Wikipedia:Deletion review/Log/2013 July 25

Gregorysung (talk|edit|history|logs|links|watch) (XfD|restore)

The page was created to describe the works of the design duo gregoysung since their efforts started in 2005. The change of the description of the main page to be "gregorysung, the stylized name of the award-winning Italian, South Korean, American design duo, working out of Milan, Seoul, Chicago, and New York and comprised of designer, engineer and professor Gregory Polletta and designer, artist and professor Sung Jang." should be a better representation of the designer and the use of the photo here http://commons.wikimedia.org/wiki/File:Photo_of_gregorysung.jpg should also be a better representation. All links, details contained within, photo's except of the one referneced above are all correct and accurate to the work of the designer. We hope the page can be edited to include the above description and the page can be returned based on the substantial work of the duo. Eastwestdesign (talk) 20:34, 25 July 2013 (UTC)[reply]

I'm comfortable with having a fresh article written from scratch. It should mention from the very first edit that "Gregory Sung" is a pseudonym jointly used by Gregory Polletta and Sung Jang; also, it should be written by someone totally unaffiliated with either one. The earlier version of the article, which fraudulently stated that "Gregory Sung" was one individual person, will not be restored in any way. DS (talk) 00:19, 26 July 2013 (UTC)[reply]

• Endorse deletion, the entire article treated Gregory Polletta and Sung Jang as a single person; dividing apart who did what would be a major effort. For example I doubt both were educated at exactly the same universities. I doubt they held a joint professorship. These are blatant and deliberate misrepresentations of facts (vulgo: lies). The design team may be notable, and it may be possible to write an article about it, but this one is so tainted with falsehoods and half-truths that it is likely beyond salvage. Matters are even worse because the same hoax seems to have been perpetrated on some of the sources, with one of them stating that "gregorysung" (who is not a person) is a national of the Republic of Korea. Huon (talk) 00:34, 26 July 2013 (UTC)[reply]
• Endorse deletion per DragonflySixtyseven and Huon, essentially. This was a hoax article which was created over the period of at least seven months (it was started as a draft in January). This involved multiple visits to the IRC help channel where this person, despite knowing full well that "Gregory Sung" was not a single person, continued to portray him as one. When this eventually came to light, and we asked the author if he was aware why this was a violation of Wikipedia policy, he kept stating that the article shouldn't be deleted because "this has never been done before", which is possibly one of the worst reasons I've ever seen to not delete something. It may be that they are notable as a pair of designers, but the article should not portray them as a single person. The content from the current article is not salvageable to make a new one. Also note that User:Eastwestdesign is a checkuser-confirmed sockpuppet of User:B design art, but I've decided not to block them so they can see how futile their efforts to trick and deceive us are. --(ʞɿɐʇ) ɐuɐʞsǝp 10:30, 26 July 2013 (UTC)[reply]

• Request review per dragonflysixtyseven, huon, deskana, ya makes sense but maybe the mess here can be cleaned up easily? this was never a hoax, wiki makes it very clear & explained on the creation page http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Wikipedia:Article_wizard/Musical_notability that only musicians are considerted "artists", but not designers. philip stark, marcel wanders they are 1 person and not in the "artist" category So for http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Gregorysung there was NO way to create an "artist" like page similar to http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Prince_%28musician%29 which was the full intent from the start. gregorysung not "Gregory Sung" was then created as SOMEONE http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Wikipedia:Article_wizard/Biographical_notability as it certainly wasn't a company of note http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Wikipedia:Article_wizard/Company_notability but maybe it should have been SOMETHING else http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Wikipedia:Article_wizard/General_notability ??? becasue wiki's policy seemed clear re: musicians are considered artists and although actually gregory and sung both play a few instruments each that's not the point of the article.

gregorysung not "Gregory Sung" is a (design) artist or brand? perhaps, composed of two designers with one 11 character name and they have been doing this since 2005 - well documented in blog postings, articles written, interviews, google images, galleries where gregorysung works have been shown. ok, it shouldn't have been done, that's very clear now, understood, but what other option was there? 20 days ago a request was made and details sent to info-en"wikimedia.ord detailing a keynote speech to be made at the Reesh Festival of Creativity Sept 2013 and that is why the edit was made to show the full distinction: an 8 year journey to create gregorysung and now to let the bird soar as two wings connected to one body so as to be discussed openly at the conference on literally how to create out of nothing, something.

