Playing a game with someone and looking for a 7 letter word pertaining to Nero being the last Roman emperor of the Julio-Claudian dynasty. It must end in the letter h. Thanks.--Doug Coldwell ^talk 00:26, 25 December 2009 (UTC)[reply]

'Last-ish'? --KageTora - (影虎) (Talk?) 00:44, 25 December 2009 (UTC)[reply]

Sorry :) This online thesaurus gave plenty of words, but not a single one ended in '-h'. --KageTora - (影虎) (Talk?) 00:46, 25 December 2009 (UTC)[reply]

through? impeach? seventh? ("No hairy seventh to him succeeds.")—eric 03:58, 25 December 2009 (UTC)[reply]

The word "through" fits nicely. Made a shortcut to Dictionary.com. The solved puzzle then comes out as

Nero Claudius Caesar Augustus Germanicus, fifth Roman Emperor of through with the Julio-Claudian dynasty, was held in disrepute over the same ruled mortals and produced a history segment as misrepresentation of all the emperors who were in a dilemma, a tasteless history record on the dynasty.

I think it makes sense. He's a really old professor playing these games with me.

Found reference to "No hairy seventh to him succeeds" in Google Books here. Thanks for help.--Doug Coldwell ^talk 12:58, 25 December 2009 (UTC)[reply]

If it "makes sense", could someone translate it for me? It doesn't read like any English I know. Bielle (talk) 20:45, 25 December 2009 (UTC)[reply]

It's just an old game a very old professor is playing with me. I'll try to break it down to where it makes sense:

• Nero Claudius Caesar Augustus Germanicus, fifth Roman Emperor of through with the Julio-Claudian dynasty = last of the Julio-Claudian dynasty emperors.
• ...was held in disrepute over the same ruled mortals... = ruled the same people as Claudius.
• ...produced a history segment as misrepresentation of all the emperors who were in a dilemma... = left worst reputation of these emperors.
• ...a tasteless history record on the dynasty. = his rule is often associated with tyranny and extravagance.

The game involves coming up with appropiate words that end with certain letters and have a certain count. Examples:

• 7 letter word ending in h = through
• 7 letter word ending in s = mortals
• 7 letter word ending in a = dilemma

The English is not smooth as we are accustom to because it is a very old English game we are playing. He's teaching me some ancient Roman history. I think the gest of the small bio on Nero above is generally correct. Don't you agree?--Doug Coldwell ^talk 21:56, 25 December 2009 (UTC)[reply]

Another example of the old English game would be below. See if you can solve:

• _ _ _ _ _ _ s of _ _ _ _ _ _ a also, layperson and athlete, activity in the same _ _ _ _ _ a.
  

Answer ---> Perhaps of militia also, layperson and athlete, activity in the same tunica.

Keep in mind, this has something to do with ancient Rome that was around for about 1200 years.--Doug Coldwell ^talk 23:29, 25 December 2009 (UTC)[reply]

For the 7-letter one ending in "h" to refer to a finality, I'd have gone with "epitaph" rather than "through". Grutness...wha? 23:52, 25 December 2009 (UTC)[reply]

Thanks, I like that better myself.--Doug Coldwell ^talk 00:21, 26 December 2009 (UTC)[reply]

Surely "of epitaph with" makes no sense in English (just like "through")? Admittedly, a replacement is elusive. Ignoring the finality meaning, I'd think perhaps "triumph". - Jarry1250 ^{[Humorous? Discuss.]} 10:36, 26 December 2009 (UTC)[reply]

Nero Claudius Caesar Augustus Germanicus, fifth Roman Emperor of triumph with the Julio-Claudian dynasty, was held in disrepute over the same ruled mortals and produced a history segment as misrepresentation of all the emperors who were in a dilemma, a tasteless history record on the dynasty.

Better yet, thanks! Otherwise does the short "bio" apply to Nero?--Doug Coldwell ^talk 12:11, 26 December 2009 (UTC)[reply]

It could do. Almost every emperor has his successes and failures. Even more so with Nero. - Jarry1250 ^{[Humorous? Discuss.]} 15:42, 26 December 2009 (UTC)[reply]

Turns out the last word has 6 letters, not 7 letters, so it looks like it comes out then:

Nero Claudius Caesar Augustus Germanicus, fifth Roman Emperor of triumph with the Julio-Claudian dynasty, was held in disrepute over the same ruled mortals (of Claudius) and produced a history segment as misrepresentation of all of the emperors who were not in tunica (used toga instead), a tasteless history record on the ending of the dynasty.

Can someone that is expert on Nero confirm this outcome to be a description of him?--Doug Coldwell ^talk 22:34, 26 December 2009 (UTC)[reply]

What is the English term for the triangular extension of hair at the back of the neck? It is at the center of the back of the neck & is shaped like a triangle that is pointed downward and is most noticeable among hairy individuals.--68.215.227.182 (talk) 05:01, 25 December 2009 (UTC)[reply]

Nape? --TammyMoet (talk) 09:20, 25 December 2009 (UTC)[reply]

The nape is just the back of the neck. English has no word for the hair there, to my knowledge. Paul Davidson (talk) 10:52, 25 December 2009 (UTC)[reply]

When my barber cuts it that way, he calls it a "taper(ed) back", as opposed to a "square cut" that would go straight across. This is in Canada. And the fact that he just uses the word "back" suggests that there isn't any other word for that part of the hair. --Anonymous, 04:18 UTC, December 26, 2009.

Look up some photos of a Duck's Ass. I'm not screwing with you. Seegoon (talk) 15:58, 26 December 2009 (UTC)[reply]

Yes, I can confirm the above - it made a brief comeback in the UK in the 1970s when 50s retro was chic. Known in polite circles as a D. A. for obvious reasons. Alansplodge (talk) 17:15, 27 December 2009 (UTC)[reply]

When I wake up, I find that at the corners of my eyes near towards the nose bridge, there are solidified substances. What are they called?--68.215.227.182 (talk) 05:41, 25 December 2009 (UTC)[reply]

It is sometimes referred to as Rheum. I hope this helps. JW..[ T..C ] 06:03, 25 December 2009 (UTC)[reply]

Thanks.--68.215.227.182 (talk) 06:09, 25 December 2009 (UTC)[reply]

Dried eye mucus is called "sleep". Paul Davidson (talk) 08:36, 25 December 2009 (UTC)[reply]

I used to hear that stuff called "sleepers". It's fair to say that's probably a colloquialism. ←Baseball Bugs ^{What's up, Doc?} carrots→ 16:42, 25 December 2009 (UTC)[reply]

Monkees Song Lyrics: "Daydream Believer": verse 1, line 5: "Wipe the sleep out of my eyes." Wavelength (talk) 17:57, 25 December 2009 (UTC)[reply]

eye boogers or eye crusties --Nricardo (talk) 18:13, 25 December 2009 (UTC)[reply]

Also sometimes called 'sand' (usually with the clarificatory addition of 'in my/your eyes), from folktale (and modernised) references to The Sandman. 87.81.230.195 (talk) 23:39, 28 December 2009 (UTC)[reply]

This question of the clinical term for "eye boogers" has been asked several times on various Reference Desks. Search the archive. It turns out that doctors usually just call it "matter". Despite what some websites claim, it does not appear that "rheum" or "gound" are commonly used as clinical terms for the dried, crusty stuff. I note that our rheum article is completely unreferenced, unless you count the external link to "Memidex free online dictionary and thesaurus."

In Spanish, the word lagañas exists to describe eye boogers. Lagañas has no good English equivalent -- it usually translates to "sleep." The Hero of This Nation (talk) 15:01, 30 December 2009 (UTC)[reply]

When I was little, my parents used to call them "Sleepytimes." Sounds kind of silly now, but that's what I grew up with. ^_^ Kingsfold (talk) 20:51, 30 December 2009 (UTC)[reply]

Is there a way to find certain words with the letter they end with? For example, say I was looking for all 4 letter words that end with a. Or I was looking for all 6 letter words ending with an r. Or I was looking for all 10 letter words ending with s. Is there already such a program already out there someplace that provides this?--Doug Coldwell ^talk 15:14, 25 December 2009 (UTC)[reply]

Any of the many Hangman solvers can do this. Vimescarrot (talk) 15:25, 25 December 2009 (UTC)[reply]

Some solvers have limitations, but googling "Hangman solver" comes up with any number of them, so you're welcome to try them all out. Vimescarrot (talk) 15:27, 25 December 2009 (UTC)[reply]

I like it! Thanks.--Doug Coldwell ^talk 15:34, 25 December 2009 (UTC)[reply]

A search for "crossword solver" might turn up some other tools. Also the Shorter Oxford English Dictionary on CD includes tools for this. Mitch Ames (talk) 00:11, 26 December 2009 (UTC)[reply]

It is an old discussion. I thought someone would comment on this further, but that has not happened. Here is the OP: —Mihkaw napéw (talk) 18:14, 25 December 2009 (UTC)[reply]

Is there a word to indicate that a word needs a subsidiary phrase. Eg Evocative or reminiscent which need the "of ...." Kittybrewster ☎ 16:00, 21 December 2009 (UTC)

Phrasal verb seems to be what you're looking for. (But note that "evocative" can be used on its own, to refer to something that brings up emotions. (e.g. google {"very evocative" -"evocative of"} with the quotes, but without the curly braces). -- 128.104.112.94 (talk) 22:17, 21 December 2009 (UTC)

"Evocative of" is not a phrasal verb, because "evocative" is not a verb. --Anon, 06:26 UTC, December 22, 2009.

Also see subcategorization, though the article is woefully exiguous. --ColinFine (talk) 00:04, 22 December 2009 (UTC)

Some languages might have evocative markers in their lexical or grammatical marking. In English, I doubt there is such thing; other than in poetical natures. However, if you can clarify this with a sentence, then it is easy to understand what you are saying. —Mihkaw napéw (talk) 03:51, 22 December 2009 (UTC)

I was thinking of eg "It is evocative of the spirit of Manderley", "the smell is reminiscent of an abattoir". Kittybrewster ☎ 17:29, 22 December 2009 (UTC)

That is better. My answer is then these words (which I have not read often in contexts but according to corpora) usually form as a nominal in a sentence (though the examples are adjectival here), i.e. by taking of a subsidiary phrase (usually a prepositional phrase, as you said). And as they are adjectives, they can function as adjectives.

And to a different question on whether a word needs a subsidiary phrase in phrasal categories, other than ‘Comp phrase’ which requires a phrase, all other words can stand alone within their phrasal categories.

However, you may be correct on the assumption that ‘evocative’ as a rhetorical marker needs a subsidiary phrase in discourses (not just mentioning the grammatical aspect). If that is case, I do know the word for such feature either. —Mihkaw napéw (talk) 20:06, 22 December 2009 (UTC)

Just to be clear, Kitty's question was perfectly clear (to a native speaker) in its original form. I'm glad Kitty's examples made the question clearer to you, Mihkaw.

I'm going back to the first anon, in the very first answer. The phrasal verb is is evocative of or is reminiscent of, with is as the verb.

You can replace "is evocative of" with the verb "evokes", for example It is evocative of the spirit of Manderley: It evokes the spirit of Manderley. You cannot similarly replace "evocative" when is evocative is used intransitively, because the verb evoke is pretty transitive. For example: It is certainly evocative: *It certainly evokes (although I suppose you might try, it would always sound like it was missing something to me). The of transforms it from intransitive to transitive. Perhaps a linguist could comment. 86.176.191.243 (talk) 18:38, 23 December 2009 (UTC)

There are few new problems now, but I add one comment on the OP. The examples as stated above require first a noun phrase, though we see many such samples in English corpora. So I have to conclude that what we see in corpora are not correct as to their contexts in syntax, i.e. the word ‘evocative’ must be a noun or a modified noun before it can take a second AdjComp. One may argue however that the corpora are the most conventionalized speech patterns that give prominence to particular rhetorical elements than their syntax. —Mihkaw napéw (talk) 18:14, 25 December 2009 (UTC)[reply]

What is the historical justification for capitalizing the word "I"? It doesn't seem to be serving any function in making English easier to understand, and no other word in English has this kind of special rule (except for the vocative "O", sometimes, and He, Him, His to refer to God). Also, is there any chance that this rule will drop out of English in the future? Thanks. 76.204.127.175 (talk) 19:59, 25 December 2009 (UTC)[reply]

I went to google and entered [why is i capitalized] and a whole bunch of entries came up, much of it appearing to be speculation. This one [1] seems to be a reasonably scholarly explanation. ←Baseball Bugs ^{What's up, Doc?} carrots→ 20:10, 25 December 2009 (UTC)[reply]

I (pronoun)#Etymology says:"Capitalisation of the word began around 1250 to clarify the single letter as constituting a full word: writers and copyists began to use a capital I because the lower-case letter was hard to read, and sometimes mistaken for part of the previous or succeeding word."

-- Wavelength (talk) 20:12, 25 December 2009 (UTC)[reply]

If it is a proto-Germanic origin, what else could have been the reasons as such to emphasize the first person singular, while a special stress is given to the first person singular to be small letters in German (as though nouns are capitalized)? An example as I just got:

"..., über Deine Mail zum Christfest freue ich mich sehr. Ich bin gerne und immer Dein...."

