Talk:African-American Jews

04:16, 8 October 2006 (UTC)68.253.254.196Google for Black Jews, this article seems to be a pride article with a long list. Very questionable, and would consider deleting. I added some information about the real Black Jews (the religious movement) which needs to be expanded, but the list came before and it's not clear whether they are mainstream Jews, Jews by association (hereditary but many are not practicing and do not identify as Jewish), or part of the Black Jews movement.

This is not a disambig - it's an article. I will remove the {{disambig}} if there are no objections.--Commander Keane 16:54, 2 December 2005 (UTC)Reply

The Black Hebrews section should really be merged with the Black Hebrews article, and mentioned here only in passing, as they are far from the only group of Black Jews, claimed or recognized as such. Tomer^TALK 04:39, 4 December 2005 (UTC)Reply

Why is this part of African American topics? Isn't this first and formost a black topic. There's always this will of dividing black people into small groups. Doesn't this concern the rest of the "black world", in the Caribbean, Brazil and Africa. There's a few jews in Africa as well, hence this shouldn't be a stricly African American topic.

As "black" is an adjective, I would say this is first and foremost a Jewish topic, which is why I made the recommendation I made in the section ("merge") above. Tomer^talk 02:30, 15 December 2005 (UTC)Reply

First, "black jews" are any Jew that happens to be black.

The "Black Hebrews" are specific group of people.

No merge.

^talk 02:30, 15 December 2005 (UTC)Reply

Black Jews / List of Black Jews look a lot like one another right now. There should be one page that is a Template:disambig for "Black Jews" and one page that is an actual list for "List of Black Jews," with a Template:dablink at the top. Someone mind doing the cutting, pasting, comparing, and alphabetizing? —  <TALKJNDRLINETALK>    

Judaism is matriarchal. You can only be a Jew via the female line if not converted, and those listed as Jews via their fathers cannot be called Jews. Dainamo 12:25, 25 July 2006 (UTC)Reply

How do you know that modern Jews are even related to ancient Hebrews? Today, there are no people Hebrew by blood. Most to all are European converts. Judaism now, is a practice, not a race.

--Vehgah 02:08, 1 August 2006 (UTC)Reply

I don't think you know much about Jews. For instance, cohanim from India to Ethiopia to Miami have specific genes in common. This is because the only way to be a cohen is to be descended from one. It is true that a good chunk of the Ashkenazi Jewish population is from European conversion (much less than half, though), but I don't really see how that pertains to the subject of Black Jews. anon

It doesn't pertain to the article, just the list of so-called "black jews". For clarity I am describing what Judaism defines as a Jew. Unless convereted you are not a Jew if your mother was not one I'm not sure of the correct term, but Afro-Hebrew sounds good but unlikely. I rather suspect it would be more correct to stick to the national origins of the Jewish dexcent e.g. Polish, Israeli etc. Dainamo 17:30, 6 August 2006 (UTC)Reply

there are 2 lists of black jews. the one in this article and the one that this article refers to. there differ. can someone fix this? and shouldn't we just have one list, so that we do not have to update both lists all of the time?

Thoughts???????????????

Tx.

--Epeefleche 22:31, 29 August 2006 (UTC)Reply

I added a heading of "Types" over the "Mainstream Judaism / Beta Israel" and "" sections. I don't think "Types" is the best choice, but the two sections needed something to contain them (as they weren't quite appropriate to upgrade to level 2 heads). Feel free to change it. EVula 17:26, 6 September 2006 (UTC)Reply

It seems like there is a problem with the truth about Jacob and Esau(Edom). What is the true race or should I say color of the Hebrews during the time of Moses and the Egyptian's Pharoah mix up. The holy bible isn't blasphemous about the truth about Israel and God's chosen people. That's why white christians try to keep the world and the black american race out of the old testament studies by verbally blaspheming the lord's commandments. I know who you are Esau(Edom), and Jesus Knows too. Revalation 2:9

