Talk:Sisowath Kossamak

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Participate in the deletion discussion at the nomination page. —Community Tech bot (talk) 17:37, 29 May 2020 (UTC)Reply

This article is often changed by users who claim that she was a monarch in 1960-1970. I have reverted such a change today. It was referenced, but the reference did not say she was a monarch, it said she performed ceremonial duties for the monarchy, which is not the same thing as being a monarch.

The article text clearly state that she was never a monarch: it describes that Shihanouk was the chief of state in 1960-1970, he just didn't have the title king. He was called prince instead of king, but whatever title he had, he was nevertheless the actual monarch. And like any member of the royal family, she of course performed ceremonial duties for the monarchy. She in fact had a central role in representational duties, but you can be a royal, perform ceremonial duties, by viewed as a central symbol of the monarchy and be an importan royal figure, without being a monarch.

People who continue to insert that she was a monarch should read the article, which clearly explains this, and has references for those explanations. The referenced information in the artcile explains that the constitution banned female succession, and that while there were discussions to change the constitution so that she could be monarch, it was ultimately never done, and instead she simply kept her title queen and performed ceremonial duties for the monarchy without being a monarch.

If people continue to add that she was a monarch, the referenced text which clearly explains that she was not would be contradicted and the whole article would make no sense. If she was not formally a monarch, she cannot be listed as such in Wikipedia.--Aciram (talk) 12:03, 1 August 2021 (UTC)Reply

Again, a user has rewritten that article to claim that she was a reigning monarch, despite the reference very clearly explaining that she was not. The article very clearly explain this matter in detail:

Quote: "When king Norodom Suramarit died in 1960, a demonstration took place in Battambang in which the protestors called for the widowed Queen Kossamak to take the throne as a ruling monarch.[3]

However, Article 25 of the Constitution prohibited her succeeding to the throne because of the stipulation that ‘the Throne of Cambodia is the heritage of the male descendants of King Ang Duong’.[3] Her brother Prince Monireth was in favour of changing the Constitution, to allow his sister to be instated as sovereign in her own right.[3] Considering the monarchy in a dubious situation, when Sihanouk was not willing to ascend the throne again not to allow his children to do so, the Council of Regency did propose to him that the constitution be changed so that his mother could succeed to the throne.[3] However, Prince Sihanouk refused to agree to the suggestion because of his uneasy relationship with his mother and his unwillingness to allow anyone but himself as head of state. He commented his refusal with the comment that ‘Only God understands the reasons why I do not want my mother to ascend the throne.’[3] Among the Khmer Republic literati, Sihanouk's refusal to allow his mother to succeed in 1960 was blamed his being ‘blinded by his passion for his wife Monique’,[3] who was known for not getting along with her mother-in-law.Instead, Norodom Sihanouk himself again ascended the throne and succeed his father as head of state, although he did abstain from regaining the title of king. Once again head of state and monarch from 20 June 1960, he reorganised the royal palace and royal court were his mother lived. Contrary to what is sometimes alleged, Queen Sisowath Kossamak thus did not succeed her late spouse, and never ascended to the throne as ruling monarch. Her brother Prince Monireth commented the matter in his memoirs that it was a shame that his sister had not been born male so she could have succeeded to the throne:‘What a King we would have in Her! Certainly with Her, a great many disagreements, and a great deal of foolishness could have been avoided’." End quote.

This text explain very clearly that she was not monarch, and this information is referenced. Despite of this, the article is changed again and again by a user who seem not to understand this. Perhaps there is a confusion caused by the fact that she continued to have the title queen, and continued to perform representational duties. But there is no reason for this confusion.

The matter is made very clear: she was never monarch. Her son was a monarch and called himself Prince while being monarch, while she was not monarch, she just had the title queen and performed representational duties, which is perfectly possible to do without being a monarch.

The user claimed to have read the reference and that it does not explicitly say she was never monarch, but I do not understand how much more clear the reference can be, since it does explain in detail above why she was not monarch: the constitution did not allow it, her son refused to change it and allow her to be monarch, her brother commented that she would have been a good monarch if she had been allowed to become one. ::If the user are not able to understand that this mean she was not monarch, then this must be reported to wikipedia.--Aciram (talk) 00:10, 30 July 2024 (UTC)Reply

Of course, I read the book 'Lost Goddesses'. Anyone can read that book -> ( https://books.google.com/books?id=-9unZvFaiREC&pg=PA183 ) However, there is no statement that Sihanouk was monarch in the 1960s. You made that sentence.

There are many references that say Kossamak was a monarch.

[[1]]

"In 1960 Sihanouk's father, King Suramarit, died. After a series of maneuvers, Sihanouk had himself named Cambodia's chief of state with his mother, Queen Kossamak, continuing to serve as a monarch for ceremonial purposes."

[[2]]

"A woman occupied the throne of Cambodia from 1960 but her politi- cal power was virtually non-existent."

[[3]]

"Sisowath Kossamak Nearireath, daughter of King Sisowath Monivong and Queen Norodom Kanviman Norleak Thevi, continued to rule after the death of her husband King Suramarit"

[[4]]

"Pictures of Sihanouk's mother, Queen Kossamak, a nonruling monarch but a symbol of royal permanence, were quickly stripped from government buildings."

[[5]]

"In 1960, King Suramarit died and Sihanouk became permanent Head of State, with his mother, Queen Kossamak performing as the ceremonial monarch."

She was just a ceremonial monarch or disputed monarch. So I wrote she was a disputed queen or ceremonial queen.

Other users removed the words 'disputed' and 'ceremonial'.

[[6]]

[[7]]

These are not removals I made.

I first edited this page in 2023. However, Aciram you first edited this page in 2020. And you've been removing references added by other users for years. Why?

I know you also have written incorrect information on the page Tandu Khatun.

[[8]]

Fatema Mernissi always said that Tandu Khatun was a sovereign. But why did you write that Tandu Khatun was a regent? You often write down sentences you make up.

I know you also have written incorrect information on the page Queen Tey.

[[9]]

You wrote that she reigned for three months. The book 'Lost Goddesses' didn't say "three months." Anyone can read that book -> ( https://books.google.co.kr/books?id=-9unZvFaiREC&pg=PA87 ) You often write down sentences you make up.

This must be reported to wikipedia.

Do you know Theodora (wife of Theophilos) and Eudokia Makrembolitissa? Some references say they were regents, some say they were monarchs. Wikipedia shows all those references. There have been many disputed monarchs throughout history. Respect all references.

The person who added Kossamak to the page 'List of female monarchs' was 'User:119.13.157.48'.

[[10]]

The person who added Kossamak to the page 'Monarchy of Cambodia' was 'User:SovanDara'.

[[11]]

They are not me. Do you think there is only one person who disagrees with your argument? But only one person does not describe Kossamak as a monarch. 'User:Aciram' is the only one who claims that Kossamak is not a monarch. You are the only one who has denied many references and other users for years since 2020. Acolex2 (talk) 21:30, 30 July 2024 (UTC)Reply