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Elemental Logic #2
Earth Logic
The second book in the Elemental Logic series, Earth Logic continues the story from the perspective of Karis, a complex character born of magic and now ruler for the country of Shaftal. Karis is a woman who can heal the war-torn land and expel the invaders, but she lives in obscurity with her fractious found family. With war and disease spreading, Karis must act quickly. And when Karis acts, the very stones of the earth sit up and take notice. “Another stunner of a book. The powerful but subtle writing glows with intelligence.” — Booklist
452 pages, Kindle Edition
First published March 1, 2004
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May 11, 2016
Gifted with the power of Shaftal but unwilling do to anything with it, Karis G'deon is at a stalemate with the Sainnites. A zealous group of followers decide to take matters into their own hands in hopes of helping the "Lost G'deon". Karis and her family must either act, or allow Shaftal to fall into chaos.
Plot
The plot of Earth Logic is basically all of the culminating things that lead to the end of the Sainnite versus Shaftali war. This does not mean that there is a lot of action. Throughout the book, “doing nothing” is the action a lot of characters choose to take at the insistence of Karis. This makes for an interesting story, but not a very riveting one. There are multiple strings of plot that, by the end of the book, are braided together in the most beautiful way. However, like I said, there’s a war that’s ending, but in a peaceful way, so there isn’t much action or fast-paced-ness to Earth Logic.
Writing
I don’t know if the writing has gotten better or if I’ve gotten used to the writing style. It might be a combination of both. I can say with some amount of certainty that the writing does seem better to me. Things weren’t as tedious to get through, though things were just as glacially slow in Earth Logic as in Fire Logic. The way the story was written this time around just made for a more interesting book. If you found yourself toiling through Fire Logic, you’d be pleased to learn that Earth Logic is a lot easier to get through, writing-wise.
Characters
In Fire Logic the main characters were Zanja, Karis, and Emil, with most of the story revolving around Zanja. Earth Logic gives some characters from the last book, Medric, J’han, and Norina, more screentime. And then there are new characters who are in leading positions, like Clement and Gilly. Unfortunately, as if to make up for how prominent Zanja was in Fire Logic, she doesn’t have all too much of a present in Earth Logic. Karis was, funnily enough, like a rock most of the time, not really doing anything, so it was hard to really like her character. Medric and Emil were cute, and Clement was, in my opinion, the best character in the book (simply because of Zanja’s mostly absence, though). She was very complex and I enjoyed her character.
Things I Liked
What I really, really liked was that this was a book that, though set in a different world, is based off of a past time period but didn’t include a bunch of misogyny and homophobia. Every random solider mentioned had just as much of a chance as being female as male, and same with the regular people of Shaftal. That, to me, was one of the best things of the book. Earth Logic helped reinforce the idea in Fire Logic that there isn’t any institutionalized sexism or homophobia. There were no comments about female soldiers being subpar to male soldiers or same-gender couples being “wrong” or “corrupt”. The world in the Elemental Logic series was such a breath of fresh air and I truly loved it.
Another thing I liked was the look we get into Shaftali family units. It was more hinted at in Fire Logic, but it’s outright stated in Earth Logic that family units tend to be large and made up of both biological and non-biological members, and at the center are children. This was very interesting to me, as families are always shown as nuclear and, for the most part, biological.
Things I Didn't Like
Once again, Marks’s “make peace with your violent colonizers” theme is in this book, and I can’t stand it. It’s a very white narrative to try to portray, no offense. It’s easy to say “these violent people came into our native land and murdered their way into a position of power, but let’s forgive them anyways”. I understand that the Shaftali are supposedly peaceful people, and the war has turned them from open, caring neighborly folks into suspicious, fearful individuals, but that’s not enough to get me to buy this narrative. Maybe if the Shaftali had been given more time to be shown as this peaceful people, and the war truly did change them for the worse, I could accept it. And even if the war ends peacefully, the Shaftali people have been scarred by the war and aren’t going to magically become peaceful and kind again like Karis and the others think they are.
Diversity
Zanja, the only confirmed person of color, isn’t as prominent in the book. There are multiple same-gender relationships portrayed, and there doesn’t seem to be any heteronormativity going on. Any random person cannot be assumed to be heterosexual. Pretty much any disability in the book are magically fixed, so no disabled diversity. No gender diversity either.
Overall
Earth Logic was a step up from Fire Logic. It was a lot more interesting and I found myself reading as much as I could to find out what happened instead of trying to finish the book as quickly as I could. But it’s still not the best book I’ve ever read. There still isn’t a lot of explanation (or any, really) about what these logics are, how they work, or anything else, really. In the end, it wasn’t a bad book, it was certainly better than the first one, but it still wasn’t as good as it had the potential to be.
Here is a link to my notes.
Plot
The plot of Earth Logic is basically all of the culminating things that lead to the end of the Sainnite versus Shaftali war. This does not mean that there is a lot of action. Throughout the book, “doing nothing” is the action a lot of characters choose to take at the insistence of Karis. This makes for an interesting story, but not a very riveting one. There are multiple strings of plot that, by the end of the book, are braided together in the most beautiful way. However, like I said, there’s a war that’s ending, but in a peaceful way, so there isn’t much action or fast-paced-ness to Earth Logic.
Writing
I don’t know if the writing has gotten better or if I’ve gotten used to the writing style. It might be a combination of both. I can say with some amount of certainty that the writing does seem better to me. Things weren’t as tedious to get through, though things were just as glacially slow in Earth Logic as in Fire Logic. The way the story was written this time around just made for a more interesting book. If you found yourself toiling through Fire Logic, you’d be pleased to learn that Earth Logic is a lot easier to get through, writing-wise.
Characters
In Fire Logic the main characters were Zanja, Karis, and Emil, with most of the story revolving around Zanja. Earth Logic gives some characters from the last book, Medric, J’han, and Norina, more screentime. And then there are new characters who are in leading positions, like Clement and Gilly. Unfortunately, as if to make up for how prominent Zanja was in Fire Logic, she doesn’t have all too much of a present in Earth Logic. Karis was, funnily enough, like a rock most of the time, not really doing anything, so it was hard to really like her character. Medric and Emil were cute, and Clement was, in my opinion, the best character in the book (simply because of Zanja’s mostly absence, though). She was very complex and I enjoyed her character.
