User talk:Snow Rise/Archive 5

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Hello Snow Rise, per the policy regarding publicizing RfC’s, your name was chosen from the list of editors who participate in them.

The RfC link is here.

The question is:

Should we keep these newly created separate country articles about the Ebola epidemic, or should we delete/redirect them to the article Ebola virus epidemic in West Africa?

• 2014 Ebola virus epidemic in Guinea
• 2014 Ebola virus epidemic in Liberia
• 2014 Ebola virus epidemic in Sierra Leone
• 2014 Ebola virus case in the United States

Your participation is greatly appreciated. Thanks!

SW3 5DL (talk) 01:01, 5 October 2014 (UTC)Reply

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WP:Anatomy quarterly update (#3)

Previous -- Next

Released: 1 November, 2014

Editor: Tom (LT)

Hello WP:Anatomy participant! This is the third quarterly update, documenting what's going on in WikiProkect Anatomy, news, current projects and other items of interest. I'd greatly value feedback on this, and if you think I've missed something, or don't wish to receive this again, please leave a note on my talkpage or remove your name from the mailing list

What's new

• Several new GAs: Cervix, Cranial nerves, Parathyroid gland, Sebaceous glands, Pudendal nerve
• New FL (Anatomical terms of motion)
• Finally, an automatically-generated list of articles needing cleanup is available: [1]
• A list of recent changes is created, and can also be attached as a template for user pages: {{Recent changes in Anatomy}}
• Reached GA goal of 10 articles! -- now increased to 20
• We were Featured in the signpost!
• An essay about the use of Anatomical terminology, WP:ANATSIMPLIFY is released (see below for more!)

What's going on

• We fly past 10,000 articles (now already up to 10,150). Why is this important? Articles under our scope are automatically included in popular pages, the cleanup list, and will be included as the recent changes list is updated.
• A discussion about the formatting of infoboxes.
• A lot of editing on the heart article -- can it make it to GA?
• The medical newsletter, WP:PULSE finds its feet, and Anatomy and Physiology are featured as a subsection!
• A new WP:WikiProject Animal anatomy (WP:ANAN) is created to focus on animal anatomy.

How can I contribute?

• Welcome new editors! We have a constant stream of new editors who are often eager to work on certain articles.
• We are always looking to collaborate! If you're looking for editors to collaborate with, let us know on our talk page!
• Continue to add high-class reliable sources
• Browse images on WikiCommons to improve the quality of images we use on many articles.

Quarterly focus - Anatomical terminology

Anatomical terminology is an essential component to all our articles. It is necessary to describe structures accurately and without ambiguity. It can also be extremely confusing and, let's face it, it's likely you too were confused too before you knew what was going on ("It's all Greek to me!" you may have said, fairly accurately).

In the opinion of this editor, it's very important that we try hard to describe anatomy in a way that is both technically accurate and accessible. The majority of our readers are lay readers and will not be fluent in terminology. Anatomy is a thoroughly interesting discipline, but it shouldn't be 'locked away' only to those who are fluent in the lingo – exploring anatomy should not be limited by education, technical-level English fluency, or unfamiliarity with its jargon. Anatomical terminology is one barrier to anatomical literacy.

Here are four ways that we can help improve the readability of our anatomical articles.

1. Substitute. Use words readers are familiar with -- there is no need to use anatomical terminology unless necessary!

   Innervated by

   The nerve that supplies X is...

2. Explain. When using terminology, remember readers will likely not understand what you mean, so consider adding an explanation and providing context. Use wikilinks for terms that a reader may not know.

   "The triceps extends the arm" may not be readily understood. A small addition may help the reader:

   "The triceps extends the arm, straightening it". Consider:

3. Separate. Do not use long, complicated sentences. Don't write discursive, long comparisons unless needed. Start with simple information first, then get progressively more complex. Separate information by paragraph and subsection. Bite-sized information is much more easier to digest for readers who don't have a solid anatomical foundation
4. Eliminate. Not all information is necessary on every article. Hatnotes are a simple and effective way to direct readers to another article. Don't provide long lists of synonyms of names for structures that an article isn't about. If a sentence has been paraphrased to the hilt, consider that several editors are indicating it may need to be simplified.

   "The other branches of the trigeminal nerve are the opthalmic nerve (nervus opthalmicus) and mandibular nerve (nervus mandibularis)"

   "The other branches of the trigeminal nerve are the opthalmic nerve and mandibular nerve" is much more easily digestible

This essay is provided in full on WP:ANATSIMPLIFY.