only 1 month ago was the seperated image of gregorysung made public after amost 8yrs for the DIP'N by Guzzini and e-my http://www.e-my.com/gregorysung product and so now it's time to adjust whatever is necessary on wikipedia and make it clear to show gregory and sung's schooling and where they lecture and are lectured to show the separation. the photos on wikicommons do show this so teh seperated image should be acceptable or if this isn't, a new page with the Guzzini e-my image is good and the page can be http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Gregorysung(artist) or http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Gregorysung(designer) as this should be easy to create yes? seems the original page will be destroyed? if not can the original wikipage 11 character page name stay if possible. since it's very important to save a lot of time and pain, can someone copy the original page code to the new page so it can be fully edited to remove the not-allowed gregorysung as one person language so it can be submitted easily?

also on the current comment page there is some brutal language can that be edited so as to not offend anyone from the royal family of the Reesh Festival of Creativity when they look at the current page? the changes be necessary for the new page are very straight forward to implement as ALL the data on gregorsung's works, projects, etc., are very clear. just need to clear up the 1st section and detail sung as a professor in korea and chicago and gregory in milan, rome, paris and londn per their linked in profiles. after each having a +15yr career and spending the last 8yrs to create gregorysung the team of gregory and sung should not be penalized for the creation of gregorysung and miss this very important honor to deliver the keynote of "what is creativity" at this prestigious conference. User:talk:Creativeupholder (talk) —Preceding undated comment added 13:33, 26 July 2013 (UTC)[reply]

• Rewrite from scratch Looking at the article, I decided not to restore it, nor am I personally willing to restore it even as a working draft. The only way to produce an acceptable article would be to start over. The design section has too many unsourced sections, too many products are illustrated and some of the references that were given appear to be mere mentions. Not all the awards are notable, & at least one seems to be a nomination not an award. btw, the photo mentioned is a creative merge of two portraits, and cannot be used in the article, as it illustrates nothing, and I doubt that even combined they've been actually professors at so many schools--perhaps you mean instructors? The Art Institute of Chicago page lists Sung as an "Adjunct Assistant Professor" which is not = professor, but an outside professional teaching one or two courses. DGG ( talk ) 16:10, 26 July 2013 (UTC)[reply]

• Person, artist or something else is the only issue and the same issue as when the original entry was created: should the article be created as

1) a person 2) an artist (the preference) 3) As something else

All data is sourced correctly and references were listed in the article because the full articles could not be scanned in to wikicommons to be shown and/or references on some occasions were in the ongoing wordpress blog of the websites of the magazines where they are stored were not allowed. almost all of the articples mentioned are full articles and interviews but should they all be left out? it was explicit that they be put in so that gregorysung was considered noteable as it wasn't 1st deemed that gregorysung was noteable. re: the photo being a merge, that is fine. can the image from the guzzini emy website be used showing both parties? the whole point gregorysung is the merging of the two and has been for 8yrs. that was the point and the design exercise to create one person one design voice. and yes, combined they have been professors at as many schools as verified by their linked in profiles and recomendations. Sung currently lectures at the Art Institute currently and Gregory is currently at ENPC Paris. The exact breakdown of all universities lectures, courses given (if requested) and schools and experiences attended will be listed in career section of the article.

Starting over is fine. Can the name of the new article be "Design Duo gregorysung" and can it have a pointer or redirect from the old article to clear up any confusion? The formatting and gathering of all the data for the article took 7 months. It would very much apprecited if it can be made a working draft please so that everything can be cleaned up easily for the design conference taking place in 1 month where the keynote will take place. ALL the data is correct, the only issue is to clearly make the identificaiton of gregorysung as two parties clear which will be done in the top summary section and in the "Career" heading. it would be very helpful if it can be made a working draft under the title suggested

creativeupholder ( talk ) 16:10, 26 July 2013 (UTC)[reply]

Creativeupholder, put bluntly, I don't think you should have a hand in writing about gregorysung. Even in this very discussion you continue to misrepresent facts in order to spin a tale. That's simply not acceptable. Huon (talk) 17:54, 26 July 2013 (UTC)[reply]

