Category talk:Historical images of Zeitz

Hello Adamant1, please don't delete this subcategory, it describes historical pictures of the city. Or is there a realistic reason why this would be necessary? Cookroach (talk) 18:48, 7 September 2024 (UTC)[reply]

@Cookroach: Please read Commons:Categories for discussion/2019/09/Category:Historical images. I don't feel like rehashing it, but most (if not all) of these "historical images" categories are ambiguous and redundant. It's much better just to organize the images by subject or date. But there's absolutely no difference what-so-ever between "history of" and "historical images" except for the added word "images" to the later, which totally is redundant because 99% of the media on here is images. BTW, there's also many different versions of this. For instance "old images", "historic images", "historic photographs", "historical photograph", "old photographs" Etc. Etc. add nauseum. We don't 50 different category systems for images that can and should be categorized based on the date or subject. --Adamant1 (talk) 21:55, 7 September 2024 (UTC)[reply]

@Adamant1: Thank you for pointing out this discussion, I was not aware of it. I have read it carefully, but I cannot see any general consensus in favour of abolishing the categories "Historical images of town/country..." and it is not a general rule, it is just a discussion that it can be done. For me, I see a clear difference between the categories "History of town/country" and "Historical images of ...", the images in the category "History of ..." describe the history of the town or country itself, i.e. historical documents, coats of arms, maps and the like. In contrast, the category "Historical images of ..." contains images that have a direct historical reference to places that so or no longer exist. Sorry to disagree with you! You could also have left a short note on the discussion page before moving the pictures and reorganising them. I'm not saying, that I am in favour of the chosen solution and I'm open to other solutions also. I don't think the option you've chosen of moving the images back to the "History of..." category is a good one! I only created the category based on the usual usage in Germany. I would therefore ask you to stop moving the images for German objects (i.e. categories) for the time being. We will discuss this with members of the User Group at the WikiCon 2024 next month and I will inform you about the result, thank you for your understanding. I will post a discussion on the relevant page tomorrow and point out the controversy. best regards--Cookroach (talk) 22:42, 7 September 2024 (UTC)[reply]

I cannot see any general consensus in favour of abolishing the categories "Historical images of town/country..." it is just a discussion that it can be done. @Cookroach: Per the closing comment "Phase out and eventually delete: The overall consensus is that for most purposes, "historical" is not a useful means of sorting for several reasons." What about that makes you think there's no consensus for getting rid of the categories or that's not a general rule? The CfD was had to do with Category:Historical images. So the out inherently relates to the child categories.

the images in the category "History of ..." describe the history of the town or country itself, i.e. historical documents, coats of arms, maps and the like. In contrast, the category "Historical images of ..." You can say that, but no one uses the categories that way and there's nothing inherent to "history of" or "historical images of" that confines them to certain subjects. Maybe that's how you use the categories but the fact is that both categories are used as dumps for anything someone thinks has to do with history at the time.

I would therefore ask you to stop moving the images for German objects (i.e. categories) for the time being...We will discuss this with members of the...I will inform you about the result. I rather not and prefer it if you didn't do that. There's this thing called "the universality principle." If the "historical images" categories are gotten rid for every other country then it go against that for Germany to have a special exception. You can't just create your own way of doing things against the consensus or despite how categories are for other countries just because a couple of people in your little group agree with you about it. That's not how this works. So I'm going to continue doing it. Take it up on the village pump if you disagree. But the consensus from the CfD is pretty clear that there is a consensus to ""Phase out and eventually delete" the categories. Be my guest and put the images in one's "by year" or "by subject" if you think that's a better option. But it's a side thing to the whole "phasing out the categories" bit of the CfD and the categories should still be deleted regardless. --Adamant1 (talk) 23:00, 7 September 2024 (UTC)[reply]

@Adamant1: The discussion seems to have already been concluded in June 2023, what need is there to do this now? Is there a timeline to follow? Only a few users were involved in the discussion and it does not contain an official opinion! What speaks against asking hundreds of users who have uploaded their pictures with a lot of effort and work (see category)! Please keep in mind that this question is not just about a few categories, but about hundreds or thousands and their contents in many countries. How can you accuse me of wanting a special solution? Of course I would like a generally valid version, but you can't just cite a simple discussion group as a reference for such a global change. But I am not your opponent, I just think you are acting against the community. My request to wait is legitimate and I see no explicit need to make your changes now. Therefore again my explicit request to not proceed with your changes for the time being until the discussion is finished. It cannot be that you, as a representative of only a few users, want to decide over the majority. As already written, I will initiate a new discussion, so you cannot simply say that you ignore my opinion. Of course I can't forbid you from doing what you do want, but I promise you that the discussion will be continued elsewhere. So let's talk about it sensibly in a suitable place.--Cookroach (talk) 23:53, 7 September 2024 (UTC)[reply]

The discussion seems to have already been concluded in June 2023, what need is there to do this now? Is there a timeline to follow? The CfD was opened 2019 and it's been closed for more then a year. No there isn't a timeline to follow, but 5 years of it being out there is plenty of time to start phasing out the categories. Come on Cookroach. You can't claim this is being done quickly when it's been out there 5 years. That's more then long enough for people to comment and/or get with the program.

