Wikipedia:Articles for deletion/Grassmere, Colombo

The following discussion is an archived debate of the proposed deletion of the article below. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the appropriate discussion page (such as the article's talk page or in a deletion review). No further edits should be made to this page.

The result was merge to Fredrick Richard Senanayake. After two re-lists, a clear consensus to merge with Fredrick Richard Senanayake, but openness to merging with other suggestions. (non-admin closure) Britishfinance (talk) 22:06, 5 November 2019 (UTC)[reply]

Grassmere, Colombo (edit | talk | history | protect | delete | links | watch | logs | views) – (View log · Stats)

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Sources are just passing mentions, not about the house. Article doesn't make it clear why this is a notable subject, and looking for online sources doesn't help either. Article creator added more sources when removing the proposed deletion, but this source has the most content about the house of any of them: "“There’s a dining table in my home on which E. W. Perera signed the famous ‘letter-in-the-shoe’. The Grassmere mansion is where many of the ideals of winning our independence were originated, and my great grand father F. R . Senanayake played a role in it,” says Chathuka Senanayake, grandson of R. G. Senanayake." Interesting, but if no other sources go into this in much more detail, it isn't sufficient for an article on this house. The final source, "Miller. Fredrick Richard Senanayake", is an Alphascript published book[1]: Alphascript doesn't publish any original content, only reprints of Wikipedia articles, and thus isn't a reliable source. Fram (talk) 08:44, 11 October 2019 (UTC)[reply]

Note: This discussion has been included in the list of Sri Lanka-related deletion discussions. Fram (talk) 08:44, 11 October 2019 (UTC)[reply]

Note: This discussion has been included in the list of Architecture-related deletion discussions. Coolabahapple (talk) 07:35, 14 October 2019 (UTC)[reply]

• Keep. Architecturally and historically appears to be a significant building. -- Necrothesp (talk) 09:17, 14 October 2019 (UTC)[reply]
  • Can you elaborate on what sources you base this on? Fram (talk) 09:40, 14 October 2019 (UTC)[reply]
    • One source suggesting that the site is significant (i.e. it likely would be historic-registry-listable on anything like the U.S. National Register of Historic Places under the reasoning that important events happened there), is this article in Daily News (Sri Lanka), which includes:

      “There’s a dining table in my home on which E. W. Perera signed the famous ‘letter-in-the-shoe’. The Grassmere mansion is where many of the ideals of winning our independence were originated, and my great grand father F. R . Senanayake played a role in it,” says Chathuka Senanayake, grandson of R. G. Senanayake.

Perhaps someone more conversant than me about Sri Lankan history and E. W. Perera and Fredrick Richard Senanayake could explain that more, but it sounds like a significant place to me. I dunno [what is the "letter-in-the-shoe" incident], is it comparable to the Secret pumpkin incident/place in the U.S., of comparable era, whose historic site is recognized in the very high-level National Historic Landmark registry? --Doncram (talk) 01:59, 18 October 2019 (UTC)[reply]

The Alger Hiss incident, and the pumpkin hiding spy stuff, were of 1948-50. The pumpkin's farm was listed on U.S. national registries early, relative to 50-year event significance rule. --Doncram (talk) 18:43, 22 October 2019 (UTC)[reply]

Note: This discussion has been included in the list of History-related deletion discussions. Necrothesp (talk) 09:17, 14 October 2019 (UTC)[reply]

• Merge to Fredrick Richard Senanayake in section 'private' or 'family'. He appears to have commissioned house & its use by Goethe Inst is significant.Djflem (talk) 19:18, 15 October 2019 (UTC)[reply]
• Keep. For sources we need someone to search in Sinhala language and Tamil language. Also need searching on alternate names, including "Grasmere" spelling. It appears to me that this would be a leading candidate to be on any historic register of historic sites in Sri Lanka or in Colombo, the capital and largest city. There are eight world-level World Heritage Sites in Sri Lanka, and a TripAdvisor tourism page points to various historic sites, but i can't find info for any official historic registers for the nation or city.

A website of historic photos of Sri Lanka which i can't link to includes 1945 photo showing historic house with likely-important architecture (another type of reasoning for historic site listing), and mentions RAF officers being housed there, presumably during World War II (adds to event-type significance). (Linking to the source is blacklisted in Wikipedia: find by searching "Grasmere Situated in Gregory’s Road, Colombo 1945"). By the way the related Echelon Barracks also look notable to me (search on "Echelon Barracks Colombo, Ceylon 1945") ... oh there is an article for those barracks, although they were demolished. Grassmere, surviving, is relatively more important to cover, I suppose.