For the record, you should only be using one account to make your posts in this discussion, creativeupholder aka eastwestdesign. Otherwise it could be construed as an attempt to deceive. DS (talk) 17:56, 26 July 2013 (UTC)[reply]

this is very clear and your direction is understood. simply, there is no "tale" here as 2 designers came together created a moniker like prince (but that wasn't allowed the page as an artist a person was created and incorrecly as such as pointed out by the admins) regardless the duo of gregorysung has been designing for 8yrs, designed and launched many products had interviews, won awards, that's all. no one knew how to create the article as a person, etc because doing it the way prince did it was not allowed. in the new artcile the phrase "the duo" will be used in place of "gregorysung" used in the original text and gregory and sungs schooling and where they lecture will be seperated. all works, articles, etc. are the same there is no difference. it should be cleared up before the keynote at the design conference so there are no further misunderstandings if that is ok. can a working template from the original data please be created? it will greatly speed up removing any and all confusion creativeupholder (talk) —Preceding undated comment added 18:03, 26 July 2013 (UTC)[reply]

can someone please create the article as an artist with the title Design Duo gregorysung and just let me know so I can get right to replacing gregorysung to "the duo" and adding in the respective schools they attended and where they taught. i don't want to do this improperly and be thrown back here to waste anyone elses time, just want to get this done properly. as for eastwestdesign, that person was booted and I was asked to solve the problem so I've taken over to get this done if that is ok. creativeupholder (talk) —Preceding undated comment added 19:47, 26 July 2013 (UTC)[reply]

I'm sure that when the design duo are notable by Wikipedia standards, someone unconnected will create an article, until then, there is no rush... keynote design conference or not! Theroadislong (talk) 19:59, 26 July 2013 (UTC)[reply]

To be clear, whether or not Mr Pelleto and Mr Jang make the keynote address at the conference has nothing to do with whether a Wikipedia article exists about them, jointly or severally. DS (talk) 23:03, 26 July 2013 (UTC)[reply]

if gregorysung was noteable then the 1st article would have never been approved. if it pleases the wikipedia team, the mention of mr polletta and mr jang can be in one line and everywhere else the name of gregorysung will be replaced with "the duo", unless it is necessary to list all their schooling, universities lectured at, etc. or it can be left it out, however together they are clearly experts in their fields of design and new product development. again, the work of gregorysung speaks for itself. the projects of gregorysung produced by major manufacturers and works published in numerous international publications and through interviews speaks for itself just like a song or a painting and the same is here: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ronan_%26_Erwan_Bouroullec also everyone is connected to someone somehow and i feel that their work is worthy enough. if there are some other criteria then please advise. if the individuals careers of mr jang and mr polletta are not good enough, even though they are substantial then the work of gregorysung is. again, the work speaks and has spoken for itself for 8yrs and viewed as worthy by an international audience already. still however no one has specified: is gregorysung: 1) a person 2) an artist (the preference) 3) As something else as the article cannot be created without this. what is http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ronan_%26_Erwan_Bouroullec considered in wikipedia? and yes Theroadislong the road is long, it has been traveled for 8yrs and that is why the 1st article was created and approved over 7 months with all due respect for all those who already approved it for the work itself and the collective +15yr experiences of the duo . creativeupholder (talk) 14:07, 27 July 2013 (UTC)[reply]

• Pre Page Creation Check

all data has been concatinated and fully simplifeid I will use same as the broullec brothers for a page entitled "design Duo gregorysung":

gregorysung is the name for the italian/american and korean/american gregory polletta and sung jang (b.1971 and 1977) design duo. In 2009 the the duo's "Pianoforte" line won the the Best of Elle Decor design award [1] and was included in the Roche Bobois Paris design collection as well as being included in the Best of Architectial Digest AD Collector Europe [2] and later the duo won a Design Duo Award - TL Magazine, Netherlands [3] for the Pour Celain series. The duo has used a combined image for the designer's photo since inception and signs works with the gregorysung name as a single word entirely in lowercase, attributing this to the relationship between parent manufacturer and child who in fact can create a parent protector.[6]

Both have each given full semeser, undergraduate, master and MBA/PhD classes internationally in New Product Development: Innovation & Renovation, Entrepreneurship and Intrapreneurship for New Product development: ENPC/Ecole Nationale des Ponts et Chaussees PhD/MBA program at France's oldest enginering school; Design for New Product Development: Parsons School of Design, Paris and Hochschule Luzern Lucerne School of Art & Design - Polletta plus Spatial Concepts, Product Aesthetics: Sookmyung University, Seoul; and Digital Moddeling Fabrication, RRendering and Visualization: Art Institute of Chicago - Jang. Polletta is a member of the London Speakers Bureau and American Program Bureau