This has been transcluded to the talk pages of all active WP:ANATOMY users. To opt-out, leave a message on the talkpage of Tom (LT) or remove your name from the mailing list

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Vigyani_talk^{ਯੋਗਦਾਨ} 00:39, 26 November 2014 (UTC)Reply

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I opened up an RfC for the U.S. same-sex marriage map due to the complicated situation of Kansas: RfC: How should we color Kansas? Prcc27 (talk) 12:13, 11 December 2014 (UTC)Reply

Your posts are too long; while WP:BECONCISE (aka tl;dr) is "just an essay," I'd describe it as a "greater essay." Please see also applicable section of WP:First Law. NE Ent 03:02, 12 December 2014 (UTC)Reply

Hi, NE Ent. Appreciate the advice is made in good faith and under most any other circumstances, I'd be happy to take that recommendation in stride -- I can be verbose on the project at times and there are occasions where it can be counter-productive, I know -- but sometimes an ANI discussion for a disruptive user requires one to be quite exhaustive in detailing unacceptable behaviour and where it violates policy -- especially if the party in question has a proclivity for re-contextualizing their activities and presenting all criticism of them as the product of personal grudges.

I'm deeply concerned about this situation and the fact that the ANI seems focused almost exclusively upon TRM's issues with just Medeis and Bugs, while his many unambiguously uncivil personal attacks on the desks and persistent AGF violations on the talk page have collectively not earned him so much as a single warning from an admin, despite coming immediately after his block was removed. He's openly celebrating the fact that these attacks "got results" (for his ends, anyway), and I think it's pretty clear that he's learned no lesson here but in fact has had his belief that these tactics are acceptable and effective reinforced. Please believe me when I say that I don't want to be the one who has to shine a spotlight on these matters and would gladly pull back from the conversation if others who witnessed those activities would note as much, but while I am getting automated edit thank-yous, telling me that I am not alone in my assessment of the situation (and which I do appreciate) only one of those people has bothered to comment in the ANI itself. If TRM is not banned from the desks or at least made to understand that such an action will be eminent if he does not reform his approach, there can be little doubt that this situation will just repeat ad nauseum; I have little faith he will correct his behaviour himself, as he has not once admitted to having erred in the slightest and he clearly feels he is winning a contest to reform the desks to his preferences.

This is not a trivial matter and I'm a little confused that I have not seen more of the voices who tried to convince him to make his tone more civil and productive on the Desks and the talk page also contributing in the ANI, which would surely assist me in not having to present these facts (at great length) myself. I am very concerned myself at the number of posts I've had to make and the length they've had to be, because it will obviously give him fuel to try to suggest that I have some sort of personal grievance against him (a tactic he has already tried with regard to me, Phoenexia, and others), when the truth is I had never been aware of his existence until observing the talk page discussion about him three days ago and have only become involved to the extent that I have at ANI because I am that appalled at his behaviour and the extent to which he is getting away with it, as an admin no less. Even Bugs and Medeis, after each filing an ANI against him earlier this week, are treading lightly around him, despite the fact that neither of them did anything wrong in this instance -- I suspect because once the spectre of a topic ban was raised for all three parties, they began to fear that TRM would gladly accept the ban if it meant he could get it imposed on the both of them as well, since (despite his strong feelings about the place) he almost never actually contributes there whereas the desks are of vital interest to both Bugs and Medeis.

In short (yes, I know, haha), I have said as much as I have because others have not said as much as they probably should. Under the circumstances, my only other option to being long-winded is to let him get away with treating other people like garbage and dragging the tone of discussion on the desks into nastiness, and I'm just not prepared to do that. Snow talk 06:18, 12 December 2014 (UTC)Reply

Personally, I like that you are long winded - that is my natural state - and I can't comment if it is discouraged, or a violation of anything, it does fully clarify exactly what you are trying to say. At any rate, pertaining to ANI: I would encourage you to open your own thread specifically focused on the incivility complaint, specifically to TRM. I say this, literally and exactly, because the specific nature of my thread is rooted in the IBAN with the TBAN as a logical progression of that, rather than any party's specific behaviour (bad or good). So as not to appear as if I am trying to stir up drama (or had "secret" intents to my thread): I am saying this only in so far as that our specific issues, and proposals, do not coincide, despite reaching like conclusions - and, as such, with perfect consideration, someone may conclude that a TBAN ought not be put in place on the grounds of my argument, whereas they may on yours. In short, the reason you may not have gotten as much commentary on your position may have less to do with support, or non-support, of your position and, instead, that it is not the position at hand. (I truly do hope that I am conveying that this is not an attempt to keep encouraging people to push some agenda - it can be read that way, superficially, and I don't want that (I would say so, were it so - and would complain far more, and differently, in my thread were that my intent)).Phoenixia1177 (talk) 10:17, 12 December 2014 (UTC)Reply