Things I Liked
What I really, really liked was that this was a book that, though set in a different world, is based off of a past time period but didn’t include a bunch of misogyny and homophobia. Every random solider mentioned had just as much of a chance as being female as male, and same with the regular people of Shaftal. That, to me, was one of the best things of the book. Earth Logic helped reinforce the idea in Fire Logic that there isn’t any institutionalized sexism or homophobia. There were no comments about female soldiers being subpar to male soldiers or same-gender couples being “wrong” or “corrupt”. The world in the Elemental Logic series was such a breath of fresh air and I truly loved it.
Another thing I liked was the look we get into Shaftali family units. It was more hinted at in Fire Logic, but it’s outright stated in Earth Logic that family units tend to be large and made up of both biological and non-biological members, and at the center are children. This was very interesting to me, as families are always shown as nuclear and, for the most part, biological.
Things I Didn't Like
Once again, Marks’s “make peace with your violent colonizers” theme is in this book, and I can’t stand it. It’s a very white narrative to try to portray, no offense. It’s easy to say “these violent people came into our native land and murdered their way into a position of power, but let’s forgive them anyways”. I understand that the Shaftali are supposedly peaceful people, and the war has turned them from open, caring neighborly folks into suspicious, fearful individuals, but that’s not enough to get me to buy this narrative. Maybe if the Shaftali had been given more time to be shown as this peaceful people, and the war truly did change them for the worse, I could accept it. And even if the war ends peacefully, the Shaftali people have been scarred by the war and aren’t going to magically become peaceful and kind again like Karis and the others think they are.
Diversity
Zanja, the only confirmed person of color, isn’t as prominent in the book. There are multiple same-gender relationships portrayed, and there doesn’t seem to be any heteronormativity going on. Any random person cannot be assumed to be heterosexual. Pretty much any disability in the book are magically fixed, so no disabled diversity. No gender diversity either.
Overall
Earth Logic was a step up from Fire Logic. It was a lot more interesting and I found myself reading as much as I could to find out what happened instead of trying to finish the book as quickly as I could. But it’s still not the best book I’ve ever read. There still isn’t a lot of explanation (or any, really) about what these logics are, how they work, or anything else, really. In the end, it wasn’t a bad book, it was certainly better than the first one, but it still wasn’t as good as it had the potential to be.
Here is a link to my notes.
May 23, 2016
im a slut for amazing worldbuilding, beautiful lesbians and non-patriarchal family arrangements
[review 2 follow]
[review 2 follow]
November 15, 2016
The Elemental Logic series is shaping up to be one of those book series where I’m a fan of the characters and the world but not at all of the plot.
Earth Logic is the second in the Elemental Logic series, a fantasy series set in a world without sexism or heteronormativity. If you’re unfamiliar with the series, you should probably start with the first book, Fire Logic.
This is usually the point in the review where I give a basic plot synopsis. However, I’m not really sure what the plot of Earth Logic is? Karis is the G’deon, and it’s her responsibility to rule and care for the nation of Shaftal, which is currently invaded by foreigners, the Sainnites. The occupation needs to be ended, but the entire plan for this revolves around vague prophecies which make no sense to me. Have I mentioned how much I hate fantasy books where the entire plot is based off prophecy?
Anyway, the prophecy says that if Shaftal is to be saved, Zanja must be dead. That’s literally all the information given, and the characters decide to act on this? I have no idea how the entire Zanja plot line is at all relevant to the book!
In reflection, it felt like not a lot happened in Earth Logic, especially when it comes to the chapters concerning the characters from Fire Logic. There’s some angsting over what to do about the Zanja prophecy. There’s lots of sitting around and talking. There’s lots of Karis doing nothing. Is it any surprise that my favorite character in this book was one of the new POV characters, Clement, who seemed like the only person in the book actually doing things?
Clement is a high placed officer of the Sainnites who was brought to the country of Shaftal by her adoptive soldier mother when she was a child. She also is one of the few people who know just how bad thing are looking for the Sainnites. Basically, demographics are not in their favor. Since all of the Sainnites are soldiers, they have very few children. And what children they do manage to raise up inevitably become new soldiers and tend to get killed in rather short order.
I still like the characters of this series. I still like that it’s set in a world where queer relationships are normal and no one raises an eye at women doing things or holding positions of authority. But while I really liked Fire Logic, I found Earth Logic disappointing. I don’t know if I’ll be continuing with this series.
Originally posted on The Illustrated Page.
Earth Logic is the second in the Elemental Logic series, a fantasy series set in a world without sexism or heteronormativity. If you’re unfamiliar with the series, you should probably start with the first book, Fire Logic.
This is usually the point in the review where I give a basic plot synopsis. However, I’m not really sure what the plot of Earth Logic is? Karis is the G’deon, and it’s her responsibility to rule and care for the nation of Shaftal, which is currently invaded by foreigners, the Sainnites. The occupation needs to be ended, but the entire plan for this revolves around vague prophecies which make no sense to me. Have I mentioned how much I hate fantasy books where the entire plot is based off prophecy?
Anyway, the prophecy says that if Shaftal is to be saved, Zanja must be dead. That’s literally all the information given, and the characters decide to act on this? I have no idea how the entire Zanja plot line is at all relevant to the book!
In reflection, it felt like not a lot happened in Earth Logic, especially when it comes to the chapters concerning the characters from Fire Logic. There’s some angsting over what to do about the Zanja prophecy. There’s lots of sitting around and talking. There’s lots of Karis doing nothing. Is it any surprise that my favorite character in this book was one of the new POV characters, Clement, who seemed like the only person in the book actually doing things?
Clement is a high placed officer of the Sainnites who was brought to the country of Shaftal by her adoptive soldier mother when she was a child. She also is one of the few people who know just how bad thing are looking for the Sainnites. Basically, demographics are not in their favor. Since all of the Sainnites are soldiers, they have very few children. And what children they do manage to raise up inevitably become new soldiers and tend to get killed in rather short order.
I still like the characters of this series. I still like that it’s set in a world where queer relationships are normal and no one raises an eye at women doing things or holding positions of authority. But while I really liked Fire Logic, I found Earth Logic disappointing. I don’t know if I’ll be continuing with this series.
