Wikipedia:Articles for deletion/Timber Wolf (comics)

The following discussion is an archived debate of the proposed deletion of the article below. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the appropriate discussion page (such as the article's talk page or in a deletion review). No further edits should be made to this page.

The result was no consensus. Given the bounty of discussion I would ask a minimum of 3 months and preferably at least 6 before any renomination. Barkeep49 (talk) 01:39, 7 April 2020 (UTC)[reply]

Timber Wolf (comics) (edit | talk | history | protect | delete | links | watch | logs | views) – (View log · Stats)

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Article fails to establish notability. TTN (talk) 23:24, 13 March 2020 (UTC)[reply]

Note: This discussion has been included in the list of Fictional elements-related deletion discussions. TTN (talk) 23:24, 13 March 2020 (UTC)[reply]

Note: This discussion has been included in the list of Comics and animation-related deletion discussions. TTN (talk) 23:24, 13 March 2020 (UTC)[reply]

• Delete and redirect to Legion of Super Heroes as non-notable, and move redirect to Timber Wolf (DC Comics) for proper disambiguation._{ZXCVBNM (TALK)} 23:37, 13 March 2020 (UTC)[reply]

Comment - How many other Timber Wolf characters are there in comics? --Rtkat3 (talk) 18:03, 19 March 2020 (UTC)[reply]

Since people that say “not notable” will never check and make sure if the character is not notable I will add a potential sources list. My stance is Keep obviously and I am exhausted on explaining why.Jhenderson ⁷⁷⁷ 23:44, 13 March 2020 (UTC)[reply]

• https://www.cbr.com/legion-of-super-heroes-new-timber-wolf-influenced-by-darick-robertson-wolverine/
• https://screenrant.com/marvel-rip-off-dc-worst-worked/18/

• That is a single article from a website that has zero standards, and another site that has released a mindboggling eighty one listicles on March 13th, 2020 alone. You seem to be mixing pop culture notability and Wikipedia Notability in most of your arguments. TTN (talk) 23:53, 13 March 2020 (UTC)[reply]

Forget it. I am not trying any more. I noticed more sources. But I am still voting on keep. Nothing will suit you anyway. Just like nothing will change my vote. Jhenderson ⁷⁷⁷

• Keep per WP:NEXIST. I've found one non-fiction source here:
  • The Legion Companion by Glen Cadigan, TwoMorrows Publishing (2003)

Timber Wolf has also been discussed as part of Brian Michael Bendis' new Legion of Super-Heroes lineup:

• "Examing Bendis’ New Legion of Super-Heroes Group Picture", Comic Book Revolution (July 26, 2019)
• "What to Expect From DC’s New Legion of Super-Heroes" by Mike Cecchini, Den of Geek (Sept 30, 2019)

as well as listings for verifiability in the usual encyclopedias:

• DC Comics Year By Year: A Visual Chronicle, DK Publishing (2010)
• The DC Comics Encyclopedia DK Publishing (2004)

I think collectively this helps to demonstrate notability. I'll add these to the article in a Further reading section so that editors who want to improve the article can use these as resources. -- Toughpigs (talk) 03:19, 14 March 2020 (UTC)[reply]

• This largely seems like it's proving that Legion of Super Heroes is notable, which isn't really in question. They are most notable as a group, not as individual members._{ZXCVBNM (TALK)} 07:09, 14 March 2020 (UTC)[reply]

• Jesus H Christ. Not this stuff again.

For the Nth time: first of all, this article easily meets all of the 7 Virtues. Specifically, it easily meets (or can be made to meet) the WP:GNG. Most of our articles don't (as you'd see if you checked a large enough sample size of random articles). It's otherwise a perfectly good article, too -- better than our average article, in fact (again, check it against a random sample if you don't believe me).

Anyway, to delete an article that unquestionably meets the WP:GNG requires an extraordinary argument, far beyond "I don't think this guy is notable" which is what we got.

Second of all, the very first pillar of the Wikipedia:Five pillars is "Wikipedia is an encyclopedia". The opening words are "Our encyclopedia...", and this phrase is bluelinked to WP:ENCYCLOPEDIA, which opens with -- I'll reproduce the format here:

See where it says "Wikipedia... incorporates elements of... specialized encyclopedias"? They put it in big bold letters so that nobody would miss it. Supposedly.

So, what is the DC Comics Encyclopedia? What is the DC Universe? What is the Encyclopedia of American Animated Television Shows? All of which have entries on this entity (and there are probably others). Are these interpretive dances? Are they housing projects in Pueblo, Colorado, or stars in the constellation Cygnus, or 12th century Dutch priests, or any other thing except specialized encyclopedias? They're not.

And it's not like the nominator has not previously been shown this -- many times, in fact, I believe. He knows perfectly well that this entity is covered in depth, in several encyclopedia and elsewhere too. He does. He could edit the article to include these refs. But he's got a different agenda, doesn't he.