Peace be unto all nations in Jesus name one of the "lost tribes of JUDAH"

Who is regina smith? Google only turns up one hit (wikipedia) for "Rabbi regina smith." Though there are several for rabbi "regina smith," none seem to indicate a notable black jew. Anyone have any sources for this? Avraham 05:17, 30 October 2006 (UTC)Reply

Why does this page not mention the Lemba? 83.67.215.251 18:42, 30 April 2007 (UTC)Reply

An anonymous editor dumped material from Zimbabwe’s “Black Jews” and The Story of the Lemba People into this article today. Since the material was copied directly from those sources, I had to delete it.

If anybody has any questions, please read WP:COPYVIO and post any further questions here. Thanks. — Malik Shabazz (Talk | contribs) 18:22, 23 May 2007 (UTC)Reply

"black jews are jews who are black"

thank you, captain obvious, did you also know that black jews are blacks who are jews? no? well now you do, and i guess you should add that as the second statement.....please consider revising that first statement — Preceding unsigned comment added by 66.146.150.24 (talk) 20:33, May 23, 2007

Done. — Malik Shabazz (Talk | contribs) 02:13, 24 May 2007 (UTC)Reply

Given the current length of the list of Black Jews, I think it would be appropriate to merge the content of the list into this article under a section titled "Notable Black Jews" or the like. Any thoughts? -- Black Falcon ^(Talk) 07:15, 4 July 2007 (UTC)Reply

• support considering the size of the list. Also would be consistent with Black Muslims--Sefringle^Talk 06:47, 8 July 2007 (UTC)Reply
  •   Done. Cheers, Black Falcon ^(Talk) 07:01, 8 July 2007 (UTC)Reply

Jewish African Americans is similar to List of Black Jews, which was merged into this article recently. I propose that Jewish African Americans be merged in as well. — Malik Shabazz (Talk | contribs) 19:09, 10 July 2007 (UTC)Reply

• I support the proposed merge. The list of Jewish African Americans consists of only 4 members, one of whom is already noted in this article. I see no reason why nationality (American) can't simply be noted after the name (e.g., "Sammy Davis, Jr. (1925–1990), American dancer and singer"). -- Black Falcon ^(Talk) 19:15, 10 July 2007 (UTC)Reply
  • I support this as well, but please ensure that each insertion is properly sourced. Jayjg ^(talk) 19:18, 10 July 2007 (UTC)Reply
    • Will do. — Malik Shabazz (Talk | contribs) 19:44, 10 July 2007 (UTC)Reply

Support This definitely should be merged, no use having 2 pages for the same thing. Tyler Warren 04:42, 15 September 2007 (UTC)Reply

I appreciate the consistency with Islam in the African Diaspora, but some of the "Black Jews" in the article aren't of African descent. Cochin Jews in southern India evidently are referred to as "Black Jews", but the descendants of more recent Jewish immigrants to that part of India (Paradesi Jews) are called "White Jews". I suppose we can just take them out of this article; they do have articles of their own. — Malik Shabazz (Talk | contribs) 05:20, 22 September 2007 (UTC)Reply

Prehaps we should move them to Paradesi Jews or Cochin Jews, or whatever article best describes them then. Yahel Guhan 00:30, 24 September 2007 (UTC)Reply

Since there can be a difference between people of Jewish heritage and those who practice Judaism, and since this article includes Black Hebrews who consider themselves Jews but are not of Jewish heritage nor do they practice normative Judaism, would anybody object to renaming this article "Jews and Judaism in the African diaspora" or "Judaism and Jews in the African diaspora"? — Malik Shabazz (Talk | contribs) 00:29, 3 October 2007 (UTC)Reply

I'm finding the discontinuity between the topic and the article to be fairly jarring. This covers far more groups than just African ones and doesn't go into any serious detail on what its topic implies. What I see is a set of mutually exclusive definitions of the term Black Jew, and without a very severe restructuring involving multiple articles maybe it should be called that again? -- Strangelv 11:14, 6 October 2007 (UTC)Reply

