User talk:JonRichfield/Archive 2

Could you take a look at http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Wikipedia_talk:Manual_of_Style/Linking#What_generally_should_not_be_linked_can_we_bring_this_to_closure

The "one link" rule/enforcement has gotten out of hand, I'm trying to get something closer to rationality. I fully concur with your proposal, "My major reservation is that one needs a positive reason (reason as in "reasoning", not just as in "excuse")to remove a link, whereas a reasonable doubt is an adequate justification for including or retaining a link." (in what states are you admitted to the bar?  :-) I'd appreciate any refinements to the proposal. If it comes to something you'd support to push back the forces of dark underlinking, I'd appreciate that too. Thanks Boundlessly (talk) —Preceding undated comment added 22:04, 23 October 2012 (UTC)

Thanks muchly. I think you may have found the right way to handle this -- when you write something like that, you force the guy on the other side to say "I didn't read anything. I maintain my opinion, for which I've never stated a rationale in the past, and I won't express any supporting rationale now." I think that gets assigned a consensus weight of zero, true? Boundlessly (talk) 01:46, 25 October 2012 (UTC)

You're welcome of course, but rereading your previous remark in which you quote i.a. : "...one needs a positive reason (reason as in "reasoning", not just as in "excuse")to remove a link..." it occurs to me that I made a blunder in not including some such statement in my recommendation. I should have added that just as one needs a positive reason to include a link, one needs a positive reason to remove one. For one thing, one must be quite clear that one understands the objectives of the linker so that one may override them, or recognise the termination of their validity so that one may regard them as expired. Etc. Sorry about that! Cheers, JonRichfieldtalk) 08:34, 25 October 2012 (UTC)

Thank you for your comment. I have been hesitating for days over joining the discussion. Today, I could resist no longer. Cheers! -- Gareth Griffith-Jones/The Welsh Buzzard 13:11, 2 November 2012 (UTC)

Thanks Gareth; you are a right breath of fresh air IMO. In the opinions of some of our correspondents however, I am not so sure that they will agree with me on that point any more than on linking. ;-) I don't know how long you have been lurking, but this has been going on intermittently since before gaffer Mudclogs fell into the pigswill. It is something quite incredible. Calls the Torres Vedras defensive lines to mind. JonRichfield (talk) 19:33, 2 November 2012 (UTC)

Oh, That is really kind of you. Thank you! I admire your skill in dealing with this Ignoramus. What a clown! I took your quotation to Google Translate and this is their answer: "If you spend your headache, you should expect that people will chew." Any comment? All the best, -- Gareth Griffith-Jones/The Welsh Buzzard 20:05, 2 November 2012 (UTC)

Careful mate! My head is pathologically prone to swelling! ;-) My wife and I were bemused and amused at that translation of the proverb. It literally means something like: "If you represent (call, advertise) yourself as toffee (actually a range of local homemade versions; I notice that the version that I knew as a child, that incorporated pine kernels or similar nuts, does not (often?) appear on line; it was delicious, but must have been a local variant) then you must expect people to chew at you." It took me a while to work out how headaches came into this, but finally it clicked; tameletjie is a bit of an old-fashioned tradition in SA, so the word nowadays is less commonly used literally than figuratively, in which connection it means a sticky, stubborn problem, like tough toffee sticking to your teeth. The intent of the proverb is that if you brag, or exhibit vainglorious or sometimes simply insensitive attitudes, you must expect people to be unsympathetic or aggressive towards any attempts to live up to it.

Incidentally, I know of at least one coincidence between Welsh and Afrikaans colloquialisms, one that has intrigued at least one local philologist of my acquaintance when I encountered it in New Scientist a few decades ago: "Dit reën ou meide met knopkieries" ("It is raining old women (disrespectfully expressed) with indigenous war clubs.") This specifically refers to heavy rain with large drops that cause symmetrical splashes, though it also is used loosely to mean "raining cats and dogs". I understand that there is a Welsh saying to the effect that it is raining old ladies with cudgels or the like. Whether a Welsh soldier exported the idea to South Africa in one of the boer wars, or imported it to Wales on going home, I cannot guess, but I suggest either to be likelier than independent creation. All the best, JonRichfield (talk) 06:15, 3 November 2012 (UTC)

I agree with your final suggestion here. My paternal grandfather employed men who had returned after fighting at Rourke's Drift on his timber forest in Carmarthenshire. My father and I saw Stanley Baker's "Zulu" when it came out and afterwards he commented on how closely the film followed the real events as told to him by the ex-soldiers.

I have posted here below your 'bottom line' and managed to resist hyperlinking.

"It was hard."!

Iechyd da! -- Gareth Griffith-Jones/The Welsh Buzzard 10:45, 3 November 2012 (UTC)

Jon, I've given up. I've asked to have my account deleted. Without links to do some of the jobs of stabilizing the internal form of some of the articles, I just don't want the task of managing them. And as long as the overbroad statement of the "one link" rule exists, the task of keeping the scaffolding in place is too hard.

You're on your own, buddy. Sorry to bag out on you. Boundlessly.

Sorry to hear that, really! I do understand though. If you feel like corresponding at any time try me at jonrichfield@gmail.com Cheers, JonRichfield (talk) 20:49, 12 November 2012 (UTC)

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Jon,

Have you considered nominating Cassytha at Wikipedia:Good article nominations? It might need a little polishing up, but it seems quite good to me, and there's a lively quality to the writing that I don't often see on Wikipedia.

