Talk:Comparison of portable media players

	To-do list for Comparison of portable media players:
	Template:Comparison of portable media players/to do

There's a fine line between Audible's codec (ACELP-DRM), and the m4b format. They're different. Besides... the US versions of Creative players:ZVM, Stone, and others support Audible. If you are free, please check whether it is the m4b format, or the codec. (Another proprietary format, .aa is from Audible and should be the ones that the ZEN players are compatible with.) --Jw21/PenaltyKillah^{discuss•edits}_GO'NUCKSGO!! 20:29, 4 May 2007 (UTC)[reply]

Why do you keep changing the formats table to say that ipods can play this mystery format of audible's when it says on the audible.com page that for ipods they just use fairplay-AAC? Undeaf 23:19, 8 May 2007 (UTC)[reply]

Really? Then it should be AAC-DRM... Alright. --Jw21 20:16, 24 May 2007 (UTC)[reply]

The iriver clix2 has just been released in the US. It would be nice if someone replace the info of the original iriver clix. Also, when the Zvue 260 arrives, remove the Zvue 250 sections and unhide the Zvue 260 ones. --Jw21/PenaltyKillah^talk_GO'NUCKSGO!! 01:40, 19 April 2007 (UTC)[reply]

that doesn't mean it'll be out in all markets, using ounces and inches is one thing, but removing a product the instant a newer one is out in the US is another Undeaf 02:23, 19 April 2007 (UTC)[reply]

Then what do you suggest, a delay of 2 to 3 months? --Jw21/PenaltyKillah^talk_GO'NUCKSGO!! 20:16, 19 April 2007 (UTC)[reply]

Not sure. Maybe at least until it's replaced in England, Australia and New Zealand. Or maybe just leave everything on, and fork off another article, "comparison of current generation PMPs" (having all redirects and such go to that article). Or just move ones that would be deleted to a new article about non current generation PMPs. Undeaf 20:52, 21 April 2007 (UTC)[reply]

Hmm... I'm not comfortable with that idea. Who'd want to tab every player, discontinued and current? Anyway, I'll go add the specs for the clix2, but hide it. When you want to unhide it is your choice. --Jw21/PenaltyKillah^talk_GO'NUCKSGO!! 15:50, 22 April 2007 (UTC)[reply]

Not every single one, just a few to show how they've progressed. Like, ipods, zen touch, nomad jukebox, rio karma. Undeaf 23:42, 22 April 2007 (UTC)[reply]

But they're the old generations of current players. Why not create a sandbox, let's say User:Undeaf/Sandbox, and create your own table for these discontinued players? --Jw21/PenaltyKillah^{discuss•edits}_GO'NUCKSGO!! 15:57, 3 May 2007 (UTC)[reply]

For FM radio, recording, etc. Consumers would want to know if their player have them or not. Also: PC/Mac/Linux compatibility. --Jw21 (PenaltyKillah) 21:30, 8 March 2007 (UTC)[reply]

Mac/linux compatibility would be tricky because it's so vague, creative labs players for example supposedly can be gotten to work but lots of people fail to even after extensive attempts(especially with Zen V's). But still it should be listed. Also, whether it can function as an MSC device should definitly be listed, since that's a straightforward thing and only partially overlaps with the linux/osx compatibility issue. Also, rockbox support is another thing along these lines that should be listed, perhaps under "firmware version" eg. for ipod the field could be "1.2.1, rockbox available" or "1.2.1 or rockbox" Undeaf 14:52, 12 April 2007 (UTC)[reply]

How about adding a new chart for moving some existing columns to and for adding some new ones; "syncing"? It could contain the columns: "connectivity", "integrated software", "msc compatible", "linux compatible", "OSX compatible", Undeaf 02:24, 13 April 2007 (UTC) [reply]

I think there is no need to add a new chart... you can use a scrollable box to extend the table... just add more columns... if u guys want to I can add... but the current version looks cluttered under 800x600... Getonyourfeet 02:50, 13 April 2007 (UTC)[reply]

yah... it might be necessary to add another table just to maintain interoperablity for text browser like elinksGetonyourfeet 02:50, 13 April 2007 (UTC)[reply]

I was working on it, if you do see the hidden trial table... (below Video and Online Stores) --Jw21 aka PenaltyKillah^talk 18:52, 14 April 2007 (UTC)Undeaf 00:42, 3 May 2007 (UTC)[reply]