You're right. Until very recently, this article was titled "Black Jews". The content hasn't been updated to reflect the new title and focus. — Malik Shabazz (Talk | contribs) 05:27, 7 October 2007 (UTC)Reply

slaves belonging to jews would have followed judaism? 61.95.13.82 15:00, 18 October 2007 (UTC)Reply

In the American South, no. In the former Jewish colony in Suriname, I think yes, sort of.--Pharos 23:42, 28 October 2007 (UTC)Reply

A year ago we merged that list, which consisted of 9 names, into this article. The list now includes 29 people, with another 15 or so who are unsourced and commented out. I think we should consider moving the list back into its own article. — Malik Shabazz (talk · contribs) 22:09, 24 June 2008 (UTC)Reply

In the absence of any objections, I moved the content to List of Jews in the African diaspora. — Malik Shabazz (talk · contribs) 05:55, 4 July 2008 (UTC)Reply

I am going add info to the section from http://www.adl.org/presrele/IslME_62/2659_62.asp --Java7837 (talk) 22:12, 2 April 2009 (UTC)Reply

Who is Harry Wall and what makes him a WP:RS concerning Beta Israel? — Malik Shabazz (talk · contribs) 22:14, 2 April 2009 (UTC)Reply

It's from the ADL, a reliable website --Java7837 (talk) 23:00, 2 April 2009 (UTC)Reply

I see that it was already being used in the article concerning the requirement that men of Beta Israel undergo a second circumcision. — Malik Shabazz (talk · contribs) 23:03, 2 April 2009 (UTC)Reply

On a related subject, please don't replace the results of a 1999 study commissioned by the Ministry of Immigrant Absorption [1] with a 1993 study of a single village [2]. It seems obvious to me that the national statistics are more notable than those of a single village, although we can mention both if you'd like. — Malik Shabazz (talk · contribs) 23:10, 2 April 2009 (UTC)Reply

I added "Cochin Jews, including the Black Jews of Malabar" to See Also and it was reverted AGF. A previous version of this article used to be called Black Jews, if I read the history correctly, and that search term redirects here. I fully understand that Cochin Jews are not African, which is why I didn't try to insert the link into the main body of the article. But surely it is of assistance to our readers to point them towards the Black Jews of Malabar? Isn't that exactly what See Also is for? BrainyBabe (talk) 13:12, 11 December 2011 (UTC)Reply

Actually, that's what a hatnote is for.   You raise a good point. I had forgotten that Black Jews redirects here. Thank you. — Malik Shabazz ^Talk/_Stalk 21:03, 11 December 2011 (UTC)Reply

I'm afraid this article is pretty much a pointless collection of loosely related (or completely unrelated) issues. From translating the Russian version - it strictly relates to African Americans who have embraced a religion similar to Judaism over the course of the 20th century (most notable are "Black Hebrew Israelites of Jerusalem"), though are not recognized as Jews by the main Jewish groups. The English title is poorly connected to the Russian one and even more problematic - not related to the content, which is a weird mix of descriptions for ethnic Jews (North African) groups of mixed Jewish ancestry or recognized as part of the Jewish panethnicity (Ethiopian Jews, Black Jews of Malabar) groups of possible mixed Jewish ancestry in Africa (Lembas) and African Americans who have recently embraced a form of Judaism (Black Hebrew Israelites, Alliance of Black Jews and related groups).Greyshark09 (talk) 20:09, 25 July 2013 (UTC)Reply

Also this article might greatly overlap African Jews in its current title.Greyshark09 (talk) 20:12, 25 July 2013 (UTC)Reply

After checking through the topic it seems the article was and should be a disambig page. I would like to ask for other opinions before i begin disintegration process for this page (merging info into relevant articles, while keeping only the disambig basic info).Greyshark09 (talk) 22:20, 14 August 2013 (UTC)Reply