I'm pissed. I was getting ready to write an article, and instead I have to with this nonsense. This is not what AfD is for. It's tiresome and it's got to end. Herostratus (talk) 01:47, 18 March 2020 (UTC)[reply]

Nobody really cares about your soapbox rambling. Just say if you think it can pass WP:GNG and how. By the way, nothing that you posted helps it pass GNG. TTN (talk) 01:59, 18 March 2020 (UTC)[reply]

OK. We'll take this up at another venue. Herostratus (talk) 06:54, 18 March 2020 (UTC)[reply]

Was there any effort to establish notability before nomination?--Moxy 🍁 07:32, 18 March 2020 (UTC)[reply]

I guess it depends if you'd say the above links constitute significant coverage relevant to WP:GNG. I'd say I have a fundamental disagreement with many sources presented in these AfDs, topical pop culture stuff that barely mention the character, junk listicles from dubious sites, character encyclopedias that are entirely factual with zero commentary, etc. When I see links like those in a search, I completely ignore them as trivial coverage. TTN (talk) 11:25, 18 March 2020 (UTC)[reply]

• Keep - Let this page stay. He is a notable character and is one of the main characters in the Legion of Super-Heroes TV series. Plus, @Jhenderson777:, @Toughpigs:, and @Herostratus: are right about their keep reasons and I agree with their keep reasons. --Rtkat3 (talk) 18:03, 19 March 2020 (UTC)[reply]
• Redirect to List of Legion of Super-Heroes members. It has an entry for the character that contains all the real world information the current article does. The sources above show the character is notable as a member of the Legion, but do not show notability apart from it. The other media appearances are likewise instances of the character appearing as part of the team. Argento Surfer (talk) 15:13, 20 March 2020 (UTC)[reply]
• keep no convincing argument for deletion. Artw (talk) 21:53, 20 March 2020 (UTC)[reply]
• Redirect To List of Legion of Super-Heroes members, which contains all relevant information. The sources identified contribute to notability for the Legion of Super-Heroes, but not for this character. The article itself is sourced entirely to primary sources, and as such this article fails GNG. Devonian Wombat (talk) 23:53, 20 March 2020 (UTC)[reply]

• Keep per WP:GNG. Listings in other encyclopedias go a long way towards establishing notability. userdude 04:03, 21 March 2020 (UTC)[reply]
• Redirect to List of Legion of Super-Heroes members per Argento Surfer. The above sources show that the character's notability is tied to that of the team that he is part of. The important real-world aspects of the character are already covered on the target list, including his creators, his first appearance, and even the versions of the Legion he was part of. The only things that are not already covered there, really, are the copious amounts of in-universe WP:PLOT information. Rorshacma (talk) 03:41, 23 March 2020 (UTC)[reply]
• Redirect to List of Legion of Super-Heroes members. The character is tied to a group and I cannot find any reliable sources that indicate the character is notable on its own merits. --Darth Mike^(talk) 20:02, 23 March 2020 (UTC)[reply]
• Redirect. GNG tells us whether a topic is notable of not. But notability alone does not mean we automatically have to have a standalone page and in this case, as is fairly standard for minor characters in a franchise, a section on a list page is sufficient.  — Amakuru (talk) 23:56, 23 March 2020 (UTC)[reply]
• Keep. As even some of the supporters of nomination have acknowledged, reliable sources have been identified to establish notability for this article. WP:GNG is the standard by which we determine whether an article should be deleted, and it meets those guidelines, so should not be deleted. A merge or redirect discussion could always be raised on the article's talk page and/or the appropriate Wikiproject, since there is no clear and obvious consensus for that emerging in this AFD discussion. — Hunter Kahn 19:56, 24 March 2020 (UTC)[reply]
• Keep - Not much to say here that hasn't already been said. DarkKnight2149 10:07, 25 March 2020 (UTC)[reply]
• Redirect to List of Legion of Super-Heroes members. I agree with the other redirect !votes above that the sourcing shows the team is notable, but not the character individually. Also, per WP:PAGEDECIDE, the reader will be better served by being presented with information about this character on the same page as information about the team. Levivich ^{[dubious – discuss]} 15:58, 27 March 2020 (UTC)[reply]

• Keep The nomination fails to establish a reason to delete. Our policies indicate otherwise: WP:ATD, WP:BITE, WP:PRESERVE, &C. Andrew🐉(talk) 23:03, 31 March 2020 (UTC)[reply]

Comment. I am one of the keep voters and I am plan to seek more articles to show more notability and maybe improve the article. I think some of what @Toughpigs: placed is a good start but not enough so I encourage him to dig more and copyedit the article more (not just put them in see also). Bottom line I feel almost all the Silver Age Legion of Superheroes are notable. Yes I said that! So I am biased on the keep stance. With good reasoning. They have been around a while and rebooted with very popular writers etc. Especially this character. He even got his own comic book. He was even compared to (pop-culture wise) as the Wolverine before there was Wolverine. So anyway here comes the link dump at the bottom to help preserve the article even though Imperfect :

• [1] Comic Book Resources may be a obvious source but it still remains notable.
• [2] I assume it is a reliable source. Even though it won't be. If helps prove he got his own series.
• [3] I know it's a satire site but it's a fair example of Wolverine being called a rip-off of the character despite Wolverine being awesome.
• [4] another example from Screen Rant.
• [5] Reliable source maybe?
• The Comic Book Heroes: From the Silver Age to the Present (A book)
• "The characterization of Brin as having an aggressive, animal side has been inconsistent (although he did once morph into a full blown creature and was called "Furball"). What HAS been consistent is his portrayal as a big softie at heart. He was also from a planet called Zuun, which is amazing and always reminded me of Zoony the Lazoon from Fireball X-L 5."
• "Dave's design was, of course, based on Timberwolf, who he'd been drawing for a while in the Legion of Superheroes."
• [6] CBR again
• [7] Publication history detail maybe

Jhenderson ⁷⁷⁷ 18:22, 3 April 2020 (UTC)[reply]

The above discussion is preserved as an archive of the debate. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the appropriate discussion page (such as the article's talk page or in a deletion review). No further edits should be made to this page.