows more about it, or is clever enough to write it down do so soon, as I think i'll put it in, and I'm not sure if it'll sound any good. PJB 13:45, 8 February 2006 (UTC)

I've placed Tacitus' mention of Colchester in the 'Literary Referances' section before the 1984 bit. It might be a bit amatuerish, but I feel its important. If their is a problem with it say so, and improve on it-Please dont delete it! PJB 14:18, 8 February 2006 (UTC)

Well said. Don't delete... improve! Davidbober 21:51, 23 March 2006 (UTC)

Is this section much more than an advertisement? I would argue not: it states the origins and current status of a commercial, albeit not-for-profit, organisation. I will desist from deleting it until there are some responses here Kevin McE 16:40, 18 March 2006 (UTC)

Could probably use an edit. 199.67.138.20 21:34, 23 March 2006 (UTC)

This appears to be a list of anyone who was born, lived or merely passed through colchester. Daniel Defoe, Matthew Hopkins ... even John Constable is stretching things —Preceding unsigned comment added by 195.10.16.10 (talk) 16:25, 4 February 2009 (UTC) Dr. John Ashdown-Hill, who has made several interesting historical discoveries recently, should be on this list. He lived in the Borough of Colchester for at least ten years and I visited him there three times. Smlark (talk) 18:28, 2 August 2014 (UTC)

Please note: Colchester Town Watch are not historical re-enactors. They ARE the Town Watch, sworn in according to the Statute Of Winchester by the town's Mayor. They no longer carry out any policing duties, the presence of the Essex Police renders this unnecessary, and function only as the Mayor's Ceremonial bodyguard, and Civic ceremonial guard. They have chosen Elizabethan costumes and weaponry as this accords with their ceremonial duties, and contemporary costumes and weaponry would not.

Mike Powell (former Master-at-Arms, Colchester Town Watch) Bargeemike (talk) 17:25, 18 January 2010 (UTC)

Whoever wrote that Colchester has a borderline semi-arid climate is completely and utterly wrong.

Taken from the semi-arid climate article (semi-arid climate and steppe climate are synonymous): "To determine whether an area indeed has a semi-arid climate, the precipitation threshold must first be determined. Finding the precipitation threshold (in millimeters) involves first multiplying the average annual temperature in °C by 20, then adding 280 if 70% or more of the total precipitation is in the high-sun half of the year (April through September in the Northern Hemisphere, or October through March in the Southern), or 140 if 30%–70% of the total precipitation is received during the applicable period, or 0 if less than 30% of the total precipitation is so received. If the area's annual precipitation is less than the threshold but more than half the threshold, it is classified as a BS (steppe climate)."

From the data in this article, Colchester's annual average temperature is 10.6°C (avg. annual high of 14.4°C plus avg. annual low of 6.7°C, divide by 2) and it receives 49.9% of its annual average precipitation of 453mm in the high sun months, April-September. So the precipitation threshold (representing potential evapotranspiration) for this location is 351mm. Colchester's annual average precipitation is well above this threshold, so in no way is it's climate even close to approaching semi-arid.

I will amend the climate subsection immediately. 1brettsnyder (talk) 22:51, 29 July 2010 (UTC)

I think that this section is altogether too long and a magnet for unsourced and tenuous additions, often by IP editors who are not acquainted with the need for verifiability or what improves an article.

Might it be worth agreeing upon some criteria which people added to this section must meet? I am thinking:

• A defined area of Colchester in which people must have lived (e.g. within the current extent of Colchester's built-up area, so Mile End would be included, for example, but West Bergholt would not)
• A reliable source, to be provided upon addition of the person to the section, which gives dates of residency. (I suspect this would be easy, either by slurping sources off the biographical articles or trawling through some of the stuff at Colchester Library.)

Another option would be to remove unverified names onto a subpage where they can be held until checked, then added to the article with source.

I'm aware that this might require some work to get off the ground, but it would give an easy thumbstick to use when pruning new additions. What do people think? Brammers (talk/c) 21:17, 17 December 2010 (UTC)

I agree wholeheartedly with the intention. I'm not sure what geographical spread we should allow claimants: given that we have articles for Lexden, Mile End/Myland and I don't know what other parts of the built-up area, should they not have entitlement to claim their own famous residents? That will of course be scuppered by so-called reliable sources that will describe someone as being from Colchester, a place that most of their UK readers will have heard, when in reality they would be from anywhere from Weeley to Earl's Colne, Little Horksley to Peldon. Matt Cardle, for example, seems to have been living in White Colne. It will also be the case that almost any native of NE Essex in recent times will be recordable as having Colchester as their birthplace, because of the location of the maternity facilities, regardless of what was their home town. Even apart from the obvious occasional vandalism, there is a clear tendency to recentism in such lists: the threshold for the living seems much lower than that for the dead, and even if their had been streakers in earlier centuries, as there surely were sportsmen, singers with a small following, and mediocre musicians, they would not be recorded here. I would want to set a high bar for inclusion: those who are influential in Colchester (schools/streets named after them, recorded in the history of the town) or those infuential in people knowing of Colchester: enthusiastic younger editors might make this tricky. Merely being eligible for Category:People_from_Colchester should not put someone onto the article: we should be talking of a higher level of notability than notability as licence to have a wiki article. Is there no guidance in a MoS for place articles? Kevin McE (talk) 22:32, 17 December 2010 (UTC)