What should it disambiguate? — Malik Shabazz ^Talk/_Stalk 02:15, 15 August 2013 (UTC)Reply

"Black Jews" disambiguation should refer to either Black Jews of Malabar (Cochin), Beta Israel, Black Hebrew Israelites and perhaps Lemba. The current title "history of the Jews in the African diaspora" is certainly referring to African Jews and not the chaotic content of this article, so Black Jews should be disambig page, while this one to be redirected to "African Jews".Greyshark09 (talk) 05:28, 15 August 2013 (UTC)Reply

The fact that you think the current title refers to African Jews makes me wonder whether you understand the word "diaspora". — Malik Shabazz ^Talk/_Stalk 01:48, 16 August 2013 (UTC)Reply

Jews of Africa are a part of Jewish diaspora; maybe the problem with the current title is that it is not clear whether this refers to "diaspora of Africans" (African indigenous peoples, for whom reference as Jews is largely irrelevant - maybe "Adoption of Judaism among African diaspora" may be clearer, but that clearly overlaps Hebrew Israelites) and "Jewish diaspora in Africa" (diaspora Jews who lived/live in Africa).Greyshark09 (talk) 07:17, 18 August 2013 (UTC)Reply

@Malik Shabazz: Following the edits at List of Jews in the African diaspora, i get to the same problem i'd discussed here with you, but got no answer - what is this article about? is it about mixed Jewish-African ancestry people (many of whom are not considered Jewish)? About people who are somehow identified with Judaism (Black Hebrew Israelites)? About Jewish-affiliated communities in Africa, evolving trough conversion or mixture like Beta Israel and Lemba? Let's agree on content and title via WP:GF, because currently the articles are a complete mess which is highly confusing.Greyshark09 (talk) 15:31, 25 September 2013 (UTC)Reply

I'm sorry for not replying. I didn't notice your message here.

This article, like the list, is about Jews in the African diaspora. — Malik Shabazz ^Talk/_Stalk 01:20, 27 September 2013 (UTC)Reply

Black Hebrew Israelites are generally not defined as Jews; Maghrebi Jews are not a part of African diaspora (generally West and Central African origins); Ethiopian Jews as well are not generally classified as African diaspora (generally West and Central African origins). It seems that this page is a collection of unrelated topics with no academic reference [3]. At best we can describe the mixed Jewish-African people like Lenny Kravitz for instance, but he is either not considered Jewish, so the title is a problem; the fact that Black Jews redirects here makes it even more confusing, because it may also refer to Black Jews of Malabar (per hatnote). I think that "Black Jews" should be made a disambig page, but this strange unsourced topic page should be deleted. Do you object?Greyshark09 (talk) 14:42, 27 September 2013 (UTC)Reply

The article cites as further reading four books about Jews in the African diaspora that Google seems to have missed (I'm not counting the memoirs). If you feel the article should be deleted, use AfD. — Malik Shabazz ^Talk/_Stalk 01:13, 28 September 2013 (UTC)Reply

I shall try to find some source for the definition of "Jews in the African diaspora" (if there is such a definition at all) and if not - i will AfD this article (i will notify you).Greyshark09 (dibra) 13:21, 29 September 2013 (UTC)Reply

• Comment - i'm removing Black Hebrew Israelites from here, since they are clearly do not belong to even broadly defined Jewish identity.GreyShark (dibra) 16:58, 30 October 2013 (UTC)Reply

@Malik Shabazz: you clearly interrupted in the middle of my edit (North America section). I tried to edit it before reinserting. Not the best way, but not a reason for warning me. Assume WP:GF - you know i'm not new here.GreyShark (dibra) 17:05, 30 October 2013 (UTC)Reply

• Comment - i moved section on Beta Israel museum to the Beta Israel article - seems much more relevant there, since Ethiopian Jews are not a typical case of African diaspora.GreyShark (dibra) 17:10, 30 October 2013 (UTC)Reply