The duo works internationally for clients and has completed projects for Roche Bobois, Christina Grahales Galleries, Guzzini E-my, Louis Vuitton, Appropriate Technology Collaborative, Philips De Pury, etc. and thier work has been described as "embodi[ing] beauty and the dilemma of duality that confronts issues between form and function in art and design" [3] while "creat[ing] alternatives for product development and aestetic direction that might have not been possible" [4] noted Sung Jang by "focus[ing] on what is considered impossible and then work[ing] to make it real, instead of only looking to what is 'acceptable' design", Gregory Polletta noted [5]

References

   [1] Best of Elle Decor, Elle Decor Magazine, 2009

[2] Best of Architectial Digest AD Collector Europe 2010 [3] Design Duo Award - TL Magazine, Netherlands 2010 [4] Planes Trains and Automobies - 360 Magazine pages 240-244" Issue #10 Fall 2007, Beruit Lebahanon [5] &life Magazine - Dukkan Communication and Publishing, 2006 Istanbul, Turkey [6] gregorysung - website, about us: www.gregrysung.com/aboutus.html

External links

   	Company's website: www.gregorysung.com

cristina grajales galleries: www.cristinagrajalesinc.com/artists/gregorysung

the only image will be that of pianoforte unless others are allowed. the only question is this a person, artist or other?

creativeupholder (talk) Creativeupholder (talk) 12:27, 28 July 2013 (UTC)[reply]

• Endorse deletion. Perhaps some established editor (who is not Creativeupholder or anyone else associated with the hoax material, not any socks thereof) can someday take a swing at writing a decent article on the same topic. But the current proponents of the article as written, have, to put it as gently as possible, strained the trust of the community to the breaking point. Hoaxes of all stripes are bad as they undermine our ability to be an information source, but hoaxes involving identifiable living persons are worse still due to the rather serious legal risks they present. Andrew Lenahan - Starblind 15:01, 28 July 2013 (UTC)[reply]

• Endorse deletion, entirely the correct action when a hoax page is uncovered, and if at some point it comes back it should be entirely unassociated with the hoaxers. Pinkbeast (talk) 15:50, 28 July 2013 (UTC)[reply]

• Endorse deletion, and salt deleted article. This behaviour is kind of really over the top. Lectonar (talk) 09:29, 29 July 2013 (UTC)[reply]

• then who ??? yes, the statement above of "unassociated with the hoaxers" and that is not me. the article was striped of all details other than the specifics of the works and where the duo has lectured for +7yrs i am not associated with the team nor a hoaxer. i know their work. who then is "allowed" to write the article? please suggest a specific writer and someone can contact them and send all the necessary supporting materials? is this what is being suggested? the work is of sufficient level and has been said as much above plus awards, etc., speak for itself no? createupholder (talk) Creativeupholder (talk) 15:30, 29 July 2013 (UTC)[reply]

Who is this "someone" who would contact the prospective author, and why would they want to do so? We're all volunteers; if someone feels inspired to write an article about gregorysung they'll do so. Personally I doubt they're all that notable. Huon (talk) 16:01, 29 July 2013 (UTC)[reply]

• please suggest well then give an option. eastwestdesign was denied writing the same article that was been submitted after the takedown and then banned, i was contacted. i rewrote the article and submitted it. now i am also banned. neither cannot ask for help on chat. we are in differnet countired. who is this someone? i would ask someone else as eastwestdesign asked me so long as that new person could ask for help in chat. why can't we? shall we as ask other students and/or industry professionals to submit? is what is being suggested? who then should write the article? the exact same details from 1st article are included in this article with actually 50% of the awards, products designed photos and very specific details removed so there would be no issue with having it accepted. as for "Personally I doubt they're all that notable." well then why were they accepted in the 1st place? the work speaks for itself has for 8yrs as well as the universites and speakers bureaus, etc., where the duo works & this mean the work and the duo are validated as noteable? who is "valid" to write the article if the above is not good enough?