I have wielded a knife to the list today, removing those whose connection is with with other towns & villages nearby (even if within Borough of Colchester: that is a different article), or who have no article, or are only said to have died in Colchester (Colchester Hospital has a catchment area far beyond the town). I suspect that much can still be done about recentism in the list. Kevin McE (talk) 09:50, 13 February 2011 (UTC)

I noticed that, thanks very much for going ahead! I've been tied up with work at uni (the run up to Finals is in full swing and I've been shopping for a supervisor for my masters year) but think that over the next vacation I'll spend some time in Colchester library trying to find a reference for each person in the list. I agree with you that the list is strongly recentist, and also think that a fairly active policy of slicing out dubious claims should be pursued (I'd love to see the article bump up the quality scale but that's going to have to wait until I'm home for the summer). Any ideas on guidelines for inclusion? How does "if the settlement has its own article, famous occupant goes there and not in the Colchester article" sound as a start? Brammers (talk/c) 10:57, 13 February 2011 (UTC)

I totally disagree with your criteria and supposed authority of this. Stanway is part of Colchester (yes i know you have mentioned the borough), but this is an article about the town and its history, including its social history. Therefore Damon Albarn is definitely from Colchester, which he refers to himself (as do other that you have mentioned above). If we split up every single Colchester ward into separate articles the entire history of Colchester is therefore dissipated. Other towns would not do this. Googly75 (talk) 15:32, 18 July 2012 (UTC)

Sorry, would you mind clarifying who you had in mind when you were writing that comment? If it's me, then I don't claim authority and I never have done. Brammers (talk/c) 09:59, 21 July 2012 (UTC)

@Googly75 Authority rests with consensus, consensus is determined by discussion, and the only people to have expressed an opinion until your intervention were agreed on the matter, so enough of the aggressive "supposed authority" tone. Reverting against the consensus on the talk page, on the other hand, certainly does not have authority.

Stanway is not part of the town of Colchester: it proudly proclaims that it is the town of Stanway. It is part of the Borough of Colchester, that is a different article. If it is your proposal to move the "notable Colcestrians" section to the article on the borough, and thereby legitimise the inclusion of those from the hinterland of the town, that's fine, but it is not accurate to say that someone from Stanway is from the town of Colchester. The claim is unsourced in Albarn's article, and use of "Colchester" as a description of the NE Essex area is not encyclopaedic. Kevin McE (talk) 11:18, 21 July 2012 (UTC)

Nominated 7 February 2011;

Support:

1. Casliber (talk · contribs) 00:51, 6 February 2011 (UTC)
2. Thomas888b (Say Hi) 10:22, 6 February 2011 (UTC)
3. Nhyty (talk) 17:47, 8 February 2011 (UTC)

Comments:

It's got history (nice museum with cool Sheela-na-gig in it), a football team I was always sorta fond of, and it might be less ambitious for beginner editors. Casliber (talk · contribs) 00:51, 6 February 2011 (UTC)

Okay folks, now the first task is to look at comprehensiveness - have a look at the article and figure out what is missing and what can be expanded. A good thing to do is compare it with a recent Good or Featured Article of similar scope.. Altrincham is one that gained Featured status in early 2008 and Sale, Greater Manchester from mid 2009..Casliber (talk · contribs) 14:38, 18 February 2011 (UTC)

FWIW, my recipe would go like this:

1. add everything one can think of for comprehensiveness grounds, especially critique/commentary etc.

2. .ensure all referenced with inline reliable sources
3. . copyedit (ideally wait until all material added, but often tidying along the way is unavoidable)
4. . ask 1-2 uninvolve folks to take a squiz.
5. . GAN
6. . See if GA reviewer suggested "bonus stuff" to work on before FAC
7. . FAC and presto, one Featured Article...

