Talk:Blue raspberry flavor

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Multiple sources directly contradict what is written in this article see:

https://www.bonappetit.com/entertaining-style/pop-culture/article/what-is-blue-raspberry-flavor

http://mentalfloss.com/article/29273/what-heck-blue-raspberry

https://www.tastecooking.com/raspberries-turned-blue/

https://www.businessinsider.com/what-is-blue-raspberry-flavor-2017-1 — Preceding unsigned comment added by 115.70.25.101 (talk • contribs) 09:34, February 23, 2019 (UTC)

That's some good stuff. When I get some time I'll try to incorporate the material into the article. (Though the dubious tag is misused so I am going to remove that.) oknazevad (talk) 15:36, 23 February 2019 (UTC)[reply]

This general edit was needed to put into accurate perspective that the blue raspberry flavor and color are artificial food ingredients used in the United States since 1958 to give uniqueness to confections, such as a snow cone. The flavor and color have nothing to do with Rubus leucodermis, a North American raspberry with dark purple (not sky blue) fruit and juice. On the R. leucodermis talk page, I provided this discussion below. Zefr (talk) 18:28, 8 April 2022 (UTC)[reply]

This edit removing reference to a blue raspberry applies because the supposed use of juice from R. leucodermis fruit for flavoring and coloring foods, such as in the image, is an urban myth, explained partly here. Blue raspberry flavor - and the blue color used to manufacture the liqueur, Blue Curaçao - derive from a common, synthetic, food-grade organic compound called Blue 1.

R. leucodermis is not commercially cultivated to any extent sufficient for making juice concentrates or commercial flavors, its juice is a dark purple (not sky blue, as in the image), and its flavor is too tart (without sweeteners) to be used in ice cones, ice cream, or other confections. There is no WP:RS source to support that this fruit is used for commercial raspberry flavors or blue raspberry colors.

This isn't correct. Blue raspberry does not occur in nature, however blue raspberry flavor and color exists in natural form. Please note the distinction between a natural and artificial food ingredient. A synthetic food ingredient is produced using ingredients that are not food themselves (such as petroleum for artificial colors) while a natural one comes from an existing food source (berries/spirulina for natural colors). Here's a Bon Appetit article for citation. A wikipedia article does exist breaking down the difference but I can't find it right now.

https://www.bonappetit.com/story/truth-about-natural-artificial-flavors

Also, the Bon Appetit article cited in the entry for blue raspberry ("esters of banana, cherry and pineapple") is incorrect and misleading about the flavor compounds. You do not see banana (iso amyl acetate) or pineapple (caproates) and not predominantly cherry (benzaldehyde, it can be added but not in a high amount like with cherry/almond) in blue raspberry. Blue raspberry is heavy on raspberry ketone and sweet flavor chemicals like vanillin and maltol, on top of a typical berry profile - essentially a very candy/sweet raspberry. I do not have any citation for this, as I am the citation, working for a company that sells flavors in their R&D group and familiar with the blue raspberry flavors we sell. Portnoyd (talk) 04:00, 12 September 2024 (UTC)[reply]

While it's good to have your expertise for this Wikipedia article, a change to the article needs to be accompanied by a WP:RS source, and not an opinion - even a professional one. It's hard to accept your claim that "blue raspberry flavor and color exists in natural form". How - to ask the obvious - if there is no blue raspberry plant?

Perhaps something similar in flavor and color exists as extracted from a natural source, but it would not be called 'blue raspberry'. The color is from E133 and the flavor is synthetic from esters and sugar. Zefr (talk) 05:39, 12 September 2024 (UTC)[reply]

As asked:

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Flavoring

Backed up by the following link from the CFR:

https://www.govinfo.gov/content/pkg/CFR-2024-title21-vol2/pdf/CFR-2024-title21-vol2-sec101-22.pdf

Please see the section on the Wikipedia page marked "Division by production method". Note that the section does not say the flavor itself is the determining factor in a flavor being natural (so whether or not a blue raspberry exists in nature is immaterial), it's the ingredients, specifically the aroma chemicals that comprise it. I can make a natural "wiz wam" flavor (a term I just made up), but for categorization purposes, if I made the flavor with natural aroma compounds, while this fantasy item does not exist anywhere but in my head, it would be a natural flavor because its components would all be sourced from nature. The same goes for blue raspberry flavor - if the ingredients are manufactured from a natural source - extraction, fermentation, etc - it can and will be called blue raspberry.

Below is how the flavor industry names their flavors. This will answer the question of "How does a blue raspberry flavor exist if there is no blue raspberry plant?". At the bottom, I have linked labeling rules from FEMA, the flavor industry's ruling board which will act as citation for the below. However, it's a big pile of links and the direct citation is not linked as, to be blunt, it's late and it could take a few hours to dig it out. When I find it, I will add it.

Natural NAME Flavor: This is a flavor made solely with ingredients from the named product. A Natural Orange Flavor is made with nothing but orange, likely orange oil and nothing else.

Natural NAME WONF Flavor: WONF stands for "With Other Natural Flavors". This means a Natural Orange WONF Flavor is made with orange along with other natural ingredients. This flavor can be made with orange oil and lemon oil, as an example.

Natural NAME Type Flavor: Type is the standard identifier that the flavor is made without any of the named product in it. You can make a Natural Orange Type Flavor without orange oil, but with other citrus oils, like tangerine and mandarin oils, as well as aroma chemicals like D'Limonene and Citral that create an orange taste.

This last definition is how a blue raspberry flavor can exist without blue raspberries existing. It's the same idea as the fantasy flavor profile I named above. Since the flavor is made with natural ingredients, it is a natural flavor and therefore a natural blue raspberry (type) flavor.

https://www.femaflavor.org/topic/labeling

I hope this clarifies things. I do realize that I am from the US and you mentioning E133 implies you are from outside the US, and different laws and regulations might muck this up, but what I said above *should* hold true for a English Wikipedia citation. Portnoyd (talk) 04:27, 17 September 2024 (UTC)[reply]

Thanks - it's a fascinating process - but I maintain my challenge that manufacturing a flavor for a fruit and its taste that don't exist is artificial flavoring, as described in the Flavoring article. We still don't have a WP:RS source to support any change in the article. Zefr (talk) 20:49, 17 September 2024 (UTC)[reply]