This site seems comparable in age and importance to those of several AFDs in last year or two which closed keep, in other countries where official historic designations are far less developed than in U.S. and U.K.:

• Aziz Bagh (Wikipedia:Articles for deletion/Aziz Bagh (2nd nomination)), Hyderabad, India -- this mansion/house appears very similar, and it was hard to find out that it was listed in an unofficial, club-like historic registry that had been started up in advance of a more official Hyderabad area registry, in which it was also listed. It takes a while for nations/regions to figure out how to do this, although we can be pretty sure about some of the obviously historical ones being recognized eventually. This building actually looks very similar, and must be similar in era and architecture.
• Kholvad House (Wikipedia:Articles for deletion/Kholvad House), South Africa, not yet officially recognized, but noted unofficially as a place to visit/see potentially, even though not open as a museum. Actually very similar, in being event-type-significant about independence movement, in fact a "den of defiance":"The documentary 'Flat 13' is the story of an apartment [in Kholvad House] in downtown Johannesburg which, during the late 40's to early 60's, became a hub of rebellion and resistance against apartheid's injustices because of the young people who lived there and those who hung out there. Nelson Mandela has described this flat as the place 'where the first seeds of nonracialism were sown and a wider concept of the nation came into being'.The flat first got its reputation as a nonracial social and political centre in the mid - 40's when Mandela, a fellow first year law student with Ismail Meer at Wits University, started to hang out there with other young political activists, journalists, musicians and intellectuals from across the colour and religious spectrum. Ismail Meer was the tenant of this flat in downtown Johannesburg at the time. These young people would often dance the night away and also debate their vision of a future South Africa, until the early hours of the morning. Mandela and Meer were both just 24 years old when they first met. This reputation of Flat 13 as a den of defiance scorning apartheid and its injustices continued ...." quote from here)
• Wikipedia:Articles for deletion/Ashough Jivani's House-Museum, important in Armenia broadly, located in Georgia (country). [Maybe not exactly a national independence-related location, but Jivani's rise to prominence was part of a national awakening. --Doncram (talk) 18:43, 22 October 2019 (UTC)][reply]

I think it is reasonable to keep the relatively few articles in English wikipedia that cover these sites of independence-seeking era, which have both event-type and architecture-type significance, that are pretty clearly comparable to high-level historic listings in the U.S. and U.K., even in advance of them being officially designated in their countries. Sure, having more documentation would be good here, so tag for development. --Doncram (talk) 15:37, 17 October 2019 (UTC)[reply]

• Merge with Fredrick Richard Senanayake. I agree with the keep !votes that the subject appears to be significant, but without adequate sourcing it isn't notable. -- Scott Burley (talk) 16:41, 19 October 2019 (UTC)[reply]

• Comment. If some of the associated persons are in fact very important in Ceylon's independence movement, then this place would be like Mount Vernon, say, if besides being George Washington's home it was also the location where the U.S.'s Declaration of Independence was signed, maybe. :) Okay, maybe that is a tad overstated, but this does seem likely to me to be one of few well-preserved sites associated with people and events of Sri Landa's independence movement, therefore extremely likely to become prominent historic sites if/when the nation can get beyond various tragedies in its modern history. And, again, I think coverage is likely in Sinhala language and Tamil language, and so far in this AFD i think no one asserting to be extremely knowledgeable about the nation has offered perspective. I think tagging for development, and posting at relevant WikiProjects would be appropriate, not deletion. I !voted Keep above. --Doncram (talk) 18:50, 22 October 2019 (UTC)[reply]
• Merge to Fredrick Richard Senanayake seems like a reasonable approach here. Significant enough to mention somewhere, if possible, but not enough to base a stand-alone article on, it seems. — Rhododendrites ^talk \\ 02:43, 27 October 2019 (UTC)[reply]
• Comment. There are several possible targets for a merge besides Fredrick Richard Senananyake, including the Goethe-Institut, which currently is active inside the building, and Richard Gotabhaya Senanayake.4meter4 (talk) 03:24, 27 October 2019 (UTC)[reply]

• Merge as appropriate into one or more of the articles suggested by 4meter4. I see incidental mentions of the residence in the biographies of prominent members of the Senananyake family, but no evidence that it is a listed building or that any effort is being made to promote it as a significant national landmark. The 'letter in the shoe', for anyone still interested, was an incident where E. W. Perera traveled to England to present a letter to colonial authorities there- a number of prominent Sri Lankan leaders had been imprisoned by local colonial authorities as a result of riots between Sinhala and Muslims, and it's regarded as a significant incident in Sri Lanka's independence movement. Perera thought that the local colonial authorities might seize the letter since it was potentially embarrassing to them, and so reputedly hid it in his shoe. The incident might be deserving of an article since it seems to be widely known in Sri Lankan history, but the residence seems to be incidental to the story. --Spasemunki (talk) 23:23, 28 October 2019 (UTC)[reply]

The above discussion is preserved as an archive of the debate. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the appropriate discussion page (such as the article's talk page or in a deletion review). No further edits should be made to this page.