It's an idea, but I fear he would parlay it into implications of persecution at this point, my having taken so much time to detail his behaviour already. Everything I said to Ent not withstanding, I think perhaps the best thing I can do for just the moment is scale back my responses and not let him utilize their length to suggest that my motivation is anything aside from honestly presenting the relevant information to the ANI. Now that the diffs are up, I think people will better understand the nature of the behaviour that is being discussed. I think he honestly believes that was just me making a "tactical" move against him, but it really was first and foremost a last-ditch effort to try to give him a context to self-correct before people really start taking a look. That being said, those are his own words and I think they speak for themselves; he can (and clearly will) cry persecution anytime someone summarizes his behaviour, so best let his actions speak for themselves. It's not like it's an ambiguous case.

The timing and location of his arrival on the Ref Desks make it hard for him to continue arguing he wasn't hounding Medeis (at the exact same time that he was engaged in a dispute involving an edit war and TBAN violations with Medeis, he shows up on the Ref Desks, where he very rarely contributes, for the first time in nearly a month and then goes straight to the desk Medeis is working on and hats the last discussion Medeis had participated in. The hat was reversed and he was called out by other editors and then he spent the next several hours moving from desk to desk, insulting and denigrating responses). That's certainly relevant enough to the IBAN, but I think it will speak volumes as to the need for a TBAN as well. I hope so, anyway, because I don't ever see him stopping this on his own. It would help, if only to clarify, if Medeis would say outright whether or not she felt it was more or less certain that TRM was there to hound her, but I think between the IBAN and especially the TBAN discussion she's concerned to get involved, which is a shame, because she's done absolutely nothing wrong, that I've seen -- though have not followed the ITN issues back to the core, but the admin looking back into that issue through ANI decided to block him and not her, and combining that with how he behaved upon arriving at the Ref Desks, I'm inclined not to believe he was not exactly a victim.

Honestly, I should have started with the diffs from the very first place. It was the procedurally right thing to do and would have saved a lot of trouble. Instead I let myself be drawn into a series of he-said/they-said style discussions, and that's really where he excels; he believes so powerfully in the idea that he is being maltreated that he actually manages to put a shadow of doubt in the minds of those who weren't first-hand observers. But that's the beauty of Wikipedia. Anybody can be a first hand observer, after the fact. And with certain types of people, it's better to let others see for themselves, rather than let them use you to obfuscate the matter. He has no problem saying you're a liar, that you're engaging in ad hominen attacks, that you have a grudge, that you've made unfounded assumptions. And if you challenge him for specifics to prove those claims, he'll just move on to the next thing. Look at how many times he ran me through that cycle. No, I think Ent was at least half right. My posts aren't too long, but TRM has made caused me to repeat those solid, if lengthy arguments too many times. The Rambling Man's actions speak for themselves. So I'll let them speak. Though yeah, if I had it to do over again, I'd have just started a headed subsection "Discussion on the TBAN proposal" and would have summarized the chain of events with the diffs from the outset.

Thank you for the sounding board, Phoenixia. And thank you also for the kind affirmation on my editorial/discussion style; the way you describe it is the way I'd like to think of it myself. Though no doubt I do push the limit on occasion. ;) Snow talk 11:16, 12 December 2014 (UTC)Reply

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Hey there. I am very confused by your hatting of WP:RDS#Reception of Einstein's ideas. White Noopolo starts with a preamble, they do come to the point, asking, "But is it right at all that Einstein met lots of jest and disdain before he could prove them all wrong?" That sounds like a factual question to me. Did you misread it, or am I missing something? The question seems to have been well answered, but I don't understand how hatting is called for. Cheers! -- ToE 23:54, 27 December 2014 (UTC)Reply

Looking at it further, I'm pretty sure that you misread the question. "Einstein was also considered a joke, until he proved that he was right." was not an assertion by Noopolo, instead it is part of the argument that they were repeating, leading up to their question as to whether the basis for this argument was historically correct.

I just undid your boxing (deleting you accompanying note). I do this in good faith, under the belief that you misread the question, and that leaving the boxing in place is somewhat disruptive to the RD's readers. Here's to hoping you don't mind. -- ToE 00:06, 28 December 2014 (UTC)Reply

Nope, don't mind in the least; you could very well be right! I did in fact read the question as one which was asking whether it was appropriate that Einstein's ideas were treated in that manner (rather than whether that fact was actually correct), but, having re-read it, I'm not by any means certain that is the case -- so I think you did the right thing, erring on the side of caution and assuming the meaning that would make for an appropriate request. Good catch, if you prove to be right, and good move in either event, I must admit. Snow talk 01:02, 28 December 2014 (UTC)Reply