Originally posted on The Illustrated Page.
January 3, 2021
This picks up after a five-year timeskip that allows the relationships and society to progress at a reasonable pace, and it expands its focus from a central protagonist to her entire family. That feel-good core encompasses a larger and increasingly troubled/politically-ambiguous cast, building on the first book's successful balance between character-level investment and meaty worldbuilding. The magic I find less successful; it's bigger, more physical, which set against expetations built by the first book makes it feel metaphorical and thus (no pun intended) ungrounded.
But this sticks the landing--sticks it precisely when it seems it will falter: the political conflict differs from real-world analogs, and just when it seems to use its basis in fantasy to perpetuate tired equivalencies between the violence of oppressor and oppressed, it instead makes vocal, necessary space for anger and reparation. This series is good--not flawless, but it successfully balances its narrative elements and it approaches its themes with a persistent, thoughtful nuance. I may not have loved this as much as Fire Logic, but it's still satisfying.
But this sticks the landing--sticks it precisely when it seems it will falter: the political conflict differs from real-world analogs, and just when it seems to use its basis in fantasy to perpetuate tired equivalencies between the violence of oppressor and oppressed, it instead makes vocal, necessary space for anger and reparation. This series is good--not flawless, but it successfully balances its narrative elements and it approaches its themes with a persistent, thoughtful nuance. I may not have loved this as much as Fire Logic, but it's still satisfying.
July 21, 2007
Don't judge this book by its cover, which is awful. This is a solid continuation of the Elemental Logic series. Characterization is the great strength of this series; the characters are complex, prickly, sometimes hard to love, but always wonderful to read about. It's a welcome alternative to the callow protagonists of a lot of mainstream fantasy. In Fire Logic, I particularly liked Norina; here I was especially fond of Clement and Garland, and the new perspective they gave us on old friends like Karis, Zanja, Emil, Medric, Norina, Jhan, Mabin, etc. I am looking forward to reading the next book in the series when I get a chance.
November 23, 2022
i was really disappointed by this one. it started strong but then just meandered for two hundred pages with an unsatisfying resolution.
i was particularly interested to see how zanja and karis' relationship would develop in this book. in the first book, they're drawn to each other under incredible circumstances and it would have been interesting to see how their personalities clash (or mesh) with those external factors out of the way. the text even explicitly articulates zanja's fear of inaction vs karis' fear of action which was an interest contrast! but then zanja disappears for a poorly explained magic metaphor journey for half the book.
i also immensely disliked clement and her chapters... which unfortunately make up half the book. she's a spineless "just-following-orders" soldier and i'm supposed to be endeared to her just because she is nice to the soldiers in her command? after she kidnaps children from civilians and sends them to their deaths? after she uses a prostitute because she's lonely? there's no justice for any of the people who suffer at her hands, they're just fodder for her character arc. and the book ends with her gaining everything and sacrificing nothing. given that her arc parallels zanja being so traumatized by the genocide of her people that she consigns herself to death, i am hard pressed to feel anything other than irritation (at best) and hatred for clement. at least other saiinite characters we meet take risks to mitigate the harm their people have caused or at the very least refrain from further harm by deserting the military. clement does exactly ..... fuck all. i guess she gets punched in the nose and that makes up for her crimes.
while i understand the theme of this book is that there is no such thing as a good war (hardly a novel theme), the way its addressed feels underwhelming and simplistic. oh war-torn country you ought to embrace the people who landed on your shore to rape and pillage you because they had a rough childhood and some of them make a mean pie. at least it ended with the acknowledgement that it was a sham peace with no justice for all the people who had suffered. i've seen people rave about how they find this series to be refreshing because its free of sexism which i find to be a baffling claim given that rape and prostitution are central to the story, all the prostituted characters are female and men from the saiinite army routinely shaftali women to keep their army going. but the narrative itself glosses over this entirely, never dwelling on its implications - so maybe its not surprising.
this book is not nearly as character driven as the first book - everyone has settled into a cosy found family with minimal conflict. some of the scenes have a warm comfort to them but it doesn't make for particularly exciting reading and if i wasn't emotionally attached to these characters from the first book, i would have found this one a struggle to get through.
i was particularly interested to see how zanja and karis' relationship would develop in this book. in the first book, they're drawn to each other under incredible circumstances and it would have been interesting to see how their personalities clash (or mesh) with those external factors out of the way. the text even explicitly articulates zanja's fear of inaction vs karis' fear of action which was an interest contrast! but then zanja disappears for a poorly explained magic metaphor journey for half the book.
i also immensely disliked clement and her chapters... which unfortunately make up half the book. she's a spineless "just-following-orders" soldier and i'm supposed to be endeared to her just because she is nice to the soldiers in her command? after she kidnaps children from civilians and sends them to their deaths? after she uses a prostitute because she's lonely? there's no justice for any of the people who suffer at her hands, they're just fodder for her character arc. and the book ends with her gaining everything and sacrificing nothing. given that her arc parallels zanja being so traumatized by the genocide of her people that she consigns herself to death, i am hard pressed to feel anything other than irritation (at best) and hatred for clement. at least other saiinite characters we meet take risks to mitigate the harm their people have caused or at the very least refrain from further harm by deserting the military. clement does exactly ..... fuck all. i guess she gets punched in the nose and that makes up for her crimes.
while i understand the theme of this book is that there is no such thing as a good war (hardly a novel theme), the way its addressed feels underwhelming and simplistic. oh war-torn country you ought to embrace the people who landed on your shore to rape and pillage you because they had a rough childhood and some of them make a mean pie. at least it ended with the acknowledgement that it was a sham peace with no justice for all the people who had suffered. i've seen people rave about how they find this series to be refreshing because its free of sexism which i find to be a baffling claim given that rape and prostitution are central to the story, all the prostituted characters are female and men from the saiinite army routinely shaftali women to keep their army going. but the narrative itself glosses over this entirely, never dwelling on its implications - so maybe its not surprising.
this book is not nearly as character driven as the first book - everyone has settled into a cosy found family with minimal conflict. some of the scenes have a warm comfort to them but it doesn't make for particularly exciting reading and if i wasn't emotionally attached to these characters from the first book, i would have found this one a struggle to get through.