It seems the stress in first person singular pronoun in English rather an accident (but conventionalized) than having an explainable etymological origin. Is there any linguistic prescription in modern English? —Mihkaw napéw (talk) 02:38, 26 December 2009 (UTC)[reply]

Isn't the better question why capitalization of "I" didn't stop when it stopped for other nouns? English used to capitalize all nouns. — Ƶ§œš¹ _{[aɪm ˈfɻɛ̃ⁿdˡi]} 01:40, 26 December 2009 (UTC)[reply]

Pronouns are not "nouns" in the relevant sense, anyway: German doesn't capitalize pronouns except for Sie (formal 2nd. person) and related forms. AnonMoos (talk) 05:34, 26 December 2009 (UTC)[reply]

Informal 2nd person pronouns get capitalized as well, occasionally. See above with "Dein". Rimush (talk) 15:25, 26 December 2009 (UTC)[reply]

Then, only the pronouns of '2nd. person' are capitalized in German, than I thought as if they were common to all pronouns other than in the cases of ambiguities where a pronoun stress marker is necessary (like, plural ‘sie’ versus formal ‘Sie’). —Mihkaw napéw (talk) 17:26, 26 December 2009 (UTC)[reply]

A common folk etymology-ish thing is that the capitalization of "I" represents the individualist/navel-gazing nature of English speakers (i.e., we think we're so important we capitalize "I", whereas Spanish speakers capitalize formal "You", French speakers capitalize no pronouns, etc.). This is fanciful and groundless, so you shouldn't believe it...but people do try to say it from time to time. rʨanaɢ ^talk/_contribs 01:47, 26 December 2009 (UTC)[reply]

In blackletter script, "i" was just a single-minim unit, and so not very distinctive on the page. Of course, the letter "i" was sometimes swashed to "j" at the beginning of a word ("I" and "J" were not really distinguished until the 17th century, and were not always considered fully separate letters of the alphabet until the 19th century). AnonMoos (talk) 22:16, 25 December 2009 (UTC)[reply]

I once asked a teacher why the I was capitalized. She explained to me that it was simply a carry-over from the German Ich, which satisfied my curiosity (apparently I never thought to ask why Ich would always be capitalized) and I lived happily ever after... until the second week of German class a decade later. Matt Deres (talk) 02:05, 26 December 2009 (UTC) [reply]

I would guess that I is capitolized simply in order to make it apparent that the use of the single letter is intentional. since a is not a pronoun, that would seem to me to explain the reason why it's treated differently. ...and, now that I read the rest of this, I see that Wavelength stated something similar, above.
— V = I * R (talk to Ω) 03:57, 26 December 2009 (UTC)[reply]

So is there any chance that "I" will stop being capitalized (as modern typography/handwriting makes it distinct enough for the capitalization not to be required), or will a lack of capitalization always be stigmatized (as wholly uneducated or childish, say) enough for the rule to continue perpetually? 76.204.127.175 (talk) 19:15, 26 December 2009 (UTC)[reply]

This is the reference desk, not the prognostication desk, so I don't think anyone here can answer that question. rʨanaɢ ^talk/_contribs 19:18, 26 December 2009 (UTC)[reply]

I was watching a documentary on Australia and came a cross a word I didn't understand. Near the end of the show, an angry shopkeeper is griping about the overwhelming number of bullfrogs that have invaded and he says that "They're in the lift and the lorry and all around the..." I hesitate to even try to guess how to spell it... "malunga-gulachuck?" "Milungagullashuk?" I more or less assumed it was a made-up word poking fun at what sounds to North American ears to be quaint or silly sounding placenames, but I'm curious as to whether it might be a legitimate place or thing. Any help? Matt Deres (talk) 01:30, 26 December 2009 (UTC)[reply]

As I recall, just nonsense words. I found the episode extra funny because there is a "mistake" about Australia every minute; e.g the word "lorry" is little used. Polypipe Wrangler (talk) 13:40, 26 December 2009 (UTC)[reply]

What exactly is the distinction between the chinese characters 作 and 做? I looked them both up and they seem to have the same pronounciation (zuò) and both mean to do or to make. Can they pretty much be used interchangably? Yakeyglee (talk) 02:34, 26 December 2009 (UTC)[reply]

They are not interchangeable. 作, when used in practice, means rather negative things like cheat, make mischief, and show off. 做 often means rather positive things like make love, accomplish, and dream. Of course, there are many uses that are not strictly negative or positive, but the general negative/positive feeling still remains connected. -- kainaw™ 03:17, 27 December 2009 (UTC)[reply]

There are also cases in which one or the other is used in a compound word (for example, 工作、作文、etc.) and can't be replaced with the other. rʨanaɢ ^talk/_contribs 17:25, 27 December 2009 (UTC)[reply]

In all of the examples I gave, they are compound words - which is normal Chinese. Single-character words are not very common. It screams "foreigner" when using single-character words, such as "green" (lu) instead of the proper "green color" (luse). -- kainaw™ 04:50, 28 December 2009 (UTC)[reply]

Hi folks,

I've been noticing recently, in various places (not just on Wikipedia), that some people seem to be using (or not using) commas in sentence lists differently then how I've always been taught. For example, I've been seeing:

In this example sentence, there are a number of items including item 1, item 2 and item 3.

(note that item 2 and item 3 are not directly related, so purposely excluding a comma between them would not be appropriate) I've always been taught that that it's more correct to do:

In this example sentence, there are a number of items including item 1, item 2, and item 3.

This is probably slightly pedantic on my part, but... like I said, I've been noticing it quite often recently for some reason. Am I off base here, somehow? Thanks.
— V = I * R (talk to Ω) 02:54, 26 December 2009 (UTC)[reply]

The commas in lists were originally a shorthand way of saying "and", so by including that last comma in the second example you're basically saying "and and". ←Baseball Bugs ^{What's up, Doc?} carrots→ 04:12, 26 December 2009 (UTC)[reply]

Really?!? I've honestly never heard that before... and, I do have a Websters Quick Reference here that says to use a comma. Is this something new (the Websters that I have is a couple decades old... and my Grammar School education is as well, for that matter).
— V = I * R (talk to Ω) 04:15, 26 December 2009 (UTC)[reply]

You should read serial comma for a complete overview of this question, frequently debated. --Lgriot (talk) 04:17, 26 December 2009 (UTC)[reply]

Ahh.... thanks!
— V = I * R (talk to Ω) 04:19, 26 December 2009 (UTC)[reply]

Yet another WP:ENGVAR issue, I see... *sigh*
— V = I * R (talk to Ω) 04:21, 26 December 2009 (UTC)[reply]

Actually it's something old. ←Baseball Bugs ^{What's up, Doc?} carrots→ 04:21, 26 December 2009 (UTC)[reply]

Now that I know what to look for, I see: MOS:SERIAL, which covers this issue nicely. Thanks guys.
— V = I * R (talk to Ω) 04:32, 26 December 2009 (UTC)[reply]

Whichever option you choose, may I just say that I would have put a comma between "items" and "including". -- Jack of Oz ... speak! ... 20:54, 26 December 2009 (UTC)[reply]

And I would have put a question mark at the end of that question, Jack. :) --KageTora - (影虎) (Talk?) 15:46, 27 December 2009 (UTC)[reply]

Oh, really? It's not a question in my books, so no question mark is required.  :) -- Jack of Oz ... speak! ... 18:26, 27 December 2009 (UTC) [reply]

Anything that starts with 'may I just say that...' sounds very much (grammatically) like a question to me, though. --KageTora - (影虎) (Talk?) 13:51, 28 December 2009 (UTC)[reply]

In form, it appears to be a question. But I was not asking anyone's permission to say/write anything, I was merely using a polite form of expression. "May I say that ...", "may I add that ...", "might I suggest that ..." are all ways of really saying "I am now going to say/add/suggest that ...". Other sentences that look like questions but are not include "Would you please shut up" (that's a command) and "Would you excuse me" (that's an entreaty). Weird stuff, this English. -- Jack of Oz ... speak! ... 18:32, 28 December 2009 (UTC) [reply]

I want to know the meaning of the word "zarandela" "a la zarandela..." It is mentioned on a Puertorican christmas carol. Thanks Annie Maldonado San Juan, PR —Preceding unsigned comment added by 70.45.215.122 (talk) 14:50, 26 December 2009 (UTC)[reply]

I can't find a translation, but it seems to be the name of a song, and zarandear means "to shake", if that makes any sense in the context of the carol. ←Baseball Bugs ^{What's up, Doc?} carrots→ 17:16, 26 December 2009 (UTC)[reply]

I've also been unable to translate it. I don't speak the language, but it seems to be the name or nickname of a person. Matt Deres (talk) 17:20, 26 December 2009 (UTC)[reply]

I don't speak the language either, but I think it may be pointed out that it sounds strikingly similar to 'Cinderella'. Maybe this is stating the obvious, and I apologize for that, but if it really is a name, as Matt says, this may be relevant. --KageTora - (影虎) (Talk?) 17:35, 26 December 2009 (UTC)[reply]

Anything's possible, but "Cinderella" got her name from cleaning the cinders out of the family stove or chimney or something. ←Baseball Bugs ^{What's up, Doc?} carrots→ 17:37, 26 December 2009 (UTC)[reply]

"Cinderella" in Spanish is rendered as Cenicienta, which literally means "ashen" or "ash-gray". ←Baseball Bugs ^{What's up, Doc?} carrots→ 17:40, 26 December 2009 (UTC)[reply]

I don't find "zarandela" in the Spanish wikipedia either. ←Baseball Bugs ^{What's up, Doc?} carrots→ 17:49, 26 December 2009 (UTC)[reply]

I think Bugs was on the right track, with a word deriving from zarandear -to shake. I wonder if the reference in what the OP describes as a Christmas carol is to "shepherds quake at the sight". And the usual disclaimer: I don't speak Spanish. Bielle (talk) 18:09, 26 December 2009 (UTC)[reply]

Could be related. The word for shepherd is pastor, which makes it obvious why a church minister is often called by that title. Zarandela would seem to be a feminine word, so it's hard to tell. ←Baseball Bugs ^{What's up, Doc?} carrots→ 18:18, 26 December 2009 (UTC)[reply]

I'm asking at the Spanish wikipedia. We'll see (1) if my Spanish is comprehensible to them; and (2) if they can provide an explanation. ←Baseball Bugs ^{What's up, Doc?} carrots→ 19:07, 26 December 2009 (UTC)[reply]

Here's their explanation ...

Es complicado. «Zarandelo» es un dialectalismo que significa trompo que baila zarandeado; en esa canción, además, está usado metafóricamente, así que no es fácil la adaptación.

La expresión "a la zarandela" aparece en varias canciones (entre ellas, alguna de navidad y alguna de fiesta, puede leerla aquí). Se refiere a una mujer, que supuestamente gusta a quien habla y que tiene un carácter alegre, etc.

... and my attempt at a translation:

It is complicated. "Zarandelo" is a dialectism which signifies spinning top which dances shaken; in that song, moreover, it is used metaphorically, in a way that is not easily adapted [into other languages].

The expression "a la zarandela" appears in various songs (among them, some of Christmas and some of holidays, you can read it here). It refers to a woman, who supposedly is pleasing to who is speaking and who has a lively character, etc.

←Baseball Bugs ^{What's up, Doc?} carrots→ 19:28, 26 December 2009 (UTC)[reply]

And it's risky to make assumptions, so I just wonder if this word is connected with the Italian lively dance called the Tarantella. ←Baseball Bugs ^{What's up, Doc?} carrots→ 19:37, 26 December 2009 (UTC)[reply]

Nope. The Spanish for tarantella is tarantela. ←Baseball Bugs ^{What's up, Doc?} carrots→ 19:59, 26 December 2009 (UTC)[reply]

It could just be a derivation of zarandearse (cf Belle's answer), which in regional use relates to making swinging movements of the body parts. Pallida  Mors 23:17, 26 December 2009 (UTC)[reply]

Hmm. Doesn't really make sense in context: "A la zarandela de mi corazon." Could it be related to zarandar - , 4th meaning in the DRAE - Separar de lo común lo especial y más precioso (Separate the special and most valuable from the ordinary)?. --NorwegianBlue ^talk 00:09, 28 December 2009 (UTC)[reply]

Hum... I really don't know what to say. I have the impression that the derivation is zarandear->zarandelo (top [movement])->zarandela. The de mi corazón bit is basically my beloved.... I really hope that some Boricua fellow wikipedian shed some insight, though. :) Pallida  Mors 02:25, 28 December 2009 (UTC)[reply]

Is there a word that describes a brand name that becomes the generic term for some product? Examples include kleenex, q-tip, and xerox. I thought of eponym, but that is not quite right.--Eriastrum (talk) 20:24, 26 December 2009 (UTC)[reply]

I don't think there's a single word, but genericized trademark should be of interest. - Nunh-huh 20:26, 26 December 2009 (UTC)[reply]

Thanks, Nunh-huh, that looks like the right term (although I was hoping for something snappier!)--Eriastrum (talk) 21:27, 26 December 2009 (UTC)[reply]

The article on genericized trademark uses the term genericide. This word seems to "wrong" to me, because normally XXXicide means killing XXX, whereas genericide is "killing" the brand and "creating" a generic term. The word isn't in the Shorter Oxford yet, but googling it :-) finds about 213,000 results. Mitch Ames (talk) 00:50, 27 December 2009 (UTC)[reply]

Genericide is also the term that is used on Language Log sometimes (e.g., [2]). rʨanaɢ ^talk/_contribs 02:03, 27 December 2009 (UTC)[reply]

Have a look at trademark erosion[3].Alansplodge (talk) 17:03, 27 December

2009 (UTC)

The collared generic terms for products usually are blend, eponym, and compound (Compound linguistics). However, they are not easy to define if there aren’t reliable background information. That is, there may be some information to sound like ‘blend’ now and different information to sound you like ‘eponym’ or ‘compound’ in other times. —Mihkaw napéw (talk) 02:38, 28 December 2009 (UTC)[reply]

