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The following discussion is an archived debate of the proposed deletion of the article below. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the appropriate discussion page (such as the article's talk page or in a deletion review). No further edits should be made to this page.

The result was keep‎. Though it is clear that the sourcing could still use improvement, a persuasive argument has been provided against a merger, and there is no consensus for deletion. Vanamonde (Talk) 09:55, 23 December 2023 (UTC)[reply]

State Bank Archives and Museum

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State Bank Archives and Museum (edit | talk | history | protect | delete | links | watch | logs | views) – (View log | edits since nomination)
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Could not find any 3P significanr coverage of this specific mueseum, lots of coverage of other monetary museum Sohom (talk) 14:30, 23 November 2023 (UTC)[reply]

Oppose. The article contains a significant number of independent sources. The nomination seems to be unusual Ldm1954 (talk) 16:52, 23 November 2023 (UTC)[reply]
Oppose. I express my gratitude for dedicating your valuable time to assess the content of this article. I am puzzled by the inclination to remove the article based on its perceived limited coverage in the media. The article has been meticulously supported by a substantial number of citations, which serve to underscore its relevance when juxtaposed with other institutions classified under the umbrella term 'monetary museums,' as appropriately characterized in your review. The relative obscurity of the museum in question should not be construed as indicative of its lack of significance or as a rationale for excluding it from Wikipedia. The SBI Archives and Museum, despite its lesser-known status, stands as a pivotal resource for both economic historians and inquisitive citizens, providing a foundational point for delving into the intricate history of banking and financial economy in India/Bengal. Sneharshidasgupta (talk) 13:16, 24 November 2023 (UTC)[reply]
I have no doubt that other monetary mueseums are relevant. However, this specific article is about the SBI museum in Kolkata, and I personally have not been able to find any third-party coverage of this specific museum. If you cannot provide enough sources on this specific museum, then that means that this specific museum is not notable and should not have a article. Sohom (talk) 14:42, 24 November 2023 (UTC)[reply]
Oppose. I appreciate your reply; however, my intended point may not be fully grasped. I do not intend to address the pertinence of other monetary museums in general. Rather, my focus lies in delineating the significance of the SBI Archives and Museums vis-à-vis other institutions of similar nature. Specifically, despite potentially receiving limited media coverage, its salient relevance and prospective importance should not be obscured. Simply put, your rationale positing 'less coverage = not notable' is particularly flawed in this specific context, as the crux of the issue lies in the distinctive nature of this institution being the State Bank of India Archives and Museum, and not some independent private initiatives. In the case of the latter, or even if it were some lesser-known government initiatives, perhaps I would have agreed with you. This Wikipedia article functions as a guide for researchers and the general populace, facilitating their exploration of the SBI Museum and Archive and promoting its global recognition. I kindly request that this article not be subject to removal or merger but rather undergo enhancement. Sneharshidasgupta (talk) 03:58, 25 November 2023 (UTC)[reply]
A few instances of third-party coverage:
a) Sahapedia: https://museumsofindia.org/museum/12396/sbi-archive-and-museum
b) The Hindu: https://www.thehindubusinessline.com/money-and-banking/SBI-MUSEUM-A-peek-into-the-evolution-of-Indian-banking/article20468064.ece
c) Economic Times: https://economictimes.indiatimes.com/markets/cryptocurrency/best-crypto-exchanges-apps-in-india-for-2023/articleshow/105462734.cms
d) The Indian Express: https://indianexpress.com/article/cities/kolkata/governor-visits-sbi-archive-revisits-bapu-s/
e) The Times of India: https://timesofindia.indiatimes.com/city/kolkata/a-walk-down-history-when-india-banked-on-calcutta/articleshow/73103013.cms
f) A notable school visit to the SBI Archives and Museum: https://mhsforgirls.edu.in/archive/mhs-archive/visit-to-sbi-museum-and-archives Sneharshidasgupta (talk) 04:19, 25 November 2023 (UTC)[reply]
For the SBI Archives and Museum's scholarly importance from a historical perspective: see, pp 43-46, https://bankinghistory.org/wp-content/uploads/2009-1-bulletin.pdf#page=31 Sneharshidasgupta (talk) 04:31, 25 November 2023 (UTC)[reply]
b) and d) are the only two that confer any kind of notabiity. But I don't think that passes the 'significant coverage' POV of the notability guidelines. I'm open to the idea of a merge/redirect to the main SBI article as proposed by @Rupples. Sohom (talk) 10:47, 25 November 2023 (UTC)[reply]
@Sneharshidasgupta. This Wikipedia article is not here to facilitate exploration of the SBI Museum and Archive and promote its global recognition — for that interested parties can go direct to the museum's own website. What we're looking for is independent significant coverage in reliable sources to determine whether in Wikipedia's evaluation this museum is notable. Out of the 14 references currently in the article only this one is about the SBI museum[1] and may count towards notability though looking at the raison d'etre of the LBB website makes me cautious of accepting its article as independent, but I'll give it the benefit of the doubt. The rest of the references are about other museums, history of banking in India and history of SBI — not its museum, or they are not independent as they're from the SBI museum itself. Rupples (talk) 10:58, 25 November 2023 (UTC)[reply]
As to the references above a) is a directory listing; b) maybe OK, can't accurately judge as behind paywall; c) about cryptocurrencies, irrelevant; d) maybe OK, can't accurately judge as behind paywall; e) about the RBI museum; f) school visit, not significant coverage; and the bankinghistory.org piece merely mentions the museum on page 46, the article is about the bank's history, not the museum. Needs more coverage to satisfy GNG IMO. Rupples (talk) 11:27, 25 November 2023 (UTC)[reply]
Apologies for the wrong link for c and e! Revised links, access here: https://economictimes.indiatimes.com/sbis-history-cell-remains-one-of-kolkatas-best-kept-secrets/articleshow/4394836.cms https://timesofindia.indiatimes.com/city/kolkata/guv-seeks-sbi-help-for-coin-museum/articleshow/4225721.cms Nevertheless, based on your comment, I do understand these passing mentions of the SBI Archives would not suffice considering these are not major coverage. Sneharshidasgupta (talk) 11:46, 25 November 2023 (UTC)[reply]
@Rupples Thank you for your comment; which, if I may add, is more constructive. I understand the rationale of your argument. Henceforth, exercise your discretion judiciously! As a new editor, I lack familiarity with the procrustean bed of notability guidelines. I shall be careful. Sneharshidasgupta (talk) 11:32, 25 November 2023 (UTC)[reply]
Have you tried to find coverage in non-English sources, if you're proficient in other languages? I rely on such sources being found by others and evaluating them using Google translations. Rupples (talk) 11:45, 25 November 2023 (UTC)[reply]
I have not. I will go through a few vernacular sources and see if I can find notable mentions. Thanks for the recommendation! Sneharshidasgupta (talk) 11:48, 25 November 2023 (UTC)[reply]
That's better. SBI's history cell remains one of Kolkata's best kept secrets [2] IMO counts towards the GNG, so getting there. Rupples (talk) 12:35, 25 November 2023 (UTC)[reply]
I agree, it is not the best quality but it definitely counts towards notability Sohom (talk) 21:12, 25 November 2023 (UTC)[reply]