September 17, 2017
Story about Shaftal, a land in a 20 years war, continues in this volume which also continues the stories of all the characters we had got to know in the first book. They are much changed from their ordeals, and yet stuck in passivity. The way out of that passivity is baffling, and frankly I didn't completely get it.
Here, the POV shifts between two warring people - Shaftali and Sainnites. I think it was very well done, as we got to understand the people we have come to dislike in the first book. I think Clement, a Sainnites Leutenat-General, is one of the best rounded characters in the series so far. I enjoyed her story and character arc!
I like the world-building and how the feel for the world and its people grows through the narrative. There is no info-dumps and we get to experience many of the things through characters, or their flash-backs. I also like the way trauma is dealt with here: without unnerving detail, and respectful of the victims.
The strongest selling point of these books for me are still characters. They are vivid, with strong personalities, and every one adds something to the story.
"Zanja asked if she and Karis would be separated forever - and the dreadful answer was that they would not separate at all. They were bound together on the side of the cliff, trapped there, each of them unable to choose to let the other one fall. And there they were destined to remain."
Here, the POV shifts between two warring people - Shaftali and Sainnites. I think it was very well done, as we got to understand the people we have come to dislike in the first book. I think Clement, a Sainnites Leutenat-General, is one of the best rounded characters in the series so far. I enjoyed her story and character arc!
"She should have known better than to become fond of a young soldier, Clement thought bitterly. All Sainnite children die in war. As fast as we send them into battle, they die. We might as well just kill them when they're born and save us all the trouble of raising them."
I like the world-building and how the feel for the world and its people grows through the narrative. There is no info-dumps and we get to experience many of the things through characters, or their flash-backs. I also like the way trauma is dealt with here: without unnerving detail, and respectful of the victims.
"You've seen some things worth seeing, and I like the way it's marked you."
The strongest selling point of these books for me are still characters. They are vivid, with strong personalities, and every one adds something to the story.
"Do you think there might be something a bit disordered about our lives?" "We've got too much talent and not enough sense."
September 20, 2021
I reread, but one I remembered so little of it may as well have been a first read.
I love these books, I really do. The rich world-building, the messaging, the characters, the relationships, the story. The symbolism. There's beautiful and poignant quotes. I enjoyed that this book was told, largely, from the perspective of the Sainnites (Garland and Clement were the two biggest POV characters, eepecially in the latter half). I love all of it. It's fantastic.
And yet somehow, it takes me FOREVER to read these books. Nearly four weeks it took me to finish this! It never takes me that long to finish a fiction book. I have no idea why, when I love everything about the story so much, it is just such a slough to read. Is it the writing style? The pacing? I don't get it.
Anyway, it's excellent and I love it but goddamn. Nearly four weeks.
I love these books, I really do. The rich world-building, the messaging, the characters, the relationships, the story. The symbolism. There's beautiful and poignant quotes. I enjoyed that this book was told, largely, from the perspective of the Sainnites (Garland and Clement were the two biggest POV characters, eepecially in the latter half). I love all of it. It's fantastic.
And yet somehow, it takes me FOREVER to read these books. Nearly four weeks it took me to finish this! It never takes me that long to finish a fiction book. I have no idea why, when I love everything about the story so much, it is just such a slough to read. Is it the writing style? The pacing? I don't get it.
Anyway, it's excellent and I love it but goddamn. Nearly four weeks.
April 12, 2021
I'm still so in love with this series. It asks difficult questions, then makes you wrestle with them on either side of the playing field. This one broke my heart about eight different times and then put it back together again.
Also from now on I'm going to personally demand that every fantasy series just be about a rag tag group of gays who all love each other and care for one another and also save the world, I guess.
Also from now on I'm going to personally demand that every fantasy series just be about a rag tag group of gays who all love each other and care for one another and also save the world, I guess.
August 30, 2007
I actually liked this, the second book in the Elemental Logic trilogy, better than the first, which is a nice surprise. In Fire Logic, Marks introduced a country formerly known for its hospitality and philosophy that was invaded by warriors from across the ocean. Colonialism, culture appropriation, genocide and mixed-race children are all hugely important to the plot; the entire thing, in fact, is about culture clash. It is very much a fantasy series—most characters have magic of some kind—but an exceedingly thoughtful one.
The first book followed the rebels against Saiinite rule; this book follows a Saiinite leader, Lt.Gen. Clement. I really enjoyed seeing the characters through their foes' eyes, but even more I loved the Saiinite herself.
The first book followed the rebels against Saiinite rule; this book follows a Saiinite leader, Lt.Gen. Clement. I really enjoyed seeing the characters through their foes' eyes, but even more I loved the Saiinite herself.
October 16, 2018
I loved this book, much like its predecessor Fire Logic. The world building is subtle and well-rounded, the characters are complex and three-dimensional, they have likeable and dislikeable sides to them, they have motivations for their actions which make sense. Most of them are competent at what they're doing and its a very subtle story for a Fantasy book whose main charactes are mostly soldiers. The magic system confused me at times, at did some of the plot points, but that is likely due to me having read Fire Logic ages ago.
April 10, 2023
4/5 — Slow burn. I enjoyed the story although it develops slowly and sometimes the ‘logic’ the various characters use is difficult to follow, such as ‘why’ and particularly ‘when’. Story can also be hard to follow. The world itself can be compelling, moments of beautiful prose, and messages that may make you consider different points of view. The character points of view can be very interesting and I enjoyed seeing them again from another’s characters point of view. It’s also a look at effects of colonialism though the colonizers were put in that position due to their own unfortunate circumstances. A lot of interesting themes here.
July 4, 2012
The first part of the book took a bit of getting into, but that might be because I was struggling to remember all of the details from the first volume in the series. Meanwhile, the world continued to develop, now with a fascinating look at family life --- multiple couples all living and working together in an intentional community. I actually liked the new characters more than I enjoyed watching the growth of the old characters.
But the cover?! The heroine pictured is supposed to be a giant blacksmith. I suspect she would have worn more clothes and looked more mountainous....
But the cover?! The heroine pictured is supposed to be a giant blacksmith. I suspect she would have worn more clothes and looked more mountainous....
May 25, 2012
There are so many things in this book! It is very thingful. And thingful books are my favorite.