Cheers, Casliber (talk · contribs) 14:49, 18 February 2011 (UTC)

Now exacting, in an article to seek such elevation, should we be in distinguishing between the town and the borough/environs? For example, the opening paragraph refers to an University that is in Wivenhoe and a zoo in Stanway. Kevin McE (talk) 21:46, 18 February 2011 (UTC)

Interesting question - there is a page for Colchester (borough)..these pages do get tricky as many places are natural conurbations, yet the definition of the town proper might be narrower than what folks consider. I guess defining it is the first step, which could probably take place under the Governance section. The lead could be tweaked once the definitions are clarified. So I think a good fist step is trawling through the official government pages and some geography data to get definitions right. I think the trick then is to be able to discuss "city" vs "conurbation"...make sense as a good starting point? (NB: I have only been to Colchester once and am not familiar with it, so a local will be a lot more familiar with some of this) Cheers, Casliber (talk · contribs) 23:12, 18 February 2011 (UTC)

Other things I'd add:

• Under Governance, has the town been traditionally more left- or right-leaning?

• Demographics can't just be a link - should be a summary.

• references throughout.

• The earthquake is intriguing - was anything destroyed and rebuilt?

• Discussing commercial town centre.

• Referencing and formatting of references throughout. I might do a few as well (this gets pretty monotonous...)

• A really really good thing for someone who lives in Essex would be to go to the local studies section of the library and there should be like a local book "All about Colchester" or something. That would help fill out the article with all sorts of stuff.

More later - Casliber (talk · contribs) 23:24, 18 February 2011 (UTC)

Why the Finnish wikipedia article has different population? 155 796 there vs 104 390 here. It seems to have a reliable source cited (Office for National statistics, www.neighbourhood.statistics.gov.uk), though english article has a PDF for source (both are said to be from 2001 census). Is there a explanation for that? I didn't find any. 82.141.125.159 (talk) 17:48, 23 June 2011 (UTC)

This article is about the town, and shows the population of the town. The article Colchester (borough) is about the borough, and gives the population for the borough. The Finnish article quotes the figure for the borough: whether the text is consistent with that choice I wouldn't know, as I know no Finnish. Kevin McE (talk) 18:03, 23 June 2011 (UTC)

Hmm... Let's see about that. 85.217.51.163 (talk) 13:07, 22 October 2011 (UTC)

The article is about the town, and I changed the population there to 104 390. Should be solved now. 85.217.51.163 (talk) 13:12, 22 October 2011 (UTC)

Over the past few weeks, a number of users have undone edits to the article that added information about Colchester and District Pipe and Drums. I have reverted the addition twice, if I recall correctly: I don't think that the CADPAD is notable enough to be mentioned in the article (Wikipedia isn't a directory, after all). In particular, the claims that Colchester is well known for the group is somewhat dubious: I am a long-term resident of Colchester and have never heard the group mentioned before. I've told the user, User:Cadpad01, that we can discuss further questions here if need be. Brammers (talk/c) 20:02, 17 August 2011 (UTC)

I don't think that this group is notable either, and the editor has done nothing to prove that this is not the case. Ilikeeatingwaffles (talk) 21:01, 17 August 2011 (UTC)

There are dozens, probably hundreds, of social/activity/special interest/charitable groups in any town the size of Colchester. To merit inclusion, they would need to have a very special place in the life of the town, and not only in the judgement of those involved in such a group. This repeated attempt at inclusion seems to be far more promotional than representative of the reality of the town and the profile of this group. Kevin McE (talk) 23:37, 17 August 2011 (UTC)

Although I certainly don't trust the recent unsourced edits claiming Colchesterite as the relevant demonym, those edits do mean that the claimed demonym Colcestrian is challenged, and therefore should be supported by a source. A brief google search reveals usage by the Colchester Royal Grammar School for its alumni, but not for residents of the town. Only other uses I see are commercial business names. Is the term in use in local papers? Sources/citations please. Kevin McE (talk) 08:29, 30 August 2013 (UTC)

'Colcestrian ' meaning 'a person from Colchester' has been unchallenged in Wiktionary for over four years. Is that a good enough source to run with? Mark126 12:31, 30 August 2013 (UTC)

No. Wikipedia and its sister projects are not considered reliable sources. Kevin McE (talk) 23:31, 30 August 2013 (UTC)

The term 'Colcestrian' is indeed in use in the local paper. Putting Colcestrian into the search window of the Essex County Standard website returns 63 hits. I have looked at the first 11 (8 and 9 obviously being the same article) and found that while 2 of them relate to the CRGS Old Boys, 8 of them do not refer to CRGS, but to general residents of the Town. I suggest that this use constitutes a reliable source for 'Colcestrian' being in common use locally as the relevant demonym. Mark126 18:56, 31 August 2013 (UTC)

Fine. If you want to re-introduce the word into the article, be sure to source it. Kevin McE (talk) 09:55, 14 September 2013 (UTC)

Apparently Colchester has a bus lane scheme that has one of the highest rates of tickets in the UK. Raises up to £1 million a year - worth warning visitors to Colchester. — Preceding unsigned comment added by 31.54.136.239 (talk) 14:26, 15 August 2015 (UTC)

