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Former good articleThe Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-day Saints was one of the good articles, but it has been removed from the list. There are suggestions below for improving the article to meet the good article criteria. Once these issues have been addressed, the article can be renominated. Editors may also seek a reassessment of the decision if they believe there was a mistake.
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October 17, 2006Good article reassessmentDelisted

Theology lacking in Infobox

I did a random search of religions (Catholicism, Lutheranism, Baptists). I noticed that for them each under the topic of 'Theology' in the infobox there is an extensive list of key doctrines. The only thing here is the simple term, 'nontrinitarian'. In fact that only identifies what LDS are not, as if their whole theology is to oppose Trinitarianism (and I still am of the opinion they are trinitarian). Perhaps this could be the next aim for improving the article. To start off consider the following key doctrines of their theology;

Modern Revelation
Atonement of Jesus Christ
a Godhead of three distinct beings
Priesthood restoration
Free Agency of all people
Universal nature of the family
Spiritual pre-existence of mankind

--Canadiandy talk 21:55, 16 July 2011 (UTC)[reply]

The reason is that Template:Infobox LDS Church seems to be based on Template:Infobox Christian denomination. That template provides a key for the parameter. The "Theology" parameter is defined as "theology = (main theology, i.e. Calvinism, Arminianism, Baptist, etc.)". So it is not designed as an all inclusive list. According to this definition, I'm not sure what the "main theology" of the LDS Church would be besides Mormonism or Restorationism. But you are right, "nontrinitarian" is inadequate. Those other templates that you cited were not designed to be denominational infoboxes but to be a "Part of a series on ..." template. The comparison isn't a good one. Now if you want to create a similar template, go for it.
Another question this brings up. Why does this page have its own Template:Infobox LDS Church when it is used exactly the same way as any other denomination? This makes it hard to change the infobox because the parameters are not available in edit mode. You have to first know that Template:Infobox LDS Church exists (which most people don't) and then go there to edit the infobox. Wouldn't it be simpler just to copy and paste the Template:Infobox Christian denomination format into the article and fill in the parameters that way? Ltwin (talk) 02:48, 17 July 2011 (UTC)[reply]
I don't have an answer to the latter question, but I agree as to the theology parameter. The LDS Church doesn't have a standard Christian theology or soteriology. So you could definitely say it is nontrinitarian, but the LDS Church is definitely not Calvinist and not quite Arminian, either. I don't think Canadiandy's suggestion is a good idea, because that list of doctrines (1) don't have Wikipedia articles per se, and (2) are not standard theological/soteriological categories and therefore are not helpful to the average reader without a great deal of further explanation. COGDEN 03:56, 17 July 2011 (UTC)[reply]
Good points Ltwin. @COgden, my list was meant for a starting point of discussion. I am confused by your position, COgden. Are you saying that since LDS doctrine is not documented enough here that it should only be summarized simplistically (and likely misleadingly)? Isn't this exactly what Wikipedia is designed to improve upon or change? I don't propose doing this overnight, merely the hope that this might be worked on. At Catholicism their theology includes Baptism, Salvation, Father, Son, and Holy Spirit (Ghost). These apply easily to Church theology. At Baptists we see the topic on Apostles, Crucifixion, Resurrection, Gospel, Old testament, New Testament, Jesus in Christianity, and Virgin Birth. If you wanted to we could start with these and then add on as we find sourced information for the more unique doctrines as I listed. So which would you see as the most key or most relevant to start with?
Baptism
Salvation
Gospel
Crucifixion
Resurrection
Father
Son
Holy Spirit
Old Testament
New Testament
Book of Mormon (there is an active page for this)

--Canadiandy talk 06:37, 17 July 2011 (UTC)[reply]

@Canadiandy1, non-trinitarian is not the same as anti-trinitarian. The idea that "their whole theology is to oppose Trinitarianism" is not found in such a word. If you want to define Mormon theology in an infobox, you have to put asterisks next to everything because almost for every item there is the idea that "this is just like Christianity, except for this bit". This is very much why I dislike the use of the word Christian when referencing Mormons, however, that is not consensus, and so I don't pursue it (any more). From your list above:
Baptism - not only for the living but the dead also
Salvation - the entire concept diverges from mainstream Christianity
Gospel - bunch of additional writings and prophets which add a lot of changed understandings and interpretations from mainstream Christianity
Crucifixion - Mormons don't even see this as 'the big deal', not as much as the garden
Resurrection - not exactly sure what Mormons think about this, but almost certain its unique
Father - used to be a man, became a God somehow
Son - literally born in a spiritual way, like a human is born, of the aforementioned Father via sex with Heavenly Mother
Holy Spirit - same as above sort of?
Not sure what you're wanting to do now, but could you explain it better? I'm just perplexed. -- Avanu (talk) 07:58, 17 July 2011 (UTC)[reply]
Forgive the slight deviation from the topic, but LDS belief about the resurrection is that 1) upon death, the soul separates from the body, and 2) everyone born in this world will eventually receive a resurrected body, generally meaning that the soul reunites with the body, which is mended or repaired or "perfected" in some way such that it is immune to all disability, sickness, and decomposition/ageing. In other words, the LDS believe in a literal physical resurrection, as they believe Jesus was physically resurrected and afterwards retained his resurrected body. See also this 2000 General Conference talk by LDS leader Dallin H Oakes, or the (shorter) LDS bible dictionary entry on Resurrection. ...comments? ~BFizz 22:08, 17 July 2011 (UTC)[reply]
You're right BFizz. The link to 'Resurrection' will, I believe, connect Mormons to the belief that while Jesus Christ was crucified, he rose and lived again.--Canadiandy talk 02:34, 18 July 2011 (UTC)[reply]
Note that in the case of Catholicism and Baptists, the infobox you see is Template:Christianity, which is also on this article right after the first infobox. For Lutheranism, it is Template:Lutheranism, which is comparable to Template:Latter-day Saints at the bottom of this article. If you look at the pages that link to Template:Infobox Christian denomination (the template you are referring to on this article), very few actually use the "theology" option at all. If we do want to use the "theology" parameter to categorize the LDS church, then its rather difficult to place LDS belief in categories without making up words: Theocorporealitarian (belief that God has a physical body), Premortalitarian (belief that human souls existed before life on Earth), Divinizationist (belief in theosis or exaltation), etc. ...comments? ~BFizz 21:50, 17 July 2011 (UTC)[reply]
Agreed, BFizz. It would be nice if the Church's infobox looked more like the 'Lutheranism' infobox. I have long ago resigned myself to the fact that even though we believe in Jesus Christ, named our church to reflect his divine role and ownership, and include his name somewhere in every ordinance or priesthood action and prayer; because we don't worship Christ the way many others do, we don't get to be called or referred to as Christian. Still I think we could do this without the complex jargon you suggested. For example, 'Godhead', 'Eternal Family', 'Baptism', 'The Bible', and even "Restored Apostolic Succession" could be linked in much the same way. Again, I don't expect this to be an easy task, but leaving the whole of Mormon theology as 'nontrinitarianist' is both shallow and misleading. Thanks for your insights.--Canadiandy talk 02:34, 18 July 2011 (UTC)[reply]
Isn't the way one worships an essential part of whether they are a Christian? After all, Jesus didn't say, 'worship however you like', and Mormons add a ton of rules, so I would think you would feel even more that way.
21Not every one that saith unto me, Lord, Lord, shall enter into the kingdom of heaven; but he that doeth the will of my Father which is in heaven.
22Many will say to me in that day, Lord, Lord, have we not prophesied in thy name? and in thy name have cast out devils? and in thy name done many wonderful works?
23And then will I profess unto them, I never knew you: depart from me, ye that work iniquity.
So lots of people will have thought they were following Christ, when they were not in fact. That includes people of every faith. Saying "We have Christ in our name" does absolutely nothing. It is our actions that make us followers of Christ, not the name we give ourselves. OK, rant over. -- Avanu (talk) 12:57, 18 July 2011 (UTC)[reply]