November 6, 2022
Still so wonderful.
July 7, 2023
Earth Logic picks up four years after the end of Fire Logic, broadening the scope of the world and introducing several new characters.
First, the good. Up till now the main characters have viewed the Sainnites as brutal and violent oppressors (and deservedly so), but this book shows you a different side to them. For the first time you see through the Sainnites’ perspective with the addition of two new POV characters: Clement, the lieutenant-general of a garrison of soldiers, and Garland, a runaway cook. You get to understand how the Sainnite military culture drives out good tender things like kindness and generosity and turns children into soldiers, and it’s rather tragic. I liked Clement’s chapters particularly. She is working hard to keep her soldiers alive in the freezing winters of Shaftal where her people are becoming weaker and the people they’ve oppressed for thirty years are becoming stronger.
One aspect of the magic I enjoy is the way that the element a person uses shapes their thinking. Fire bloods are said to be imaginative and passionate. Air bloods are said to be rational, intelligent, and honest. This is what is meant by the terms “fire logic” and “air logic.” I wish the author had expanded on this more, though. This book is titled “Earth Logic” but it doesn’t focus on the one earth elemental character. Karis does use her abilities a lot more in this book than she does in the first one, but she is distant from the narrative much of the time and she doesn’t have any POV chapters, which was disappointing when she should have been the central character in this book.
This brings me to the bad.
I also didn’t like how the characters had to change their normal thoughts and beliefs and become doting sycophants to Karis as though she’s some kind of god and not a normal person who can be right or wrong.
As a result the conflict is resolved too easily. The group distributes Medric’s book about the Sainnites. Karis finally accepts the responsibilities of being the G’deon and decides that the war is over, and so it is. If her will was that strong she could have established peace any time within the last twenty years. The next book might make up for that by showing that things aren’t that simple because it is mentioned several times that not all Shaftali are willing to forgive the Sainnites and that some Shaftali will even be angry with Karis for not letting them have revenge. But if Karis’s influence on the rest of Shaftal is just as strong as it is on her friends, might as well have Karis declare that hunger is over, poverty is over, sickness is over, and crime is over and spare us from two more books.
First, the good. Up till now the main characters have viewed the Sainnites as brutal and violent oppressors (and deservedly so), but this book shows you a different side to them. For the first time you see through the Sainnites’ perspective with the addition of two new POV characters: Clement, the lieutenant-general of a garrison of soldiers, and Garland, a runaway cook. You get to understand how the Sainnite military culture drives out good tender things like kindness and generosity and turns children into soldiers, and it’s rather tragic. I liked Clement’s chapters particularly. She is working hard to keep her soldiers alive in the freezing winters of Shaftal where her people are becoming weaker and the people they’ve oppressed for thirty years are becoming stronger.
One aspect of the magic I enjoy is the way that the element a person uses shapes their thinking. Fire bloods are said to be imaginative and passionate. Air bloods are said to be rational, intelligent, and honest. This is what is meant by the terms “fire logic” and “air logic.” I wish the author had expanded on this more, though. This book is titled “Earth Logic” but it doesn’t focus on the one earth elemental character. Karis does use her abilities a lot more in this book than she does in the first one, but she is distant from the narrative much of the time and she doesn’t have any POV chapters, which was disappointing when she should have been the central character in this book.
This brings me to the bad.
I also didn’t like how the characters had to change their normal thoughts and beliefs and become doting sycophants to Karis as though she’s some kind of god and not a normal person who can be right or wrong.
Karis had said that [the war wouldn’t continue]. And Mabin clearly thought that peace without victory would be impossible, and Norina might well have agreed with her, except that the law required her to agree with Karis, no matter what. So she agreed with her.This is so stupid I don’t even have words.
Karis said flatly, “The war is over.” A statement of fact.
Karis’s advisors all nodded distractedly: fire logic’s uncertainty was resolved; air logic shifted its entire rationale to match a new principle; earth logic remained inarguable.
As a result the conflict is resolved too easily. The group distributes Medric’s book about the Sainnites. Karis finally accepts the responsibilities of being the G’deon and decides that the war is over, and so it is. If her will was that strong she could have established peace any time within the last twenty years. The next book might make up for that by showing that things aren’t that simple because it is mentioned several times that not all Shaftali are willing to forgive the Sainnites and that some Shaftali will even be angry with Karis for not letting them have revenge. But if Karis’s influence on the rest of Shaftal is just as strong as it is on her friends, might as well have Karis declare that hunger is over, poverty is over, sickness is over, and crime is over and spare us from two more books.
September 11, 2018
I dove straight from Fire Logic into Earth Logic. Karris, revealed as the lost G'deon, plays a more prominent part here. I found the segment where she recovers from her smoke addiction moving. A lot of the pacing involved restless waiting but that is probably pretty realistic in a war (99% boredom and 1% terror?). Norina and J'han's daughter is more grown-up and develops a personality. Children are not often incorporated into fantasy books except in those coming of age fantasy YA so this was an unusual example of a child tagging along for the adventure. A lot of times she whined and made herself a bother but the group who had all become her parents accommodated her. The other interesting angle mentioned was the logistical reproductive capabilities of the invading Sainnites. Important revelations and a turning point of the war. We also get new POVs from Clement (a lieutenant-general in the Sainnite army) and Garland (a deserter Sainnite cook who joins the ragtag resistence Shaftali group). Cadmar the Sainnite general was all too reminiscent of the Trumps of this world.
I liked the story of the plague and the folklore that sprang up to explain it. In reality, I can see how this fable could be used to explain to low literacy groups how to eliminate the illness.
With both the books, I feel the author has incorporated some Asian culture into her world-building. One gets hints and wisps here and there - the numerous reference to drinking green tea and the elaborate tea ceremony, the small porcelain tea cups and tea-set, eating of buns and dumplings. The description of the glyphs in book one reminded me of either kanji or chinese characters. I can almost picture the region as being somewhere in Central Asia perhaps?
I was a little baffled by how much the group obsessed and depended on the glyph readings, which sounded like tarot card readings. The whole plan of killing Zanja really seemed quite half-baked. The sentient ravens were depended on far too much to move the plot along.