Yours, Choess (talk) 02:25, 23 November 2012 (UTC)

Hi Choess, thank you very much. I am much complimented. I had not in fact considered anything of the kind, partly because I am not much into that sort of thing, and partly because I am by nature practically unable to assess the merits (or demerits!) of my own work. I did however go and have another look at the article and did a little housekeeping. I am uncertain whether to follow up on this... Is it important? Cheers for now, Jon JonRichfield (talk) 19:26, 24 November 2012 (UTC)

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Hi! Thanks for correcting my mistaken edit of the Welwitschia article. (I understand now that the formal description does not belong to the said "discoverer".) I do, however, find the current wording bizarre. From what I understand, the plant is ubiquitous in Namib desert and must have been known to humans since prehistoric times. How can one then "discover" it? (Is there likewise a name of a person who has "discovered" the sky?) Perhaps Welwitsch could "bring it to the attention of science"... or? InMemoriamLuangPu (talk) 13:06, 2 December 2012 (UTC)

• I now realize that there is an ongoing discussion on this subject on the talk page of the article. I've added some thoughts there. In short, I find the use of the term "discovered" completely absurd. Were mice never discovered before being given a formal scientific description? And cows? And what about humans themselves? InMemoriamLuangPu (talk) 13:56, 2 December 2012 (UTC)

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I just wanted to say that while I'm (predictably) disappointed by the proposal you chose to endorse, I very much appreciate the tone you adopted while doing so. I wish other editors had shown the level of respect that you have. Thank you. Doniago (talk) 19:36, 20 December 2012 (UTC)

Hi Gareth, my wife and I loved your message and loved the robin (just ached to offer him a mealworm!) I wondered about selecting a pic to post in return. I was out on a local mountain in some blistering weather a couple of days ago, with a stiff breeze keeping beasties' heads down, so I thought I would try for a few nice flowers. Hope you find a few of them cheering to look at in what I presume would be your currently seasonal weather! Warmest greetings, JonRichfield (talk) 19:48, 21 December 2012 (UTC)

• I certainly do. I am now about to copy 'n' paste your delightful reply to my Talk.
  All the best to you and your beloved –
   – Gareth Griffith-Jones |The Welsh Buzzard| 01:56, 22 December 2012 (UTC)

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I'm always pleased to see a referenced list of species, like the one you added to Aloe – far too many plant articles have unreferenced lists, often obtained by merging incompatible and out of date sources.

One small point: unlike zoological nomenclature, botanical nomenclature does not use the date as part of the authority (see e.g. Author citation (botany) or the documentation at Template:Taxobox#Authorities). Dates are not forbidden, although the normal style for authorities in botanical taxoboxes and lists omits the dates (except for paleobotany, where traditions are different). If, unusually, dates are included, then as in the ICN itself, they are normally parenthesized. Peter coxhead (talk) 03:12, 24 December 2012 (UTC)

Thanks Peter. I am no taxonomist, let alone a botanical taxonomist, and least of all a practical taxonomist. I had got my information from a far more compendious table in The Plant List and they had parameters I didn't even understand. Date seemed sensible, so I just lumped it in with the rest. No problem; I'll delete the dates and omit them in future. I must say that I appreciate that Plant List facility. It is tremendously valuable, and I am casting thoughtful eyes on the prospects for using them as a basis for dealing with a lot of other taxons prominent in fynbos, such as Wahlenbergia and Hermannia. Of course using the list as a de facto authority entails reliance on their currently accepted taxonomic schemes, and such schemes have gone like a ball of knitting wool in a blender lately. I nearly went catatonic the first time I saw Agave in the Asparagaceae! I understand why of course, but it does make for an uncomfortable situation. Oh well... Anyway, compliments of the festive season! JonRichfield (talk) 06:37, 24 December 2012 (UTC)

I have, so far, been getting the species lists from the World Checklist of Selected Plant Families directly (for monocots the Plant List overwhelmingly uses WCSP if you look). However, to get WCSP checklists into the right format for Wikipedia is a bit tedious; I have an Excel spreadsheet that does most of the work, but isn't as automated as I would like. I hadn't noticed that the Plant List can generate a CSV file; it should reasonably easy to develop a tool which converts this to wikitext. A project for the future!

As for the Asparagaceae, it will be interesting to see what happens. I know that quite a few specialists are unhappy with the APG's "lumping", which is why a WP:PLANTS discussion led to making the subfamilies much more prominent that they would often be and also the decision to use the automated taxobox system for the "lumped" families. Then if they do get split again, it will be easier to fix. I spent a long time going through the Asparagales putting in the new families and wouldn't like to do this by hand again.

Compliments of the season to you too! Peter coxhead (talk) 15:04, 24 December 2012 (UTC)

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Re the siloxane issue - there is no rush and I will wait for other editors to comment. Here I can respond to a couple of aspects without cluttering the discussion on siloxanes:

You commented, beginning with a quote from me: "Silicone polymers can be made from siloxane rings, but typically are not prepared that way..." [1] This is so irrelevant I can hardly express it. [2] At a guess about half our polymers are not prepared from anything like their obvious monomers. Some of them could hardly be prepared that way at all, and many more it would not be convenient or economic to prepare that way. Would you try to prepare polycarbonates by polymerising carbonates? [3] Or polyesters by reacting acids with alcohols? That would at least be possible, but... I am not sure what point you were making there.

• [1] I was responding to your statement "It is the siloxanes that gets polymerised". This route in fact is typically not the case (i.e. you are wrong). When, however, siloxanes are the precursors to siloxane polymers, that route is called ring-opening polymerization.
• [2] 'This is so irrelevant I can hardly express it'. How is this comment advancing the discussion at hand? Is the tone constructive? Or is the comment intended to remind the reader that you are quite clever and I am not?
• [3] Try Googling "ring opening polymerization cyclic carbonates". Not applicable to BPA-derived materials, but a hot area.

Best wishes and happy editing--Smokefoot (talk) 23:57, 30 December 2012 (UTC)

Hi SM, I'm afraid that I find some difficulty in this communication; one of us might think like the other, but the other certainly doesn't think like the one. However, feel welcome to keep trying; I certainly applaud your avoidance of cluttering the siloxane talk page with this stuff for example. Hurried statements may lack precision, and if it suits you to leap on those as errors, enjoy yourself; I tend to be too busy. When you have located a commercial source of silane monomers, do tell me aallll about it. You might find it instructive to study their reactions and stability. Until you do that, I would rather deal with silyl halides if I want to produce silane polymers, just as I might use oxalic acid chloride when I need a convenient precursor for polyoxalic esters. I would hardly have thought that I should therefore call them polyacidchloride esters; or do you propose a new chemical convention? And if you wanted to produce polyvinyl alcohol and could not obtain a source of vinyl alcohol monomer, would you argue that therefore there is no such thing as polyvinylalcohol? As for irrelevancy, how would YOU have expressed that? And what on Earth is it that you find so novel about ring opening reactions? It just happens to be not a predominant route for silane polymerisation, as you seemed to think. Would you like to speculate why? And if that route were popular it still would have produced polysilanes, some of which could be silicones, some not. Have you got that point straight yet? Right. A good 2013 to both of us; I am not particularly superstitious. Cheers, JonRichfield (talk) 08:52, 7 January 2013 (UTC)