OK, my on-topic response now. Of the items you mention 'Godhead', 'Eternal Family', 'Baptism', 'Bible', 'Restored Apostolic Succession', only 'Eternal Family' and 'Restored Apostolic Succession' are unique concepts to Mormonism. The others 'Godhead', 'Baptism', and 'Bible' are just viewed differently by Mormons. So I'm not certain what those would link to, so that people would understand correctly what is meant. -- Avanu (talk) 13:01, 18 July 2011 (UTC)[reply]
Avanu. It seems like you feel you have a monopoly on Christianity. Yes Christ didn't say, "Worship however you like." But I also don't think he said "Don't send money to the Bakers." The Bible was not written by him, but by his followers. It was a spiritual record, not policy manual on Church protocols. As a result, one of the only constants in Christianity is that those who label themselves Christians are constantly disagreeing with each other. Consider the Irish situation, still. As my Dad (not a Mormon) says, "Jesus, save us from the Christians." Personally, I don't share his position. While I may disagree with a number of the ranging doctrines within some of the modern Christian sects, I see them for the great part as well-intended people who are doing the best they can with the knowledge they have, and who are a large force for good in this struggling world. As to Baptism and the Bible, we believe in both in a manner sufficiently common to allow linkage to the articles. Is the problem that we baptize by immersion? Many Baptists do, and I don't think you would call them unChristian. Regarding a link to the Bible, Joseph Smith wrote, "We believe the Bible to be the word of God." That we also believe in modern revelation and the Book of Mormon does not exclude us from a belief in the Bible. Respectfully, I sense a strong polemic bent in your rant and that is not helpful to the discussion. While I am a Mormon, when I discuss I try to view the Church as though I were not of the faith with an aim to fairness. I would (and have done) act with the same respect when commenting at the page on Luther or Catholicism. Even though I don't agree with their faiths I try to be fair and keep an open mind. Please, if we are to act in a Christian manner we need to act as the Good Samaritan and respect each others differences.--Canadiandy talk 15:57, 18 July 2011 (UTC)[reply]
As far as Baptism, it is the Baptism for the dead that I was specifically focused on. And to be completely accurate, the Greek word "baptidzo" means 'to immerse'. As far as a polemic bent, I have felt that very strongly from you in almost every interaction with you, though to be fair, it seems like you've been getting a lot better. I suppose since you brought up the "well, we have Christ in the name", I get specifically very tired of that logic, because its completely empty. There can be lots of very logical arguments made for Mormonism, but that isn't one of them. -- Avanu (talk) 16:10, 18 July 2011 (UTC)[reply]
I believe the term you are looking for is 'apologetic' not polemic. I think you are missing a very important context in your discussions here. This page is about The Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-day Saints. It is completely appropriate in a fair way to identify what members (or the collective of the Church) believe. It is fair to state, "Mormons believe in the divinity of Jesus Christ" or "Mormons identify themselves as Christian." On one end of the debate it is unfair to say Mormon doctrine is the only correct doctrine, but it is equally unfair to say, "Mormons are not Christians" or "Mormons do not believe in the Trinity" without at least qualifying it. That would be POV and contrary to Wikipedia guidelines. A reasonable qualification might look like, "While Mormon doctrine on Christ's nature differs from that of most traditional Christian faiths, Mormons see themselves as a Christian people." Or, "Mormons believe in the Trinity (God the Father, Jesus Christ, the Holy Spirit) differently than most other Christian sects in that they view their "Godhead" as being three distinct beings. What is frustrating is not in having my beliefs exposed to the world, it's when that is done inaccurately. I believe that in the meridian of time Jesus Christ was born of Mary. He taught in the temple, he healed the sick, he raised the dead, he was baptized of John. I believe he was cruelly crucified on a cross and that on the third day he was resurrected. I believe he atoned for my sins and the sins of all people. I believe that he is the only way people can receive salvation. We may differ in our belief on what color his robe will be when he returns, or whether he now has a tangible or only spiritual body, but it is offensive to have someone refer to my belief as being not Christian. I appreciate your POV. I would fight to protect your right to have it. But please don't let your Karma run over my dogma.--Canadiandy talk 20:41, 18 July 2011 (UTC)[reply]
Its easy to sound similar when all you mention are the similarities. Mud, Gravy, and Milk can sound like the same thing if all you do is mention that they're liquid. We don't believe in the same Christ, in the same nature of that Christ, much as you would like to say otherwise. For some reason it seems like you feel my personal opinions somehow relate to what we put in the article. I've seen the bias that you have and you've seen mine. The real point is whether this can be put aside to write a reasonable article. Your initial comments were not nearly as even-handed as your current ones seem to be, so maybe you're just learning the way Wikipedia works. But regardless, if someone makes an illogical argument, I don't expect to have to support it. -- Avanu (talk) 21:34, 18 July 2011 (UTC)[reply]
Avanu has a good point that we need to be careful about using standard Christian terminology to refer to Mormon concepts on Wikipedia. We need to think about how the average reader will interpret what is being written. In something like an infobox, where you don't have much room for explanations and caveats, we just have to be especially careful not to imply that Mormons teach standard Protestant or Catholic theology, when that is not the case. COGDEN 01:05, 19 July 2011 (UTC)[reply]
@ Avanu, I re-read my initial comments. Can you explain how they were not even-handed? @COgden. My first position was to include links that were more unique to Church theology (though I don't know why we need to distance Mormons from more orthodox Christian theology because of subtle differences). Are you supporting my initial post where I suggested we include the following doctrines?;
Modern Revelation
Atonement of Jesus Christ
a Godhead of three distinct beings
Priesthood restoration
Free Agency of all people
Universal nature of the family
Spiritual pre-existence of mankind

--Canadiandy talk 15:38, 19 July 2011 (UTC)[reply]

I think you need to look a little further back in time for what I meant by "initial comments". Right out of the gate you started by telling us how insensitive the wording was to Mormons because of words like 'Mormon' and 'Latter Day Saint movement'. But back on topic... the infobox will have a ton of text if we include all the various ways it is unlike mainstream Christianity. Despite the idea that many Mormons have that says "Mormonism is indistinguishable from Christianity", the only way that is a true statement is if you say Mormonism is the only Christianity (aka ... redefine Christianity). And many people do not believe it is Christianity at all. -- Avanu (talk) 16:07, 19 July 2011 (UTC)[reply]
I have faith in the group's ability to identify a small core of prominent theological doctrines. And I don't think the doctrines have to be strictly unique or strictly orthodox either. The goal here is not to prove Mormons are Christians, but it also isn't to prove they are not. It is simply to lay out for readers what the theology is (not what it is not). So with a little taxonomy (Top to bottom), perhaps;
Godhead (three distinct beings)
Atonement of Jesus Christ
Restored Priesthood
Modern Revelation
Scriptures (Book of Mormon, KJV Bible)
Eternal Families
Free Agency

This seems to hold a nice balance of key doctrines which are both unique (Godhead, restored Priesthood, Book of Mormon, eternal families) to the Church and common throughout Christianity (Atonement, KJV Bible, individual agency). I see this as an important improvement, but if others here feel the article is better with the simple summary 'nontrinitarian' I'll let it go. In making your decision please ask this question. If you were to ask an average Mormon to summarize her beliefs, what is the likelihood she would say, "Oh, that's easy, one word, nontrinitarian"?--Canadiandy talk 18:50, 19 July 2011 (UTC)[reply]