Black Jews redirects here, but this article doesn't add any clearance on who are black Jews, specifically referring to black Jews of Malabar. I think black Jews should be a proper disambiguation page to Malabar Jews, Ethiopian Jews, Black Hebrew Israelites and people with mixed Jewish-African ancestry. Any opposition to expand the disambig page?GreyShark (dibra) 18:13, 31 March 2014 (UTC)   Done - with no objection after 4 months.GreyShark (dibra) 10:49, 10 August 2014 (UTC)Reply

I think the best title for this page would be Jewish African-Americans, or something of that sort. Any opinions before i make a proposal?GreyShark (dibra) 18:14, 31 March 2014 (UTC)Reply

In order to make some clarity in this topic it seems that we have to differentiate two subjects:

1. Black Hebrews (and associated movements) - claim Israelite descent by legends and practice a hybrid religion with Jewish, Christian and Afro-American cultural elements.

2. Jewish African-Americans / African-American Jews - African-Americans of partial Jewish ancestry (mixed origins) or African-American converts to Judaism in accordance with common practice (orthodox and perhaps even conservative & reformist), who self-identify as Jews; this relates to articles History of the Jews in the African diaspora, List of Jews in the African diaspora, Alliance of Black Jews, Category:Jews in the African diaspora, Category:African-American Jews.

I think of first merging the cats Category:Jews in the African diaspora and Category:African-American Jews into one cat. Opinions?GreyShark (dibra) 17:08, 31 March 2015 (UTC)Reply

  Done Jewish African-Americans.GreyShark (dibra) 22:23, 14 December 2015 (UTC)Reply

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Black Jews in New York City was a mess of BHI content. With that removed, there’s not much there that wouldn’t be better served being moved into this article, I think, as it appears insufficiently notable on its own (if it is, sorry for my misunderstanding, I’m just going by what’s there after a pruning). Warrenᚋᚐᚊᚔ 19:48, 14 October 2024 (UTC)Reply

• Agreed. I would also merge the Notable Black Jews from New York City section into List of African-American Jews.  Ploni^💬  19:52, 14 October 2024 (UTC)Reply

  Last I read it, some of that section included persons who are BHI or who had BHI parents, and not Jews. ꧁Zanahary꧂ 23:36, 14 October 2024 (UTC)Reply

  I axed every BHI entry from the list, if there are more we should get rid of those. Warrenᚋᚐᚊᚔ 02:03, 15 October 2024 (UTC)Reply

  @Warrenmck There were two separate lists for Black Jews and BHIs. Are you questioning the Jewishness of the Black Jews currently listed? Please don't turn this into an anti-Black witch hunt. Bohemian Baltimore (talk) 12:19, 18 October 2024 (UTC)Reply

  You need to read WP:AGF and WP:ASPERSIONS, this is a seriously inappropriate reply. I was just trying to remove BHI content, nothing else. If I missed, you can (and did) revert it. Don’t accuse editors, though. Warrenᚋᚐᚊᚔ 13:16, 18 October 2024 (UTC)Reply

  I'll support the merges per Warren and Ploni and the cuts per Zanahary. Andre🚐 07:49, 15 October 2024 (UTC)Reply

• Support merge, shouldn't be a BHI coatrack. Horse Eye's Back (talk) 16:41, 15 October 2024 (UTC)Reply

  @Horse Eye's Back Even without the BHI content, there's still a Black Jewish community in NYC and there are sources testifying to that community's existence. Bohemian Baltimore (talk) 13:12, 18 October 2024 (UTC)Reply

  The Black Jewish community in NYC doesn't appear to be independently notable. Nobody is saying that they don't exist but existing is not the bar for an article. Horse Eye's Back (talk) 16:04, 18 October 2024 (UTC)Reply