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(I hope I'm writing in the correct place here). Cheers for adding crucian carp stuff. Have read through it, and I like your additions. Currently not got enough time to do any major wikipedia stuff, but from February I should be pretty free to do stuff. The links on the top of your talk page look pretty useful. A small thing -"coldest" is written as "codest" in the physiology section of the crucian carp article. Wise zoologist (talk) 18:17, 11 January 2013 (UTC)

Thanks! Note how one adds a heading to the new reply, otherwise all OK. JonRichfield (talk) 22:25, 11 January 2013 (UTC)

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Good evening Jon,
He seems a good chap; now to play for Wales
Hope all is well with you –
 – Gareth Griffith-Jones |The Welsh Buzzard| 21:11, 20 January 2013 (UTC)

Hello Gareth -- Nice to hear from you! Yes, we are well, and with a lot less snow than some I have heard tell of...  ;-)

As for Andries, to go by his picture, he looks as though he might be better met off the field than on it, once he gets down to business!

Still, anyone ready to sing alongside the Welsh deserves my respect; I couldn't even dream of it! For one thing some of the most passionate passages of traditional Welsh songs move me close to tears, which does nothing for one's ability to carry a tune, even if one has the ear, which I certainly do not.

Incidentally, I think that a great tragey has struck Welsh choral singing; when I was a child one could tell a Welsh choir through a battle in a hurricane; now they sound much like any other choir, most of them better than most of course, but still, what has happened to that wild note? Mind you, the closest one comes to it as far as I can tell is indeed when a rugby crowd does their stuff...

I am out on a limb of course; I like the weirdest music, Ndebele (such as Zulu), Cossack, and of course the old style of Welsh -- and, let it not be told in public, I even like bagpipes, though I draw the line at harpsichord and most German lieder. One must draw it somewhere!

All the best and good luck with the weather,

Jon

Good afternoon Jon,
Great to hear back from you so soon and thank you for a great reply.
Still snowing today off and on. I hate it
All the best to you both!
Sincerely,
Gareth
 – Gareth Griffith-Jones – The WelshBuzzard – 12:41, 21 January 2013 (UTC)

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Just for your amusement Cheers!
 – Gareth Griffith-Jones – The WelshBuzzard – 07:49, 24 January 2013 (UTC)

Ooookay! A right young Barry John or Gareth Edwards, if only he can get out of the stands and onto the field! Well, we all have to start somewhere. ;-) JonRichfield (talk) 11:50, 24 January 2013 (UTC)

Still snowing off and on here.
I had my six-monthly check-up with my dentist yesterday – all in perfectly good order, as usual – and he had returned from his native South Africa just last Saturday, having spent the previous four weeks there. Quite a shock to his system arriving at London Heathrow Airport wearing light clothing. He and I always have a good chat about rugby
 – Gareth Griffith-Jones – The WelshBuzzard – 14:36, 24 January 2013 (UTC)

Hi Gareth, sorry about the low profile. Too much late-ing and sooning at this end. If your dentist had weather as oppressive as we have been having,it is no wonder that he arrived looking forward to a bit of coolth. I have just returned from a 30-minute mercy errand to a pigeon, on foot, in a hurry, in the sun etc etc, and about 10 minutes of your current conditions would go down sweet just at the moment, I assure you! 60 Minutes would certainly be excessive to be sure. Years ago when I was still human I got sent on a journey to the Hague and London, in February, in exceptionally cold weather, frozen canals in Amsterdam etc, and guess what i had been wearing on the plane? And guess where my luggage was? (Try Singapore!) And guess whether it was the start of the weekend... Oh well, all education to a young provincial ;-)

Anyway, I add what I hope will be cheering photos taken recently in my own garden and in the national botanical garden, Kirstenbosch. I don't know whether the thought of my sweltering as I took them will cheer you or not, but do your best!  :-)

Hi Jon!
Ha, ha! Terrific colours – thanks for the treat.
My dentist made no unfavourable reference to the climate. He wanted to stay on longer and might have done when told at short notice that his scheduled flight was cancelled . When he told me that, I said, "You are too conscientious."
Did you ever get your lost luggage?
 – Gareth Griffith-Jones – The WelshBuzzard – 21:00, 29 January 2013 (UTC)

As far as I can tell, South Africans tend to either conscientiousness that a lot of other people regard as near pathological, or to irresponsibility that some others would see as near pathological. I'll not stand bail for either, though I have been lucky to have worked most of my life with the former type. As for the colours, you should see Kirstenbosch in spring! And some of the local mountains and nature reserves could bring one almost to tears. Go well! Jon

You too, Jon!
I guess your luggage was recovered.
 – Gareth Griffith-Jones – The WelshBuzzard – 22:28, 30 January 2013 (UTC)

Gosh, sorry Gareth! I have just inadvertently demonstrated something that drives my family and friends up the wall; I just cannot keep my attention on anything for long enough to get it done properly. I have an email backlog that keeps me looking in the other direction! I had meant to reply to that question, but missed it when it came to fingers on keys. Yes, I did get my luggage back, quite expeditiously, all things considered. I only had to wait till late on the Monday. My friend and colleague was a conscientious tourist and had brought more cabin luggage than i had, so you can be sure that it was a cold February weekend for one South African, who had just come from midsummer some 10000 km south. I had very little ready cash on me, but I still have somewhere a cheap plastic pocket comb I bought from a Dutch kiosk. I might sound a bit cheerless about it now, but actually, young and first time out of the African continent, we did tackle it pretty cheerfully at the time. Since then I have retraced those steps better prepared, and a good few besides, on most of those occasions with wife and children. Spent two years in London on secondment actually. It was rather a wrench to leave behind some of our new friends when we returned to SA. I meant to send you a bird pic this time, but my system has gone mulish. I think it is my ISP doing a major system maintenance. Another day maybe! All the best! Jon

OK! Things seem to be working again. Here are a couple of shots of one of my favourite birds. Lovely eyes and touching habits. See you! Jon