Here are my thoughts:
Godhead
The problem is that term mean something completely different to trinitarians than to Mormons. To most Christians, godhead means the nature or quality of God, which includes all the usual aspects of trinitarianism.
Atonement
This is one area where perhaps Mormon soteriology is relatively mainstream, but it doesn't tell you much to say that Mormons believe in atonement, because even Jews believe in atonement. More precise would be to say that the Mormon belief in the atonement falls somewhere between Calvinistic penal substitution and the Arminian governmental theory of atonement. The only problem is, I haven't seen a source yet that says that explicitly. So using that in an infobox without a citation is problematic. Plus, Mormon doctrine isn't simply one or the other. I guess you could just generalize and refer to the generic substitutionary atonement. But still, we need a source.
Restored priesthood
I think that Mormon views on both restoration and priesthood are unique within Christianity. The Mormon priesthood, for example, is not simply membership in a body of priests or believers, but is rather a more mystical power sort of like gifts of the spirit. So I think "restored priesthood" is Mormon jargon that an outsider doesn't necessarily understand. A better term might be restorationism or Christian primitivism.
Modern revelation
There is a (not very good) article entitled continuous revelation, and I think the term is commonly understood. So "continuous revelation" might be a candidate for an infobox.
Scriptures
We aren't really saying much to say that the LDS Church believes in scriptures. Anyway, this kind of falls under the continuous revelation category.
Eternal families
Again, I don't think we can just include this Mormon jargon without an explanation. I don't think the average reader understands what this is referring to.
Free agency
Saying that Mormons believe in free agency doesn't say much. Even Calvinists believe in free agency.
COGDEN 00:25, 20 July 2011 (UTC)[reply]
First, thanks for your helpful input, COgden. I have no problem dropping the last two (Eternal Families, Free Agency). And I agree that the term 'Godhead' needs a qualifier (i.e. 'Godhead' (composed of three separate and distinct beings)). I would be fine also with "substitutionary atonement" though it would be nice to see the name Christ in there as in "Christ's substitutionary atonement". And 'restorationist' would be fine. How about;
A Godhead composed of three separate and distinct beings.
Substitutionary atonement through Jesus Christ
Restorationist
Continuous revelation
I know there is still lots to be done, but how is this for a start?--Canadiandy talk 04:06, 20 July 2011 (UTC)[reply]
So, after all of that we see 'nontrinitarian' and 'restorationist' as two of the terms, and 'substitutionary atonement', which isn't a unique Mormon concept, as well as 'continuous revelation', which isn't really a good description of how Mormons feel either.
As far as 'revelation', Mormon prophets have uniquely said that the living prophet is superior to the written canon, because he's present now, I assume. And relating to atonement, Mormons believe that the atonement started in the Garden of Gethsemane because he sweated blood, not necessarily on the cross. In fact, the image of the cross is often rejected as a Christian symbol by many Mormons.
So, again the question goes back to, how much text do you want to fill the infobox with in trying to explain these concepts? -- Avanu (talk) 04:55, 20 July 2011 (UTC)[reply]
@ Avanu. To answer your concerns;
So, after all of that we see 'nontrinitarian' and 'restorationist' as two of the terms...
Actually, nontrinitarian isn't there at all
and 'substitutionary atonement', which isn't a unique Mormon concept
Who said it had to be unique?
as well as 'continuous revelation', which isn't really a good description of how Mormons feel either.
actually it is a very good description of how Mormons feel.
As far as 'revelation', Mormon prophets have uniquely said that the living prophet is superior to the written canon, because he's present now, I assume.
I don't see your point here, there is no link to the Bible or Book of Mormon so your point seems moot
And relating to atonement, Mormons believe that the atonement started in the Garden of Gethsemane because he sweated blood, not necessarily on the cross. In fact, the image of the cross is often rejected as a Christian symbol by many Mormons.
First, the image of the cross is not rejected by Mormons, only its iconic use. We respect the motivation by which others use it, but find its display unnecessary. Second, Mormons believe Christ atoned for the sins of all on the cross. Whether they believe the atonement began in the Garden or not does not exclude our belief in the atonement. Denying Mormons that theology is tantamount to saying that because Catholics baptize by anointing or sprinkling rather than by immersion they do not believe in baptism. And would that make them not Christian? Your rationale here seems to be POV and not WP guidelines. Avanu, I do not expect you to have a deep knowledge of the complex theology of the Church. I hope my response does not come across as an attack, I merely wanted to address each of your concerns.--Canadiandy talk 15:59, 20 July 2011 (UTC)[reply]
@Andy, "I do not expect you to have a deep knowledge of the complex theology of the Church", from what I can tell you don't seem to have that either. The responses you gave to my comment weren't really addressing what I said. Maybe I could have worded it better, but I think you just prefer to see things a certain way. "continuous revelation" is a belief somewhat held by mainstream Christians, but in a hugely different way than Mormons. That's why I mentioned the beliefs about the superiority of the revelation TODAY (versus previous) and the living prophet held by LDS. Also, mainstream Christians do not see anything more than a prayer happening in Gethsemane, yet Mormons somehow manage to see this blood-shedding act of atonement happening there. Again, VERY different. And, like it or not, 'nontrinitarian' is there because you said "A Godhead composed of three separate and distinct beings." I could go on, but it really aggravates me trying to discuss this with you because you do a thing that some Mormons do where you will not accept definitions as they are. We can't have a real conversation because you don't accept words as they are commonly defined, but as you want them to be defined. And my frustration with this aspect of things biases me to otherwise good changes that you might propose because I'm on guard to see if this is the twisting of words, or just words. -- Avanu (talk) 19:02, 21 July 2011 (UTC)[reply]
It's an issue that anyone familiar with the interplay between Mormonism and traditional Christian theology is aware of. The two sides use the same terminology, but the underlying theological framework is often quite different. I don't think this is necessarily an intentional deception on the part of Mormons--it's just that most Mormon scripture was written at a time when Mormonism was decidedly more Protestant, yet the things that make Mormonism distinct are grafted within that original Protestant linguistic framework. Since the development of Mormon theology in the 1840s, Mormonism has been evolving for over a century and a half with almost no theological engagement with the outside Christian world. There are presently a few Mormons scholars trying to re-connect and re-situate Mormon theology within the language of mainstream Christianity, but most Mormons are not aware of those efforts, and are about as familiar with traditional Christian theology as most traditional Christians are familiar with Mormon theology. COGDEN 19:46, 22 July 2011 (UTC)[reply]
A fair assessment COgden. I'm interested in your read on my last proposal. I think it matches some of your leanings and looks to be fair and as short as one might want.--Canadiandy (talk) 02:51, 27 July 2011 (UTC)[reply]
Because of the nature of infoboxes, I don't think there is enough room to put more than perhaps two classifications there for theology. Modern Mormonism doesn't exactly fit within any widely-understood category of Christianity except that it is Christian primitivist and nontrinitarian. But the Christian primitivist part is already implied by mention of the Latter Day Saint movement in the infobox, given that the Latter Day Saint movement is a type of primitivism. So I can't think of a change that's better than the status quo. COGDEN 18:45, 27 July 2011 (UTC)[reply]
I have to say I'm shocked and extremely disapponted you see it that way COgden. First, given the lengthy size of other infoboxes at religious articles, I don't see why a few accurate descriptors would be a problem. Secondly, the logic that because the Church doesn't fit hole 'X' means you can't define it as being 'Y' (even if 'Y' has to be explained, isn't informing people WPs main purpose?) seems to be limited and narrow. Finally, your point about "widely-understood categories" is quite inaccurate. If you mean "understood well by the 27 people at WP who follow these articles with encyclopedic interest," I agree. But if you were to poll 1000 random people (even academics) and asked them what a primitivist nontrintarian religion might look like, I doubt you would find 10 who would understand that terminology or jargon. I am not saying we dumb down the article, but it shouldn't be so jargonistic as to mislead or confuse. But if you are so keen on seeing the status quo (which uses one key theological determiner which is both inaccurate, unfamiliar, and a term which seems unsourced and is possibly even original research snuck through the articles here), then fill your boots. I see this is a losing battle and I have better things to do. At least I tried. This one's all yours too. You sure know your research, but, sadly, I really question your logic. In closing, I wonder how Joseph Smith would feel knowing the 13 Articles of Faith had been reduced to the simple sentence, "We do not believe in the Trinity"? --Canadiandy talk 07:48, 28 July 2011 (UTC)[reply]
I don't think this particular infobox is necessarily designed to encapsulate every important point about the religion, or to be a replacement for a Mormon creed such as the 1840 articles of faith. I don't think any infobox could do that. The infoboxes are mainly used to classify the religion and list certain pertinent facts. The infobox is not an appropriate place to explain anything that needs explaining. If it can't be described in one or two words, it doesn't belong there. In fact, there really is no particular reason the infobox has to say anything about the religion's theology. All I'm saying is that if the infobox mentions LDS theology, about the only thing you could say about that that will fit in the infobox is that it is nontrinitarian. COGDEN 08:11, 28 July 2011 (UTC)[reply]
COgden. You wrote, "If it can't be described in one or two words then it doesn't belong there." Actually, the infobox for Lutheranism has so many terms it is collapsible. It includes;
Justification
Law and Gospel
Sola gratia
Sola scriptura
Christology
Sanctification
Two Kingdoms
Priesthood of all believers
Divine Providence
Marian theology
Theology of the Cross
Sacramental Union
And nowhere in there does it focus on what Lutheranism is not. They get twelve determiners, the Church of Jesus Christ (LDS) gets one and it is an confusing and elitist negative. Is there a senior editor out there willing to weigh in on this one? I call bias. I don't see how this could be anything but. And no, COgden, I am not accusing you of bias, just the article. As you said, "I don't think this particular infobox is necessarily designed to encapsulate every important point about the religion." Well given the entire Mormon theology is summed up in one sketchy word I have to agree there. I just think it could try to encapsulate a few (I proposed 4) important points. That would still only be 1/3 of what the Lutheranism page includes. A senior unbiased editor, please?--Canadiandy talk 04:32, 29 July 2011 (UTC)[reply]
Honestly, you just make me grit my teeth a bit, Andy. You say stuff like "confusing and elitist negative" but unless you study religion all the time, most of the terms off the Lutheran list are confusing too. You say crappy stuff like "I call bias", when in reality the editors on the whole here are just trying to keep the article on target. You just seem to have a knack for being a bit grrrrr-inducing. If I had the impression that your changes were really about educating people, I probably wouldn't feel this way, but every change you propose seems like it is either designed to introduce bias or 'combat' the perceived bias you feel. Maybe nontrinitarian isn't sufficient, but my goodness can you maybe just try to stop looking at this as a contest for pushing your view onto the article and look at it as a teaching tool that might be able to be improved? -- Avanu (talk) 04:57, 29 July 2011 (UTC)[reply]
Avanu, you wrote, "most of the terms off the Lutheran list are confusing too." Well it would be expected as they are terms which reflect their unique beliefs. And for the most part they are terms originating from that faith. But they are at least terms which force the reader to delve deeper to understand them, whereas 'nontrinitarian' is likely to make people think that Mormons do not believe in the Father, Son, and Holy Ghost and so they will likely come away with an erroneous understanding of what Mormons believe. And on top of that it is a term which is almost completely foreign inside the LDS faith. It is offensively condescending to have academics try and dictate (and create jargon for)what we believe in (or don't) especially when they are at best confusing the matter in doing so. And if you read my comments carefully I did not call bias on any editor, merely the article. As to your discomfort with my discussion here, I'm sorry, but like Martin Luther, I would be untrue to myself and others if I just crawled into a bunker and didn't say anything. I've tried to be tolerant of your beliefs and apologize if things got heated, but clearly you are on a side of the argument which is antagonistic towards Mormon theology and so perhaps this is the wrong page for you of you are looking for a comfortable debate.--Canadiandy talk 05:21, 29 July 2011 (UTC)[reply]