I find Mihkaw napew's post completely incomprehensible. Is it a POE or is he/she really saying something?--Eriastrum (talk) 21:09, 30 December 2009 (UTC)[reply]

Is china named after China or vice-versa? —Preceding unsigned comment added by Jc iindyysgvxc (talk • contribs) 21:36, 26 December 2009 (UTC)[reply]

As you would expect from the pages you've linked to, "china" on the table acquired its name from the country: that is, "china" is a shortened form of "Chinese porcelain". As the first page you linked states. "Porcelain can informally be referred to as "china" in some English-speaking countries, as China was the birth place of porcelain making." - Nunh-huh 22:23, 26 December 2009 (UTC)[reply]

Yes, the Etymology section in the article on China has a section on the etymology of the English word for the country, as well as for the porcelain. --KageTora - (影虎) (Talk?) 00:14, 27 December 2009 (UTC)[reply]

Who is Mr. Bishi? --84.62.197.235 (talk) 15:37, 27 December 2009 (UTC)[reply]

Google search here gives 21,900 hits. Without context, we can't really help more than that. --KageTora - (影虎) (Talk?) 15:42, 27 December 2009 (UTC)[reply]

What about Mitsubishi? --84.62.197.235 (talk) 15:56, 27 December 2009 (UTC)[reply]

That had occurred to me, but, as I say, without any context, all I could do was search on google for the exact term you were asking about. Do you have any context? Is it something about the Japanese car manufacturer Mitsubishi? --KageTora - (影虎) (Talk?) 16:08, 27 December 2009 (UTC)[reply]

Is the name “Mitsubishi” used for companies other than the Japanese car manufacturer Mitsubishi Motors? --84.62.197.235 (talk) 21:32, 27 December 2009 (UTC)[reply]

Yes, it is. In actual fact, 'Mitsubishi' is a family name, and a A lot of smaller and lesser known companies, shops, and so on, could easily have this name. Bear in mind, though, that normally such companies, etc., would be called 'Mitsubishi' + '[line of business]' (e.g. [EDIT] a theoretical Mitsubishi Liquor Store), just as Mitsubishi Motors do. Bear in mind, also, that Mitsubishi Motors is just part of a larger corporation that deals in all sorts of things. See this page for a list. --KageTora - (影虎) (Talk?) 22:12, 27 December 2009 (UTC)[reply]

Mitsubishi is not a family name. For details, see Mitsubishi. --Sushiya (talk) 22:59, 27 December 2009 (UTC)[reply]

Fair enough, I was misinformed in that respect, but what I said about Mitsubishi Motors being part of a larger group of companies in the same corporation is true, and the name 'Mitsubishi [something]' is used in many of them. (To be honest, I believed the logo was formed after the name, rather than the other way round). --KageTora - (影虎) (Talk?) 04:00, 28 December 2009 (UTC)[reply]

Very interesting; I had heard that the logo was based on the props of the old Mitsubishi Zero. I wonder if the explanation given in our reference (i.e. the Mitsubishi company website) for that has done a bit of history re-writing to remove the association with war. Matt Deres (talk) 06:30, 28 December 2009 (UTC)[reply]

Well, the story I'd been given is obviously incorrect as the logo predates WW2; there do seem to be sources indicating it's based on a ship's propeller, though. Matt Deres (talk) 06:36, 28 December 2009 (UTC)[reply]

Hm, regarding the OP's question: could it have anything to do with how American otaku use the word bishy (as in, an adjunctive form of bishonen, meaning something beautiful in the anime sense)? TomorrowTime (talk) 17:44, 28 December 2009 (UTC)[reply]

I created the Zodi Ikhia article. However, I can't really dechiffer what is family name and what isn't. Different references give different result, some notable references state 'Ikhia' as the family name. --Soman (talk) 16:20, 27 December 2009 (UTC)[reply]

You may want to post this in Talk:Tuareg, if you cannot get any reply here. —Mihkaw napéw (talk) 02:03, 28 December 2009 (UTC)[reply]

Some cultural groups simply don't have anything that very closely corresponds to a surname in the western sense, despite sometimes having long multi-part names. For instance, look at Arabic name; sometimes an element from a complex Arabic name gets pulled in to serve as a surname in western contexts somewhat arbitrarily, regardless of whether there's any real equivalence in function. So the element of Saddam Hussein's full original name which probably most closely corresponds to a western surname is actually "al-Tikriti", the element of Yasser Arafat's full original name which probably most closely corresponds to a western surname is actually "al-Qudwa" (or "al-Kidwa"), etc. etc. It can be complicated. AnonMoos (talk) 02:41, 28 December 2009 (UTC)[reply]

The confusing thing is that the French National Assembly website show 3 different ways of writing his name (on the same page); Ikhia Aboubekr ZODI / ZODI IKHIA (Aboubekr) / Aboubekr (ou Aboubacar) Ikhia Zodi. However, its seems that most English Google Books hits use 'Zodi Ikhia'. --Soman (talk) 09:53, 28 December 2009 (UTC)[reply]

I bit similar to the query posted above; I also created the article Deiva Zivarattinam. However, I can't find any material for the period 1954-1975. The translitteration Deiva Zivarattinam is typically French, probably different translitterations were used after integration with India. Can any material, with a different translitteration, be found on Google? How to write the name in Tamil? --Soman (talk) 16:20, 27 December 2009 (UTC)[reply]

What do you mean by “The translitteration Deiva Zivarattinam is typically French, probably different translitterations were used after integration with India”? This link has Tamil transliteration. You may want to check the correctness of the transliteration in “Talk:Tamil script”. —Mihkaw napéw (talk) 02:03, 28 December 2009 (UTC)[reply]

I suppose the name would have been given as 'D. Sivaratnam' in English style transliteration, but I couldn't find anything on him on google. --Soman (talk) 17:46, 28 December 2009 (UTC)[reply]

Most likely the Tamil is சிவரத்தினம், a scientific transliteration would be Civarattiṉam. The Z in Zivarattinam seems quite odd, I wouldn't say it's typically French either. And if the person used to write his name that way before 1954, there is no reason why he should have changed that after Pondicherry became a part of India. Indeed, even today there are many Pondicherryans who write their names in a French fashion. --BishkekRocks (talk) 20:41, 28 December 2009 (UTC)[reply]

I'm listening to a Spanish-based Portuguese course, in which the phrase "El fantasma de servicio" / "O fantasma de serviço" appears. Context: A husband and wife are sleeping. The wife is awakened by a noise, which the husband dismisses as Antonio snoring, while the wife thinks it sounds like moaning and chains being dragged along the floor. The husband replies: ¿Entonces que quieres que sea? ¿El fantasma de servicio? / Então o que é que queres que seja? O fantasma de serviço?

What is a fantasma de servicio? I know of course that servicio can mean (public) toilet, but in spite of Moaning Myrtle, that doesn't really make sense in context. Googling the Spanish version only gets two hits, which are of little help. Googling the Portuguese version gets three hits, two of which may suggest a "resident ghost" (nosso fantasma de serviço de Sta Comba Dão, fantasma de serviço no laboratório). Anyone able to shed more light on this? --NorwegianBlue ^talk 00:48, 28 December 2009 (UTC)[reply]

In (Spain-ish) Spanish, the expression "de turno" is used to mean approximately "on call" or "on duty," with the connotation that the person is ill-prepared to do the job s/he might be called up to do. I don't know why, but this strikes me as being something similar – the "ghost on duty" or whatever. This would be contextual if the wife in the story often believes in ghosts or spirits, and the husband routinely dismisses her concerns – he's saying that this is "just another ghost." Without knowing more about the story, I can't tell if I am off base or not. — æk^Talk 04:00, 28 December 2009 (UTC)[reply]

Thanks. There isn't much more to the story; the book+audio is made up of small episodes. The wife answers that she doesn't believe in ghosts, but that one never knows, and the husband persists in telling her to go to sleep. These google searches [4] [5] [6] suggest you're right. Note that the last one mostly gets South-American hits. It appears that farmacia de guardia is the preferred term in Spain (for pharmacies). Usually, in the Spanish translation, the book writes the literal meaning of a word in parentheses after the translation, so I would have expected ¿Entonces que quieres que sea? ¿El fantasma de turno (servicio)?. But they may have neglected doing so, perhaps because the meaning would be obvious to a Spanish speaker. --NorwegianBlue ^talk 09:03, 28 December 2009 (UTC)[reply]

Our Stottlemyre article says that it means "stuttering farmer", which given the number of people who are both farmers and stutterers has me wondering how it got to be such a common name, or "enlightened farmer". How did the "enlightened" bit creep in there? Was this some sort of old wives tale which claimed that people who stuttered were more intelligent than other non-stuttering people? Dismas|^(talk) 06:11, 28 December 2009 (UTC)[reply]

I think those are folk mythologies and fairytales. People who stutter have unusual obstructions in the pulmonic egressive airstream mechanism for correct pronunciations. So they have barriers in communication; they drop words that they cannot articulate and substitute words that they can articulate. —Mihkaw napéw (talk) 16:59, 28 December 2009 (UTC)[reply]

I think that the etymology in our article Stottlemyre is doubtful. The article says that the name is an americanized form of the German name Stadelmeyer and claims that the first element of that name is derived from the German dialect verb stotteln. In American English, the German word Stadel sounds like an americanized pronounciation of the verb root stottel-, but in German those two sound quite distinct. As a (non-native) speaker of German, it is not at all plausible to me that a German name Stadelmeyer could be derived from the word stotteln. Much more probable is a derivation from the word de:Stadel, which is a word meaning Scheune or "shed" (as in "toolshed"), and which is also the name of several villages in German-speaking countries. The original meaning of the word Meyer (or Meier) was something like "overseer" in English. (If you can read German, see de:Meier.) The Meyer was the person that a noble landowner employed to run an estate. Sometimes, the estate was leased to the Meyer, who would pay the landowner a yearly rent and keep a portion of the farm's earnings for himself. Meyer can also mean free farmer (as opposed to a serf). Often, villages in German-speaking countries take the name of the feudal estate on which they stood (or the estates took the name of the village that they controlled). To me, it seems most likely that Stadelmeyer means "the overseer of the Stadel estate" or perhaps "the free farmer of Stadel" (whose other residents might have been serfs). Marco polo (talk) 19:23, 28 December 2009 (UTC)[reply]

Apparently, Stadel also refers to a frame for drying hay, or a "hay rack", in some southern dialects of German. So a (free) farmer might have acquired the name Stadelmeyer if he were known for his hay production. Marco polo (talk) 23:58, 28 December 2009 (UTC)[reply]

Mihkaw, you seem to be implying that stuttering involves physical or physiological obstructions, but the article I linked to explicitly denies that. --ColinFine (talk) 00:10, 29 December 2009 (UTC)[reply]

I do not know. I have not read the details in depth, though I am curious sometimes about those who have capacities for good tones, capacities in animation for speech guises, and constrains in speech production. I agree that it is psychological (not physical) if people stutter occasionally who otherwise do not stutter. At the same time, I think, if there aren’t any involuntary obstructions in the egressive airstream mechanism for correct pronunciations, then there souldn’t be any speech problems. On the other matters of the OP, I do not have any comment. —Mihkaw napéw (talk) 01:47, 29 December 2009 (UTC)[reply]

Okay, my question wasn't about the reason why a person stutters. For that, I would have gone to the science desk. It seems that our article is entirely wrong given the more logical conjecture of Marco polo. It would be good if we had a reliable source though. Dismas|^(talk) 02:14, 29 December 2009 (UTC)[reply]

This reference desk is useful as wel if varieties of passive tones are captured and treated nicely with formal references. So I think, some edits with arguments (without references) are also good things. —Mihkaw napéw (talk) 02:43, 29 December 2009 (UTC)[reply]

I found this genealogical web page for the German family and sent an e-mail to the proprietor asking if he has any references for the meaning of the family name. I will let you know if I learn anything. Marco polo (talk) 03:12, 29 December 2009 (UTC)[reply]

Looking a little more closely at the links on Uwe Stadelmaier's web site, I see that he provides copies of a reliable source with a definition of the family's name. My conjectures were incorrect. It turns out that a Stadelmeier was a person who managed the warehouse of a wholesale merchant. (So, unlike the usual agricultural Meyer, who manages an agrarian estate, this was a commercial Meyer.) Here is the link to the page where the name is defined (in German). You will see that a Stadelmeier manages a Stadelhof, which is defined under the name Stadelhofer on the same page. This is page 650 of Volume 2 of the Etymologisches Wörterbuch der Deutschen Familiennamen by Prof. Josef Karlmann Brechenmacher, published by C.A. Starke Verlag, Limburg an der Lahn, 1963, according to these links: [7] [8]. So, a reliable source is better than a conjecture. Marco polo (talk) 03:26, 29 December 2009 (UTC)[reply]

May i get your help in correcting any errors in the following 10 sentences:

1. By reading this letter, i hope that you will be convinced.
2. Although a complete failure financially, I enjoyed taking part in our senior play.
3. After helping the girl onto the train, we began to chat.
4. After leaving Massawa, our trip took us through the northern coast of the Red Sea.
5. In order to be understood, proper artiiculation and pronounction are necessary.
6. I was told that I could get both a degree in designing and become a teacher.
7. She told me of her past and that she had recently come to the city because of her need for work.
8. When we go to the lake on weekends, I have to either sleep in the car or a broken down bed.
9. A song was written about this river that is still popular.
10. I have often heard said that experience is the best teacher.

txs for ur help —Preceding unsigned comment added by 196.200.103.10 (talk) 14:30, 28 December 2009 (UTC)[reply]

No it is not a home work. I am teaching my self English by acquiring different materials of different former college students. Hence, i am asking you, because I want to prove what i worked were correct.