'Forgive your colonizers' and 'embrace love not hate lest you turn into them' is an overarching theme throughout. Venturing into the real world for a second, I wonder what the Tibetans, the Palestinians, the Chechnyans, the indigenous groups around the world think of that.
Overall, I still find this fantasy series to be refreshing, mostly through its normalizing of same sex couples and community. There's been a lot of positive LGTBQIA fantasy work released since this was published in the 2000s but I would still recommend it to other fantasy lovers searching for something different.
I liked the story of the plague and the folklore that sprang up to explain it. In reality, I can see how this fable could be used to explain to low literacy groups how to eliminate the illness.
With both the books, I feel the author has incorporated some Asian culture into her world-building. One gets hints and wisps here and there - the numerous reference to drinking green tea and the elaborate tea ceremony, the small porcelain tea cups and tea-set, eating of buns and dumplings. The description of the glyphs in book one reminded me of either kanji or chinese characters. I can almost picture the region as being somewhere in Central Asia perhaps?
I was a little baffled by how much the group obsessed and depended on the glyph readings, which sounded like tarot card readings. The whole plan of killing Zanja really seemed quite half-baked. The sentient ravens were depended on far too much to move the plot along.
'Forgive your colonizers' and 'embrace love not hate lest you turn into them' is an overarching theme throughout. Venturing into the real world for a second, I wonder what the Tibetans, the Palestinians, the Chechnyans, the indigenous groups around the world think of that.
Overall, I still find this fantasy series to be refreshing, mostly through its normalizing of same sex couples and community. There's been a lot of positive LGTBQIA fantasy work released since this was published in the 2000s but I would still recommend it to other fantasy lovers searching for something different.
July 10, 2022
There are two through lines in this book, continued from Fire Logic.
I consider a book when it has characters with one motivation, who act to achieve their goals, and when their goals are achieved the book is over. A complex book has characters with multiple motivations, sometimes contradicting each other. Fire/Earth logic is full of characters with many motivations, and the beauty of it is letting the setting's magical prophecies and prescience pull out their motivations and set them against each other. It is not just that the multiple motivations are in conflict, it is that the setting uses magic to heighten and highlight the conflict. Symbols are laid out by prophets, but even the symbols themselves are subverted and their dual meanings are set out against each other. It's a very neat trick.
The second throughline is almost embarassing. I felt really uncomfortable with the deep message of this book, despite it being something I agree with entirely. The message is that revenge is hollow, retribution is not a path forward, and:
"Kindness and generosity[...] can never be earned and will never be deserved. Hospitality is not an act of justice, but of mercy—a mercy beneficial to everyone, by making it possible to depend on and trust each other."
I think it would be very easy to write a book where oppressors are forgiven by the oppressed and everyone is happy. I do not think that this is the conclusion of Earth Logic, which by no means shies away from the crimes of the invading force. I think Fire Logic/Earth Logic are very interested in what reconciliation really looks like and how that process begins. That's kind of radical, right? Certainly there is no shortage of characters in the book who resist it. Some of them end up convinced. Some of them are on the receiving end of some absolutely brutal conversations which took my breath away in the manner that they cut to the core of another character. And yeah, a few of those characters end up dead. But one of them is POV character who I love now. And she has compassion for her fellows and we share it through her POV.
Is this book a political allegory for a specific conflict? I mean, you could read it that way, but because I think it is a complex book I think it has more than one thing going on. It has beautiful use of symbolism and prophecy. The way it deploys its message is stunning not only for its radical nature but also for the way it lays bare the relationship between characters. I am still thinking about this book even after I finished it. It probably changed the way I think, a little bit. For that reason, I think it holds up.
I consider a book when it has characters with one motivation, who act to achieve their goals, and when their goals are achieved the book is over. A complex book has characters with multiple motivations, sometimes contradicting each other. Fire/Earth logic is full of characters with many motivations, and the beauty of it is letting the setting's magical prophecies and prescience pull out their motivations and set them against each other. It is not just that the multiple motivations are in conflict, it is that the setting uses magic to heighten and highlight the conflict. Symbols are laid out by prophets, but even the symbols themselves are subverted and their dual meanings are set out against each other. It's a very neat trick.
The second throughline is almost embarassing. I felt really uncomfortable with the deep message of this book, despite it being something I agree with entirely. The message is that revenge is hollow, retribution is not a path forward, and:
"Kindness and generosity[...] can never be earned and will never be deserved. Hospitality is not an act of justice, but of mercy—a mercy beneficial to everyone, by making it possible to depend on and trust each other."
I think it would be very easy to write a book where oppressors are forgiven by the oppressed and everyone is happy. I do not think that this is the conclusion of Earth Logic, which by no means shies away from the crimes of the invading force. I think Fire Logic/Earth Logic are very interested in what reconciliation really looks like and how that process begins. That's kind of radical, right? Certainly there is no shortage of characters in the book who resist it. Some of them end up convinced. Some of them are on the receiving end of some absolutely brutal conversations which took my breath away in the manner that they cut to the core of another character. And yeah, a few of those characters end up dead. But one of them is POV character who I love now. And she has compassion for her fellows and we share it through her POV.
Is this book a political allegory for a specific conflict? I mean, you could read it that way, but because I think it is a complex book I think it has more than one thing going on. It has beautiful use of symbolism and prophecy. The way it deploys its message is stunning not only for its radical nature but also for the way it lays bare the relationship between characters. I am still thinking about this book even after I finished it. It probably changed the way I think, a little bit. For that reason, I think it holds up.
July 24, 2021
I am almost to the end, giving no spoilers I hope. Karis G'deon is and is not acknowledged as such, but since (as you will remember from the first book) she put a stake through Mabin's heart she has authority over Mabin's company. Clement, the sub-general of the Sainites, who is way more civilized than the general, adopts a baby. The Sainites have to increase their ranks through adoption or kidnapping, because their discipline and habit does not allow female soldiers to sleep with male soldiers, although it permits both genders to sleep with whores. And the whores have babies, and often sell them.
With all this, you can see why the Sainite Children's Garrison is a big, big deal to them. Shaftali have a very different family structure, if you can call the Sainite relationship to children a family structure. Shaftali farms will have a number of people and people typically marry into another farm, and any number of people will be any child's father or mother. They are rather casual about who sleeps with whom, although I suppose they keep track of consanguinity. Paladins, the fighters, defend and are supplied by the farms. The Shaftali are very hospitable, but the Sainites severely interfere with their farming.