As usual, you miss the point entirely. I'm not irritated by someone wanting to improve the article. I'm irritated that its simply about you claiming bias with almost every single post you make. And now, you claim it on me. I think for most of the editors, what nontrinitarian means is clear. Like COGDEN tried to explain to you, when 95% of Christianity *is* Trinitarian, this is a quick shortcut to say, 'hey, these folks are different in this area'. It might not explain perfectly, but it does explain it very well for a single word. I'll repeat it again... your approach with the constant bias gets old, and it would be a lot nicer if you could simply focus on *improvement* more than being some bias-fighter. I'm already sure you'll misunderstand me, but I am trying to explain to you why I think you're not getting further with this. -- Avanu (talk) 05:32, 29 July 2011 (UTC)[reply]

Canadiandy, I don't think the Lutheranism article uses a different type of collapsible infobox that allows them to present more information. That doesn't help us use the infobox we have now, which has room for just one or two terms in the theology area. Another difference is that their infobox is designed to hold links to related articles, not to provide a concise list of facts about the religion. The Lutheranism article does not need to provide such concise facts, because Lutheranism is a denomination, not a specific church, unlike this article.
But maybe all the above discussion doesn't matter. I just had another thought: Really, the best description of the theology of the LDS Church is simply the term Mormonism. Why don't we just use that word, rather than nontrinitarian, and link to the Mormonism article? Mormonism is, after all, a specific variety of nontrinitarianism. Better to be as specific as possible. COGDEN 08:48, 29 July 2011 (UTC)[reply]
I've added Mormonist to the infobox, but I'm unsure whether it should be Mormonist, Mormonistic, Mormonism... etc? -- Avanu (talk) 13:33, 29 July 2011 (UTC)[reply]
I have very little to say about the whole discussion, only that I think Mormonism would probably be better than Mormonist. I'm ok with leaving the nontrinitarian there too, but don't have any strong feelings either way. In my limited experience, COgden is probably the most "senior unbiased editor" in the room, so if he recommends something else, I'll likely be fine with that too. -- Adjwilley (talk) 21:25, 29 July 2011 (UTC)[reply]
I love the term Mormonist, and I wish it would catch on, but the standard word is Mormon, which doesn't make sense. (You don't call an advocate of Methodism a "Method".) Plus, not all Mormons (e.g., cultural Mormons) believe in Mormonism. So I would put Mormonism in the infobox. As to keeping "nontrinitarian" there also, I don't really have a strong opinion on that, either. Both are correct: one is more general and one is more specific. COGDEN 23:04, 29 July 2011 (UTC)[reply]
However, there are several examples in line with "Mormonism -> Mormon", for example, "Catholicism -> Catholic", "Hinduism -> Hindu", "Protestantism -> Protestant". ...comments? ~BFizz 06:04, 30 July 2011 (UTC)[reply]
This little tangent has made me smile more than once today. So what is the religion of a Southern Baptist? Southern Baptism? :-) -- Adjwilley (talk) 22:11, 30 July 2011 (UTC)[reply]
COgden, I am good with the link to Mormonism. Finally we have some actual connection to what the Church's theology is (not what it isn't). As long as we can get rid of the confusing reference to 'nontrinitarianism' I would be very comfortable with the change. However if 'nontrinitarianism' stays I am of the opinion it is actually an even bigger problem (i.e., the theology of the Church of Jesus Christ is that they are nontrinitarian Mormons). On the issue of 'Mormonism' v. 'Mormonist', I personally don't like either, but especially not 'Mormonist.' And not just because it was coined by Avanu. The label 'Mormon' is originally a term coined by opponents of the early Saints. Not only do both terms connect to this negative history, but 'Mormonist' grammatically alludes to the idea that a 'Mormonist' is one who follows Mormons or the Prophet Mormon. Weird terminology. Mormonism is only a step up because of common global usage and so I will be comfortable with it for now. Thanks for your help here COgden.--Canadiandy talk 06:27, 31 July 2011 (UTC)[reply]
Andy, you've been told over and over that nontrinitarian isn't a 'slight' or 'attack' or confusing, but for some reason, you're pushing an agenda here. If you look at Template:Christianity, you have the following:
{{Christian denominations |expand-catholic={{{expand-catholic|}}} |expand-eastern={{{expand-eastern|}}} |expand-protestant={{{expand-protestant|}}} |expand-nontrinitarian={{{expand-nontrinitarian|}}}}}
Notice that there are just 4 general divisions, because for 99% of Christianity, this is how it shakes out.
We're here not just to serve people in the LDS, but people who have no connection to it as well. I didn't coin Mormonist, I just looked at what the infobox was asking for and came up with a term that seemed to match. If you do a Google search, it is easy to see many references to this word. The idea that people name a religious movement after a significant person is hardly new. Calvinists, Lutherans, Millerites, Mennonites, etc. I just don't understand why you have to be so partisan in this. When the LDS Church is running ads saying "and I'm a Mormon", your quaint attachment to the idea that its an insult just make no sense. Almost every post you make, you have to complain how this article isn't favorable enough for your own religion. While I can understand such a rationale, I doubt it would be well-received if I constantly pushed for a mainstream Christian POV in this article. We're supposed to be striving for an article that is balanced, and I think 99% of people with any understanding of Christianity know what nontrinitarian means.
I think everyone has tried to patiently explain this all to you and I don't know why you seem to just push for non-standard interpretations in an article that is for a general audience. One of the things that annoyed me when I initially dealt with Mormons is that a large number of terms that a Christian uses are redefined by Mormons. So when you try to have a conversation about something it gets very muddled because of the fact that you're really speaking two different languages but the words are the same.
Anyway, I feel like you're just being stubborn, and I feel that you're being very partisan in this, and if this is the case, I wish you would stop. -- Avanu (talk) 14:12, 31 July 2011 (UTC)[reply]
On another tangent, I've touched Template:Christianity a couple times in the past, specifically I've helped fix the "expand" parameters when they somehow got broken. I had a feeling it might get brought up here. I've had it in the back of my mind to take this discussion to the template talk page, but I've always been afraid of the tiresome slugfest that would inevitably ensue. Frankly, the "Nontrinitarian" distinction doesn't make sense. Either you're "Western", or "Eastern", or "Protestant", sure. Those distinctions have been made historically for centuries, especially given the East-West schism, and the Protestant reformation, which generally make it fairly clear who fits in where. But "Nontrinitarian" seems to be the label chosen to mean "Other churches that don't fit in with the other three large branches". I find it strange that all Christian groups that don't seem to fit in with "Eastern", "Western", or "Protestant" (historical branches) supposedly all fit nicely into "Nontrinitarian" (a doctrinal, rather than historical, distinction). ...comments? ~BFizz 11:33, 1 August 2011 (UTC)[reply]