Hi Jon! Glad your PC is back-up-and-running—thanks for introducing me to such lovely, delicate birds. You are a talented photographer.
For my part, I am an unhappy Welshman; if Wales had played half as well in the first half as they played in the second, it would have been a resounding victory. With a score of 3 – 23 at the break, it appeared to be a disaster. Three minutes into the second half and the score was 3 – 30, then Wales went on fire and Ireland were, for most of the time, losing the plot entirely. Final score 22 – 30
So, we will have neither Grand Slam nor Triple Crown this year.
 – Gareth Griffith-Jones – The WelshBuzzard – 19:44, 2 February 2013 (UTC)

Gosh! It must have been a match to watch, whether by Welsh or Irish! Frankly, I have practically given up watching matches of such a type, because when I have an interest in either the winning or losing team I wind up exhausted and often depressed. And when I watch a match between teams I don't know from Atilla the Genghis, my sympathies keep getting engaged by the losing side and flipping as the match progresses. I am like a certain professional cricket commentator who actually walked out of a tight, see-sawing 50:50 knuckle-biter, saying "I can't take any more of this!" If I remember correctly, that match went up to the last ball or possibly the second last. But remember, Gareth: you Celtic sides do a lot of that sort of thing; going in and blowing up when you are the favourites and next match when no one gives you a hope, creaming the top opposition! Oh well, it seems as though Wales might accordingly be the team to bet on next year... Good luck on that one. Go well, Jon

All so true, Jon. My mother told me this when I first started playing "Rugger" at prep school: "Some say Rugby is like a religion to the Welsh. It is not. It is more than religion."
If you were to find a few moments when you would like a laugh at someone else's expense, you may be amused by this I have copied it to my Talk before it is archived from the original project.
 – Gareth Griffith-Jones – The WelshBuzzard – 18:42, 4 February 2013 (UTC)

Honestly Gareth; I don't know whether to be amused or depressed in turn or together... Pee wossname seems to have chosen his monicker well. Part of my depressed feeling arises from contemplating the presumed states of mind, the self-absorption, self-righteousness, and sheer disruptiveness of such little squirts and drips. The very idea of a mind so constrained gives me claustrophobia. This certainly was cheering in the responses the little nit brought on himself, and I shall determinedly concentrate on that aspect. Life is too short for the other! ;-) Cheers, Jon

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I wanted to thank you for taking the lead on that discussion and doing it in such a way as to avoid further acrimony. I'd have done it myself by now, but that situation was starting to raise my ire and I'm sure you know how issues of that nature tend to get pushed back when your time for editing is limited. In any event, clearly the involvement of a third party was helpful here and your comments and the information you provided on point, so thank you. Snow (talk) 01:48, 18 February 2013 (UTC)

You are entirely welcome. Thank you in turn for your courtesy. JonRichfield (talk) 09:03, 18 February 2013 (UTC)

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Just a quick FYI, as you put a bit of work into this, I've tagged with {{Dicdef}} as it appears to be just that. Cheers, Nikthestunned 13:03, 20 March 2013 (UTC)

Hi Nic, Thanks for the heads up. I wonder whether you would mind a bit of a discussion on the topic; not so much this article, though it might make a good specimen, but because I have been much troubled with arguments on what might validly be regarded as a dicdef rather than encyclopaedic. I do understand that WP is not supposed to compete with say, Wikt, and accordingly I have on occasion added several contributions to Wiktionary, sometimes in a mood of generosity, sometimes because I needed a link for a WP article.

I generally used the criterion that if I just wanted to say what something is, possibly garnished with alternatives and etymology, I put it in into Wikt; if I had to explain or enlarge or discuss, I put it into WP. You might of course argue that that is all there is to it, so why fuss? However, usually when in doubt I would ask myself, how would I go about putting such an item of text into a dictionary? If the answer is that I wouldn't, then I put it into WP instead.

Consider "In natural history dapping is the motion that many aquatic flying insects engage in when laying their eggs. Among those best known for such behaviour are some Odonata (dragonflies and damselflies), many Trichoptera (caddisflies), craneflies, mosquitoes, and Ephemeroptera (mayflies).[3] This action is highly attractive to certain fishes, and anglers try to imitate the effect." This is a topic that I could enlarge on and it is not without biological interest (I don't know whether your background includes an interest in evolutionary ecological adaptation) but already it does not strike me as the sort of discussion that Onions would have put into any of his entries.

Conversely, if you point out that some of the other text in the article could well go into a dictionary entry, I protest that that does not disqualify it from being helpful, or even necessary in context, to help a WP article make sense, whether the same material is in a dictionary somewhere or not. For example, if I retained and amplified the description of the the biological text (as I now intend doing) it would not be helpful to omit the explanation of what characterises the motion, or expected the reader to initiate a search to see why the motion of the Odonata should have a special name, and why such a peculiar name. I can vouch for its not being a trivial exercise; that was in fact why I originally created the article to replace the redir.

Could you please criticise one way or the other?

Jon PS, thanks for the talkback hint. (Mind you, I got it wrong at first! ;-( ) JonRichfield (talk) 14:20, 20 March 2013 (UTC)

I don't really follow all of what you're asking, but it sounds like you should take a look at the Wikipedia is not a dictionary policy. If you look at the first section, "Major differences", you'll see that the Dapping article is a dictionary definition and not an encyclopaedic article; specifically it is about the actual word, not "a person, or a people, a concept, a place, an event, a thing". Cheers, Nikthestunned 15:49, 20 March 2013 (UTC)

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—for your rapid response at Philippe-Isidore Picot de Lapeyrouse! Hamamelis (talk) 18:08, 23 March 2013 (UTC)

Only a pleasure! Thanks for prodding me; only the other day I had been looking at the item and thinking I should be doing something about it!  :-) JonRichfield (talk) 18:32, 23 March 2013 (UTC)

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Hi there. On your recent edit to Photosynthesis, you relocated much information in the lead to a newly created 'Introduction' section of the article's body. As the lead, in effect, is the introduction (or at least should be), I find this edit to be counter-intuitive. Furthermore, there was already an 'overview' section of the body, which should, in fact, ultimately be removed or merged into the lead. Right now, we have the clumsy structure of 'lead', further 'introduction', and also an 'overview'. As such, I will revert your edit for now, and encourage you to help shorten the introduction (if that was your motive for relocation), and/or work towards the removal of the 'overview' section. Cheers, EryZ (talk) 06:18, 25 March 2013 (UTC)