Here are some hints, rather than actual corrections. In 1, 2, and 9, the subject of the first clause isn't the same as the subject of the second clause. (Who reads the letter? What was a financial failure? What is still popular?) 3 is similar - as it stands, it means that the people (plural) who helped the girl onto the train chatted with each other, which _might_ be what's intended; but it's wrong if you want to say that the person (single) who helped the girl onto the train chatted to her. In 4, an unidiomatic (not wrong, just not what a native speaker would say) word has been chosen. 5 has two words that are not spelled correctly, but is otherwise OK. In 6, one word should be in a different place. 7 is OK as it stands. 8 and 10 are missing a word ("in" for 8 and "it" for 10). Tevildo (talk) 15:27, 28 December 2009 (UTC)[reply]

8 also has a split infinitive. Whether or not this should be corrected is a debatable point, although your teacher will probably expect you to do it. :) Tevildo (talk) 15:41, 28 December 2009 (UTC)[reply]

The biggest problem with 8 is not the split infinitive but the lack of parallel structure between what follows "either" and what follows "or". You can correct both that problem and the split infinitive in one go by moving "either" to another position; you don't actually have to add any words at all. 4 has a similar problem to 1, 2, and 9: who's leaving Massawa? In 5 (in addition to the misspelled words), who is being understood? 7 might be considered to have problems with parallel structure too, although technically it works: "She told me (a) of her past and (b) that she had recently come to the city because of her need for work", though this might be considered a type of syllepsis. +Angr 16:21, 28 December 2009 (UTC)[reply]

I don't really think there's a failure of coordination in 8 - "I have to either [either to?] sleep in the car or [sleep in] a broken-down bed". Admittedly, moving "either" after "in" removes the need for explicitly including any part of the verb. 4, I think that "After the trip left Massawa" would be OK - replacement of "trip" with either "route" or "party" would make the coordination impeccable, and not change the meaning of the sentence. There's always a difference between what's _wrong_ and what's _imperfect_ in this sort of exercise, although there's probably only one "right answer". Tevildo (talk) 17:36, 28 December 2009 (UTC)[reply]

Prescriptively at least, in an "either X or Y" construction, the Y should make sense as a continuation of the sentence before the either. In other words, if you cross out "either X or", the sentence should still be grammatical. If you do that with sentence 8, you get "When we go to the lake on weekends, I have to either sleep in the car or a broken down bed", and *"I have to a broken down bed" isn't grammatical. +Angr 20:11, 28 December 2009 (UTC)[reply]

Actual homework or not, it would be helpful if you'd provide us what you've worked out. For example, there are spelling and capitalization errors throughout the list, but perhaps you are only concerned with grammar; although "in order to be understood, proper spelling and capitalization are necessary." --LarryMac | Talk 17:02, 28 December 2009 (UTC)[reply]

Or, here are few other options:

In 1, the sentence needs a subject that can correspond the second clause, like--In order to be understood a speech, proper articulation and pronunciation are necessary.

In 6, the correlative conjunction lacks parallelism; needs a parallel NP, like--I was told that I could get both a degree in designing and a position to become a teacher.

The 8 have options on split infinitive, like--When we go to the lake on weekends, I have to sleep either in the car or in a broken down bed.

The 10 is vague in terms of its subordination. An options would be--I have often heard the saying that 'experience is the best teacher'. —Mihkaw napéw (talk) 18:55, 28 December 2009 (UTC)[reply]

I'm afraid, Mihkaw, that your English fails you. "I have often heard saying that 'experience is the best teacher'" makes no sense in English at all. Perhaps the saying that or people saying (both a fair distance from the original). "A speech to be understood," while perhaps correct (it's not my area of expertise) sounds rather odd to a native speaker. - Jarry1250 ^{[Humorous? Discuss.]} 20:47, 28 December 2009 (UTC)[reply]

No, you are on the right track. It has to turn at least in the form like--I have often heard the saying of people that 'experience is the best teacher'. How does this sound to you? —Mihkaw napéw (talk) 21:13, 28 December 2009 (UTC)[reply]

As usual in English, there are several slightly different ways of saying this, each with subtly different shades of meaning. Your latest suggestion however, Mihkaw napéw, is not one that any native English speaker is likely to use (except in Science Fiction/Fantasy, because if it were assumed to be correctly complying with grammatical rules/idioms and not merely mistaken, it would imply that someone other than 'people' could have 'sayings', and even that the speaker is not him/her/itself a 'person'). Acceptable alternatives include (but are not limited to):

a/ I have often heard that 'experience . . .' (deliberately unspecific as to where the speaker has heard/read the quotation, so perhaps they're exaggerating);

b/ I have often heard the saying 'experience . . .' (here 'saying' is a noun with a similar meaning to 'proverb');

c/ I have often heard people saying 'experience . . .' (here 'saying' is a verb in (I think) the present continuous tense, and would imply the quotation is so long that the speaker often hears only part of it being said);

d/ I have often heard people say 'experience . . .' (with the verb 'say' in the present simple tense; a straightforward statement with no obvious implied extra meanings)

e/ I have often heard it said that 'experience . . .' (here the 'it' is the Dummy pronoun common in English, and the sentence overall combines the unspecificy of a/ with the straightforwardness of d/, and is also closest to the OP's original wording. 87.81.230.195 (talk) 23:23, 28 December 2009 (UTC)[reply]

The sentences seem all right, but they are missing few elements. What I can say is this: a) is correct; in b), the word ‘saying’ is a verbal (so if it modifies a proverb, the phrase becomes AdjP); c) needs a new subject and coordination if the word ‘saying’ is a verb; d) and e) have similar problems. —Mihkaw napéw (talk) 00:44, 29 December 2009 (UTC)[reply]

Mihkaw, as a different native speaker of English to the one you are correcting, I tell you that b, c, d and e are good English. In b), the word 'saying' is a noun. The noun 'saying' means 'proverb': it does not modify a proverb. The word 'saying' can also be a form of the verb 'to say', as it is in c). However, it is the noun that is used in b). I would perhaps punctuate the examples slightly differently than the above user, but that largely comes down to taste. 86.176.48.114 (talk) 01:19, 29 December 2009 (UTC)[reply]

Yes, I myself would in practice probably punctuate those sentences a little differently, but I was trying to stay close to the OP's original example and to minimise punctuation so as to emphasise the grammatical aspects, rather than getting hung up on house/personal style variations. Thanks for the support, 86. 87.81.230.195 (talk) 17:47, 29 December 2009 (UTC)[reply]

Not really, but I do not have any further comment on this. OK, Sir. —Mihkaw napéw (talk) 01:56, 29 December 2009 (UTC)[reply]

Nos 2,3,4,5 are examples of sentences that some people count as 'wrong', especially in formal contexts, but many native English speakers would say. 1. is similar, but sounds a little bit more awkward to me, perhaps because by its nature it must be written rather than spoken. --ColinFine (talk) 00:06, 29 December 2009 (UTC)[reply]

I need to turn the following paragraph from indirect speech to direct speech. ( He told me that he liked to know what everybody else knew and that, besides, he wanted to learn Latin. I replied that I could not think why anybody should learn Latin. He asked me if I didn't know that Latin was part of the education of a gentleman.)

I also need to turn the the following direct speech to turn into indirect speech. ( "Did you come by train?" said Mary. "No, I came by car," said John. "But how is it you are not at school?" The holidays have not begun yet," said she. Father wanted me at home," Said he. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 196.200.103.10 (talk) 14:43, 28 December 2009 (UTC)[reply]

Please do your own homework.

Welcome to the Wikipedia Reference Desk. Your question appears to be a homework question. I apologize if this is a misinterpretation, but it is our aim here not to do people's homework for them, but to merely aid them in doing it themselves. Letting someone else do your homework does not help you learn nearly as much as doing it yourself. Please attempt to solve the problem or answer the question yourself first. If you need help with a specific part of your homework, feel free to tell us where you are stuck and ask for help. If you need help grasping the concept of a problem, by all means let us know.

No it is not a home work. I am teaching my self English by acquiring different materials of different former college students. Hence, i am asking you, because I want to prove what i worked were correct. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 196.200.103.10 (talk) 15:08, 28 December 2009 (UTC)[reply]

OK, tell us what you worked out. Hint: The answer to the first one should read something like: He said, "xxxxx". I replied, "xxxx". He then asked me, "xxxxx".--Shantavira|^{feed me} 17:54, 28 December 2009 (UTC)[reply]

I suggest you see the example in Direct speech in case you have a problem with the concepts. --Lgriot (talk) 00:11, 29 December 2009 (UTC)[reply]

When I speak about digital image degradation due to image compression artifacts, is it acceptable to say something like this: "The artifacted photo is so bad, I don't want to print it." Would I use artifaced? --70.167.58.6 (talk) 23:36, 28 December 2009 (UTC)[reply]

It may not have found its way into the dictionaries, but this and this scientific papers use it, and this 1981 book uses it in the title (albeit meaning "artificial" rather than "containing artifacts"). It's _defensible_ rather than correct, at the moment, but I can't think of an obvious one-word alternative. "Artifact-laden", if you don't want to be linguistically controversial? Tevildo (talk) 23:46, 28 December 2009 (UTC)[reply]

Ooops, sorry. Those references are for "artifacted". "Artifaced" has nothing equivalent to support it. Tevildo (talk) 23:47, 28 December 2009 (UTC)[reply]

"Artifaced" is not a good Classical-derived word, because it doesn't really follow the conventional patterns of correspondences involved in adapting Latin forms into English, and it suggests a direct and immediate connection with the word "face" which doesn't exist. If you want a shortened version of "artifacted" which somewhat follows the rules, it would be actually "artified" (though of course that isn't a real word either)... AnonMoos (talk) 00:09, 29 December 2009 (UTC)[reply]

Mind you, those conventional patterns haven't stopped people from making up their own rules about some words, such as 'appendix' dropping the -ix when it becomes, in some countries, 'appendectomy' (rather than 'appendicectomy'). 'Index', on the other hand, always retains the ending in 'indices' or 'indexes'; it's never indes). I'd better stop now; I'm liable to develop some complices.  :) -- Jack of Oz ... speak! ... 01:57, 29 December 2009 (UTC)[reply]

I think classical purists might object to "Appendectomy" more on the basis of it being a mixed Latin-Greek word, rather than to the haplology (which is also seen in "Gynocracy" for "Gynecocracy" etc.) AnonMoos (talk) 11:46, 29 December 2009 (UTC)[reply]

"Artificed" might work. ←Baseball Bugs ^{What's up, Doc?} carrots→ 02:08, 29 December 2009 (UTC)[reply]

Part of the trouble is the origin of "artifact", which is "artis + factum", "art + made", the later from "facere", "to make". "Artifice" is also a noun. There's apparently no "official" verb form of these words, although "artificed" sounds more like a proper verb than "artifacted" does. "Fact", by itself, also comes from "facere", and similarly lacks a verb form. However, there is the noun "facture", "a making", with the verb form "manufacture" (to make by hand). That suggests "artifacture" (to make by art or skill), although I don't think that's a word either. ←Baseball Bugs ^{What's up, Doc?} carrots→ 02:21, 29 December 2009 (UTC)[reply]

In Latin, "facto, factare, factavi, factatus" could theoretically be an iterative or frequentative type of verb -- though the actually-occurring frequentative of facere is "factito, factitare, factitavi, factitatus"... AnonMoos (talk) 11:46, 29 December 2009 (UTC)[reply]

On this general topic, the term "counterfeit" came up at the humanities desk.[9] The "feit" part comes from "facere" via the French "faire", which means "to make". Side note: The Spanish equivalent is "hacer", as the soft "f" evolved into an even softer, and eventually silent, "h". ←Baseball Bugs ^{What's up, Doc?} carrots→ 18:44, 29 December 2009 (UTC)[reply]

What's a good website where I can learn Klingon for free? --75.50.52.102 (talk) 01:39, 29 December 2009 (UTC)[reply]

It's possible wikipedia has an article on the subject, but I simply went to google and entered [klingon language] and this website[10] was the first one on the list. It seems to have at least some basics. ←Baseball Bugs ^{What's up, Doc?} carrots→ 01:44, 29 December 2009 (UTC)[reply]

Because Klingon (Tlh'ingan Hol) is a conlang, it's actually under copyright, unlike most languages, which are nobody's property. For this reason, one can't simply write one's own Klingon Language Course. It's a bit of an unusual situation. All natural languages, and most other conlangs are, for want of a better word, open-source. There aren't restrictions on teaching and learning, for the most part. Some natural languages (such as Australian aboriginal languages and other indigenous languages of the world) do have some restrictions due to understandings of cultural possession and connections to spirituality. Steewi (talk) 03:41, 29 December 2009 (UTC)[reply]

I'd like to see a RS ref that it's actually under copyright. AFAIK, one can't copyright a language or a script. kwami (talk) 06:19, 29 December 2009 (UTC)[reply]

Our own article (not a reliable source, presumably, but a start) says "Paramount Pictures owns a copyright to the official dictionary and other canonical descriptions of the language. No challenge has been brought to court." I assume this would mean you can't go around publishing your own dictionaries and textbooks. Adam Bishop (talk) 07:12, 29 December 2009 (UTC)[reply]

Okrent, Arika (2009). In the Land of Invented Languages. Spiegel & Grau. ISBN 978-0-385-52788-0. Page 228:

"There is one invented language that is essentially owned by a private company, though the terms of ownership have not been tested in court: Klingon is protected by a trademark held by Paramount Pictures."