A splinter Paladine group bombs a Sainite garrison with what seems like napalm (a former Paladin had been a genius with munitions) and many Sainite soldiers die. In revenge they kidnap forty Shaftali children, and when the splinter group tries to rescue them massacre the splinter group. Karis G'deon, who speaks for the land, says that this will be the last violence in Shaftal, because when the Paladines fight back they become Sainite in spirit. This is a spoiler I know but if you are not enjoying the violence it gives you some hope. Karis G'deon speaks for the land. She is the ultimate authority. She has amazing powers of healing.
With all this, you can see why the Sainite Children's Garrison is a big, big deal to them. Shaftali have a very different family structure, if you can call the Sainite relationship to children a family structure. Shaftali farms will have a number of people and people typically marry into another farm, and any number of people will be any child's father or mother. They are rather casual about who sleeps with whom, although I suppose they keep track of consanguinity. Paladins, the fighters, defend and are supplied by the farms. The Shaftali are very hospitable, but the Sainites severely interfere with their farming.
A splinter Paladine group bombs a Sainite garrison with what seems like napalm (a former Paladin had been a genius with munitions) and many Sainite soldiers die. In revenge they kidnap forty Shaftali children, and when the splinter group tries to rescue them massacre the splinter group. Karis G'deon, who speaks for the land, says that this will be the last violence in Shaftal, because when the Paladines fight back they become Sainite in spirit. This is a spoiler I know but if you are not enjoying the violence it gives you some hope. Karis G'deon speaks for the land. She is the ultimate authority. She has amazing powers of healing.
March 28, 2020
It's taken me a long time to finish this, and I don't know if it's because I'm out of practice reading books on paper, or if it's that it's a ... well, it's a complex read. What I love about it also makes it somewhat impenetrable at times: it operates on a level of emotional nuance and subtlety that sometimes means you have to read conversations a few times over to figure out what's going on beneath the surface. You have to get to know the way the characters think, react and feel... just like in real life, a simple conversation is often much more than that, and the meaning each person takes away from it might differ. It's a slowly-unfolding read that builds and grows more like a plant than an action movie. There's never a moment that leaves you breathless, but there is a sense of going deeper and deeper into the story and its people, of coming to know them almost as old friends, of chewing on the larger political problems that they are trying to disentangle. Above all I love the coziness of the everyday scenes, the way this group of old friends becomes a family to each other, with all the give and take, all the frustration and caretaking that this implies. If Fire Logic was a love story at heart, this one may be a story of chosen family. And of course there are the larger questions of justice and reparations, of what is lost in war that cannot ever be made right, of how one cannot help but be changed even in fighting to remain oneself.
June 14, 2019
Set five years after Fire Logic, but very little has happened since the events of that time. That's part of the point of this book: it's about the pain of inaction, and how inaction can be the bravest course. We open with the four main characters of Fire Logic, Emil, Medric, Karis and Zanja, trying to figure out how they can end the wars in Shaftal and bring peace to their country. We're also introduced to Clement, a Lieutenant General of the invading Sainnite army. As in Fire Logic, Marks' characters are wonderful, and she has a great sense of place and creates believable and complex situations, dealing with trauma, loss, and hope. I loved the new character, Garland, a cook, and the way Marks writes about the importance of bodily sustenance and pleasure, whether it comes from food, physical affection, or nature. I also love the way she includes children and child-rearing in the story. So overal, there's a LOT I like here, but I was also frustrated by this book, because it feels over-long, and it lacks the tension and drive of Fire Logic. One of the major plot points () didn't really make sense to me, and I felt like a lot of this story ended up being an epilogue to Fire Logic rather than working as a narrative in its own right. That being said, I'll definitely look for more by this author.
November 18, 2017
Still liked this book but didn't enjoy it as much as the first.
I sort of understand Karis' inaction for most of this book, but only sort of, I don't fully understand why she just sat around and waited for so long before stepping up as the G'deon.
I know that there's fire logic and all that, but it was definitely a stretch that they went through with the whole ritual of killing Zanja mostly based on the card readings. When they first interpreted the cards this way, I thought to myself, no way are they going to take this seriously and go through with it, but to my surprise they did.
I still don't really understand why the steps that Norina took during the ritual (leaving one braid, saving her dagger, etc.) helped save Zanja from complete death either, and the part about where Zanja's soul was halfway between life and death while someone else was driving her body as a story teller is a mystery as well.
In the end, though, I'm glad that Karis finally stepped up as the G'deon and acted to bring about the type of future she wants for Shaftal. I'm assume the last book in the trilogy will be about our familiar characters tackling the difficulties of bringing about peace between the Shaftalians (?) and the Sainnites in the rest of the country, so I can't wait to read that and see the series to its end.
I sort of understand Karis' inaction for most of this book, but only sort of, I don't fully understand why she just sat around and waited for so long before stepping up as the G'deon.
I know that there's fire logic and all that, but it was definitely a stretch that they went through with the whole ritual of killing Zanja mostly based on the card readings. When they first interpreted the cards this way, I thought to myself, no way are they going to take this seriously and go through with it, but to my surprise they did.
I still don't really understand why the steps that Norina took during the ritual (leaving one braid, saving her dagger, etc.) helped save Zanja from complete death either, and the part about where Zanja's soul was halfway between life and death while someone else was driving her body as a story teller is a mystery as well.
In the end, though, I'm glad that Karis finally stepped up as the G'deon and acted to bring about the type of future she wants for Shaftal. I'm assume the last book in the trilogy will be about our familiar characters tackling the difficulties of bringing about peace between the Shaftalians (?) and the Sainnites in the rest of the country, so I can't wait to read that and see the series to its end.
June 22, 2019
I will preface this by saying that I love the Elemental Logic series for multiple reasons. I like how realistic the timelines are, and how a large cast of characters' lives interweave with one another. I'm also a sucker for symbolism.
My biggest gripe, though, is Laurie J Marks' overuse of "show, don't tell". While this concept is great, it only really works when character responses, emotions, symbolism, etc speak for itself. I found myself wishing Marks had explained a scene or a concept a little more, because I was constantly lost and unable to really grasp what was happening. Especially when it came to logic and magic.
