Talk:Aoidos

This text has come from Rhapsode, where it was doubtrfully relevant. My aim is to shape it into an article here. Andrew Dalby 14:34, 5 July 2006 (UTC)Reply

at the end this article unabashedly denies Homer's authorship of the Iliad and Odyssey, when that is mere conjecture at this point. The Jackal God 15:38, 11 February 2007 (UTC)Reply

If you're referring to the section "Aoidoi and the creation of the Iliad and Odyssey", there are 4 citations given there, which is copious documentation by WP standards. More citations could be given, of course, since there's a vast literature on what used to be called the "Homeric Question". There are plenty of scholars who don't think that the epics had an author at all, and many would agree with Martin West when he says "that 'Homer' was not the name of a historical poet, but a fictitious or constructed name" (Classical Quarterly 49 (1999) p. 364). From my perspective, saying that Homer is the author of the epics is just as much a conjecture as saying he's not. --Akhilleus (talk) 16:35, 11 February 2007 (UTC)Reply

All it says, to be precise, is that no classical sources (except the unconvincing pseudo-Herodotus) connect the writing down of the epics with Homer. So far as I know, that's true. One could indeed add that this doesn't prevent many modern scholars connecting said writing down with Homer! Indeed, many do. No reason not to cite them. But perhaps the "Homer" article would be a better place for that? I'm not sure. Andrew Dalby 16:52, 11 February 2007 (UTC)Reply

no classical "written" sources. ask anyone in Pericles who wrote the Iliad or Odyssey and they'd look at you funny. but that's not my point, it can't definitively be said "yea" or "nay" yet this article at the ends offers a definitive answer to an open academic debate. to repeat, both sides are conjecture, but that final paragraph does not present itself as conjecture or incomplete. The Jackal God 22:14, 11 February 2007 (UTC)Reply

Yes, it's interesting how an ancient Greek would answer the straight question "who wrote the Iliad or Odyssey"? Ancient Greek writers are certain, nearly all of them, that Homer "sang" those poems. If they take on the question of writing at all, they always seem to say that writing was not available to Homer or in Homer's time: the poems got into writing one generation or several generations later. They might "look at you funny"; they might think it an odd question to worry about. But they won't say that Homer "wrote". Andrew Dalby 23:17, 11 February 2007 (UTC)Reply

of course, and the relevance here pertains to what question you ask: if you ask who made, who authored, who composed those works vs who wrote it. and the fact they know one but not the other lends weight to the position which has traditionally been held. however, if you wish to floor the other position, it is fine to do so, but not in such a manner redefining self-satisfying parameters. —The preceding unsigned comment was added by The Jackal God (talk • contribs).

That's quite true. But I took the question that you proposed! I say that not to be argumentative, just as a reminder that all these words, "make, author, compose, recite, write", have meanings that may be difficult to pin down in an oral-written context of 2700 years ago that we are struggling to reconstruct.

I wonder if perhaps the heading of the last section of the article, rather than the text of it, is causing the problem.

In writing this bit of the article, as anyone can easily see, I took the view (in which I think I follow Milman Parry, Albert Lord and various other estimable persons) that the creation of such a poem cannot be separated from its performance and recording: they are the same event. But others, I know, don't accept this. Their views could be cited -- please go right ahead and do it -- the text could be changed if necessary, and in any case the heading of this section could be changed, for example, altering "creation" to "recording" or "writing". Would that improve it, do you think? Andrew Dalby 13:21, 12 February 2007 (UTC)Reply

"the poet or aoidos who wrote or dictated them for writing has to be considered their creator." remove or qualify that (some believe) and adjust the rest accordingly. The Jackal God 13:35, 12 February 2007 (UTC)Reply

"Some believe" (though perfectly true) would qualify as what Wikipedia calls "weasel words". Better still would be to cite someone who doesn't believe it. Andrew Dalby 14:02, 12 February 2007 (UTC)Reply

yes, it could be an instance of weasel words, unless of course that opinion is the minority and obscure view of the matter. either way, it is best to get a source verifying the other position. The Jackal God 18:04, 12 February 2007 (UTC)Reply

Here is my suggestion for revising the article, thus that it does not attempt to decide the Homeric Question, but rather provide a reference to it, while retaining an explanation of the role of the aoidoi in the formation of those epic works.

"== Aoidoi and the creation of the Iliad and Odyssey ==

It has been shown from comparative study of orality that the Iliad and Odyssey (as well as the works of Hesiod) come from a tradition of oral epics.^[1] In oral narrative traditions there is no exact transmission of texts; rather, stories are transmitted from one generation to another by bards, who make use of formulas to aid in remembering vast numbers of lines. These poets were bearers of the early Greek oral epic tradition, but little is known of them. Whenever the writing took place (dates between 750 and 600 BC are most often proposed), any contemporary poets and writers who may have known of it did not notice the event or name the poet(s).^[2] According to classical Greek sources, Homer lived long before the two poems were written down.

The Homeric Question is the debate over the existence of the historical Homer and the authorship of the Iliad and Odyssey." The Jackal God 00:16, 16 February 2007 (UTC)Reply

That looks excellent to me. Thank you for consulting before inserting it: yes, I think you should insert it -- unless someone else has a different opinion? Andrew Dalby 12:34, 16 February 2007 (UTC)Reply

The only problem is that the references to Lord and Lefkowitz have been left out. --Akhilleus (talk) 16:59, 16 February 2007 (UTC)Reply

the references were left out b/c that info isn't relative here. The Jackal God 00:58, 17 February 2007 (UTC)Reply

In the article as it stands now, the reference to Lefkowitz (and the Life of Homer) goes with the sentence "According to classical Greek sources, Homer lived long before the two poems were written down"--which is retained verbatim in your paragraph. As for the refs to Lord, we want them, because both Lord and Parry were instrumental in forming modern understanding of oral epic. It would be find to put the Lord refs in the same footnote as the Parry ref, I think. I'll go ahead and do that, actually. --Akhilleus (talk) 03:38, 17 February 2007 (UTC)Reply