--ColinFine (talk) 10:12, 29 December 2009 (UTC)[reply]

Okay, but trademark protection is completely different from copyright protection. +Angr 11:02, 29 December 2009 (UTC)[reply]

The term "Klingon" would be the trademark. The language itself would be copyrighted. Obviously, a language is not a trademark. ←Baseball Bugs ^{What's up, Doc?} carrots→ 12:09, 29 December 2009 (UTC)[reply]

Are there any other copyrighted conlangs? --84.62.197.235 (talk) 17:05, 29 December 2009 (UTC)[reply]

IANAL, but any conlang which has been invented in the past hundred years or so and which hasn't been explicitly released to the public domain is necessarily copyrighted. The author might not complain about your use of the language (they'd probably be rather happy about it), but it's still copyrighted. Marnanel (talk) 17:17, 29 December 2009 (UTC)[reply]

I challenge that. Languages are not copyrightable. Companies can purport to hold a copyright on them, which Paramount is currently purporting. The copyright office in the US will just register the copyright on their dictionary without comment. The dictionary itself is copyrightable but facts are not; in this case the words of the fake language are the facts. As stated above, this fake copyright has not been tested in court. Comet Tuttle (talk) 18:14, 29 December 2009 (UTC)[reply]

(after ec) Quoting further from Okrent (op. cit., p. 227): "Brown claimed he owned the rights to the vocabulary of Loglan. Did he? Brown did have copyrights on his books, incluiding the dictionary. But copyright does not extend to each individual word in a copyrighted work ... Would it have been possible for him to copyright each Loglan word separately? Perhaps, but he didn't ... Can the rules of a languae be owned? Probably not ... There is, however, some blur in this area within the murky world of software patents, so given the right lawyer and the right judge, who knows?" --ColinFine (talk) 18:19, 29 December 2009 (UTC)[reply]

I take your point, but what does "Would it have been possible for him to copyright each Loglan word separately? Perhaps, but he didn't" mean? It's not as though copyrighting something involves a deliberate action. You have copyright in your creation from the moment it exists in tangible form. Marnanel (talk) 18:30, 29 December 2009 (UTC)[reply]

To give a possible answer to the question about conlangs with lawyers and money behind them, I think the most obvious parallel is with Tolkien's conlangs. I'd like to see what would happen if someone published a new creative work which had sections written in the Arda languages but leaned on no other part of the Tolkien corpus. Marnanel (talk) 18:35, 29 December 2009 (UTC)[reply]

I think Blissymbolics may be copyrighted. If I remember the story correctly, Mr. Bliss spent a lot of time and money trying to popularize his symbols, to no avail. A teacher at the Ontario school mentioned in the wiki article was digging through some old materials and found his symbols, and realized they could be used at their school for students as a introductory step before teaching them to read. When Bliss found this out he was overjoyed, bought tickets to Canada to visit them and went around talking everyone up at the school and trying to charm them. As time went on, he got violently upset that they weren't using his symbols 'correctly'. They were 'corrupting' them, etc. He tried taking legal action and caused a mess for a long time. Finally, the school decided it was best to just 'buy' the rights to his symbols so that he couldn't harass them anymore. Bliss promptly spent the money on publishing a large number of reference manuals to Blissymbolics. There were more details in the "In the Land of Invented Languages" book that Colin Fine quoted above. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 216.165.132.252 (talk) 23:19, 30 December 2009 (UTC)[reply]

Back to the earlier question about Klingon copyright, I'm pretty sure it's possible to copyright the dictionaries and the grammar description but not the language itself (otherwise you would be violating copyright whenever you spoke the language). The only other way I could imagine it being an issue would be if, for example, I made a movie in which people spoke Klingon and I made a lot of money off of it. For what it's worth, the language copyright issue issue also came up (briefly) just a couple days ago at WP:Articles for deletion/Na'vi language. rʨanaɢ ^talk/_contribs 02:00, 31 December 2009 (UTC)[reply]

I'm not so sure about that. Dictionaries of all kinds of languages are copyrighted, but the language itself is not; it's in the public domain. However, Klingon is not in the public domain unless its inventors have declared it to be - it's a work of fiction, hence as copyrightable as anything. They couldn't stop you from talking Klingon with someone, but if you tried to profit from it, I would think it's likely they could enjoin you from doing so. ←Baseball Bugs ^{What's up, Doc?} carrots→ 02:07, 31 December 2009 (UTC)[reply]

What does "le desordre c'est moi" mean? I thought Babelfish would tell me but I don't really understand the result. Thanks, Dismas|^(talk) 13:05, 29 December 2009 (UTC)[reply]

It's a play on the famous phrase "L'état c'est moi" (Louis XIV of France#Quotes)... AnonMoos (talk) 13:14, 29 December 2009 (UTC)[reply]

And it means: "Chaos is me" or "I am chaos". Also, it's spelled "désordre". --Xuxl (talk) 15:37, 29 December 2009 (UTC)[reply]

Actually, both those translations might be considered inadequate to fully render the connotative force of the original French construction (and "chaos is me" is kind of distractingly similar to "woe is me"); that's why "L'état, c'est moi" is often left untranslated in English-language works... AnonMoos (talk) 20:10, 29 December 2009 (UTC)[reply]

Thanks, all! Dismas|^(talk) 11:24, 30 December 2009 (UTC)[reply]

The context:

"Thank you, sir. God bless you." "Gods have nothing to do with this. You're welcome."

God bless you would be: 上帝保佑你. In that, 上帝 is used as "god", pronounced "shangdi". -- kainaw™ 16:28, 29 December 2009 (UTC)[reply]

Yes, but what about the question? Thanks. 67.243.1.21 (talk) 18:47, 29 December 2009 (UTC)[reply]

What question? It asked to translate "gods" into Chinese within a specific context. In that context, the translation is 上帝. -- kainaw™ 20:36, 29 December 2009 (UTC)[reply]

The full translation might be something along the lines of 上帝不管这个 or 这和上帝没有关系, but without more context (specifically, what "this" is), it's hard to say. rʨanaɢ ^talk/_contribs 20:39, 29 December 2009 (UTC)[reply]

I don't find that to be a good translation as the second speaker does not appear to subscribe to the monotheism of the first speaker. 67.243.1.21 (talk) 00:08, 30 December 2009 (UTC)[reply]

The plural is not expressed like that in Chinese, so there's no straightforward way to give that impression anyway. And personally I don't see that to be an important part of the original English either. rʨanaɢ ^talk/_contribs 02:09, 30 December 2009 (UTC)[reply]

If you attempt to change it from a monotheistic god to some sort of random collection of sub-gods (in order to make the joke), it will be completely lost in Chinese. There are many words for "god". So, the response will use a completely different word for "dieties" or "spirits" instead of "god". It is similar to translating a bad Chinese pun into English and getting: "How old is your son?" "He's four." "Oh, I'm so sorry for asking." (I'm sure all the Chinese speakers are cringing at such a pathetic pun!) -- kainaw™ 02:50, 30 December 2009 (UTC)[reply]

That was horrific, in both senses of the word! :) --KageTora - (影虎) (Talk?) 11:46, 30 December 2009 (UTC)[reply]

Tetraphobia, for those who are wondering... AnonMoos (talk) 00:01, 31 December 2009 (UTC)[reply]

It was not an attempt at a joke; believe me, I know better ones. I simply wanted to make a point. 67.243.1.21 (talk) 00:16, 31 December 2009 (UTC)[reply]

It's been suggested to me "这和诸神无关系". It sounds good. What do you think? 67.243.1.21 (talk) 14:34, 1 January 2010 (UTC)[reply]

My Microsoft Winsows computer often tells me this. Shouldn't it be "Automatic updates are turned off"? You might say that "Automatic Updates" is a singluar piece of software, but automatic updates seems more like a verb or process that would happen more than once, and hence should have a plural. 84.13.181.49 (talk) 18:16, 29 December 2009 (UTC)[reply]

Well, it's one of two possibilities. It's either that "Automatic updates" is, as you say, the name of a specific feature or piece of software, or it's another example of Microsoft software being illogical because the programmers didn't think it through. Why, for example, must you press the "start" button to turn the computer off? — Ƶ§œš¹ _{[aɪm ˈfɻɛ̃ⁿdˡi]} 19:38, 29 December 2009 (UTC)[reply]

I loathe Windows as much as any other Mac user, but I don't have a problem with that last one. You press 'start' to start the process of turning the thing off. --Richardrj ^{talk email} 20:10, 29 December 2009 (UTC)[reply]

I wish everyone didn't blame the programmers for the shortcomings of the UI designers. Marnanel (talk) 19:59, 29 December 2009 (UTC)[reply]

Here's another example of a technical writer forgetting a cardinal rule: "Keep your audience in mind". I have to enter my email address and password to access my emails. On that page, there's a separate box for each of these 2 bits of information. Underneath is the legend: Please note that email address and password is case sensitive.

To normal humans, they're two things, so the verb can only be "are". But obviously to a programmer, they're part of the same overall piece of data, because case sensitivity will apply either to both (sub-)pieces of information or to neither.

Another one that used to have me tearing my hair out every time I saw the ad on TV: "Whether you're at home or out on the job, your local Telstra shop are here to help you". The rationale seemed to be that there were many physical shops, in many different locations, and they were all there to help their local communities, so it was a plural thing. But to refer to them collectively as "your local Telstra shop" and still use the plural verb - I can only assume the ad was written by someone who was not a native speaker of English. Or maybe it was a cunning ploy to get the audience's attention. It worked. -- Jack of Oz ... speak! ... 20:07, 29 December 2009 (UTC)[reply]

"But obviously to a programmer, they're part of the same overall piece of data," ^{[citation needed]} --LarryMac | Talk 20:22, 29 December 2009 (UTC)[reply]

Well, what else could explain someone writing "A and B is ..." rather than "A and B are ..."? -- Jack of Oz ... speak! ... 20:31, 29 December 2009 (UTC)[reply]

Off the top of my head I can think of a) non-native English speaking programmers and b) incorrect design. But to state "obviously" how a programmer thinks is just wrong. As a programmer-American who has written on or two log in routines, I can't imagine how anybody would write a functional system that could treat user name and password as a single data element. --LarryMac | Talk 20:48, 29 December 2009 (UTC)[reply]

In that case, I withdraw my outrageous slur against programmers. -- Jack of Oz ... speak! ... 20:56, 29 December 2009 (UTC)[reply]

I can easily imagine someone half-remembering a teacher telling them that "is" follows a singular noun, and saying to themselves, "well, 'password' is a singular noun..." Marnanel (talk) 20:38, 29 December 2009 (UTC)[reply]

To answer the OP's question, "Automatic Updates" is indeed the name of the service, and so it's technically correct to say "Automatic Updates is disabled" (cf "The Merry Wives of Windsor is not one of Shakespeare's greatest plays", although italics would probably be used in that case). I can also see another reason - in disabling Automatic Updates, you've disabled automatic updating for _Windows_, but not for any other application. Someone might read "Automatic updates are disabled" as implying that _all_ automatic updates are disabled, which isn't the case. Of course, Microsoft's choice of name for the service is open to criticism for the reasons mentioned above, but there's little anyone can do about that. Tevildo (talk) 20:58, 29 December 2009 (UTC)[reply]

@JackOfOz: it is common in British English to refer to a collective such as a government, a committee, or a shop with a singular or plural verb, depending on whether it is being regarded in context as an entity or a bunch of people. I know that this is not customary in the US, but I thought Australian agreed with British here - perhaps I'm wrong. Certainly to me, 'your local Telstra shop are there to help you' is unexceptionable. Pinker, discussing a text from a particular subject in The Language Instinct, notes that "My bank are awful" is grammatical in British English, and I concur. --ColinFine (talk) 21:11, 29 December 2009 (UTC)[reply]

I concur. Hence, the cabinet is meeting today but the cabinet are divided. (Of course, the latter should be impossible.) Here, "Automatic Updates is" is the other side of a coin of common usage - the other being "Norwich City are". On a side note, "Red Hot Chili Peppers"- singular, or plural? - Jarry1250 ^{[Humorous? Discuss.]} 21:18, 29 December 2009 (UTC)[reply]

I understand the above, but this is a different case. The name of each shop was "Telstra Shop". They were all operated by Telstra. There were many of them, in different locations. Each one was, to its local community, the "local Telstra Shop". Each local Telstra Shop serviced one and only one local community. One could think of the Telstra Shop as a single nation-wide organisation (is) or as many different outlets (are), but when it comes to talking about local Telstra Shops, that's different. So, the options were:

• "The Telstra Shop is/are here to help you", or
• "Your local Telstra Shop is here to help you", or
• "Your local Telstra Shops are here to help you".

They were like local branches of a bank; one might say "The bank is .." or "The bank are ...", depending on the context, but one would never say "Your local branch of XYZ Bank are always at your service". Would one? -- Jack of Oz ... speak! ... 21:45, 29 December 2009 (UTC)[reply]

I probably wouldn't, but I might say "Your local branch of XYZ Bank are always at your service" if I had a point to make about the staff (i.e. a plural by implication). I think, in reality, that it's all down to choice, context etc. - Jarry1250 ^{[Humorous? Discuss.]} 21:51, 29 December 2009 (UTC)[reply]

"The local HSBC have contributed £1000 to the fund". That looks OK to me (BrE). Not "The local HSBC branch", though. Tevildo (talk) 22:25, 29 December 2009 (UTC)[reply]

"The branch has" and "The branch have" are both fine for me, as a Brit. As said before, it all depends on whether the speaker sees the branch as a single entity or a collection of staff members. I would think, for me, at least, that the plural verb in this case suggests familiarity and therefore friendliness, this could be why 'your local Telstra Shop are' was used in this case, to suggest this sort of closeness and friendliness. --KageTora - (影虎) (Talk?) 11:43, 30 December 2009 (UTC)[reply]

I saw the following on the back of a car the other day:

БОГ ЕСТь ЛЮБОВь -- ИОАННО 4:8

In Russian, are the names Ivan and Ioanno considered two different names? Woogee (talk) 22:09, 29 December 2009 (UTC)[reply]

Perhaps "Ioanno" is used specifically for the Evangelist, as it is here? Adam Bishop (talk) 00:35, 30 December 2009 (UTC)[reply]

I found these Russian versions of 1 John 4:8 online.

