Talk:Bert Jansch

I have added a lot of details, summarised from the Doug Kennedy book which I have referenced. Although this is a music book, not a biography, it appears to have been written with Jansch's co-operation: the transcriptions seem very authentic and are accompanied by some quotes from Jansch. Hence, I think the details are likely to be accurate. Bluewave 17:51, 3 December 2005 (UTC)Reply

Can someone please add the pronunciation of "Jansch"? Is the J pronounced as a J or a Y? It looks as if his surname might be of Germanic origin (?). Badagnani 06:46, 30 March 2006 (UTC)Reply

The great majority of people seem to pronounce like a Y but I have talked to someone who knew Bert in the 1960s and consistently pronounces it like J. Bluewave 06:54, 30 March 2006 (UTC)Reply

I just found a reference and added it to the article. Was just listening to Solomons Seal while getting my car repaired this morning. What a great group Pentangle was. Badagnani 06:58, 30 March 2006 (UTC)Reply

The reference to "Black Swan" being released in September 2005 was surely a mistake for September 2006. The notes related to it have been re-framed into the past tense, and moved into the main body. The untidy brackets have been tidied.

I have had a bash at citing sources for most of the statements made in the article, and have taken the opportunty to add a bit more material. Also added sections about his guitars and his influence. It would now probably benefit from a good review by someone else. Bluewave 12:54, 2 October 2006 (UTC)Reply

There might be more than one folk club in London called the horseshoe, but the only one I have been able to track down is the one in the pub called the Horseshoe in Islington. NOT Tottenham Court Road. Does anyone have a citation to support the claim that there was ever a club called the Horseshoe in Tottenham Court Road? There is certainly no pub of that name there now. I'll give you a couple of months, and if nothing is forthcoming, and I am very inclined to change the text from "Tottenham Court Road" to "Islington". Here again, I have found no evidence that he founded that club either, but at least the geography will be verifiable, and that club still exists. Ogg 19:12, 24 October 2006 (UTC)Reply

One references: Jacqui McShee's website includes: "Pentangle first performed together at the Horseshoe Pub in London's Tottenham Court Road, late in 1967" [1] quoted from a Pentange programme I think.Bluewave 07:56, 25 October 2006 (UTC)Reply

Have done a bit more research today. London phone book for 1970 has "Horseshoe Hotel", Tottenham Court Road, W1, so this is a possibility. The Doug Kennedy book says "Bert, and John Renbourn started the 'Horshoe' folk club in Tottenham Court Road". Bluewave 19:10, 25 October 2006 (UTC)Reply

This link:

• http://www.deadpubssociety.org.uk/index.php?title=The_Horseshoe

suggests that it was a jazz club rather than a folk club, and that it was at 264-267 Tottenham Court Road (now Gultronics). In the 70's it became jazz club JAFFAS:

• http://www.beatonic.co.uk/paulmurphy.htm

It is mentioned twice in "Electric Folk" by Britta Sweers (2005), in both cases in 1967 only, but in neither case is it suggested that it was a folk club. If Jansch had actually founded it, I think there would be more than one source to support it. If he did found it, he can't have been hosting it for long, because in 1967/8 he catapulted himself into super-stardom, too expensive for a small venue. The Islington folk club (now at the Horseshoe) is one of the 3 or 4 oldest folk clubs in London, and certainly out-ranks the Tottenham Court Road venue in importance. Would you be terribly upset if the square bracks were removed, and the words "folk and jazz" replaced "folk"? Ogg 20:05, 25 October 2006 (UTC)Reply

I think you're right that Kennedy was using "Folk club" in a very general sense and I would support your "folk and jazz" suggestion. There are several refs to them playing at the Horseshoe in Tottenham Ct Rd, so I think that part is OK. As for who founded the club, I can only find Kennedy supporting Jansch/Renbourn, so agree this may be doubtful. One other ref is the Unterberger book which quotes Ian Anderson of fRoots "Bert and John set themselves up in a club in Tottenham Court Road. They had a residency for some months.Basically, it was experimental. I don't think they rehearsed what they were doing very much..." I couldn't find a mention of the Horseshoe on Renbourn's website, although he does mention Les Cousins (incidentally I have been thinking about starting a Les Cousins article!) Bluewave 13:16, 26 October 2006 (UTC)Reply