Creativeupholder (talk) Creativeupholder (talk) 16:17, 29 July 2013 (UTC)[reply]

• "i would ask someone else as eastwestdesign asked me" ...wait, are you saying that eastwestdesign told you to comment here? Under what circumstances? Please clarify. Andrew Lenahan - Starblind 18:29, 29 July 2013 (UTC)[reply]

b-design wrote the 1st article it was accepted after 7mo, then got banned then asked eastwesdesign to start over, looks like they did, stripped everything out as instructed, then submitted, got banned, eastwestdesign said, this is rediculous, asked me to start all over again, so i did from scratch. submitted, then i got got banned. i mean how many people need to be asked for a fresh start and a complete rewrite of basic facts on their work? no data changes, it just keeps getting stripped down to less and less details each time. Creativeupholder Creativeupholder (talk) 21:19, 29 July 2013 (UTC)[reply]

Let's just clarify a few terms here. Creativeupholder, neither you nor b-design nor eastwestdeisgn are banned or blocked (these terms have specific meanings on Wikipedia, none of which are applicable here). What there is, is a very strong recommendation that none of you edit an article on gregorysung as you all appear to be connected to the duo in some respect and therefore have a conflict of interest which would prevent you editing the article in a neutral way. If someone else who has absolutely no connection wants to undertake an article on gregorysung that's fine but in light of the way the original article was worded, like Caesar's wife the author of a new article has to be above suspicion of COI. NtheP (talk) 09:38, 30 July 2013 (UTC)[reply]

• BANNED is banned I must be hallucinating then. As must the 3 other authors who have tried to submit a complete rewrite of this article since this situation has occured. With all due respect banned, is banned is blocked is blocked.

[12:29] == #wikipedia-en-help Cannot join channel (+b) - you are banned [12:30] Can't use this command in this window Please forgive my discomfort here. An article was written, it was accepted, it was deined, it was accepted, 3 people re-wrote it and now we are here. The article on gregorysung contains ALL the necessary 3rd party verified references a new article was started "Design Duo gregorysung" was started and banned and now we are at the same place again. A new article has been created by some folks who are in the design industry in Milan. Hopefully they won't get banned as well. Creativeupholder (talk)Creativeupholder (talk) 11:43, 31 July 2013 (UTC)[reply]

• Endorse deletion and salt: Blatant hoax. No more need be said. Dominus Vobisdu (talk) 17:36, 31 July 2013 (UTC)[reply]

• no longer even being allowed edit - immediate dismissal of submissions so a new person wrote an article today. The response from WikiPedia: "13:37, 31 July 2013 Starblind (talk | contribs) deleted page Wikipedia talk:Articles for creation/Design Duo gregorysung (G8: Talk page of a nonexistent or deleted page) 18:15, 29 July 2013 Starblind (talk | contribs) deleted page Wikipedia talk:Articles for creation/Design Duo gregorysung (Rework of article currently at DRV, consensus at this time is that creation of the article by this editor is not acceptable (see Wikipedia:Deletion review/Log/2013 July 25 ))

and again this makes no sense. So how is a design duo of 8yrs with published and produced international products a hoax? So no one will be given a chance to edit based on admin suggestions? article submissions will be deleted straight away? Seems so. This seems inconsistent with Wiki's policy and gestappo in tactic. The format of this article was copied exactly from the broullec brothers and philip starck articles. The tone is the same, factual and with many external citations. What part of the following is considered spam or advertising? It looks like this article is being banned to be clear. If someone would please just cut out what is considered "spam or advertising, I think this can be easily solved no? With 13 references to verrified external 3rd party sources there should be no issue. If this is considered spam or advertising then clearly marcel wanders, philip stark and the broullec brothers and any other person on wikipedia should also be removed as well. without the ability to be reviewed by multiple individuals, edit over time and fix errors and then submit, this is starting to look like descrimination of a noteable design team.

• That's not how DRV works. You don't get to re-create the article unless there is consensus here to do so. Sometimes articles are temporarily restored during a DRV, but due to the egregious nature of the situation it was decided above not to do so in this case. Again, please do not re-post the article here or anywhere else on Wikipedia unless consensus here says so first. If it happens again you will likely be blocked and the article title salted to prevent further re-creations against consensus. There's that word again, consensus. That's how Wikipedia works. You cannot have an article here merely through persistence or brute force. Andrew Lenahan - Starblind 19:41, 31 July 2013 (UTC)[reply]