• 1-e Иоанна 4 Russian Synodal Text
• 1-e Иоанна 4 Russian koi8r
• Russian Version (KOI8-R Encoding)- Book of 1 John Chapter 4
• Библия онлайн: 1 Иоанна 4:1-21 Священное Писание — Перевод нового мира - Официальный веб-сайт Свидетелей Иеговы

-- Wavelength (talk) 01:35, 30 December 2009 (UTC)[reply]

Иоанн (Ioann) is the original Slavonic version of what is generally now written Иван (Ivan = John). It was derived from the Old Greek name Ioannes. Ioann is still used in relation to religious figures such as John the Evangelist. For example, the Russian equivalent of Gospel of John is Евангелие от Иоанна (Иоанн appears here in the genitive case, Иоанна, being governed by the preposition от).

Tsar Ivan IV of Russia ("Ivan the Terrible") was a Ioann in his day, as were various others, and that form is still occasionally seen in reference to him - such as in A. K. Tolstoy's 1898 play Tsar Fyodor Ioannovich, about Ivan's son Tsar Fyodor I, whose patronymic is now usually given as Ivanovich.

Ioanno might be some antique oblique case, or maybe just a mis-spelling. -- Jack of Oz ... speak! ... 07:39, 30 December 2009 (UTC)[reply]

What is the word that describes the perception of a face in a crisp? Kittybrewster ☎ 10:54, 30 December 2009 (UTC)[reply]

Pareidolia? +Angr 11:06, 30 December 2009 (UTC)[reply]

Spot on. thank you, my mind went blank. Kittybrewster ☎ 11:23, 30 December 2009 (UTC)[reply]

Actually, so did mine. I just googled "seeing human faces" and Wikipedia's article on Pareidolia was the first hit. +Angr 15:02, 30 December 2009 (UTC)[reply]

There's also Simulacrum.Paul Davidson (talk) 11:30, 30 December 2009 (UTC)[reply]

Usage problem; this is my (US English) initial attempt at distinguishing two different meanings of "behalf":

• The deacon presented the "Outstanding Student" award on behalf of the faculty committee.
• Only one neighbor came to testify in the accused's behalf.

Is the choice of preposition (on vs. in) a matter of sentence structure alone, or are they associated with the two different meanings? If the latter, would the second sentence be correctly rewritten as:

• Only one neighbor came to testify in behalf of the accused.

Searching the web, I came up with this line cited on the Washington Post 's "D.C. Wire" quoting the Los Angeles Times (so I'm not sure which style sheet applies):

• "...R., who once served on the board of the S....... school, spoke on behalf of J. [who was accused of misconduct]..."

Consulting Webster's 10th Collegiate online, I got (and failed to comprehend) this:

• : interest, benefit; also : support, defense <argued in his behalf>
• — on behalf of or in behalf of : in the interest of; also : as a representative of
• usage A body of opinion favors in with the “interest, benefit” sense of behalf and on with the “support, defense” sense. This distinction has been observed by some writers but overall has never had a sound basis in actual usage. In current British use, on behalf (of) has replaced in behalf (of); both are still used in American English, but the distinction is frequently not observed.

What are we to make of all this? -- Deborahjay (talk) 11:58, 30 December 2009 (UTC)[reply]

I doubt it'll help, but BrEng would never use "in", always "on": "on someone's behalf", "on behalf of someone". AmEng seems to suggest "on" with a legal sense, in the least. I'm struggling to see a "interest, benefit" sense of "behalf" TBH. - Jarry1250 ^{[Humorous? Discuss.]} 12:15, 30 December 2009 (UTC)[reply]

As an American English speaker, I will weigh in by saying that in behalf is not part of my repertoire. I would not think of using the preposition in with behalf in any context. I accept the evidence that in is sometimes used, but I strongly doubt that most American English speakers would use one preposition for one set of meanings and another for a second set of meanings. Marco polo (talk) 14:13, 30 December 2009 (UTC)[reply]

In these cases, the usage of these prepositions is very difficult to detect in terms of their intented meanings. I am not sure but there might be some variations to refer a temporal cause of event as salient and permanent versus the agent in question is not central to a meaning. That is--

• ‘I am writing in behalf of Mr. X’ is to mean that I will remain the agent for Mr. X.
• ‘I am writing on behalf of Mr. X’ is to mean that I am the agent for Mr. X at the time of an event.

If this is not the case, then it is difficult (i think) to make any other meaningful assumptions about utterances that make differences in prepositional ostentation. —Mihkaw napéw (talk) 17:40, 30 December 2009 (UTC)[reply]

Solving a cryptic crossword, I came across the clue "Joining the team, act on gin mixture likely to befuddle" for which the answer somehow came out as INTOXICATING. I can see a partial anagram in "act on gin," but that leaves the letters "TIXI" unaccounted for, and I can't see how to get that from "Joining the team." Can anyone help me out here? Thx, It's been emotional (talk) 14:12, 30 December 2009 (UTC)[reply]

I would suspect it's a reference to the Big 12, but I don't know American football well enough to know if it's obvious to call that "the team". Tevildo (talk) 14:20, 30 December 2009 (UTC)[reply]

Ah, no, it's a cricket team. Joining "INTO" the team "XI" act (on) gin (mixture) "CATING". Tevildo (talk) 14:23, 30 December 2009 (UTC)[reply]

Could equally be a football team. --Dweller (talk) 14:30, 30 December 2009 (UTC)[reply]

(after ec) Thanks, Tevildo, because I was just about to say it looked like a cricket team, since the term "the XI" is often used for the 11 players. The rest I still couldn't figure out, perhaps because I was unaware of just how obscure they were willing to be. I guess it's fair with anagram clues. It's been emotional (talk) 14:45, 30 December 2009 (UTC)[reply]

I + XI = XII. There are XI members in teams in a number of sports, and adding I is equivalent in meaning to "joining the team". --TammyMoet (talk) 16:28, 30 December 2009 (UTC)[reply]

Is the “XI” in “London XI” derived from the fact that a soccer team has 11 members? --84.62.205.233 (talk) 17:16, 30 December 2009 (UTC)[reply]

I've never heard "XI" used to refer to a football team. Cricket, yes. Marnanel (talk) 17:19, 30 December 2009 (UTC)[reply]

True, "XI" on its own usually refers to a cricket team (and "XV" to rugby union), but London XI was a soccer team, and the XI does refer to the number of members. Tevildo (talk) 17:43, 30 December 2009 (UTC)[reply]

(e/c) Not true: "XI" is sometimes used in a football context, although it is not common. As an example, the 1955–58 Inter-Cities Fairs Cup had several teams that represented cities, because of a rule that only one club from each city could attend. Cities with several clubs got around this rule by choosing the best players and sending one side. Xenon54 / talk / 17:48, 30 December 2009 (UTC)[reply]

I don't think Tammy Moet's suggestion is relevant. Tevildo has given a correct and complete answer IMO. --ColinFine (talk) 19:03, 30 December 2009 (UTC)[reply]

Hey, it's a cryptic crossword and I gave you how I would arrive at the answer! What's irrelevant about that? There's usually more than one way to arrive at the answer to a cryptic clue! --TammyMoet (talk) 11:15, 31 December 2009 (UTC)[reply]

Ya gotta luv it when they criticize free advice. Meanwhile, cryptic books I've run into usually explain the answer in addition to just giving it. I wonder if the OP should maybe find a better crypic book. ←Baseball Bugs ^{What's up, Doc?} carrots→ 11:39, 31 December 2009 (UTC)[reply]

No, ColinFine is correct and Tammy Moet's suggestion was not only irrelevant but incorrect, since it doesn't operate in accordance with the accepted methods of giving cryptic clues. There is most certainly not "more than one way to arrive at the answer". And you can't get to this answer with it anyway. As for the ever-chatty Bugs' contribution, why do you assume it was a book? It was almost certainly a crossword in a newspaper, which only prints the solution the next day without explanations. --Richardrj ^{talk email} 11:44, 31 December 2009 (UTC)[reply]

Tammy's suggestion was not correct, Colin's comment was rude, and if the newspaper doesn't explain it, then maybe get a different newspaper. Cryptics are fun and challenging. But if they don't explain it, then you can't learn anything from it. ←Baseball Bugs ^{What's up, Doc?} carrots→ 12:23, 31 December 2009 (UTC)[reply]

No, Colin's comment was not rude, it was a perfectly sensible intervention. And there is no newspaper in the world, AFAIK, that publishes explanations for its own cryptic crosswords. There are books and websites you can read if you want to learn how to do them, or you can just work them out for yourself. --Richardrj ^{talk email} 12:33, 31 December 2009 (UTC)[reply]

Yes, it was rude, as you should be able to discern by Tammy's defensive response. He could have simply said it was incorrect. On the other hand, they could probably both defend themselves, they don't need us to do it for them. And the mere fact the OP posted here indicates the shortcoming of the newspaper's explanation. "XI" to mean "team" is pretty freakin' obscure. ←Baseball Bugs ^{What's up, Doc?} carrots→ 12:39, 31 December 2009 (UTC)[reply]

Not in countries that are not America. Malcolm XIV (talk) 12:44, 31 December 2009 (UTC)[reply]

Welcome back from your vacation. I'm a baseball fan, but if "IX" were the clue it wouldn't suggest "team" to me. It likely is a cultural thing, as indicated below. It's unfortunate if papers don't cover the explanations. Puzzle books typically do, hence it's possible to learn from them. But I would think newspapers would at least give the breakdown: INTO + XI + CATING in this case. ←Baseball Bugs ^{What's up, Doc?} carrots→ 12:52, 31 December 2009 (UTC)[reply]

Unfortunately, this is all you get. Marnanel (talk) 12:58, 31 December 2009 (UTC)[reply]

Obviously that makes it more of a challenge, but insufficient as a learning experience. :( ←Baseball Bugs ^{What's up, Doc?} carrots→ 13:15, 31 December 2009 (UTC)[reply]

I suggest it's a cultural thing. In the UK it's reasonably common to write "the first XI" to mean a school's primary cricket team, or "the second XV" for rugby, and so on. The clue is not particularly obscure (and there wouldn't have been an explanation). Marnanel (talk) 12:43, 31 December 2009 (UTC)[reply]

I've never heard of a newspaper publishing explanations (as opposed to solutions) either. I first started buying my own daily newspaper at the age of twenty or so almost purely so that I could read the cryptic solutions day by day and work out the rules by induction. Marnanel (talk) 12:41, 31 December 2009 (UTC)[reply]

We have a reference to this in the article 11_(number)#In_sports --Dweller (talk) 13:25, 31 December 2009 (UTC)[reply]

XI, although it doesn't redirect to that page, lists it. Interestingly, the OP got the XI reference but was confused by the anagram. Cryptic writers love those anagrams. ←Baseball Bugs ^{What's up, Doc?} carrots→ 13:34, 31 December 2009 (UTC)[reply]

I'm sorry if Tammy found my reply rude: it was not intended to be, but a straightforward statement of my opinion. --ColinFine (talk) 17:16, 31 December 2009 (UTC)[reply]

For a few days, I had thought that Bugs seen here, had his account hacked by someone with half a brain and a sense of respect for the reference desk. I have now returned to my senses. Football Insects (talk) 19:40, 31 December 2009 (UTC)[reply]

Sorry that I can't be more specific. For all I know it's completely decorative and means nothing, but I'm still curious. http://i50.tinypic.com/11u8gpi.jpg —Preceding unsigned comment added by 202.10.93.219 (talk) 18:27, 30 December 2009 (UTC)[reply]

功夫: Chinese for Kung fu. rʨanaɢ ^talk/_contribs 18:37, 30 December 2009 (UTC)[reply]

Thank you kindly, sir and/or madam. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 202.10.93.219 (talk) 20:04, 30 December 2009 (UTC)[reply]

and/or ?? or, I think. Kittybrewster ☎ 12:32, 31 December 2009 (UTC)[reply]

In reading the translation above regarding "God bless you", I stopped to consider the expression. My first observation was that this is ungrammatical as the subject and verb do not agree. Changing it to agree would produce "God blesses you". Upon further thought, though, I suppose it would make more sense to interpret it as an abbreviation for "[May] God bless you". However, trying this with similar sentences does not produce grammatically acceptable sentences: "May the priest bless you" -> *"The priest bless you", "May she win the gold" -> *"She win the gold" etc. Are there any other common expressions or constructions that permit exemption of grammatical agreement? 124.214.131.55 (talk) 18:57, 30 December 2009 (UTC)[reply]

"God bless you" is short for "May God bless you". As with the implied "may" in the song "God Bless America". In effect, you're praying for God to bless. You don't need to pray to the priest to bless. You just go ask him. You might also get the argument that "God" is a trinity, hence He's both a singular and a plural. ←Baseball Bugs ^{What's up, Doc?} carrots→ 19:02, 30 December 2009 (UTC)[reply]

The wording "God bless [whatever]" also has the unfortunate effect of appearing to be issuing an order to God. "Yo! God! Bless America! Ya hear?" God may listen, but He does not take orders. I recall Red Skelton used to end his programs with, "Good night, and may God bless." That's more proper usage. ←Baseball Bugs ^{What's up, Doc?} carrots→ 19:05, 30 December 2009 (UTC)[reply]

