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Wikipedia:Featured article candidates/Allied logistics in the Southern France campaign/archive1

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The following is an archived discussion of a featured article nomination. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the article's talk page or in Wikipedia talk:Featured article candidates. No further edits should be made to this page.

The article was promoted by Gog the Mild via FACBot (talk) 20 October 2021 [1].

Allied logistics in the Southern France campaign

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Nominator(s): Hawkeye7 (discuss) 01:56, 25 September 2021 (UTC)[reply]

Many years ago I gathered a mass of material in both English and French on the World War II campaign in southern France, but never got to work on it owing to my loss of admin status. However, I have used it here to create another article in a series on Allied logistics in the campaigns in north west Europe during World War II. The campaign in southern France has not attracted as much attention as those in the north, and its volume in the Green Books series was not published until 1993, over twenty years after than the last of those about the campaigns in northern France (by a historian who had already completed a volume in the Vietnam series). The article was fairly well received when it appeared on the front page at DYK back in March, and has since passed GA and A class reviews. Hawkeye7 (discuss) 01:56, 25 September 2021 (UTC)[reply]

Comments by Wehwalt

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Hi Wehwalt, I was wondering if you felt in a position to either support or oppose this nomination? Obviously, neither is obligatory. Thanks. Gog the Mild (talk) 00:49, 10 October 2021 (UTC)[reply]

Support Looks good.--Wehwalt (talk) 01:03, 10 October 2021 (UTC)[reply]

Image review

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I will take it on faith that images that are stated to have been taken by a service member in fact were, given the unlikelihood that there were private photographers present.
This states it was created by the Imperial War Museum. This was surely not the case?
It says "Author Tanner (Capt), War Office official photographer" Hawkeye7 (discuss) 19:43, 3 October 2021 (UTC)[reply]
This has a creation date listed of 2015.
Changed to "late 1943 or early 1944" Hawkeye7 (discuss) 19:43, 3 October 2021 (UTC)[reply]
On this, perhaps it could be stressed which D-Day is being referred to.
Changed to "15 August 1944". I think I just pasted the original caption. Hawkeye7 (discuss) 19:43, 3 October 2021 (UTC)[reply]
For the maps taken from The Corps of Engineers: The War Against Germany, one gives a date of 1993, the other 1 January 1993.
They both say "1993". Hawkeye7 (discuss) 19:43, 3 October 2021 (UTC)[reply]
On this, is 1 January 1944 an accurate date?
It just says "1944". Hawkeye7 (discuss) 19:43, 3 October 2021 (UTC)[reply]
That's it.--Wehwalt (talk) 15:44, 3 October 2021 (UTC)[reply]
Something odd going on here. Hawkeye7 (discuss) 19:43, 3 October 2021 (UTC)[reply]
I looked at the image pages at Commons.--Wehwalt (talk) 22:52, 3 October 2021 (UTC)[reply]