Only a few users were involved in the discussion and it does not contain an official opinion! Yeah it actually does. The outcomes of CfDs represent the opinions of the community at large. It's not on me or anyone else that there was low turnout for that particular CfD. The reasonable explanation for the low turnout is that most people probably don't care about it either way. That's certainly been my experience. I've been working on this for at least a couple of weeks for countries all over the world and there's only been like 3 people who had an issue with and 2 of them were fine with getting rid of the categories after I told them about the CfD. Just because you didn't participate in the CfD and have a problem with it doesn't mean other people do or that the outcome isn't valid. I did say your free to discuss it on the Village Pump. Be my guest and do that. I'm not going to stop what I'm doing just because a single user isn't willing to get with the program or wants to act like this is being rushed when it isn't though.

As already written, I will initiate a new discussion, so you cannot simply say that you ignore my opinion. In no way am I ignoring your opinion. What I'm saying is that you can't create a local consensus to keep "historical images" categories based on a conversation with a few people in Germany against the broader one that the categories should be phased out. Sorry, but that's just a fact. I don't have an issue with you discussing with other German's how to better categorize the images instead of using "historical images" categories though. But that's orthogonal to the broader consensus of phasing them out and they aren't mutually exclusive. You and your friends can both decided to put the images in "by subject" or "by year" categories and I can get rid of the "historical images" categories in the meantime. They have absolutely nothing to do with each other what-so-ever. Really, you could have just done that instead of wasting both our time reverting me and trying to force a discussion about it. --Adamant1 (talk) 00:36, 8 September 2024 (UTC)[reply]

@Adamant1: So I'm wasting their time, very good! You have a sharp tongue and I will not continue to discuss with you on this basis. In my opinion, you are doing the wrong thing and the future will prove that. You have already disregarded the guidelines for deleting a category after a CFD. I will complain about you in an appropriate place and find other means to postpone your actions until clarification. What did I ask you to wait a little, what is your problem ? - For me, you are acting arrogantly against the ideas and spirit of the community. EoD--Cookroach (talk) 03:36, 8 September 2024 (UTC)[reply]

@Cookroach: I'm sorry if you feel like not discussing this just because I provided the basic disagreement about it. Maybe assume good faith and don't be so sensitive about things next time. I'm allowed to disagree with you amd say I don't think waiting five more years is to phase out the categorize is a good way to deal with. People on here always like to cry foul abiut the other persons tone when they have no actually response though. But a few points if you'll allow me. Feel free to not respond to them. I could really care less.

1. You say I'm doing the wrong thing. I'm basing my edits off the outcome of a CfD. One that I didn't even participate in. So to the degree that you think that getting rid of "historical images" categories is wrong, that's on the people participated in the discussion and the closing admin. Its not my problem that other people decided to something on here a certain way though.

2. You say I'm not following the guidelines for deleting categories after a CfD is closed. Cool. Its possible I'm leaving out a step or something, but I read through the guideline and don't see anything there that I'm not following. So can you be more specific about what your talking about? Otherwise I'm going to ask you not to make false accusations about me or my actions again. Thanks.

3. Your free to complain about me in the proper venue, whatever that is. I can almost guarantee it won't go anywhere though. I'm also more then happy to propose a bumarang for the false accusations and insults though. I've been pretty resonable about this and I have zero tolerance for cry bullies. --Adamant1 (talk) 04:15, 8 September 2024 (UTC)[reply]

@Cookroach: (Copying my comment from the Admin's Noticeboard): I would like to subcategorize these images by time period (by year for a few images, by century for others) as well as create a broader subcategory for black-and-white photographs of Zeitz. There are a few images of an engraving from 1650 that could probably be given its own subcategory as well. Would that work as a compromise? ReneeWrites (talk) 14:57, 8 September 2024 (UTC)[reply]

Hello again, yes we can implement your suggestion, but we should not forget to consider a possible variant for all German cities/towns/villages. The whole thing should result in a system within a category tree similar to this meta-category and its subcategories. Actually, it is not smart to start with this small town in the south of Saxony-Anhalt and it is also not necessary to do it without first discussing it with others at a cross-state level. The risk that we will create a solution against which there are legitimate objections is too high. We have 16 federal states and each of them has a category with "Historical images of ..." (like this example), among them there are a number of counties and cities and municipalities (not all) which also have this subcategory "Historical images of ..." If we want to have a sustainable solution that is acceptable to all, we should do this at a higher level. How did you solve this in the Netherlands? Kind regards--Cookroach (talk) 15:23, 8 September 2024 (UTC)[reply]

From what I remember, by basically doing this. The "Historical images" subcategories were mostly populated with black-and-white photographs, so most of them could be moved to a subcategory for that. A smaller set of images were illustrations, paintings or engravings, so those were moved to those respective subcategories or a new one was created if there wasn't one yet. The few images that remained would be moved up to the parent category "History of". And everything was also sorted by time period: by year if the year was known, or by decade or century if only an estimate was known. ReneeWrites (talk) 16:23, 8 September 2024 (UTC)[reply]