Relisted to generate a more thorough discussion and clearer consensus.
Please add new comments below this notice. Thanks, Doczilla @SUPERHEROLOGIST 07:20, 1 December 2023 (UTC)[reply]

Comment: To make it more explicit, I no longer agree with my previous rationale to deletion and would happily support a merge. I do see atleast some (atleast 4) reliable sourcing here (thanks to the work done by @Sneharshidasgupta and @Rupples) and while I don't think it rises to a keep (due to the fact that the sources are not of the best quality), a I would definitely not support a outright deletion anymore. Sohom (talk) 14:13, 5 December 2023 (UTC)[reply]

Relisted to generate a more thorough discussion and clearer consensus.
Relisting comment: To consider merge.
Please add new comments below this notice. Thanks, Daniel (talk) 04:21, 9 December 2023 (UTC)[reply]

Relisted to generate a more thorough discussion and clearer consensus.
Relisting comment: Right now, two editors are objecting to Deletion and two others, including the nominator, are supporting a Merge but without providing a Merge target article. If this is what you'd like to happen, please mention ONE article that would benefit from the addition of some of the content of this article.
Please add new comments below this notice. Thanks, Liz Read! Talk! 02:48, 16 December 2023 (UTC)[reply]

  • The target article for a merge is State Bank of India under a new heading "State Bank Archive and Museum" and redirected, as suggested previously — assuming nominator Sohom agrees. Some, if not all of the existing categories should be added there as well. Rupples (talk) 04:11, 16 December 2023 (UTC)[reply]
    State Bank of India is the target article that I had in mind as well. (Maybe @Ldm1954 and @Sneharshidasgupta could weigh in as well ?) Sohom (talk) 11:57, 16 December 2023 (UTC)[reply]
    I continue to Oppose the deletion. I also Strongly Oppose a merge. Let me explain.
    The State Bank of India is where people will go to find out banking information, for instance where it is, how many countries it is in, number of employees etc.
    The museum, to state the first line is an initiative to document and preserve the history of banking in the Indian subcontinent. That is very different from a bank, and their intent is to cover banking in general. You may question whether it has managed to cover all of India, but that is not something we should do in Wikipedia -- we document.
    To give perhaps an extreme example to illustrate, we would not merge State Bank of India cricket team into State Bank of India. Ldm1954 (talk) 15:41, 16 December 2023 (UTC)[reply]
    I'm reading both User:Sneharshidasgupta and your opinions as keep. Appreciate the point you've made so I'm going to take a second look at the sources. The article has been stripped down to concentrate on the museum rather than ancillary topics. We're assessing notability for the museum under WP:NORG and the GNG. The sources that contribute to notability are [3], [4], [5]. [6], strictly speaking is same as timesofindia. [7] in my opinion doesn't count as it seems to be a listing. Sources are not brilliant because most are not indepth. It's borderline, but I think there's sufficient here to scrape a GNG pass. So the question I'm asking myself: "is the content better presented merged into SBI or dealt with in a separate article?". It's again a close call. Agree, it doesn't fit particular well in SBI if the aim of the museum is to exhibit and explain material, not just in the context of SBI but more generally. Based on this I'm going to change my view to weak keep. Rupples (talk) 19:04, 16 December 2023 (UTC)[reply]
    @Ldm1954 The first line that you are quoting is misquoted from the primary source The Archives is in possession of the rich documentary heritage of the Bank dating back between 1806 and 1955. It includes the first minute books of the Bank of Calcutta and with other important and valuable records among others. More than 25000 records with proper reference media for retrieval of the records for the research purpose. The series of records are as follows:..... As it stands right now most of sources are press releases and very shallow coverage, and I don't see enough material here to make a standalone article. Yes, Wikipedia's mission is to document, but that does not mean every venture by every notable company must be documented as a seperate article. This is merely a museum established by the for profit company to document it's own history, not the history of banking on the Indian subcontinent. This is no different from a particularly history bank branch/location. Sohom (talk) 19:58, 16 December 2023 (UTC)[reply]
The above discussion is preserved as an archive of the debate. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the appropriate discussion page (such as the article's talk page or in a deletion review). No further edits should be made to this page.
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