Comments from Harry

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  • Plans for Anvil called for landing 151,151 personnel and 19,271 vehicles on the first day. In the first 45 days, 478,931 personnel and 74,386 vehicles would be landed I'm curious about the precision here. Did someone arrive at the conclusion that 74,387 would be too many but 74,385 would be too few? And do we need that level of precision in an encyclopaedia article? Personally, I think the reader might find it a little dense but I guess it's a matter of personal preference.
    Here's how it is done: Each type of unit has a Table of Organisation and Equipment (TOE). These are numbered (eg. 7-15 - infantry battalion). The TOE specifies how many personnel, what equipment and how many vehicles it has. It also lists the weight and shipping space it requires. Then you take the troop list and the manual of TOEs and add them up. You wind up with very specific figures. Hawkeye7 (discuss) 21:02, 9 October 2021 (UTC)[reply]
    As to why I prefer to do things this way: years of trying to paraphrase others, particularly the Australian Dictionary of Biography, have led me to prefer the most detailed figures and dates, which provides maximum flexibility to anyone trying to paraphrase the Wikipedia. Hawkeye7 (discuss) 21:02, 9 October 2021 (UTC)[reply]
  • Each day five units of fire would arrive What's a unit of fire?
    The explanation immediately follows: "This was a somewhat arbitrary measurement for accounting purposes, and was different for each type of ammunition. It was 60 rounds for the M1 carbine, 150 for the M1 Garand rifle, 750 for the M1918 Browning Automatic Rifle (BAR) and 900 for the M1919 Browning machine gun." Hawkeye7 (discuss) 21:02, 9 October 2021 (UTC)[reply]
  • by the end of June some forty logistical units believe that should be 40 (in numerals) per MOS:NUMERAL
    WP:NUMERAL: "Integers greater than nine expressible in one or two words may be expressed either in numerals or in words" Hawkeye7 (discuss) 21:02, 9 October 2021 (UTC)[reply]
  • Reserves of ammunition for American ships was → reserves were or ammunition was
    Corrected. Hawkeye7 (discuss) 21:02, 9 October 2021 (UTC)[reply]
  • with its cargo set to Camel Red → sent?
    Well spotted. Corrected. Hawkeye7 (discuss) 21:02, 9 October 2021 (UTC)[reply]
  • had caused ammunition to be loaded on top not sure "cause" is the verb I'd use for what was a human decision with a seemingly sound rationale
    Re-worded to "in the expectation that there would be heavy fighting, ammunition was loaded on top" Hawkeye7 (discuss) 21:02, 9 October 2021 (UTC)[reply]
  • According to the plan newly-arrived service units needs a comma after "plan"
    Deleted "According to the plan". Hawkeye7 (discuss) 21:02, 9 October 2021 (UTC)[reply]
  • flew out from the UK to Italy via Gibraltar and Marrakesh was the circuitous route to avoid overflying enemy territory or because of the capabilities of the aircraft? Or some other reason?
    Yes. Added: "to avoid overflying German-occupied France and neutral Spain" Hawkeye7 (discuss) 21:02, 9 October 2021 (UTC)[reply]
  • So that each glider would a pilot and a copilot missing word?
    Yes. Added: "have". Hawkeye7 (discuss) 21:02, 9 October 2021 (UTC)[reply]
  • newly-arrived units no need for a hyphen with -ly adverbs
    Removed per MOS:HYPHEN: Avoid using a hyphen after a standard -ly adverb Hawkeye7 (discuss) 21:02, 9 October 2021 (UTC)[reply]
  • Captain Carl W. Bills, an Oklahoma oil man who, despite his lowly military rank, became the technical supervisor of the pipeline system is £depsite his lowly rank" from the source? It sounds like editorialising in Wikipedia's voice.
    Deleted. Hawkeye7 (discuss) 21:02, 9 October 2021 (UTC)[reply]
  • The expectation that there would be heavy fighting had caused ammunition to be loaded on ships on top of rations You mention this further up, almost word for word.
    Re-worded. Hawkeye7 (discuss) 21:02, 9 October 2021 (UTC)[reply]
  • The 3rd Infantry Division, limited expenditure not sure that comma is supposed to be there? Also, you've given the full name in the previous sentence; "the division" would probably suffice.
    Changed as suggested. Hawkeye7 (discuss) 21:02, 9 October 2021 (UTC)[reply]
  • what was actually shipped did not always coincided with what "actually" is almost always redundant, and is "coincided" a typo?
    Yes. Changed as suggested. Hawkeye7 (discuss) 21:02, 9 October 2021 (UTC)[reply]
  • Ammunition expenditures in November were high, with Seventh Army's 648 105 mm howitzers firing as tempting as it is, using ", with" like that should be avoided in professional-quality prose
    Re-worded. Hawkeye7 (discuss) 21:02, 9 October 2021 (UTC)[reply]
  • 2,684 M1911}} .45-caliber pistols looks like you held the shift key down too long!
    This keyboard is a bit "sticky". Hawkeye7 (discuss) 21:02, 9 October 2021 (UTC)[reply]
  • The Allied planners could be faulted by whom? Without attribution, that sounds like an editorial statement in Wikipedia's voice.
    Clarke and Dworak. Re-worded. Hawkeye7 (discuss) 21:02, 9 October 2021 (UTC)[reply]

Overall excellent, as always, just a few minor quibbles but I'm sure nothing that you won't be able to address easily. HJ Mitchell | Penny for your thoughts? 19:32, 9 October 2021 (UTC)[reply]