God bless you is a fossilized instance of a subjunctive construction expressing an optative or hortative mood. It is only used this way in fixed phrases, usually religious in nature, such as God bless..., God save..., God forbid..., Heaven forbid. Historically, it would have been possible to say The priest bless you. However, that is no longer part of the grammar of modern English. Marco polo (talk) 19:09, 30 December 2009 (UTC)[reply]

(after edit conflict) 'God bless you' may be short for 'May God bless you' in today's English, but it was not when the expression came into use, nor is there a lack of grammatical agreement. It is an example of the present subjunctive, now rare in English, though still found in subordinate clauses in some formal contexts, eg "we demand that the question be put". It is extremely rare in main clauses, generally only in set phrases such as 'God bless ...', 'heaven help ... ' and 'long live ... '

It is also not an imperative, and there is nothing improper about it, Baseball Bugs --ColinFine (talk) 19:11, 30 December 2009 (UTC)[reply]

But it sounds like an imperative. I recall reading some comments after 9/11, when everyone started singing "God Bless America" at public events, to the effect that it sounded like someone was giving God an order. ←Baseball Bugs ^{What's up, Doc?} carrots→ 19:18, 30 December 2009 (UTC)[reply]

And your examples work with "may". "[May] God save our noble Queen...", "[May] heaven help us", "[May] the king live long [and prosper!]" All of those uses are an implied hope or prayer. ←Baseball Bugs ^{What's up, Doc?} carrots→ 19:22, 30 December 2009 (UTC)[reply]

Language Log had a rather fascinating post on misinterpretation of present subjunctives. They point out that in Ray Charles's rendition of America the Beautiful, he translates "God shed his grace on thee" into AAVE as "God done shed his grace"..., which indicates that he read it as an indicative, in the past tense: "at some time in the past few hundred years, God shed his grace on thee". Marnanel (talk) 19:20, 30 December 2009 (UTC)[reply]

It's also Ray's artistic license. He also said, "And crown thy good... He told me He would... from sea to... shining sea." And the backing choral group sang it the normal way. ←Baseball Bugs ^{What's up, Doc?} carrots→ 19:22, 30 December 2009 (UTC)[reply]

Inserting may before these expressions works because the modern English way of expressing the optative mood is "may + [infinitive]" or "let + [infinitive]". It is something of a coincidence that the third person singular present subjunctive and the infinitive are identical in English. Marco polo (talk) 19:43, 30 December 2009 (UTC)[reply]

I remember discussing this construction in a linguistics class. The professor pointed out that this use of the bare subjunctive is really found only in certain fixed phrases, not in newly created sentences, so that while in church we may say "The Lord be with you", in Star Wars they say "May the Force be with you" not "The Force be with you". +Angr 20:05, 30 December 2009 (UTC)[reply]

Then, the figure of speech is an imperative in idiom (though it is not a metaphor), because of the lack principle of compositionality in grammatical agreements. —Mihkaw napéw (talk) 20:32, 30 December 2009 (UTC)[reply]

Mihkaw napéw, there is neither a figure of speech nor a metaphor involved. What are you trying to say? Marco polo (talk) 21:29, 30 December 2009 (UTC)[reply]

Likewise, I don't understand what Mihkaw is trying to say. ←Baseball Bugs ^{What's up, Doc?} carrots→ 23:42, 30 December 2009 (UTC)[reply]

Thanks all for the informative responses. I had not considered the subjunctive, something that I apparently need to brush up on, but the explanations all make sense now. 124.214.131.55 (talk) 00:02, 31 December 2009 (UTC)[reply]

In my Chinese class, we were given a set of sentences with the instructions "Change this sentence so it makes logical sense". I've gotten most of them, but #9 has me stumped. It is "我愛吃蜜蜂". But I cant see anything grammatically wrong with it, and it is too short for me to rewrite any more simply or clearly. Is this a trick question? —Sarah —Preceding unsigned comment added by 76.230.227.223 (talk) 19:26, 30 December 2009 (UTC)[reply]

Yes; indeed. I enjoy eating honeybees as well. Intelligentsium 19:28, 30 December 2009 (UTC)[reply]

Like Intelligentsium suggests... the error is not in the grammar, the error is in the vocabulary. rʨanaɢ ^talk/_contribs 22:07, 30 December 2009 (UTC)[reply]

蜂蜜 can mean honey, but 蜜蜂 means honey-bee. It's not a logical mistake, truly, because it is possible that there is someone out there who likes to eat bees. However, it is many times more sensible that the hypothetical speaker wants to say that they like to eat honey, so the mistake is that they switched the characters around by mistake. Steewi (talk) 02:40, 31 December 2009 (UTC)[reply]

In Chicago there used to be a place that specialized in delicacies, one of which was Chocolate Covered Baby Bees. (Dead ones, presumably.) ←Baseball Bugs ^{What's up, Doc?} carrots→ 10:20, 31 December 2009 (UTC)[reply]

Entomophagy is the practice of eating insects as food. -- Wavelength (talk) 18:24, 31 December 2009 (UTC)[reply]

I recently had a thought - why do the words Potato and Tomato have such similar names? Searching around I found some mentions of Spanish which I assume is why they are similar to a degree. But what does the -ato suffix mean? I looked around but all of the definitions and meanings of the suffix didn't seem to relate much to potatoes or tomatoes.

And finally, which word came first, Tomato or Potato? and whichever came first, did it influence the naming or the other? thanks! 86.138.142.155 (talk) 01:28, 31 December 2009 (UTC)[reply]

The Shorter Oxford English Dictionary lists unrelated origins:

Tomato: E17. ORIGIN French, Spanish, or Portuguese tomate from Nahuatl tomatl.
Potato: M16. ORIGIN Spanish patata var. of batata.

Potato came first (mid 16th century), tomato later (early 16th). Mitch Ames (talk) 01:37, 31 December 2009 (UTC)[reply]

(ec)According to my old Webster's, "potato(e)" is from Spanish "patata", which was originally the name of the sweet potato, further derived from the Taino "batata". Meanwhile, "tomato" is from Spanish "tomate", which is from the Nahuatl "tomatl". Those are both ancient crops, so it would be hard to say which actually came first. Interestingly, potatoes and tomatoes are both in the nightshade family. ←Baseball Bugs ^{What's up, Doc?} carrots→ 01:38, 31 December 2009 (UTC)[reply]

And despite the old song, potato is only pronounced with a long "a", whereas tomato can be either a long "a" (preferred) or an "ah". Curiously, both Spanish words would have an "ah". Another Spanish word for potato is "la papa". Not to be confused with "el Papa" (the Pope) and "papá" (Dad). It's a fine line. ←Baseball Bugs ^{What's up, Doc?} carrots→ 01:47, 31 December 2009 (UTC)[reply]

Patate is also used in French for potato, although the more common term is pomme de terre (lit. "apple of the earth"). Whenever I heard people use patate it was always with a bit of a tongue-in-cheek chuckle, so it may be a bit slangy. Not sure if it comes from another Romance language. rʨanaɢ ^talk/_contribs 01:57, 31 December 2009 (UTC)[reply]

I must say, that immediately upon reading you question, I questioned the accuracy of your assertion that they have similar names at all. Do firecracker and baker have similar names because they end in -ker? DRosenbach ^{(Talk | Contribs)} 06:00, 31 December 2009 (UTC)[reply]

And forgot to mention, in response to Rjanag, that potato in Hebrew is tapood, a contraction of tapooach adamah (apple of the ground). DRosenbach ^{(Talk | Contribs)} 06:03, 31 December 2009 (UTC)[reply]

Which part is which? Is the "adamah" the "of the ground" part? And does it have any connection with Adam? ←Baseball Bugs ^{What's up, Doc?} carrots→ 10:12, 31 December 2009 (UTC)[reply]

I just looked it up, and the answer to my question is, "That's a big 10-4!" ←Baseball Bugs ^{What's up, Doc?} carrots→ 10:14, 31 December 2009 (UTC)[reply]

One assumes that's a calque from the French. --Sean 15:23, 31 December 2009 (UTC)[reply]

@ Baseball Bugs: What do you mean by "preferred" in relation to saying tomato with a long "a"? That's not the way I say it, and I may as well tell you now, I won't be changing. -- Jack of Oz ... speak! ... 06:02, 31 December 2009 (UTC)[reply]

"Preferred" as per Webster, which would be American English. Americans typically say "tah-MAY-toe" unless they're trying to be funny, effecting an upper-class pronunciation "tah-MAH-toe". Or "tah-MAY-ter" if they're trying to sound like hicks (as in the tow truck "Mater"[11] in Cars). ←Baseball Bugs ^{What's up, Doc?} carrots→ 09:51, 31 December 2009 (UTC)[reply]

That song has perpetuated the idea that there are only two widespread pronunciations of tomato: "to-MAY-to" in the U.S. and "to-MAH-to" in the U.K. But isn't it the case that Canadians say neither of those, but rather to-MAT-o (IPA /təˈmætoʊ/)? +Angr 10:04, 31 December 2009 (UTC)[reply]

I don't do IPA, but I'm guessing you mean "MAT" to rhyme with the "mat" in "doormat"? ←Baseball Bugs ^{What's up, Doc?} carrots→ 10:10, 31 December 2009 (UTC)[reply]

Yes, that's exactly what I meant. +Angr 13:51, 31 December 2009 (UTC)[reply]

Where are? In Ontario, we say toe-MAY-toe (or tah-MAY-toe). I only ever hear the short a when someone is affecting an accent or funny voice. Matt Deres (talk) 15:31, 31 December 2009 (UTC)[reply]

Maybe it's a generational thing? I seem to remember a woman from Canada (British Columbia I think, though I could be mistaken) complaining that her children used the "American" to-MAY-to pronunciation instead of her own to-MAT-o pronunciation, which she blamed on TV. +Angr 23:51, 31 December 2009 (UTC)[reply]

It's worth pointing out that in "hillbilly" English, these items are called taters and maters, so it's not unreasonable to wonder if they're related terms. ←Baseball Bugs ^{What's up, Doc?} carrots→ 10:18, 31 December 2009 (UTC)[reply]

It's also worth pointing out that lots of folks besides hillbillies employ that peculiar dropping of the first syllable in some words (called Apheresis (linguistics)), one of which is "gator" for alligator - pronounced to rhyme with mater and tater, but with no apparent connection to those fruits. ←Baseball Bugs ^{What's up, Doc?} carrots→ 10:29, 31 December 2009 (UTC)[reply]

We seem to have most of the makings of a limerick here. 87.81.230.195 (talk) 12:55, 31 December 2009 (UTC) [reply]

The challenge would be working the word apheresis into it. ←Baseball Bugs ^{What's up, Doc?} carrots→ 12:58, 31 December 2009 (UTC)[reply]

A linguistically-challenged young 'gator

Met a nice girl, decided to mate'r

But his rampant aph'resis

Was combined with di'resis

So she told him "Go suck on a tater!"

Best I could do on short notice. Matt Deres (talk) 15:41, 31 December 2009 (UTC)[reply]

Excellent. You roped that one in. Hence the term "Poet Lariat". ←Baseball Bugs ^{What's up, Doc?} carrots→ 23:58, 31 December 2009 (UTC)[reply]

Injecting some confusion, I'll note that they're both in the nightshade family. --Sean 15:23, 31 December 2009 (UTC)[reply]

Indeed. Best prepared stir-fried with a mixture of fugu fish, acorns, and mushrooms of unknown origin, then gently spread on a salad of rhubarb leaves. ←Baseball Bugs ^{What's up, Doc?} carrots→ 00:04, 1 January 2010 (UTC)[reply]

In case the original questioner is confused, the simple answer to his or her question is that it is a coincidence that tomato and potato both end in -ato in English. The two words are unrelated, and there is no -ato suffix. While both words came to English through Spanish, they do not have the same -ato ending in Spanish, and each originally comes from a different, unrelated Amerindian (Native American) language. Marco polo (talk) 15:36, 31 December 2009 (UTC)[reply]

The OED records only a single example of 'tomato' before 1750 (1604, in the spelling 'tomate'), but several examples from 1753 on. This very much suggests that the word effectively entered English only in the eighteenth century. This might account for why in British usage it retains the exotic pronunciation [-a-], whereas 'potato' entered English in the 16th century before the great vowel shift was complete, so its vowel underwent the shift to [-ɛɪ-] with native words. This doesn't explain why American usage has assimilated 'tomato' to a native English pattern, though. --ColinFine (talk) 17:32, 31 December 2009 (UTC)[reply]

Can anybody give a translation (easy) or source (hard?) for the German text at Talk:Huie's Sermon? Respond here or there- thanks. (I don't know if it's a quotation of some well-known source, or was made up for the film.) Staecker (talk) 02:13, 31 December 2009 (UTC)[reply]

That would be Wenn der Mensch etwas mit der Sonne zu schaffen hätte, wäre sie heute nicht aufgegangen, ja? I'll see if I can do a word-for-word and see if anyone who actually knows German gets to it first. :) ←Baseball Bugs ^{What's up, Doc?} carrots→ 02:22, 31 December 2009 (UTC)[reply]

No can do. :( ←Baseball Bugs ^{What's up, Doc?} carrots→ 02:33, 31 December 2009 (UTC)[reply]

"If mankind were to make something out of the sun, they wouldn't be able to get up in the morning (lit. today)." Tevildo (talk) 02:37, 31 December 2009 (UTC)[reply]

Aha, so "aufgegangen" means to "get up". What are they getting at with this expression? Sorry, I failed English lit. because I wasn't good with metaphors. :( ←Baseball Bugs ^{What's up, Doc?} carrots→ 02:40, 31 December 2009 (UTC)[reply]