Stop press! I've just found this article[2] from the Scotsman, quoting Bert: "Jansch met the guitarist John Renbourn. 'We shared a flat, and we got fed up with the Cousins scene because it was an all-night affair. If you were booked to play there you had to be there from midnight til dawn. There was a guy called Bruce Dunnett, who was a left-wing Scotsman, a communist, but he was an entrepreneur. He ran this club for us, the Horseshoe. Me and John were looking towards getting a band together, but anyone could get up and play. Sandy Denny was there. Various drummers and bass players. And out of it came Pentangle.'" Bluewave 13:24, 26 October 2006 (UTC)Reply

That sounds pretty definitive. We seem to have some sort of concensus along the lines of: "Renbourn and Jansch frequently played together, developing their own intricate interplay between the two guitars, often referred to as Folk Baroque. In 1966, they recorded the Bert and John album together, featuring much of this material. Late in 1967 they tired of the all-nighters at Les Cousins and helped Bruce Dennett set up a music venue at The Horshoe pub (now defunct) at 264-267 Tottenham Court Road. Sandy Denny was there. Jacqui McShee began singing with the two guitarists and, with the addition of Danny Thompson (string bass) and Terry Cox (drums), they formed the group, Pentangle. The venue evolved into a jazz club, but by then the group had moved on. ... In 1968 Jansch married ... etc". I leave it up to you to do the honours. Ogg 20:19, 26 October 2006 (UTC)Reply

OK. Thanks. Have done. I changed your words slightly....feel free to improve! Bluewave 13:12, 27 October 2006 (UTC)Reply

Best of luck with the "Les Cousins" article. Here are some starter notes towards it:

The "Les Cousins" club in the basement of a Greek Restaurant in 48 Greek Street (several sources give Frith Street instead) might have been named after the Claude Chabrol film of the same name (1959). It was formed about 1963-4. (http://renbourn.camhosts.net/sohoyears.htm) Everyone pronounced it as if it was was English, not French. Run by Alexis Korner, first resident was Noel Murphy (Who he? - http://www.tudorfolkclub.org.uk/tudarch_2003_1.htm)

Roy Harper was a resident (http://www.bbc.co.uk/berkshire/content/articles/2005/10/03/roy_harper_event_feature.shtml)

In November 2004 it was revived for a Nick Drake Tribute (http://www.martin-kingsbury.co.uk/articles/drake%20tribute.htm)

Roy Harper (album called "Live at Les Cousins 8/30/69" on "Blue Print". Originally released in 1996)

The "Spontaneous Music Ensemble" (John Stevens and Evan Parker plus Peter Koward) also recorded there in 1967 (http://www.emanemdisc.com/E4005.html)

There is a photograph of it here (http://sg.imess.net/greek.htm)

Also present: Andy Matthews, Sandy Denny, Jackson C Frank, Ralph McTell, Martin Carthy, Al Stewart, John Martyn, Linda Thompson, Julie Felix, Bridget St John, Alex Campbell, Ogg 12:37, 28 October 2006 (UTC)Reply

See Les Cousins (music club) where I've made a start. Bluewave 17:35, 30 October 2006 (UTC)Reply

I have done a slight re-edit of the article, based on the Colin Harper biography. Harper has researched the subjetc thoroughly and includes some 35 pages of notes and citations, so I am taking it is the most reliable source unless there is a good reason to doubt it. I have, for instance:

• added mention of first marriage;
• expanded section on the 80s and included mention of Jansch's drinking;
• added mention of Avocet, which Jansch himself rates highly
• and a few other corrections, additions and changes of emphasis.