Thanks for taking the time to provide a review. This is much appreciated. I think I have addressed all the issues. Hawkeye7 (discuss) 21:02, 9 October 2021 (UTC)[reply]
Thank you for the explanation on TOEs; you learn something new every day! All my concerns (which were minor to begin with) have been addressed so I'm happy to support. HJ Mitchell | Penny for your thoughts? 21:24, 9 October 2021 (UTC)[reply]

Comments Support by Zawed

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Lead

Planning

Base 901

More to come. Zawed (talk) 08:48, 13 October 2021 (UTC)[reply]

Assault: seaborne

Ports: Port-de-Bouc

  • 9 wounded on Tackle. Tackle was towed to Toulon... to avoid the back to back usage of Tackle, suggest: "9 wounded on Tackle. Towed to Toulon, Tackle's crew and salvage...}}
    Concatenated sentences to avoid repetition. Hawkeye7 (discuss) 11:19, 13 October 2021 (UTC)[reply]

Supply and services: POL

That's my review done. I also made a few edits to the article as I went through to correct what I felt were obvious typos/grammar issues rather than raise them here. Zawed (talk) 09:52, 13 October 2021 (UTC)[reply]

I think I have addressed all your points. Thanks for the review! Hawkeye7 (discuss) 11:19, 13 October 2021 (UTC)[reply]
Looks good, am happy to support. Cheers, Zawed (talk) 02:46, 17 October 2021 (UTC)[reply]

Source review - pass

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Will do soon. Hog Farm Talk 13:32, 18 October 2021 (UTC)[reply]

As noted at Wikipedia:WikiProject Military history/Assessment/Allied logistics in the Southern France campaign, Young is published by a weaker publisher but looks fine per WP:SPS Sources looks reliable enough for what they are citing Formatting is acceptable. Source review is passed; spot checks not done. Hog Farm Talk 16:05, 18 October 2021 (UTC)[reply]


Comments Support by Pendright

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Lead:

  • On 12 September, the US Seventh Army made contact with Allied forces which had landed in Normandy earlier that year as part of Operation Overlord.
    "that" had landed "at" Normandy
    Changed "which" to "that". Hawkeye7 (discuss) 01:19, 19 October 2021 (UTC)[reply]
  • The unexpectedly rapid Allied advance was the principal cause of logistical problems, although a theater-wide shortage of service units and an unanticipated dearth of French civilian labor also contributed.
    "death" of French civilian labor -> Giving death its ordinary meaning, its use here seems out of place
    "Dearth" is correct; see wikt:dearth. Hawkeye7 (discuss) 01:19, 19 October 2021 (UTC)[reply]

Background:

  • Additional assault shipping Eisenhower required for Overlord was sent from the Mediterranean.[6]
    Think about beginning the sentence with the definite article and inserting that between shipping and Eiesemnhower
    Thought about it. Hawkeye7 (discuss) 01:19, 19 October 2021 (UTC)[reply]
  • In April, the British chiefs suddenly announced that they were in favor of Anvil after all, to which the Commander-in-Chief, United States Fleet, Admiral Ernest King replied that his offer to withdraw ships from the Pacific was still good.[9]
    Did King deliver on his promise?
    Yes. Added a bit about this. Hawkeye7 (discuss) 01:19, 19 October 2021 (UTC)[reply]

Planning:

  • All were far from perfect, being separated by cliffs and rock outcrops, backed by dominating high ground, and possessing only restricted entries and exits.[16]
  • The departure of Lieutenant General George S. Patton for the United Kingdom along with key members of the staff left numerous vacancies at Seventh Army headquarters.
  • By 1 August, 162 personnel were assigned to the Coastal Base Section headquarters, and 532 to the 21st Port, although some were still serving with their former units.[24]
    Drop the comma after headquarters
  • Of these, 43,406 would come from North Africa, 24,015 from Italy[,] and 4,989 from Corsica; 55,772 would be American and 16,638 French.
    The sentence refers to three countries and two nationalities?
  • They were organized into Italian Service Units of 250 men and commanded by Italian officers and non-commissioned officers.
    non-commissioned -> noncommissioned
    Removed hyphen. Hawkeye7 (discuss) 01:19, 19 October 2021 (UTC)[reply]
  • The logistics plan provided for five days' supply of Class I (subsistence) and III (petrol, oil and lubricants) every three days, thus building up reserves by two days every three. For Class V (ammunition), the troops would land with five units of fire.[29]
    petrol -> gasoline
    Changed to POL. Hawkeye7 (discuss) 01:19, 19 October 2021 (UTC)[reply]

Base 901

Mounting

  • Reserves of ammunition for American ships were carried by the ammunition ships USS Nitro, which came from the United Kingdom, and Mount Baker, which sailed from the United States.