Hi Frank, thanks for the heads-up. I shall work on the article as suggested (my effort had been hurried and late at night and I was in fact dealing with an article that I had had very little to do with). However, there is a long-standing confusion or controversy or both concerning the role of ledes in general. (I use the rather repellent term in preference to "lead" because I think it has a specific meaning in context. "Lead" has several alternative meanings that are just about suited to confuse the issue further.) To begin with, subject to some argument, which is not to be settled simply by studying the content of Wikipedia:Manual of Style/Lead section there is a lot of room for disagreement on whether or how the lede should be regarded as the "overview" or "introduction". Some people even seem to think that there should be a relationship between the length of the lede and that of the article, which for various reasons I regard as nonsense. When you come down to it, the concepts are very poorly defined and thought out and the most useful approach is to consider its function in any article one works on and engineer it to suit the requirements, subject to the functional and essential observation: "The lead is the first part of the article most people read, and many people only read the lead". Looked at that way every competently written article, even ignoring stubs, must have a lede, some are all lede, and none the worse, but many (most?) need an introductory section that has nothing to with the lede function in those terms. The photosynthesis article is just such an article, dealing with a large and involved subject. They say, with no logical basis at all, that it should be no more than four paragraphs. I say that it should be as long is will suit its function, whether four or forty, but usually one, and short at that.

Now, you speak of the "clumsy structure of 'lead', further 'introduction', and also an 'overview'", understandably of course, but what I should like to do before we get deeper into the matter, is to agree to an acceptable extent on what sort of structure we could be comfortable with. I think the lede as I left it was pretty well OK (but am open to persuasion) on the basis that it is adequate for any reader to have a quick look at and understand whether he is likely to want to read the rest.

The intro/Overview thing is more difficult; the section is highly necessary, not for any lede function, but to present a structure for the rest of the article to follow. Whether in one section or two (I prefer to combine them) the material the material at present is incoherent and does not form a logical basis for the rest of the article.

So. Any ideas where to go from here? Reject the foregoing? Work on it yourself? Work on it with someone else or a team? Is it a particular interest of yours, or were you just passing? Etc?

Cheers for now, Jon JonRichfield (talk) 10:17, 25 March 2013 (UTC)

Perhaps you know more about the background controversy regarding leads than me, but I personally see leads as a summary of the whole topic in relation to its individual subtopic sections, structured in a logical way to provide the basics and then provide more detail. I therefore don't believe leads should be overly simplified. Because people only read leads, we should instead be working to provide an overview of the article topic not just by quickly summarising it as a whole, but by summarising it in relation to its individual subtopics. The Photosynthesis article talks about photosynthetic organelles, reactions (ie. how photosynthesis is actually carried out), and significance to wider topics, such as its evolutionary role – I think it would be unfair to ignore any of these sections in the lead. On some mobile devices, Wikipedia only shows the lead, in fact, so I like to the think of the lead as giving all the basic information that a reader might want to know about the topic, not just the beginnings of the basics, excluding relevant details in favour of concision. A 'mini-article', even! It shouldn't exclude summary detail of article sections/sub-topics because a lead "should not "tease" the reader by hinting at content that follows".

All that being said, I don't see myself as having any authority in matters relating to the Photosynthesis article, having only worked on the lead, and only recently. I am also not a hugely active contributor to the encyclopedia; I don't have much free time. I would like to see the introduction summarising all the parts of the article, ie. keeping some element of the structure as of current, but I don't mind if it is shortened, perhaps by merging the second and third 'reaction' paragraphs together and removing some detail. I just believe that the introduction you wrote didn't have enough information and was too short.

Cheers, EryZ (talk) 08:12, 26 March 2013 (UTC)

Pity. I can well understand your being too busy to dedicate serious time to WP until your career takes off, if even then, but we are poles apart on the concept of the lede as opposed to the introduction. What you have described is the function I see as the function of the intro, and what I see as the function of the lede you don't seem to see a role for. Unless you have more to say (in which case feel welcome to rattle my cage again) I'll call this a day for now. Cheers, JonRichfield (talk) 11:16, 26 March 2013 (UTC)

Hi Jon. You might like to take a look at this page. There are a lot of different gadgets to help speed up adding references. We should really have some way of alerting regular contributors to these since not many people know about them. (Btw, if you're the same JonRichfield who always wrote in to The Last Word then thank you for all your amazing answers - they were always very interesting to read!) SmartSE (talk) 13:24, 29 March 2013 (UTC)

Hello and much thanks. That was a pretty quick response! Your link looks pretty useful too. I really appreciate your trouble. I plead guilty to the New Scientist charge, but obviously I am the one who should be thanking you, rather than vice versa; I get the fun out of it, and if readers didn't like it, then it would not have been fun. "SmartSE" hmmm? No connection to IBM?

All the best,

Jon JonRichfield (talk) 13:42, 29 March 2013 (UTC)

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Saw your elaboration of the floret definition. Care to deal with cauliflowers? (I don't.) Sminthopsis84 (talk) 16:58, 3 April 2013 (UTC)

Hi Sm. I'm still cackling at that quip! Yeerrss... Brassicas, hm? I think your reserve is prudent. The situation is too complex for just a sentence or so in a definition; I well remember before my teens being told by a teacher that cauliflower really was a flower or at any rate made up of tiny flowers and that if you looked at them with a lens you could see that they were little flowers. Now, I lived in a household in which there were lenses, and I couldn't see any flowers when I looked, so I just dropped the matter. Living on a farm as we did, it was just a matter of time before I saw my first bolted cauliflower, even though it was not a vegetable farm. So eventually I did realise that the "curd" of the cauliflower was actually the "bud" of the inflorescence, though it did not leave me with any enhanced respect for the biological knowledge of that particular primary school teacher.