Hope this has improved the article. Other views always welcome! Bluewave 11:31, 10 January 2007 (UTC)Reply

This article has been greatly improved and I have changed the guitarist page template to reflect that. Kudos to all editors who have worked on this article. I would recommend that you put it up for a GA review. Following the scutiny of that process I believe this article could be pushed up to FA status. Good luck! Cheers and take care! Anger22 (Talk 2 22) 14:31, 10 January 2007 (UTC)Reply

Thanks to Anger22 for reviewing the article. As suggested, I have nominated it for GA review. Bluewave 15:26, 10 January 2007 (UTC)Reply

I was very happy to read this article. I found it well-written and informative. However, I believe it should be placed on hold until the following issues are addressed:

• Consider using {{Infobox musical artist}} instead of the guitarist infobox. Mr. Jansch is an influential guitarist, but he's also more than just a guitarist. Or, if the guitarist infobox must be used, then fill in the notable instruments field.
• Great free-use image! However, all album-cover images need fair-use rationales.
• Write some proper photo captions. Make them complete sentences. On the album covers, grab a notable fact about the album from the article and make it the caption. [Example: The debut album Bert Jansch was released in 1965 and went on to sell 150,000 copies.] If someone browsing the page was only reading the captions, they could still come away with some useful information.
• Please see WP:MOS-T. Album titles are italicised, song titles should be in quotes.
• Provide more wikilinks to technical musical terms like chord, sharp, flat and time signature.
• Under partial discography, there's no need to say "Wikipedia article". All that's needed is this:

See also: Pentangle

• The discography is neither very pretty nor easy to read. Maybe break that section into two columns. Italicise the album titles. Consider dropping the months from the release dates and try the years first, like this:

• 1965 – Bert Jansch
• 1965 – It Don't Bother Me
• 1966 – Bert and John (with John Renbourn)

• Has this article had a peer review? If not, consider withdrawing the GA nomination and putting it through the process. Or, while it's on hold, run it through the automated peer review, which can be found here. — WiseKwai 10:26, 16 January 2007 (UTC)Reply

Thanks for reviewing the article! OK, I've made a start.

• Album title italicised, songs quoted — done.
• "See also" changed as suggested. — done
• Discography reformatted. Reformat as suggested (OK but I'm sorry to lose the months) — done.Bluewave 14:53, 16 January 2007 (UTC)Reply
• Guitarist infobox. My inclination is to leave this. The rationale is that Jansch developed as a writer and musician through being primarily a guitarist. I don't think he would have made his original album or done the pioneering folk baroque work with Renbourn, or formed Pentangle, etc, without being noted as a gifted and innovative guitarist first. The plaudits from people like Jimmy Page and Neil Young seem to relate to his guitar work too (certainly I doubt if they refer to his singing!) In some ways, I would compare him with, say, Clapton, who also writes, sings, etc, but is first and foremost a guitarist (and has a guitarist infobox). I'll put in something about his guitars: he has long had a deal with Yamaha although he has used all sorts of guitars, particularly in the early days. His first album was reputedly recorded using a borrowed guitar. Harper's biography includes documentary evidence of at least one occasion when Jansch failed to turn up for a gig because he didn't manage to borrow a guitar (or the money for his travel costs)! Bluewave 15:11, 16 January 2007 (UTC)Reply
• Added Yamaha to infobox — done
• Fair use rational for pics — done
• Captions for pics — done
• Wikilinks. esp. musical terms — done Bluewave 16:54, 16 January 2007 (UTC)Reply
  • Now that you've explained the reasoning behind the guitarist infobox, I support that and can now see why it would be used for someone like Eric Clapton. — WiseKwai 19:32, 16 January 2007 (UTC)Reply

Automated peer review, as suggested above, comes up with the following: The following suggestions were generated by a semi-automatic javascript program, and might not be applicable for the article in question.

• Please expand the lead to conform with guidelines at Wikipedia:Lead. The article should have an appropriate number of paragraphs as is shown on WP:LEAD, and should adequately summarize the article.^[?]
• Per Wikipedia:Context and Wikipedia:Manual of Style (dates), months and days of the week generally should not be linked. Years, decades, and centuries can be linked if they provide context for the article.^[?]
• If this article is about a person, please add {{persondata|PLEASE SEE [[WP:PDATA]]!}} along with the required parameters to the article - see Wikipedia:Persondata for more information.^[?]
• Per Wikipedia:Manual of Style (headings), headings generally do not start with articles ('the', 'a(n)'). For example, if there was a section called ==The Biography==, it should be changed to ==Biography==.^[?]
• Per Wikipedia:Manual of Style (headings), headings generally should not repeat the title of the article. For example, if the article was Ferdinand Magellan, instead of using the heading ==Magellan's journey==, use ==Journey==.^[?]
• Per Wikipedia:Manual of Style (headings), avoid using special characters (ex: &+{}[]) in headings.
• Watch for redundancies that make the article too wordy instead of being crisp and concise. (You may wish to try Tony1's redundancy exercises.)
  • Vague terms of size often are unnecessary and redundant - “some”, “a variety/number/majority of”, “several”, “a few”, “many”, “any”, and “all”. For example, “All pigs are pink, so we thought of a number of ways to turn them green.”
• Avoid using contractions like: Don't, Don't.
• As done in WP:FOOTNOTE, footnotes usually are located right after a punctuation mark (as recommended by the CMS, but not mandatory), such that there is no space in between. For example, the sun is larger than the moon [2]. is usually written as the sun is larger than the moon.[2]^[?]
• Please ensure that the article has gone through a thorough copyediting so that it exemplifies some of Wikipedia's best work. See also User:Tony1/How to satisfy Criterion 1a.^[?]