Seaborne:

  • A sand bar at Alpha Yellow caused LSTs to beach prematurely, and some vehicles drowned before a ponton causeway was erected.
  • some, many, or a few LSTs were beached?
    Some. Added. Hawkeye7 (discuss) 01:19, 19 October 2021 (UTC)[reply]
    some vehicles drowened -> submereged seems more apt?
    That is not the same thing. Hawkeye7 (discuss) 01:19, 19 October 2021 (UTC)[reply]
  • Motor cranes, A-frames mounted on DUKWs and 6x6 trucks with Quickway cranes were then used to lift the cargo onto trucks, which took it to a dump where it was unloaded using a crane.
  • There was a general shortage of cargo nets owing to too many ships being unloaded at once, too few trucks to move the cargo to the dumps, and insufficient personnel to unload the cargo at the dump sites.[58]
    owning to -> because of (meaning the same thing) drops a to
    "Owing" is correct. Hawkeye7 (discuss) 01:19, 19 October 2021 (UTC)[reply]
  • Dump sites were selected before the landing from aerial photographs based on their accessibility to road and rail transport, and the area available for storage facilities, but when reconnaissance teams surveyed the dump area after the landing, large numbers of land mines were discovered, which had to be removed before the area could be used for storage.
  • Some of the dump areas were found to become swampy after rain, and had to be moved to higher and drier ground, which often lacked the access to transport.[58]
    • Also introductory?
  • Between 15 August and 8 September 265,939 long tons (270,206 t) of supplies and 46,505 vehicles were landed over the beaches.
  • About 33,000 POWs and 6,200 casualties were evacuated.[58]
  • By 14 September the beach dumps held 11,740 long tons (11,930 t) of subsistence, 8,821 long tons (8,963 t) of petrol, oil and lubricants (POL), and 58,488 long tons (59,427 t) of ammunition. Another 10,252 long tons (10,417 t) of POL were held at Marseille and Port de Bouc.[26]

Airborne:

  • Within 48 hours all the airborne objectives had been taken and the airborne forces had linked up with the seaborne ones.[63]

Pause here - back soon! Pendright (talk) 22:58, 18 October 2021 (UTC)[reply]

Base organization:

  • An advance echelon of SOS NATOUSA was organized in Italy and arrived at Dijon on 12 September to control both the Delta Base Section and CONAD.[75]

Marseille:

Port-de-Bouc:

  • The capacity of the port was small compared to Marseille, with a pre-war capacity of 7,000 long tons (7,100 t) of cargo, but German demolitions were not as extensive.

Toulon:

  • A large swing bridge that had been collapsed had to be cut up to remove it from the channel and provide access to the berths in the inner basins.[96]
  • Tonnage unloaded through the ports southern France increased from 174,500 long tons (177,300 t) in August to 326,813 long tons (332,057 t) in September, 524,894 long tons (533,317 t) in October, and 547,602 long tons (556,389 t) in November.[97]

Railways:

Inland waterways:

  • Plans were made to remove the obstructions by 8 November,[107] but plans to use the Rhône were abandoned owing to a shortage of suitable tugs for use on its swift-flowing and relatively shallow waters.[113]

Subsistence:

  • The 178th Bakery Company established itself in Épinal on 2 October, and the 108th joined it there between 19 and 23 October, while the 7553rd (Italian) Bakery Company moved in to Vesoul.

Medical services:

  • The 52nd 56th and 58th Medical Battalions landed on 15 August to supplement the organic medical units of the divisions.[132]

Finished - Pendright (talk) 03:26, 20 October 2021 (UTC)[reply]

All points addressed. Hawkeye7 (discuss) 05:49, 20 October 2021 (UTC)[reply]
Supporting - Pendright (talk) 11:55, 20 October 2021 (UTC)[reply]
The above discussion is preserved as an archive. Please do not modify it. No further edits should be made to this page.
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