Now, I don't mind explaining that (omitting all the teacher staff), but then I should like to have an illustration and would you believe, if you go online, in particular to Commons, you can find no end of pictures of cauliflowers, cauliflowers in various colours and sizes and stages of development, but a decent illustration of a bolted cauliflower? No such thing. And I no longer live on a farm. I must ask around and see whether anyone in the neighbourhood grows cauliflowers and can invite me to come and photograph some bolted specimens. Come to think of it, it can't be far from the right season in this region, so I must try to remember to do something like that. I have taken up digital photography recently for purposes of personal interest and supplying pictures to Wikipedia, and I find that with comparatively few exceptions the most valuable pictures are horribly banal examples of everyday objects or everyday aspects of remarkable objects; the sort of thing that no one in his right mind would think of photographing. And bolted cauliflowers are such an example. Give me details if you happen to have any specific suggestions for what material I should be covering or on the lookout for.

Wish me luck!

Cheers

Jon JonRichfield (talk) 17:58, 3 April 2013 (UTC)

Cauliflower curds, oh dear! Yes, there is quite a need for photos, particularly it seems for close-ups of things that few people look at. A friend is involved with producing books that include photos of weed seedlings, apparently farmers are glad to have those photos. Fruit on ordinary garden flowers seem to be severely overlooked as well. Tree bark is so variable, that additional photos seem worthwhile. If I'm feeling energetic I just snap whatever I can, particularly if I know what it is, and check later to see if the photo would usefully augment the collection. Identifying difficult plants for Commons is more than I'm willing to do at present.

By the way, I'd suggest not donating all your pixels to Commons.wikimedia.org; I'd suggest a usefully large photo but not a huge coffeetable-book photo that this guy might want to use. Sminthopsis84 (talk) 18:16, 3 April 2013 (UTC)

Thanks for that tip. I checked the link. Nasty. Must think about it. Also must run. More later if I can find bolted brassicas! JonRichfield (talk) 20:39, 3 April 2013 (UTC)

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Hi Jon, in order to avoid winding up another editor at the taxonomy (biology) page, I'd just like to mention here that I believe that categorization is the making of categories, and taxonomy is a broader concept. I've just added a small quote so far at Taxonomy (general) that touches on the different meanings of similar-looking is-a categories, and that sort of distinction is what I believe is essential to a discussion of taxonomy. Sminthopsis84 (talk) 12:36, 24 April 2013 (UTC)

Hello,

all is said in the title : you clarified what I originally wrote in the French edition and roughly translated in the English edition. I will use your own English version to edit the French article Carlo Colussi (talk) 10:49, 30 April 2013 (UTC)

Thanks Carlo, you are entirely welcome. Cheers, Jon JonRichfield (talk) 11:22, 30 April 2013 (UTC) Thank you Carlo Colussi (talk) 06:59, 3 May 2013 (UTC)

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I just had occasion to check a wikilink to Parenchyma from a plant article, and was surprised by the content of the article. Your comments on the talk page seemed very apt to me. Parenchyma simply doesn't seem to be a term used in modern zoology textbooks, as far as I can tell, whereas it's still widely used in botany.

Do you still have any views on this article? I note that you were going to do some more work on it. Personally I'd be inclined to move any extra botanical material to Ground tissue#Parenchyma (I'm not sure there is any) and then nominate the article for deletion.

(While I'm here, out of curiosity, are you the Jon Richfield that is always answering queries in the New Scientist?) Peter coxhead (talk) 14:26, 30 July 2013 (UTC)

Hi Peter,

Frankly I had nearly forgotten about the article. I have a nasty affliction of "out of sight out of mind", and there are several Wiki articles that I had made pious noises about improving. I checked and you are quite right. Mea culpa. I think I had lost some of my first fine enthusiasm because everyone else had kept mum and I foresaw some friction. Still, given that your reaction seems reminiscent of mine, maybe I have a duty to sit down and tackle the text properly. I cannot nominate the article for deletion in good faith, because in the past it was fairly widely used in zoology and in its (mainly recent and to my mind eccentric) usage it still is technically acceptable, though, apparently like you, I had never encountered it in zoology (I am not much of a histologist) and having found it I don't like it much; it strikes me as a sloppy usage. In the botanical context I am happy to accommodate your preferences, either putting the main text into another article with a link from this one, or vice versa. Things are a bit fraught at the moment, but if you don't see anything in the next week or so, please rattle my cage again.

Yes, I do contribute to Last Word, though they seem to have replaced the editor with someone new recently and I have had to swallow pretty hard to accept some of the alterations to my replies. Occasionally the changes are totally henwitted. I breathe deeply, stare at the ceiling and try to errr... think of England? Well, let's say of something else anyway. I long thought I was the only Jon Richfield, but there seems to be one in the USA at least. Some day I might look him up, but what does one say? "Snap"? Not the hottest line in small talk, I'd think!  :-)

Cheers,

Jon JonRichfield (talk) 14:58, 30 July 2013 (UTC)

I've taken out all the plant stuff from Parenchyma and done some work on Ground tissue. (I think that Ground tissue would actually be better split into three articles; there's almost no common material.) Let's see if there's any reaction to my changes.

I've been a New Scientist reader for some 50 years now (I used to get a free copy by selling others at my secondary school). I almost always start with Last Word, so your name has become very familiar in recent years! Thanks for the contributions. Peter coxhead (talk) 18:24, 30 July 2013 (UTC)

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Thanks for your thoughtful comment! However you put it in a section about whether to unmerge first, and I think you meant it to be part of the survey in the section above... your suggestion was creative and interesting and I want to be sure it is considered with the others when the RfC is closed.. Thank again. Jytdog (talk) 14:16, 30 August 2013 (UTC)

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Thank you for your good faith edits to William Walton, but as they are in conflict with the Manual of Style ("Generally, a link should appear only once in an article, but if helpful for readers, links may be repeated in infoboxes, tables, image captions, footnotes, and at the first occurrence after the lead") I have restored the former version. In truth, for long "Life and Works" articles on composers there has been agreement at FAC that it can be helpful to the reader to have one link from the Life and a single duplicate from the Works section, but no more. See the FAC page for Britten. Regards. Tim riley (talk) 16:30, 27 November 2013 (UTC)

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I had reached out to all the parties on numerous occasions, so I am sorry if I do not still understand the rules. I am assuming that everyone is acting in good faith, but it is hard for me to know what to do when there is little communications. I do not think you need to be involved because I am not trying to re-litigate the issue, I just did not understand why there were continued activities on the disputed page after I agreed not to pursue the primary issue while continuing a side conversation with another editor in the meantime.Bob the goodwin (talk) 20:00, 15 January 2014 (UTC)