If you weren't part of the old Holy Roman Catholic Church before the Schism, you were called a heretic. After the Schism, you were Catholic or Orthodox, or a heretic. After the Reformation, you were either a Protestant, Catholic, or Orthodox, or guess what... a heretic. We're not calling people heretics so often anymore, but if you don't fit in Protestant, Catholic, or Orthodox, or even 'Restoration', what else is there to easily 'label' people? We could simply leave off labels and let people read and figure out what to call Mormons on their own. Personally, I don't think nontrinitarian is a problem. Its like nonfat or nonpartisan, we aren't confused by such terms. We know what the milk is, if it is nonfat, or what the debate is, if its nonpartisan, so the idea that nontrinitarian is so unbelieveably confusing seems to me to just be a straw man here. Trinity clearly talks about the essential nature of God and it refers not to the number of entities, but the fact that these 3 entities are ONE essence. Super clear to 95% of Christians. -- Avanu (talk) 12:58, 1 August 2011 (UTC)[reply]
"Heretical" would probably be a better categorization, but obviously unusable for our purposes at Wikipedia, due to its negative connotations. ...comments? ~BFizz 15:32, 1 August 2011 (UTC)[reply]
Andy, I think you should compromise a bit on this one. Nontrinitarian has been removed from the lead, and Mormonism has been added to the infobox. Time to give a little. That said, I think it might be a good idea to put nontrinitarian and Mormonism on separate lines with nontrinitarian first (so it doesn't look like it's a nontrinitarian branch of Mormonism). Example:
Theology: Nontrinitarian
Mormonism
I've never formatted infoboxes before. Can this be done? -- Adjwilley (talk) 15:53, 31 July 2011 (UTC)[reply]
I've made that change. -- Avanu (talk) 16:02, 31 July 2011 (UTC)[reply]
Okay, Avanu. Our discussions here will now end. I tried to be courteous and respect your points but the attacks and off topic accusations are over the top. I'm not feeding the troll any more.--Canadiandy talk 21:16, 31 July 2011 (UTC)[reply]
You're someone who we can't please, Andy. You see nearly everything as an attack, even the word Mormon. You edit almost exclusively within articles that are related to Mormonism, and edit with a goal toward influencing the POV toward what you consider favorable. So what can be done? If I actually saw a reasonable argument made about why nontrinitarian would be confusing to the average reader, I would immediately be in favor of changing it out for a better term. But nontrinitarian is very clear and not at all misleading, except to you. The argument that adding 'Mormonism' would help was decent, so it got added, but the problem with adding terms in the Infobox is that they need to be compatible with the larger understanding, and Mormonism has a different language for things that the mainstream, so while I think your point about it being lacking is decent, there's not a lot we can add there without beginning to mislead people. If you feel attacked here, maybe you could broaden your range of topics (ie edit non-Mormon articles) and get some perspective, but I'm certainly not 'trolling' you, I'm simply willing to see a broader point of view here. -- Avanu (talk) 21:56, 31 July 2011 (UTC)[reply]
I had a chance to speak with a Mormon friend of mine. He is a bit of a smart alec at times, so it was hard to tell how serious he was being, but he said, depending on how you decide to look at it, Mormons could easily be called Monotheistic, *OR* Polytheistic, and he was really not a big help with this stuff after I asked him to look at the debate on this page. He said things like 'tyranny of the majority' a few times, and essentially we kind of went around and around with him both respecting and simultaneously challenging whether the larger community should be defining terms for the 'whole'. For example, are the largely atheistic Unitarian Universalists a Christian group (they do believe in Jesus, sort of), how would they view the debate on Trinitarianism, etc. Generally I think my friend was just being a pain, because he enjoys it at times, but I guess for us in Wikipedia, we simply need to look at what our sources say... maybe a compromise for Canadiandy1 might be to simply put "Not Trinitarian" in the infobox? -- Avanu (talk) 00:54, 6 August 2011 (UTC)[reply]
  • This is not the place to debate religious views. However specifically on the LDS Church and how it views Christ's suffering on the cross this is a relevant quote from www.mormon.org "Before He was crucified, Jesus prayed to God in the Garden of Gethsemane on our behalf. Christ's suffering for our sins in Gethsemane and on the cross at Calvary is called the Atonement." While this probably does put Mormons emphasizing the suffering on the cross less than other Christians, it certainly shows a belief that the suffering on the cross was neccesary to complete the payment of sins.John Pack Lambert (talk) 06:53, 8 December 2011 (UTC)[reply]

There is no "Mormon Church", only Mormon people (conference talk).

For your interest, here are my notes on a talk by Elder M. Russell Ballard this morning. "The importance of a name" Your good name is important—it is also true among the religions of the world. D&C 115 “For thus shall my Church be called.” Take upon you the name of Christ. The full name of the church is important. It may be long but describes what it is. Every word is important. Simply and humbly declare we are His disciples. The nickname ‘Christian’ was a distraction with the early church. We continue to use the full name and discourage “Mormon Church” unless explained. It is practical to call our collective people Mormons, such as in Mormon.org but should not keep members from using the full name of the Church, whenever possible. Feb 21 2001 letter from the First Presidency mentioned this. In 1948, the prophet said to remember that by divine commandment, only one church on the earth today bears his divine name.

http://www.ldschurchnews.com/articles/61533/Elder-M-Russell-Ballard-The-Importance-of-a-Name.html
This is the link. (Cf other conference talks.) Hope This Helps .!. Charles Edwin Shipp (talk) 19:23, 2 October 2011 (UTC)[reply]

The article already mentions that LDS leaders have discouraged the use of the name "Mormon Church". Regardless of what the Church's leaders do or don't want, however, the article needs to acknowledge (in a neutral fashion) the existence and widespread use of this name because an abundance of reliable sources confirm that it is commonly used. — Richwales (talk) 21:34, 11 December 2011 (UTC)[reply]

Not really Christian...