Do you have a source? Remember that Wikipedia isn't a travel guide, so warnings to visitors aren't necessary. Ilikeeatingwaffles (talk) 19:11, 16 August 2015 (UTC)

Here is a possible source for the controversy, although it says nothing about it being "one of the highest rates of tickets in the UK". Martinevans123 (talk) 20:39, 16 August 2015 (UTC)

Doesn't look very notable, in the grand scheme of things. Ilikeeatingwaffles (talk) 09:15, 17 August 2015 (UTC)

I know this isn't a vote, but +1 from me. Not encyclopaedic; more of a Wikitravel thing. Brammers (talk/c) 16:56, 18 August 2015 (UTC)

£1 million is quite a lot for a local council to write off. If they have waived that, I doubt it's one of "the highest" any more. I guess the episode might be usefully added to Traffic camera? Martinevans123 (talk) 20:49, 18 August 2015 (UTC)

Chaps,

Sometimes it seems that half the edits made to this article are about the use of a/an in the lead paragraph – either people changing it to "a historic", or a couple of editors reverting it. I've stayed out of this bunfight because life is too short, but it's starting to clutter up my watchlist and I'm concerned that this sort of protectionism to the article dissuades people from editing it.

I can't find any guidance either way in the manual of style, but common pronunciation under standard Southern English would favour "a". I'm not saying "an historic" is wrong, but it is antiquated and seems to be generating a lot of slow-burn commotion. Would it really harm to let this slip? It'd avoid a lot of minor IP-user edits to the article. I've put a comment either side of the offending article to encourage users to discuss on the talk page.

If we're looking for broader sources, the Guardian style guide suggests using "an" before an aspirated H only in direct quotes. I'd appreciate your input. Brammers (talk/c) 10:16, 3 January 2016 (UTC)

The usual convention is to stick with the original style written if it correct, and this is a valid usage in British English. I do not think anything is gained by boiling our language down to the lowest common denominator. Let people see it in its diversity.Charles (talk) 10:50, 3 January 2016 (UTC)

• The original style when "historic(al)" was introduced to the article used "a": diff.
• We have "a half" further down the page. Ought that become an half for consistency?
• There's nothing to gain but simplicity and readability, and nothing to lose. I don't deny that "an historical" is correct, but not exclusively so. The fact that it's being changed more than almost anything else on this article suggests that a number of people are being motivated to edit what they see as poor English usage. If we have two options – between uncontroversial British English and that which some people think is erroneous – then why on earth are we enforcing the latter? It reinforces the misconception that Wikipedia content is still of poor quality. Brammers (talk/c) 14:30, 3 January 2016 (UTC)

I'm going to change it to "a historic". Forsooth, I say that the use herein of "an historic" be a true and valid usage of an, however, one ought to be at great pains to say that what is technically correct is oft naught but sheer pretentiousness. By which, of course, I mean that while it might be 'correct', it is antiquated and hugely pretentious. Anybody who has done their research knows that "an historic" is simply a convention resulting from the 'h' not being pronounced (aspirated, as a former editor pointed out), which was the norm in the UK roughly 100 years ago. While a vanishing minority still follow the convention, an even more irritating number pronounce the 'h' in "an historic", making them simultaneously sound stupid, pretentious, and wrong. — Preceding unsigned comment added by Axtract (talk • contribs) 10:29, 18 April 2016 (UTC)

"Colchester is also located on the Great Eastern Main Line operated by Abellio Greater Anglia, with intercity services serving Norwich, Diss, Stowmarket, Ipswich, Manningtree, Colchester, Chelmsford, Stratford and London Liverpool Street. These are all from the town's main railway station. Trains also go to Clacton on Sea and Walton-on-the-Naze all week from the main station and Monday to Saturday from Colchester Town railway station, located on the Sunshine Coast Line. Hythe station is also on this line and serves the eastern areas of Colchester."

This fails to acknowledge that Colchester Town runs direct services to London Liverpool Street too. A rewording is needed. --2A00:23C4:C2FA:5400:147E:31F5:3678:96E1 (talk) 20:27, 22 July 2017 (UTC)

In the "In Popular Culture" section we're told: "In folk etymology the name Colchester was thought of as meaning Cole's Castle, though it actually means the Roman fort 'Colonia'" — but we'd been told in the "Name" section that folk etymology said that the name comes from 'Colonia', while academics agree that it's in fact of Celtic origin... --87.112.244.29 (talk) 21:40, 24 August 2017 (UTC)

Easily solved: removed the assertion in the popular culture section, and the confidence of one theory over the other in the Name section. Also note low credibility of King Coel theory in both sections. Kevin McE (talk) 09:05, 26 August 2017 (UTC)