Hi Bob. Largely for lack of time I have not followed the topic closely enough to take sides in this matter, and do not intend to. You will note that my objection had more to do with reasonable conduct than with the substance of the matter. Many editors take great satisfaction in adopting and enforcing very doctrinaire attitudes with each other in general and wit newbies in particular. I am afraid that it is one of the realities of life in WP, and the consequences are very harmful. I can only encourage you to pursue the current matter very lightly and let it go for a while once anything like a temporary truce is attainable, even if it means knuckling under. Instead tackle some other topics; WP is full of constructive stuff to work on, not all of it controversial, and not all of it in the sights of obsessives (I am not saying what the status of the current topic is, because, as I have said, I have not gone into it.) After a few encounters in other articles you either might chuck the whole lot, or come to see things the other way, or see how to re-approach this topic in a more defensible mode. The best approach is neither to fight nor to fold, but to try first to achieve consensus, or compromise, or to request arbitration of one form or another if you reckon that someone is sabotaging the process. JonRichfield (talk) 06:47, 16 January 2014 (UTC)

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Hello JonRichfield,

I wanted to let you know that I just tagged Branchipodopsis for deletion, because it seems to be copied from another source.

If you feel that the article shouldn't be deleted and want more time to rewrite it in your own words, you can contest this deletion, but please don't remove the speedy deletion tag from the top.

You can leave a note on my talk page if you have questions. ColonelHenry (talk) 06:34, 29 January 2014 (UTC)

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Are these pictures are not of Key lime? Thanks for the correct spelling. Jee 17:27, 30 January 2014 (UTC)

Hello Jee. Yes, for all I can tell, they might be, but there is already a very similar picture (in my opinion somewhat better, but I would not argue the point) at the section on harvesting. No point to having them both. The original picture of the sliced lime has the merit of showing the flesh colour and thereby distinguishing it from the "Persian" hybrid. Now, there is no reason to deny anyone the right to swap the position of the sliced lime and the limes on the twig, but the whole limes are labelled "ready to harvest", so it seems more logical to show them where they are. But I am open to discussion, and even if I were not, it is not my article! Cheers, Jon JonRichfield (talk) 17:55, 30 January 2014 (UTC)

Thanks for the detailed reply. (yes, I'm watching pages where I make a question or request; but probably living in a different time zone, so the late response.)

I replaced those pictures due to a few reasons:

1. I doubt whether they are Key limes. File:Citrus lime.png is available in Commons as Lime; not identified to any further. File:Key lime.jpg looks like a Lemon. Key limes are dark green in colour with a rough and non-smooth surface. They turned to yellow when ripe; but harvested before turning to yellow. That is why I added the edit note "correct subjects"; not "better pictures" that I commonly use.

2. We usually prefer in vivo pictures in infoboxes than collected specimens as they have more EV and shows the environment and related properties too. In File:Citrus aurantifolia at Kadavoor.jpg, we can see the leaves, thorny twigs (a feature that distinguish it from a Persian lime).

Just my opinions, and I too open to opinions and suggestions; don't want to "own" any pages. :) Thanks again. Jee 05:28, 31 January 2014 (UTC)

commons:Category:Citrus aurantiifolia already exists as the parent category; so contents moved and category redirected. Thanks, Jee 18:28, 31 January 2014 (UTC)

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Hey there, just wanted to let you know that I expanded the Oxyopes salticus stub that you created. I kept your pictures, though formatted the captions and placement slightly, I hope that's not a problem! Thanks AlaskaDave25 (talk) 16:53, 19 March 2014 (UTC)

Hi Dave

Of course it's not a problem! It wouldn't be a problem even if I had been actively watching the page. In the event I actually had forgotten about ever having touched it; I must have found it looking particularly forlorn as a stub long ago. Thanks for working on it! Cheers, JonRichfield (talk) 19:06, 19 March 2014 (UTC)

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Hello, and welcome to Wikipedia. This is a notice that the page you created was tagged as a test page under section G2 of the criteria for speedy deletion and has been or soon may be deleted. Please use the sandbox for any other tests you want to do. Take a look at the welcome page if you would like to learn more about contributing to our encyclopedia.

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Now at User:JonRichfield/William Bywater Grove - best place for starting things. You're safer from patrollers (except for spam, attack and copyvio - can't see you going in for those...). Peridon (talk) 18:37, 21 April 2014 (UTC)

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Thanks for your comments there. Agree that the discussion has been dominated by what I see as bad behaviour, and I confess to having been accused of it myself, although I'm not convinced it's true... but I admit there have been times when I've found it very difficult not to counter-attack, and perhaps at times I have.

Any comments on my behaviour there by yourself would be more than welcome on my talk page. Yes, that's asking for it!

But again, thanks for your comments. They were extremely helpful to me at least, and echoed many things that I had been unable to articulate. Andrewa (talk) 14:17, 25 April 2014 (UTC)

@Andrewa Sorry, I have apologised on your own page for replying there instead of here as requested. JonRichfield (talk) 14:49, 25 April 2014 (UTC)

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Hello Jon. Just to let you know that having appreciated your work on this I felt it might be useful to highlight your proposal on the Medicine project talk page. Hope I've understood your intentions correctly. Best wishes, 86.128.169.211 (talk) 22:55, 23 June 2014 (UTC)

Thanks 86. I have responded more or less to this suggestion on the talk page RFC. I am not yet certain what to say, or to whom to say it. By all means feel welcome to preempt me on it, but as I don't have the project talk page on my watch list, if you wish me to participate in any initiative, it might be good to prod me. (I won't be offended! :) ) JonRichfield (talk) 08:33, 24 June 2014 (UTC)

Hi, sorry about the ambiguous wording there... What I was actually trying to let you know was that I'd made a post on WT:MED to alert interested parties to your proposal on the Iatrogenesis talk page. Of course, you're also welcome to post at WT:MED, but I certainly wouldn't want to push you in any way. I feel your proposal has, at the very least, the not inconsiderable merit of having elicited constructive talk about a potential Harm page. It seems to me that it's an obvious, and rather relevant, gap in the MED coverage, doubtless due to the fact that the topic is fraught with difficulties. I feel your contribution is a really helpful one, and I wouldn't like to see it consigned to the distant talk-page archive of a satellite topic. 86.128.169.211 (talk) 20:50, 24 June 2014 (UTC)

btw, sorry for the stupid edit summary -- wisecracks never were my strong point. —86.128.169.211 (talk) 23:05, 24 June 2014 (UTC)