"Several doctrines and practices of the LDS Church are unique within Christianity. The Mormon cosmology and plan of salvation include the doctrines of pre-mortal life, three degrees of heaven, and exaltation. According to these doctrines every human spirit is a literal spirit child of God, and humans may achieve exaltation, which means that they may become gods and goddesses just as Jesus Christ is a God." This is a direct quote from the Article. By the way, the Archived Discussion was focused not so much on this as on whether they believe in the Bible and whether they deny polygyny.

I'd like to draw attention not to polygyny, but to polytheism. Christians believe in only 1 God, period. Not only can humans not become gods of other universes, but in fact contrary to popular belief Christianity teaches that humans can not become Angels let alone lesser gods of some sort. A human who has reached Paradise is a Saint, not an Angel. Angels are entirely acorporal non-human souls that God created before he made us.

Now, let's contrast this to Mormonism where humans are given the ability to become other gods (and goddesses for that matter) of other universes younger than our own (created when that person achieves divinity). The fact is that Mormons are not Christians (even if they say they are, they're basically pretending) because they reject the core-most Doctrines of the Faith. The Article should either acknowledge this by calling them non-Christians (saying "Although the name of the church includes 'of Jesus Christ,' it is a non-Christian church and an entirely separate religion" and explaining further from there), or it could call them heretical Christians/heretics. The latter is an older term that has been out of fashion since the Enlightenment if not the Renaissance, so I would frankly suggest the former. The Mysterious El Willstro (talk) 09:56, 11 December 2011 (UTC)[reply]

I understand your concern, many christian sects have many different beliefs from one another. Following the wikipedia article on christian, I think simply following the basic teachings of Christ and the new testament (the Gospels in particular), to be the only important test. If you have any actual new sources that can add to the article that would help, but we can't simply edit an encyclopedia based on someones personal belief. Boccobrock•T•C 18:34, 11 December 2011 (UTC)[reply]
The definition of Christianity as the religion founded and taught by Jesus Christ is not my personal belief. It's an ancient and universal definition.
Now, the issue with the Mormon belief that humans can become gods, and why they shouldn't be called Christians, is precisely that Jesus Christ taught monotheism. My source is Matthew 22:37-39. "Love God the Father Almighty with all your heart, soul, and mind, and worship only him. The second [commandment] is like it: You shall love your neighbor as yourself."
Basically all Christians would call Mormons a separate religion, which means calling them Christians on Wiki, against the common wisdom, is simply a bias in favor of Mormon claims. The Mysterious El Willstro (talk) 20:02, 11 December 2011 (UTC)[reply]
But is the common wisdom that they are a separate religion? Do the majority of scholarly reliable sources assert that it's not under the umbrella of Christianity? That's what will need to be demonstrated to remove it from the introduction—or at least to put it behind a phrasing like "they consider themselves Christian, but most scholars consider…" —C.Fred (talk) 20:15, 11 December 2011 (UTC)[reply]
User:The Mysterious El Willstro is rehashing the same tired old argument that's already been settled by community consensus. The majority of peer-reviewed reliable sources agree that Latter-day Saints are Christians as the term applies to religious groups. If you take issue with that (as a number of modern evangelical Christians do), you'll just have to deal with it. The criticisms of the Latter-day Saints by evangelical and other Christian groups are, I think, mentioned quite fairly in the article as it is.  White Whirlwind  咨  20:46, 11 December 2011 (UTC)[reply]
This article was written by a man with a Ph. D. on this very topic, and is therefore scholarly: [1]. There are doctrines that all actual Christians (Roman, Eastern Orthodox, and Coptic Catholics, as well as Reformed Christians alike) affirm, and Mormons reject. Foremost among these are Monotheism, Holy Trinity and Dual Nature of Jesus Christ. Again, that source has a scholarly author! He himself is a Baptist, but he cites Roman Catholic and otherwise Christian theologians as some of his own sources. The Mysterious El Willstro (talk) 05:50, 18 December 2011 (UTC)[reply]
Albert Mohler's doctorate is from the Southern Baptist Theological Seminary — an institution affiliated with the Southern Baptist Convention — so the fact that he has this degree does not in and of itself make his writings impartial. The LDS Church article already clearly indicates that "LDS doctrines regarding the nature of God and the potential of mankind differ significantly from mainstream Christianity", and that "Many have accused the LDS Church of not being a Christian church at all" because of these differences, and this ought to be sufficient for our purposes here. A more detailed, comprehensive treatment of what properly comprises Christianity can and should appear in the separate article on that subject, as well as in the article on the Divinity of Jesus — which articles present the subject as much more complex than Mohler would appear to put it. — Richwales (talk) 07:14, 18 December 2011 (UTC)[reply]
In the end, each denomination decides for itself if it is Christian. Charles Edwin Shipp (talk) 11:13, 18 December 2011 (UTC)[reply]

As somebody who happens to be LDS, I'm fine with somebody claiming that Mormonism is not Christian.... but that is something which is in the eye of the beholder. BTW, the "scholarly publication" above is hardly scholarly as it is really more of a blog posting and hardly fits the definition of a reliable source, dismissing any sort of further appeal to logic or understanding. None the less, the view that Mormonism in and of itself (or the LDS Movement for the purists) is not part of mainstream Christianity is something I have embraced so far as that I don't mind distancing myself from the Crusades, IRA bombings, The Holocaust, and other dismal failures of Christianity over the centuries. Yes, I know there are "sins of the past" in LDS history too, so it isn't completely without blame, but by far and away Christians have missed the message of Jesus Christ far too often as well while professing loyalty to him and acting in his name.

Rolling this back into a discussion of this article rather than turning this into a forum about the non-Chritian nature of the LDS Church, I fail to see what relevance this really has in terms of article development. The section Comparisons with mainstream Christianity deals with this topic along with Mormonism and Christianity as a whole article to deal with this subject. If there is something to be said and a reliable source with something genuinely NPOV to add to this discussion, I would suggest bringing it up on Talk:Mormonism and Christianity and end this discussion properly. Talk pages should not be a forum for general discussion of a topic, although some minor latitude might be permitted if you are trying to legitimate add content to improve the quality of the article. Wilstro needs to let this issue die a good death unless something legitimate needs to be raised here regarding this article. --Robert Horning (talk) 04:23, 23 December 2011 (UTC)[reply]

Mormon people and LDS Church support of initiative to block gay marriage

Requesting topic ban on all Mormon Church members if this continues. You have something to discuss do it here and do it soon ... — Preceding unsigned comment added by 69.171.160.55 (talk) 19:00, 22 December 2011 (UTC)[reply]

Proposition 8 is already addressed in the article and does not belong in the lead section of this article. A lead section is an overview (see Wikipedia:Manual of Style/Lead section). 72Dino (talk) 19:21, 22 December 2011 (UTC)[reply]

OK... You need to address it in the lead section. Take the source material, pray about it, and ask God what is the best thing to say. His will be done ...

:) — Preceding unsigned comment added by 69.171.160.55 (talk) 19:24, 22 December 2011 (UTC)[reply]

(edit conflict)
Please watch the imperious tone and personal attacks here, in edit summaries, and on individual talkpages.
As finally toned down after several attempts to edit-war in highly POV opinion and unsupported content, the latest incarnation may be almost acceptable.
Use of the POV term "marriage equality" would need to be replaced by the NPOV descriptive term "same-sex marriage".
Description of the ("likely" according to the source) fine as being for "fraudulently reporting" is unsupported by the source supplied. In addition, mention of the fine in the lede – and arguably anywhere in the article – is completely undue weight. A $5,000 fine for technical violations is immaterial pocket change for any modern U.S. political campaign. Characterizing late reporting – not even failure to report – of $37,000 out of $40,000,000 as fraud is laughable.
The fact that the church takes a common Abrahamic religion stance in opposition to homosexual activities may be worth a one-sentence mention in the lede, probably in the last or second-to-last paragraph where male and female roles and sexuality are discussed. It is not noteworthy enough for more emphasis than that. Fat&Happy (talk) 19:48, 22 December 2011 (UTC)[reply]