Bluewave 17:36, 16 January 2007 (UTC)Reply

OK I've followed suggestions on dates, heading styles, and persondata. I've added a little more to the intro (which didn't mention that he recorded or toured. The robot doesn't like "It don't bother me" but that's an album title. It also objects to some of the placing of reference numbers, but I think this is only in cases where they have been very carefully placed in the text so that it is clear which fact they are referencing. There are some redundancies and vague terms but I haven't fixed those: I think that might call for a new editor! OK I reckon I've gone about as far as I can go with this! Bluewave 18:14, 16 January 2007 (UTC)Reply

This is my first GA-review. Having been through the GA process a couple of times, I felt compelled to help out. Since the suggestions I offered have been implemented, I believe this to be a good article. Good work by everyone involved. — WiseKwai 19:41, 16 January 2007 (UTC)Reply

Thanks for the help in improving the quality of the article and for the GA rating. Cheers! Bluewave 19:53, 16 January 2007 (UTC)Reply

I remember reading am article (either about Donovan or Led Zeppelin; it's been twenty-plus years) that mentioned Jansch had had trouble with arthritis. Does anyone know more about this? Zephyrad (talk) 06:38, 27 June 2009 (UTC)Reply

Jimmy Page made that comment in an interview around 1976-77 ... Jansch's album AVOCET had evidenced what appeared to be a loss of virtuosity, Page said his playing was "going down or something" and that it "turned out he has arthritis." I've not read anything else about this claim - or where Page got his information from. It was in an issue of GIG magazine. HammerFilmFan (talk) 08:41, 6 October 2011 (UTC)Reply

In the Good Article Reassessment above, there was some discussion about the "influence" section and whether it would be better as continuous prose, rather than a bullet list. The kind of thing might be along the lines of:

Jansch's music, and particularly his acoustic guitar playing, have influenced a range of well-known musicians. His first album (the 1965 Bert Jansch) was much admired, with Jimmy Page saying "At one point, I was absolutely obsessed with Bert Jansch. When I first heard that LP, I couldn't believe it. It was so far ahead of what everyone else was doing. No one in America could touch that." Page would later record a version of Jansch's "Blackwaterside". The same album included Jansch's version of the Davy Graham instrumental "Angie". This was a favourite of Mike Oldfield, who practised acoustic guitar alone as a child, and was then heavily influenced by Jansch's style. The title of the instrumental inspired Oldfield to call his first band (with sister Sally) "The Sallyangie". Jansch's version of Angie was also the inspiration for Paul Simon's recording of the piece on his "Sounds of Silence" album. From the same era, Neil Young is quoted as saying, "As much of a great guitar player as Jimi [Hendrix] was, Bert Jansch is the same thing for acoustic guitar...and my favourite." Nick Drake and Donovan were both admirers of Jansch: both recorded covers of his songs and Donovan went on to dedicate two of his own songs to Jansch; "Bert's Blues" appeared on his "Sunshine Superman" LP, and "House of Jansch" on his fourth album "Mellow Yellow". Other tributes included Gordon Giltrap's album "Janschology" (2000) which has two tunes by Jansch, plus two others that show his influence.

Jansch went on to influence a later generation of guitar players. Bernard Butler states that Noel Gallagher, Jarvis Cocker, and Johnny Marr (as well as himself) have "paid homage to this quiet, unassuming, but hugely revered master". Tsuneo Imahori is known to have been heavily influenced by Jansch.