This is the fact of the matter, regardless what the minority view may be. You cannot hide what so many South African history texbooks, historical records and for crying out loud Smuts' own quotes have made clear. Smuts did not bother to grant the majority their rights, it is well known that during negotiation with Gandhi he refused to grant rights. The article itself discusses this issue and has made provision of sources, kindly read over them. Smuts may at a point in time altered his views distancing himself from the NP's policies but this was only to a minor degree. It is a general fact never agreed to give equality to people of colour. --SanamBh (talk) 15:11, 24 June 2014 (UTC)

Kindly keep your sermons and tirades for those who need them. WP is not your personal soapbox. If you are so religiously committed to stating your version of the facts then fine: you won't have to worry about my pestering you for one thing, but then phrase your text in non-POV mode and supply the refs like any other editor. Encyclopedic content must be verifiable. If that is too much trouble for you, then don't expect anyone else to respect your views. If you persist in replacing that text without refs and appropriate contexts, I not only will revert them, but will pass it on for arbitration and you will find yourself blocked. Why should you claim special privileges in WP? JonRichfield (talk) 19:53, 24 June 2014 (UTC)

If you found that as an attack then you have my sincere apologies, as that was not my intention. I am referring the section discussing Smuts' views on segregation (in the actual article Jan_Smuts#Smuts_and_segregation); the section provides adequate sources - therefore is factual and verifiable content. I was defending the statement in the introduction which essentially summarized this section, which you insisted on removing for whatever reason. --SanamBh (talk) 20:26, 24 June 2014 (UTC)

In return please accept my apologies for an acerbic response. You might find it helpful in future communications to reflect that this medium of correspondence is fraught with problems of representation of tone, and accordingly requires a higher degree of caution in wording, both in articles and on talk pages, than in personal contact; a remark that in audible and visible speech might have passed unremarked, might easily be misinterpreted as offensive, such as: "You cannot hide what so many South African history texbooks, historical records and for crying out loud Smuts' own quotes have made clear."

Furthermore, the remark "He was a supporter of racial segregation and white minority rule" taken out of context (or where you placed it) amounts to invective in our day, a suggestion that it was his idea and that he did it in the face of the rest of the liberal country. For his time and place he was in fact moderate, and labelled as a "kafferboetie" by Nat supporters in his day.

Your remark "Smuts did not bother to grant the majority their rights, it is well known that during negotiation with Gandhi he refused to grant rights" reads curiously; "Did not bother???" Are you suggesting that as Prime Minister it was open to him to wake up one morning and say: "Hey, I'm full of beans today; I think I feel in the mood to bother to grant everyone of colour their rights today"? He would have been out of office the same day on the vote of his own party, and there still would have been no rights for blacks. You doubt it? Think back to the seventies, when the Nats were in power more firmly than the ANC today, and their first faint stirrings towards slackening the reins provoked the emergence of the KP and HNP.

Far more to the point though, all this has nothing to do with why I reverted your insertion. If I wished (I don't, politics bore and nauseate me, and history is a largely uncreative creation of non-historians and sometimes less unimaginative re-creation of professional historians. (Don't bother to call me on that one; just read a few accounts, not necessarily rival accounts, of the same event by different authors.) ) I could take your snippet and with hardly an edit, insert it into the life history of Lincoln, Jefferson, Twain, Roosevelt, Churchill, Olive Schreiner, Harriet Beecher Stowe, Ioseb Jugashvili and Joel Chandler Harris. Judging people out of their context and according to one's own standards is not just unreasonable, but unrealistic.

More relevantly, it is POV and SYNTHESIS and all sorts of things listed as evil according to WP.

You will notice that when Sminthopsis84 edited the snippet the remark was: "revised to what is supported by the article". You might wish to argue the success of the intention, but the point is that that should be the intention at least, whereas the original was downright misleading. What I recommend you do if the Smuts topic is of interest to you, is to read the lede carefully, sleep on it, and try to edit that bit (and the rest if you like) and edit it in such a manner that no reader of the lede would get an impression that is drastically different from what the main body of the article conveys. (No easy job!!!)

In his day Smuts may have been a poisonous piece of work in many ways, (my family disliked him intensely for reasons based on personal experience, but voted for him) but in terms of political rights he was a somewhat autocratic middle-of-the-roader, not a Stalin. In fact, his admonitions to the Nats from late in WWII onwards, that the path they were following flew in the face of the emerging first-world international moral climate, was positively left-of-centre for the time. It wasn't just a matter of distancing himself from their position; if anything it was political self-sacrifice, given the national mood of the day. If you convey anything worse than that in the lede, you are going beyond your WP brief and your moral right. JonRichfield (talk) 09:05, 25 June 2014 (UTC)

Thank you very much for that. I will take precaution in the future. The statement that the user Sminthopsis84 has inserted seems adequate enough. I would say leaving out the statement altogether is rather misleading. I would still argue that Smuts was a supporter of white minority rule however I feel the body of the article discusses this in a fair manner already, therefore I prefer to leave it as is. I agree passing Smuts as a racist in the article would be outrageous (as much as calling Gandhi a racist on his WP page and Bin Laden a terrorist on his) however concerning my moral right I will not compromise on it. However that is POV and I am not here to enforce this, anyway that drifts away from the point. I thank you once again for your insight and clarification, it is much appreciated and I apologize once again for what may seem as an attack. It was done in much haste and is littered with presumptions. --SanamBh (talk) 10:47, 25 June 2014 (UTC)

I too much regret that in my impatience I permitted what should have been a calm exchange of views to expand into a very uncomfortable situation. I admire your ability to retrieve and accept a reasonable understanding and atmosphere. JonRichfield (talk) 10:56, 25 June 2014 (UTC)

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Ok, I tried to be respectful considering that you seem to be old, but could you bother to talk less like an old person full of smug and bother to talk in a way that you articulate your points so people can understand them? Nergaal (talk) 08:18, 21 August 2014 (UTC)

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