There are articles titled marriage equality, hardly a POV term. I am glad you have admitted you are a member of the Mormon Church. The title of the source article speaks for itself, and it doesn't matter how much money was involved the Mormon Church LIED about it, just like the Church LIED about the murders of 150 people in Mountain meadows until in 2007 after forensic analysis of the skeletons showed Mormon Militia killed these people did the Church Prophet finally admit the murders were committed by Mormons. As recently as 2007, Mormon Missionaries desecrated a catholic shrine in Colorado, performing re-enactments of bizzare mormon rituals involving decapititation (killing of Nehor), human sacriface, and incest and polygamy on the altar of the shrine. Lots of references on that. I think Chruch members should be topic banned from this article based upon your tone. — Preceding unsigned comment added by 69.171.160.55 (talk) 22:45, 22 December 2011 (UTC)[reply]

And I find it astounding that the Church will avoid accountability for its actions in denying basic human rights to LGBT people, and try to keep its hounds spinning all the content. People want to know what the Church really is about, from every view, not just the Mormons. Time to take this to the ARBCOM. — Preceding unsigned comment added by 69.171.160.55 (talk) 22:50, 22 December 2011 (UTC)[reply]

Anyway, enough rant from me on this. I accept your proposal above. I will retone the content and I believe it is accurate of the Church's true views. Also, as for those missionaries, I think the MTC in Provo needs to teach equality and tolerance classes ... —Preceding unsigned comment added by 69.171.160.55 (talk) 23:01, 22 December 2011‎ (UTC)[reply]

(edit conflict)
"I am glad you have admitted you are a member of the Mormon Church."
Really?
Might I respectfully suggest polishing either your reading glasses or your reading skills, whichever is responsible for that completely false representation of anything written here. Fat&Happy (talk) 23:15, 22 December 2011 (UTC)[reply]


Done. Feel free edit it and make it more palatable. It's an important issue in a lot of peoples minds and is very relevant. ... — Preceding unsigned comment added by 69.171.160.55 (talk) 23:09, 22 December 2011 (UTC)[reply]

The Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-day Saints has come under significant criticism by LGBT groups and supporters for its position on traditional marriage in the public forums. Recently the Mormon Church supported California Proposition 8 in California and were fined admist claims they had misreported their involvement by the authorities, although the amounts of money claimed were small and were subsequently attributed to accounting errors by the Mormon Church. The Mormon Church did however to its credit, publicly apologize for the incident and has reiterated its position that it embraces and loves 'all of god's children' and attempts to work with LGBT members who are struggling with their sexual identity through love and compassion. Even critics of the Mormon Church have commented that the Mormon Church's approach to people of LGBT orientations is more accepting than most mainstream Christian Groups.[2]

Undue weight to a trivial matter; some factual inaccuracy; not supported by the only source (Joanna Brooks blog) provided so far; some non-neutral POV – that's for anywhere in the article (note that the LDS Church's opposition to single-sex marriage and support for Prop. 8 is already in the article). If intended for the lead, too much detail in addition to all of the above. Fat&Happy (talk) 05:09, 24 December 2011 (UTC)[reply]
Again, does not belong in the lede. The lede is an overview of the church. This information was put in before the history and doctrine. The brief mention of Proposition 8 that is already in the article is the proper weight of the subject. This detailed information may be more appropriate (if it becomes properly sourced) at Homosexuality and The Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-day Saints. 72Dino (talk) 05:27, 24 December 2011 (UTC)[reply]
Wow! What an article, not only does it state that only recently did the Mormon Church allow interracial marriages (????) and it also says if I am bisexual I have a mental illness. — Preceding unsigned comment added by 69.171.160.13 (talk) 07:48, 24 December 2011 (UTC)[reply]
You know, now that I think about those pictures I saw on the internet of Mormon Temple Garments with the green fig leaf aprons do look a lot like KKK outfits. It all fits. — Preceding unsigned comment added by 69.171.160.13 (talk) 07:50, 24 December 2011 (UTC)[reply]
These are all very vague comments but none of them offer any constructive changes or specific examples that provides any substantive foundations that support objections to the exclusion of this material. It should be included in the article. Justamanhere (talk) 08:42, 24 December 2011 (UTC)[reply]

Wikipedia is an encyclopedia — not a gossip column. Charles Edwin Shipp (talk) 15:00, 24 December 2011 (UTC)[reply]

Notice you are into "geneaology" and "family History" -- Hmmmm. It's also not a platform to promote a Fiction Novel as American History and to indulge the fantasy of one particular group. Justamanhere (talk) 15:49, 24 December 2011 (UTC)[reply]
I suggest the paragraph of three sentences at the bottom of the Article is sufficient and well-written. Charles Edwin Shipp (talk) 16:13, 24 December 2011 (UTC) . . . PS: Yes, you should visit < Indexing.FamilyHistory.org > Thanks for noticing.[reply]
Very interesting content. I notice it states 'the church has come out with certain protection for LGBT people'. I guess this is somewhat akin to Separate But Equal in the late 1960s when Blacks and Whites had 'separate but equal' restrooms. What do you think. Sounds very slanted against the church as though the church is promoting discrimination and stereotyping. Could certainly be worded in a more neutral fashion. 69.171.160.85 (talk) 17:05, 24 December 2011 (UTC)[reply]
Please try to stay logged in to your registered account of Justamanhere. Using both IP addresses and the user account can cause confusion in these discussions. The IP addresses you used before being registered are probably okay. Thanks, 72Dino (talk) 17:16, 24 December 2011 (UTC)[reply]

To User:Justamanhere: I've reverted your edit. I'd say that "certain protections" is more neutral, because everyone can agree that they are certain protections. When you insert "fundamental human rights," there goes any neutrality. CL (T · C) — 18:28, 24 December 2011 (UTC)[reply]

Agreed. Your point is well-taken. Charles Edwin Shipp (talk) 22:35, 24 December 2011 (UTC)[reply]
There is so much anti-Mormon editing going on at the bottom of this Article that I am no longer going to participate. I thought all of this negativism was moved to a separate Article: Criticism_of_The_Church_of_Jesus_Christ_of_Latter-day_Saints . . . bye, Charles Edwin Shipp (talk) 05:00, 26 December 2011 (UTC)[reply]

Additions to Main Article on Joseph Smith's Banking Fraud, Hate Crimes Against Other Faiths, and Initiatives to deny Human Rights to LGBT People

Discuss the below content. Justamanhere (talk) 05:00, 26 December 2011 (UTC)[reply]

Controversy and criticism

See also: Criticism of the Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-day Saints
File:Mormondesecration2.jpg
Mormon Missionary Preaching from Book of Mormon on the Shrine

Hate Crimes Against Other Faiths

During 2006, Three missionaries of the Mormon Church desecrated a Catholic Shrine in San Luis Colorado and photographed themselves desecrating the altar of the shrine by performing Mormon rituals involving human sacrifice on the altar of the Shrine, and decapitated a statue at the shrine. One of the members of the Mormon Church was photographed preaching from the Book of Mormon from the Altar of the Shrine.

Although the incidents occurred in 2006, they only came to the attention of the parish when they were seen on the Internet site "Photobucket." The Internet photos showed the three vandalizing the Shrine of the Mexican Martyrs in 2006 and mocking the Roman Catholic faith. One missionary was seen holding the severed head of a statue. The head was found and restored. Another photo showed a missionary appearing to preach from the Book of Mormon inside the Chapel of All Saints. A third photo showed one missionary pretending to sacrifice another on the altar at the Shrine of the Mexican Martyrs.

The Photographs were taken in August 2006 and discovered on the Internet by a Sangre de Cristo parishioner earlier that month, and clearly show the Mormon missionaries preaching behind a church altar while waving a Book of Mormon, pretending to sacrifice one another and holding the head of a statue of a Mexican martyr, whom the missionary shown in the picture claimed to have decapitated. The mocking took place at All Saints Chapel and the Shrine of the Mexican Martyrs in San Luis.

Response by the Catholic Church

The Sangre de Christo Roman Catholic Church in San Luis, Colorado voted to seek criminal charges against three LDS missionaries who were suspected of defacing the shrine. Possible charges included desecration of a venerated object, criminal trespass, defacing property and bias-motivated crime, according to The Chieftan of San Luis.