I know that logic is supposed to be pretty mysterious and difficult to understand, especially fire logic. But if logic is going to be such a core part of Marks' story, and if logic is going to be a core part of all the symbolism, then the readers need to be able to understand it.
However, this really does give the book series re-read value. Once you've read enough to understand something, it really pays off to go back and finally see what it all meant.
My biggest gripe, though, is Laurie J Marks' overuse of "show, don't tell". While this concept is great, it only really works when character responses, emotions, symbolism, etc speak for itself. I found myself wishing Marks had explained a scene or a concept a little more, because I was constantly lost and unable to really grasp what was happening. Especially when it came to logic and magic.
I know that logic is supposed to be pretty mysterious and difficult to understand, especially fire logic. But if logic is going to be such a core part of Marks' story, and if logic is going to be a core part of all the symbolism, then the readers need to be able to understand it.
However, this really does give the book series re-read value. Once you've read enough to understand something, it really pays off to go back and finally see what it all meant.
July 8, 2024
This is a weird book. For most of it nothing really happens. And what happens is based entirely on the elemental logic of the series. Which is enigmatic at best and random at worst. Especially the plot around Koris and Zanya felt largely inexplicably random and thus incredibly frustrating. Karis literally doesn't do anything for most of the book, because of earth logic? Zanya, Medric and Emil do something outrageously incomprehensible, because of fire logic? The characters feel very strongly about what they need or don't need to do, yet as a reader the logic that leads them to their decisions completely eludes me.
A new Sainnaite POV character is introduced as well, who gives the story at least some characters with concrete motivations and goals not based upon some flimsy elemental logic. I also had a few gripes about the prose of the first book (it felt very disjointed), but the prose in this book was much easier to follow without changing the style completely.
A new Sainnaite POV character is introduced as well, who gives the story at least some characters with concrete motivations and goals not based upon some flimsy elemental logic. I also had a few gripes about the prose of the first book (it felt very disjointed), but the prose in this book was much easier to follow without changing the style completely.
August 8, 2019
Lots of hard journeys ending in relief. Some terrible acts for symbolic reasons: fire logic destiny and Sainnite dominance/honor. There's one that I still can't quite forgive. Even at the end of the book earth logic is pretty mysterious and super powerful.
The inaction that frustrates and binds Karis and Zanja at the beginning of the novel seemed opaque to me. After discussing it I can agree that Karis' refusal to take power was a strategy to wait for the right moment. Garland the cowardly cook is good company and a useful eye to see the core characters anew. The food/shelter/companionship found at the end of those uncomfortable treks feel earned and deeply satisfying.
The stories come so thick and fast that I lost track of the structure of the book. But it didn't matter, I loved it all.
The inaction that frustrates and binds Karis and Zanja at the beginning of the novel seemed opaque to me. After discussing it I can agree that Karis' refusal to take power was a strategy to wait for the right moment. Garland the cowardly cook is good company and a useful eye to see the core characters anew. The food/shelter/companionship found at the end of those uncomfortable treks feel earned and deeply satisfying.
The stories come so thick and fast that I lost track of the structure of the book. But it didn't matter, I loved it all.
September 17, 2020
Although I'm not sure that the magic of this book stood up to the first book in the series, I still absolutely adored it. Marks' prose and the world she's created here are intoxicating, and although there were moments in this one where I found it tough to keep track of all of the intricacies of plot and character, I still loved just about every minute of the reading experience. The blend of in-depth characterization, world-building and story-telling here is hard to beat, and I can't wait to read the next book in the series.
The one caveat: The reading experience here absolutely depends on the first book--this is a book that's meant to be read soon after the first one, and I imagine the next book will be the same, so I'd recommend interested readers plan on devouring the series all at once, book to book, rather than taking breaks from the world in between the books in the series.
The one caveat: The reading experience here absolutely depends on the first book--this is a book that's meant to be read soon after the first one, and I imagine the next book will be the same, so I'd recommend interested readers plan on devouring the series all at once, book to book, rather than taking breaks from the world in between the books in the series.
April 9, 2020
The first book gave a good foundation for the history and conflicts in this world. It was enjoyable but not gripping. This second was; however, really a delight for me.
Our main character who is at the heart of major events, a hinge of history, becomes a story teller for the invaders. Because of this, there are numerous delightful fables throughout the book. There's also interludes of mystical imagining when she dreams as she has lost her self in a split of identities.
This is very hopeful story with gentle humor, very kind relationships and admirable characters on both sides of a brutal subjection and cultural destructive conquest. It soon becomes obvious that there's plenty of blame and culpability for everyone in this long war.
Our main character who is at the heart of major events, a hinge of history, becomes a story teller for the invaders. Because of this, there are numerous delightful fables throughout the book. There's also interludes of mystical imagining when she dreams as she has lost her self in a split of identities.
This is very hopeful story with gentle humor, very kind relationships and admirable characters on both sides of a brutal subjection and cultural destructive conquest. It soon becomes obvious that there's plenty of blame and culpability for everyone in this long war.
June 13, 2019
This was a very hard book for me to read. While I found the prose to be quite good, I felt that there wasn’t much of a plot. That isn’t to say little happened. A lot happened, but I couldn’t tell where the story wanted to go. In the end, it all made sense, but the journey getting there was rather hard to follow. Nothing was really riveting. It’s the second book in the Elemental Logic series, the first being Fire Logic. Like its predecessor, the book won the Gaylactic Spectrum Award for positive LGBTQ images in genre lit.
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September 6, 2020
After the events of Fire Logic, the bonds between the main characters seem to have cemented. One of my favorite things about this one was seeing how the chosen-family dynamic of this group and their respective cultures were different from the nuclear family dynamic. We get to see a lot more of how the characters function as a group. In fact, I think what brings me back to this series IS the group dynamic. I can't pick out a character that I relate to/identify with/like the most -- it their relationships that I enjoy.
I was startled at the end of the book: Was it really all that simple?
What seems like a resolution is, as one of the new leads says, is just the beginning.
I was startled at the end of the book: Was it really all that simple?
What seems like a resolution is, as one of the new leads says, is just the beginning.
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