Before putting a lot of work into this, I'd welcome views from other people. Bluewave (talk) 11:27, 24 February 2010 (UTC)Reply

Bluewave, with all of the time and TLC that you have given to this article I doubt you would ever find anyone objecting to any of your proposed modifications. At one time the style of Wikipedia was more welcoming to cold bullet points. And personally I find bullets easy to follow. But for an article such as this where the style is, for the most part, not cold facts your continuous prose re-structure would be a grand improvement. Anger22 (Talk 2 22) 20:21, 26 February 2010 (UTC)Reply

Thanks for that :-) It's good to know that someone takes an interest and is appreciative of my efforts. I'll leave this a few days more to see if anyone else comments, then tidy up the prose and add it unless someone thinks it's a bad idea, Bluewave (talk) 13:17, 27 February 2010 (UTC)Reply

Someone has added a mention of his association with Fylde guitars (but no cite). I've found a reference to him playing Fylde guitars, but is there any more significant association? Also, there was mention specifically of the Falstaff model. This model is closely associated with Davy Graham but I can't find any specific mention of Jansch playing the Falstaff. For the time being I've toned down the statement to the citeable facts (NB the article is currently undergoing Good Article reassessment so I'm probably being ultra-cautious about sourcing information). Please add more information if it is supported from sources. Bluewave (talk) 12:24, 1 March 2010 (UTC)Reply

There are a few uncited statements in the article. Although they are not terribly contentious, they would be sufficient for the article to lose its GA status (see discussion above). I propose taking them out of the article and parking them here until someone can come up with citations.

• "The comarison of Jansch with Dylan was, however, was misleading, in that Jansch's best work has always been fundamentally instrument-driven unlike Dylan's which is primarily lyric-based."
• "Although Pentangle were regarded as a folk music group, they played many of their own compositions and Jansch undertook much of the writing."

Bluewave (talk) 19:57, 2 March 2010 (UTC)Reply

Following the recommendation that the intro be improved, better to summarise the article, I have had a first go at doing so.

Herbert Jansch (born 3 November 1943), known as Bert Jansch, is a Scottish folk musician and founding member of the band Pentangle. He was born in Glasgow and and came to prominence in London in the 1960s, particularly as an innovative and accomplished acoustic guitarist, but also as a singer and songwriter. He has recorded at least 25 albums and has toured extensively starting in the 1960s and continuing into the 21st century.

Jansch was a leading figure in the British folk music revival of the 1960s, touring folk clubs and recording several solo albums, as well as collaborating with other musicians such as John Renbourn and Anne Briggs. In 1968, he joined the band Pentangle, touring and recording with them until their break-up in 1972. He then took a few years' break from music, returning in the late 1970s to work on a series of projects with other musicians. He joined a reformed Pentangle in the early 1980s and remained with them as they evolved through various changes of personnel until 1995. Since then, Jansch has continued to work as a solo artist.

His work has influenced such artists as Paul Simon, Johnny Marr, Bernard Butler, Jimmy Page, Nick Drake, Graham Coxon, Donovan and Neil Young. He has received two Lifetime Achievement Awards at the BBC Folk Awards: one, in 2001, for his solo achievements and the other, in 2007, as a member of Pentangle.

All comments welcome. Bluewave (talk) 12:12, 11 March 2011 (UTC)Reply

Very good. Put your changes directly on the article, they are an improvement, and people can build on what you have done. Be WP:Bold. We need editors who are willing and able to contribute. SilkTork *^YES! 13:05, 11 March 2011 (UTC)Reply

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I check pages listed in Category:Pages with incorrect ref formatting to try to fix reference errors. One of the things I do is look for content for orphaned references in wikilinked articles. I have found content for some of Bert Jansch's orphans, the problem is that I found more than one version. I can't determine which (if any) is correct for this article, so I am asking for a sentient editor to look it over and copy the correct ref content into this article.

Reference named "bio":

• From Heather Jansch: "Heather Jansch - Profile". Heatherjansch.com. Retrieved 2013-10-29.
• From Mazzy Star: "The Official Website of Hope Sandoval". HopeSandoval.com. Retrieved 2010-05-01.

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