  Merging isn’t proposing we memory hole the content of Black Jews in New York City, it’s proposing we move that content into this page and still discuss it. Warrenᚋᚐᚊᚔ 16:19, 18 October 2024 (UTC)Reply

• Oppose, and I'm disturbed by the overt anti-Black racism on display here. I find it interesting that the focus on the information about BHIs is being used to legitimize erasing the whole article. Which makes me conclude that this isn't really about BHIs, but about erasing Black Jews and censoring content about them. The article as it existed made abundantly clear that most BHIs are not recognized as Jews by Jews, but that apparently isn't good enough for the pearl-clutching editors who scrubbed all of the BHI info. Even the fact that there were separate lists for Black Jews and BHIs wasn't good enough. Whether anymore likes it or not, BHIs *do* pertain to the subject of Black Jews in New York City, due to their (generally false, imo) identification as Jewish, due to their interactions with Black Jews, and due to the fact that there is overlap between BHIs and Black Jews whether anyone likes it or not. There are Black Jews who converted Reform, Orthodox, Conservative, etc. who come from BHI backgrounds and may still identify as being BHIs in addition to identifying as Jews. There are Black Jews who work for BHI institutions and BHIs that work for Jewish institutions. Do you like that? Do I like that? Doesn't matter. Those people exist, one way or the other and they should be noted. Bohemian Baltimore (talk) 12:17, 18 October 2024 (UTC)Reply

  pearl-clutching editors who scrubbed all of the BHI info

  This article is about black Jews in New York. I’d remove a section on black Mormons in New York from this article as well, it doesn’t mean I harbour any ill will towards them Warrenᚋᚐᚊᚔ 15:06, 18 October 2024 (UTC)Reply

  But that's not the extent of what you have proposed. You have proposed deleting the article entirely. Besides, why not propose a separate article on BHIs in NYC? Bohemian Baltimore (talk) 16:04, 18 October 2024 (UTC)Reply

  No, I have proposed merging it, which is different than deleting it. Warrenᚋᚐᚊᚔ 16:20, 18 October 2024 (UTC)Reply

  @Warrenmck It's incredibly frustrating to me that there are thousands of flimsy articles on Wikipedia about obscure rabbis from 17th-century Lithuania, based on one or maybe two sources, and I never see those articles nominated for merging or deletion. But when it comes to Black history, even with multiple sources, it's never enough. Bohemian Baltimore (talk) 23:52, 20 October 2024 (UTC)Reply

  Nobody is advocating removing the content entirely, simply reallocating it to a different article which more broadly covers the topic since the “in New York City” part struggles with GNG. That said, I’m definitely sympathetic to your perspective here, just keep in mind that this article was basically a BHI coatrack. You coulx see if you can find some sources that’d distinguish the article from the article it’s proposed to be merged into and see if you can make it stronger against WP:GNG? It’s not like it’s a done deal and if you believe this merger isn’t appropriate by all means feel free to make that case.

  I can tell you coming in hot accusing people isn’t helping anything though. Warrenᚋᚐᚊᚔ 00:01, 21 October 2024 (UTC)Reply

  It’s also worth remembering that the more niche an article is, the less people will read it. Information on black Jews in New York City will be more widely read in African-American Jews than it would as a freestanding article, so concerns about erasure don’t necessarily ring true considering the end result would likely be it’s read even more. Warrenᚋᚐᚊᚔ 07:40, 21 October 2024 (UTC)Reply

• Comment @User:Warrenmck I am shocked that you removed information from Shais Rishon, a Black Orthodox Jew. You also removed a link to The Color of Water, written by a Black Ashkenazi Jew. Are you denying the Jewishness of Rishon and McBride? I hope these are mistakes on your part and not overt attacks on Black Jews. Bohemian Baltimore (talk) 12:30, 18 October 2024 (UTC)Reply

  They’re mistakes, absolutely. You’re way out of line accusing editors of racism for their edits. Warrenᚋᚐᚊᚔ 13:17, 18 October 2024 (UTC)Reply