Robert Fotheringham, in charge of the LDS church's missionary program in parts of four states, and whose region includes the San Luis Valley, declined to release names of the missionaries. He confirmed the three missionaries seen in the photos, which had been removed from the Internet, were Mormon missionaries. He said they would be disciplined, though he declined to go into detail.

Members of the parish built the Shrine of the Mexican Martyrs, which has become a tourist attraction. "What they did was extremely imprudent, extremely uncharitable and inflammatory," the Rev. Pat Valdez told parishioners. "You have worked hard and this whole community has worked hard to build that shrine as an expression of our faith and an expression of our love of God."

Fotheringham, meanwhile, met with parishioners to deliver a written apology from one of the three missionaries, signed by an R. Thompson. "I realize that my companions and I have made a mockery of that which is most sacred to many of the residents of San Luis and the rest of the world. I should have known better because I have seen many of the same types of blasphemies made against my own church and I have been appalled," the statement said.

In a separate statement, LDS church authorities wrote that "those who were involved in this incident" face church discipline. LDS church spokesman Scott Trotter said he did not know details about the discipline, whether the three still are serving missions or whether they still are members of the LDS church. Trotter said he also did not know when LDS church leaders first became aware of the pictures or whether the accusations will affect the missionary program.

When asked whether he was aware of any other acts of vandalism by missionaries against religious property, Trotter said, "I'm going to have to decline comment." LDS church officials wrote in a statement that they were "deeply saddened" by the reported vandalism.

"It is particularly disturbing that this property was a religious site where people go to worship and find solace," the statement read. "We hope that the actions of these three will not damage our relationships with the citizens of San Luis and with the Catholic Church - relationships that we value so much. We offer our sincere apologies to all who have been affected by this senseless act.

"Those who were involved in this incident are facing Church discipline," the statement said.

Investigation

The Costilla County Sheriff's Office issued a statement saying the August 2006 events, which came to light when photographs appeared on the Internet, are being investigated and may lead to criminal charges, which would be filed by the district attorney. "At this time it is known that three males are involved and to what level is yet to be determined," the statement said. The photographs that sparked the investigation were taken at the Stations of the Cross Shrine in San Luis, a small town in Costilla County.

The investigation was stopped by local authorities following a request made during Holy Week by the Catholic community of Costilla County, in the Diocese of Pueblo, Colorado. Cpl. Scott Powell, the investigating officer in charge of the case, confirmed that the Costilla County Sheriff's Office would not continue looking into the actions of three missionaries who allegedly mocked the Catholic Church and vandalized a holy shrine in San Luis, Colorado's oldest town.

In an Easter letter released to "The Pueblo Chieftain", Bishop Tafoya wrote asking that "we as Catholics, who believe in the forgiveness of Christ, will ourselves forgive, and pray for the young men who showed such a lack of tolerance and understanding." "I especially ask the members of the San Luis community to help the healing process by removing any anger that exists in their hearts. This is the time that we can show our love of Christ by forgiving and loving our neighbors," he wrote.

In response to the Bishop's request, the parish council took a vote and recommended, before celebrating the Mass of the Institution of the Eucharist, that no charges be filed against the young men. [1] [2] [3]

The church has been subject to criticism and sometimes discrimination since its early years in New York and Pennsylvania. In the late 1820s, criticism centered around the claim by Joseph Smith, Jr. to have been led to a set of golden plates from which the Book of Mormon was reputedly translated.

In the 1830s, the greatest criticism was for Smith's handling of a banking failure in Kirtland, Ohio, and the LDS Church's political and military power in Missouri, culminating in the 1838 Mormon War. In the 1840s, criticism of the church centered on the church's theocratic aspirations in Nauvoo, Illinois. Criticism of the practice of plural marriage and other doctrines taught by Smith appeared in the Nauvoo Expositor, which led to a series of events culminating in Smith's murder in 1844.

Protesters in front of the Newport Beach California Temple voicing their opposition to the church's support of Prop 8

As the church began openly practicing plural marriage under Brigham Young during the second half of the 19th century, the church became the target of nation-wide criticism for that practice (which was banned by the church in 1890), as well as for the church's theocratic aspirations in the Utah Territory. Beginning in 1857, the church also came under significant media criticism after the Mountain Meadows massacre in southern Utah.

Academic critics have questioned the legitimacy of Smith as a prophet as well as the historical authenticity of the Book of Mormon and the Book of Abraham. Criticism has expanded to include claims of historical revisionism, homophobia, racism, and sexist policies. Notable 20th-century critics include Jerald and Sandra Tanner and Fawn Brodie. Evangelical Christians continue to argue that Smith was either fraudulent or delusional. Mormon apologetics organizations, such as the Foundation for Apologetic Information & Research (FAIR) and the Foundation for Ancient Research and Mormon Studies (FARMS), have been founded to counter these criticisms. Most of the apologetic work focuses on providing and discussing evidence supporting the claims of Joseph Smith and the Book of Mormon, and much of it features criticism of the perceived lack of honesty when it comes to the scholarship of non-Mormon critics. Scholars and authors such as Hugh Nibley, Daniel C. Peterson, Jeff Lindsay, Orson Scott Card, and James E. Talmage are well-known apologists both within and without the church.

In recent years, the Internet has provided a new forum for proponents and critics of religions, including Mormonism.[4]

Opposition to marriage equality for LGBT People

The church's support in 2008 of California's Proposition 8 sparked heated debate and protest by gay-rights organizations and others.[5][6][7] The church expressed support for a Salt Lake City ordinance protecting members of the LGBT community against discrimination in employment and housing while allowing religious institutions to consider lifestyles in actions such as hiring or providing university accommodations.[8]

Due to doctrinal differences, the LDS Church is generally considered to be distinct from historical Christianity by Catholic, Orthodox, and Protestant churches, which express differences with one another as well.[9][10] Many have accused the LDS Church of not being a Christian church at all as a result of disagreements with Apostolic succession and the "Great Apostasy", the Nicene Creed and, more so, Mormon cosmology and its plan of salvation including the doctrines of pre-mortal life, baptism for the dead, three degrees of heaven, and exaltation, the last of which allows for the belief that humans may become gods and goddesses achieving the same status that Jesus achieved, which is also referred to as becoming a "joint-heir with Christ".[11]

  1. ^ Mormon Desecration http://truthandgrace.com/mormondesecration.htm
  2. ^ Mormon Missionaries Desecrate Catholic Shrine http://www.catholic.org/national/national_story.php?id=27141
  3. ^ Sheriff Investigates Shrine Desecration http://www.denverpost.com/ci_8548957?source=pkg
  4. ^ Sink, Mindy (September 6, 2003), "Religion Journal; Spiritual Issues Lead Many to the Net", The New York Times, retrieved February 21, 2008
  5. ^ "San Diego march for marriage equality draws 20,000 protesters", Gay & Lesbian Times, retrieved January 21, 2009 {{citation}}: Cite has empty unknown parameter: |coauthors= (help)
  6. ^ "California and Same-Sex Marriage", LDS Church, retrieved January 21, 2009
  7. ^ Page, Jared (June 20, 2008), "Sierra Club hails LDS Church for downtown Salt Lake makeover", Deseret News, retrieved June 29, 2008
  8. ^ "Mormon Church Backs Gay Protecting City Ordinances", Deseret News
  9. ^ Kennedy, John W. (2004), "Winning them softly", Christianity Today, vol. 48, no. 2, retrieved October 7, 2006 {{citation}}: Unknown parameter |month= ignored (help)
  10. ^ Ratzinger, Joseph (June 5, 2001), "Response to a 'dubium' on the validity of baptism conferred by 'The Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-day Saints', called 'Mormons'", Congregation for the Doctrine of the Faith, retrieved August 15, 2006 (the official Roman Catholic view).
  11. ^ Young, Brigham (1992). Gold Plates. MacMillian. p. 555. Retrieved June 21, 2011. {{cite book}}: |work= ignored (help)
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