"Don't it always seem to go, that you don't know what you've got 'til it's gone..." :) If we were to manufacture something using the sun (doubtless, something for the general good of humanity), we would lose the pleasure of getting up in the morning (and just have to live under permanent fluorescent light, if we survived at all). Tevildo (talk) 02:48, 31 December 2009 (UTC)[reply]

"Manufacture something using the sun..." Like cutting it up and selling little bottles of it? ←Baseball Bugs ^{What's up, Doc?} carrots→ 02:54, 31 December 2009 (UTC)[reply]

(e/c*3) Can "mit jm./etw. zu schaffen haben" not also be used as an idiom to mean "to have a problem with so./sth."? I admit it doesn't fit as well with the context. (Bugs: Perhaps it's referring to using the Sun in such a manner that it is no longer available to heat the Earth. Xenon54 / talk / 03:03, 31 December 2009 (UTC)[reply]

Not one that I've heard, although I wouldn't describe myself as "fluent" by any means. "mit etw. nichts zu schaffen haben" is (literally) "have nothing to do with" (as in "I don't want anything to do with that"), but - if a good German speaker says otherwise, I'm in no position to argue. Tevildo (talk) 03:16, 31 December 2009 (UTC)[reply]

That was my assumption, from Tevildo's explanation. It's often human nature to take something good and screw it up. Like if someone decided to put a venetian blind on the sun. Or closer to reality, when the dim bulbs of Minneapolis took the minor natural wonder St. Anthony Falls and tunneled under it, and caused it to collapse. ←Baseball Bugs ^{What's up, Doc?} carrots→ 03:06, 31 December 2009 (UTC)[reply]

Wäre is singular, not plural, so sie refers to the sun, and etwas mit X zu schaffen haben is an idiom meaning "have something to do with", so: "If mankind had anything to do with the sun, it wouldn't have risen today". (And "to get up (in the morning)" isn't aufgehen but aufstehen.) +Angr 09:59, 31 December 2009 (UTC)[reply]

Thanks to all- I guess nobody recognizes the quote's origin? (If indeed it comes from anywhere other than the film.) Staecker (talk) 01:24, 1 January 2010 (UTC)[reply]

I was watching the movie earlier today, and there's a scene where Harry Dawes (Humphrey Bogart) goes over to Maria Vargas' (Ava Gardner) house in an attempt to talk her into doing a screen test (this all takes place in Spain). Meanwhile, Maria and her brother argue with their mother in Spanish, and I'm interested in having that dialogue translated. 24.189.90.68 (talk) 03:53, 31 December 2009 (UTC)[reply]

Is there a transcript of it anywhere? If you can find the Spanish, I'm sure someone here can give it a shot. ←Baseball Bugs ^{What's up, Doc?} carrots→ 04:34, 31 December 2009 (UTC)[reply]

Kinda hard to find a transcript of a copyrighted film, don't you think? 24.189.90.68 (talk) 06:04, 31 December 2009 (UTC)[reply]

Actually, there are a lot of "scripts" of copyrighted movies floating around the Internet (but mostly for films that are somewhat prominent in the pop-culture of the last 15 years or so). AnonMoos (talk) 09:31, 31 December 2009 (UTC)[reply]

That's what I had in mind. Alternatively, maybe closed-captioning with Spanish selected as the language? ←Baseball Bugs ^{What's up, Doc?} carrots→ 09:48, 31 December 2009 (UTC)[reply]

Here are Spanish subtitles for the film (it's just a zip file containing the transcript as text files). The scene in question begins at 00:16:04,160 if any Spanish speakers would like to give it a shot. --Sean 15:38, 31 December 2009 (UTC)[reply]

Since the entire transcript is Spanish, and since I haven't seen the film, you need to also tell us what the endpoint is. I'm assuming this is the starting point?

Sabe lo que es un test de imagen? [Do you know what a screen test is?]

Si [Yes]

←Baseball Bugs ^{What's up, Doc?} carrots→ 18:47, 31 December 2009 (UTC)[reply]

Notice in a dictionary the word "cinderella" can mean: a person or thing of merit, undeservedly neglected or forced into a wretched or obscure existence. Can you give me a couple of sentence examples? Would the word then be capalized? When was the word first used in English? --Doug Coldwell ^talk 13:57, 31 December 2009 (UTC)[reply]

It's a metaphor based on the fairy tale (now linked in the heading) and has been around for awhile. Bill Murray used it in Caddyshack when talking to himself while playing golf, but I think it was applied to the 1969 New York Mets, as well as a number of other teams, although that may be retrofitting to some extent. And although it's a bit inaccurate to put it this way, a Cinderella team is always subject to the question, "Will it turn back into a pumpkin at midnight?" as with Cinderella's carriage (not Cinderella herself). ←Baseball Bugs ^{What's up, Doc?} carrots→ 14:00, 31 December 2009 (UTC)[reply]

My copy of Dickson's Baseball Dictionary, one of the earlier editions, has a citation from a newspaper in 1986, in reference to a high school game; but I'm fairly certain it predates that. ←Baseball Bugs ^{What's up, Doc?} carrots→ 14:05, 31 December 2009 (UTC)[reply]

The term might be more recent than I'm remembering. The 1970 Baseball Guide refers to teams like the 1914 Braves, the 1951 Giants and the 1969 Mets as "Miracle" teams. "Cinderella" is nowhere in the team's season writeup. ←Baseball Bugs ^{What's up, Doc?} carrots→ 14:09, 31 December 2009 (UTC)[reply]

You for some reason forgot to mention another unexpectedly successful team. But even the obvious fanboys who wrote that article didn't say "Cinderella". I'd have trouble imagining Yaz in glass slippers. PhGustaf (talk) 16:16, 31 December 2009 (UTC)[reply]

(Blush) Yes. They were known as "The Impossible Dream" team. Unfortunately, they woke up after a Cardinal nightmare. >:( ←Baseball Bugs ^{What's up, Doc?} carrots→ 19:19, 31 December 2009 (UTC)[reply]

Here's a clip of Murray in the 1980 film Caddyshack: [12] ←Baseball Bugs ^{What's up, Doc?} carrots→ 14:17, 31 December 2009 (UTC)[reply]

Another example of usage is Cinderella stamp, a term that has been around since at least the 1950s, (judging by the article on Cinderella Stamp Club). ---Sluzzelin talk 14:55, 31 December 2009 (UTC)[reply]

In German, the term "ein Aschenbrödeldasein führen/fristen" ("to lead a Cinderella existence") is quite common. Not being a native speaker, I can't judge how common the term "Cinderella existence" is in English, but it gets a number of hits on google books. ---Sluzzelin talk 15:58, 31 December 2009 (UTC)[reply]

[13], check the bottom of the page. Richard Avery (talk) 16:55, 31 December 2009 (UTC)[reply]

The OED's first citing is possibly literal, but its second, from 1877, is "Others..declare that it [sc. Shoulder of Mutton] is the Cinderella of meat - a beauty misunderstood and fit for princes." --ColinFine (talk) 17:40, 31 December 2009 (UTC)[reply]

Wow, this is great stuff! Thanks all for these examples.--Doug Coldwell ^talk 21:53, 31 December 2009 (UTC)[reply]

What would "nothing comes between us" be in Latin? My best guess, and a poor one, would be "nil *something* inter nos". Thanks in advance. Peter Greenwell (talk) 01:14, 1 January 2010 (UTC)[reply]

Oddly enough, this might relate a little bit to the next section. "Come" and "between" are Anglo-Saxon words. I can't do Latin conjugations, all I can give you is the Latin infinitive. "Come" is venire and "between" is inter. This might start to look familiar. The Latin-via-French for "come between" is "intervene". So it would, or at least could, be something along the lines of nil venire inter nos. That's fractured Latin, but it's a start. ←Baseball Bugs ^{What's up, Doc?} carrots→ 02:58, 1 January 2010 (UTC)[reply]

When translating, you need to be careful not to do a literal translation of a figurative expression. Figurative meanings tend not to translate. Inter nos nil venit literally means something like "Nothing comes among us" or "Nothing comes into our midst". Instead of this literal translation, I would try for a translation of the meaning behind the English expression, which is really something like "Nothing breaks us apart". So, based on my imperfect knowledge of Latin, I would try something like Nil nos dividit. Marco polo (talk) 04:14, 1 January 2010 (UTC)[reply]

Latin has two specific compound verbs, intercedo (literally "to go between") and intervenio (literally "to come between"), but neither can really mean "to separate" or "to be a cause of dispute" (though intercedo can mean "to interfere" and intervenio can mean "to interrupt"). My suggested translation would be NIL NOS DISSOCIABIT. AnonMoos (talk) 07:55, 1 January 2010 (UTC)[reply]

Nihil nōs sēparat. [14] -- Wavelength (talk) 08:52, 1 January 2010 (UTC)[reply]

Thanks everyone for the help. Peter Greenwell (talk) 14:26, 1 January 2010 (UTC)[reply]

At the New Years Eve party I was at last night, they were playing a video of "Let me entertain you". Naturally, I started wondering about the words 'entertain' and 'entertainment'. It occurred to me that, since the noun from 'detain' is 'detention', and since 'detain' and 'entertain' are etymologically related, then the noun from 'entertain' could reasonably be 'entertention'. But no. There's only 1 google hit for entertention, and it's not used in a serious way. Why don't we have 'entertention' rather than 'entertainment'? -- Jack of Oz ... speak! ... 02:33, 1 January 2010 (UTC)[reply]

The most amazing questions can arise when you've had a few Fosters. Both "entertain" and "detain" come from the Latin tenere, "to hold". The Latin-based suffixes "-ment" and "-tion" both mean "action, state, concrete instance, result" and the like. The nearest I can come to figuring out the difference is that "-ment" is used to describe a process more than a single action. So why isn't it "detaintion"? Probably just the way it evolved. Detention, retention, intervention [see previous section]; vs. entertainment, containment, and whatever else. The versions with the second "e" seem to be closer to the Latin. The ones with the "ai" seem to more filtered through French. ←Baseball Bugs ^{What's up, Doc?} carrots→ 02:49, 1 January 2010 (UTC)[reply]

There is the word "contention", but it's not thought of as related to "contain", but to "contend". OTOH, "retention" is from "retain", not from "retend", whatever that might be. (Oh, and I was drinking Cascade, if that makes any difference.) -- Jack of Oz ... speak! ... 03:01, 1 January 2010 (UTC)[reply]

Ya learn something new every day, I tell ya. In the USA, "Cascade" is one of the leading brands of dishwasher detergent.

The root of "contend" is tendere, "to stretch", hence terms like "tension". Oddly enough, "tender" comes from tenere, not from tendere. Then there's "tentacle", which comes from tentare, "to handle/feel". I have to think that there's some common etymology among all those different Latin verbs that start with ten-, but that would take a more cunning linguist to investigate. I should point out that my source for most of this stuff is my old Webster's. ←Baseball Bugs ^{What's up, Doc?} carrots→ 03:13, 1 January 2010 (UTC)[reply]

Perhaps it's the Laphroaig typing, but I can't resist noting that there's an article about tentacles that one would not feel comfortable displaying to one's maiden aunt from Dubuque. PhGustaf (talk) 03:26, 1 January 2010 (UTC)[reply]

Oh, you don't know my maiden aunt. She's heavily into tentacles.

That one illustration might have been a rejected idea for a poster, for a certain James Bond film. ←Baseball Bugs ^{What's up, Doc?} carrots→ 03:40, 1 January 2010 (UTC)[reply]

All of the -tain verbs come from prefixed forms of the Latin verb teneo/tenere by way of the (Norman) French tenir. In the cases of detention and retention, a version of a Latin noun (respectively detentio and retentio) came to English through French. By contrast, containment and entertainment were formed directly from -tain verbs in medieval or early modern times by attaching the -ment suffix (which likewise came from Latin to English via French). There is or was, for example, no Latin noun *intertenementum. In fact, the verb entertain itself lacks a Latin cognate. (There is or was no *interteneo/intertenere, so there could be no *intertentio.) Entertain was coined in Middle French by combining the prefix entre- (from Latin inter) with the verb tenir. Marco polo (talk) 04:44, 1 January 2010 (UTC)[reply]

Thanks, Marco Polo and everyone else for those answers. -- Jack of Oz ... speak! ... 12:08, 1 January 2010 (UTC)[reply]

What is the pronunciation of Chriqui in Emmanuelle Chriqui, Dushku in Eliza Dushku and Schmidt in Rob Schmidt? Thanks. —Preceding unsigned comment added by Qoklp (talk • contribs) 03:11, 1 January 2010 (UTC)[reply]

I can't say about the first two. The third, if it's pronounced the conventional way in English, is German for "Smith" and is pronounced "shmit", if that helps. The "d" is virtually silent. ←Baseball Bugs ^{What's up, Doc?} carrots→ 03:19, 1 January 2010 (UTC)[reply]

It seems from this clip that Emmanuelle Chriqui pronounces her name /ʃəˈriːki/ (though I would've guessed by her Quebecois origin that it was /ˈʃriːki/). In this clip Dushku is pronounced /ˈdʊʃkuː/. — Ƶ§œš¹ _{[aɪm ˈfɻɛ̃ⁿdˡi]} 04:24, 1 January 2010 (UTC)[reply]

Let's say I'm attempting to transcribe some speech in the IPA, and I hear a sound which(due to bad recording, background noise, etc) I can't identify specifically, but I know its general class(say, stop consonant). Are there IPA symbols which denote "unidentified stop consonant/fricative/sonorant/etc"? 69.111.79.27 (talk) 07:37, 1 January 2010 (UTC)[reply]