Multi-purpose DAPs (you mean PMPs)? Then there'll be an article called Comparison of cellphones or something. I'm limiting "multi-purpose" players to those with a screen large enough for media playback, advertised primarily as a player, and has specifications/designs that relates to ordinary PMPs. For cellphones, most of them are similar, with the same playback formats, memory from cards, miniscule screens, etc. But the PlayStation Portable is on the list, thanks to the reasons listed above. --Jw21 aka PenaltyKillah^talk 06:58, 17 April 2007 (UTC)[reply]

No, I mean things other than normal PMPs, ie. other devices with secondary PMP functionality, like PSP, GP2X and XGP, as well as cameras with DAP/PMP functionality(creative labs makes some of those), and then there's iphone, meizu's iphone competitor, and samsungs phone with the phone interface on one side and the DAP interface on the other. And also, PMPs with significant secondary functionality, like MD players, I hear those are very good at recording unlike most DAPs. Undeaf 10:54, 17 April 2007 (UTC)[reply]

Yeah, it'llbe included in the Misc. section, under something like 'Extra abilities/functions' and subcolumns like FM tuner and GPS etc. Good one. --Jw21/PenaltyKillah^talk_GO'NUCKSGO!! 12:26, 17 April 2007 (UTC)[reply]

No, I didn't say anything about listing line in recording as a feature for all players that have it, I said that devices with really good recording capabilities would be multi purpose devices with DAP(or PMP) functionality

Of course, line in recording could be listed, along with recording through a built in microphone, recording through an external microphone, radio recording(and radio tuners), and TV recording Undeaf 20:03, 18 April 2007 (UTC)[reply]

One problem. Archos' players are asumed to be video recorders. But you'll have to buy an optional accessory. I don't suggest adding TV recording to that new table unless the player has that built-in ability. Or maybe if the same company creates that accesory (and add a ref to it).

To technical: output power (mA @ 16 ohms)

To technical or syncing: charging time

To syncing: third party software

To technical: battery size (mAh)

To technical: removable battery

To video formats or technical: video frame rate limit

To video formats: bitrate limit

To video formats: resolution limit

To general: file navigation, by tags or by folders

To technical or general: expandability Undeaf 22:14, 21 April 2007 (UTC)[reply]

How about EQ, gapless, 3d audio?  — 6etonyourfeet^\t\c 22:24, 21 April 2007 (UTC)[reply]

EQ and gapless sound good, not sure what exactly 3d audio's supposed to be. Undeaf 23:12, 21 April 2007 (UTC)[reply]

Anyway, I suggest the new table to display what extra abilities (besides audio, photo, and video) can these players do. Like some can play games, some can record radio, some can display PDFs, some has Web access with WiFi, etc. etc. —The preceding unsigned comment was added by Jw21 (talk • contribs) 15:52, 22 April 2007 (UTC).[reply]

Name	Line in	built in microphone	external microphone	tuner	radio recording	recording in mp3	max recording bitrate	text viewer	PDF viewer	Games
Archos 404 camcorder
Cowon D2	Yes	Yes		FM	Yes	Yes
Gigabeat S
iAUDIO X5	Yes	Yes		FM	Yes	Yes
iPod 5.5G	No	No	No	No	No	No
iriver clix	Yes	Yes		FM	Yes	Yes
Meizu M6 miniPlayer	Yes	Yes		FM	Yes	Yes
PlayStation Portable	No	No	No	No	No	No
Sansa e200R series	Yes	Yes		FM	Yes
Walkman NW-A800 series
ZEN Vision:M		Yes		FM	Yes	Yes
ZEN Vision W		Yes		FM	Yes	Yes
Zune
ZVUE 250

Undeaf 20:37, 18 April 2007 (UTC)[reply]

It could include: -Video battery life

-Audio battery life

-Charging time - USB

-Charging time - AC

-Battery connection, ie. soldered in / screwed in / officially replacable / toollessly replaceable

-Battery type (if there are any that are Lithium ion instead of lithium polymer, or if any are different kinds of lithium polymer)

-Battery size (mAH)

-Rockbox audio battery life (this one I'm not too sure about, barely any of these players are rockbox compatible)

Undeaf 00:39, 3 May 2007 (UTC)[reply]

Good one, maybe one for photo viewing... I'm not so sure about the Rockbox column, I know lots of Wikipedians are GNU-obsessed, but just because a player has different firmware, its battery life would be... different? You know what, out of our chart, only the iAUDIO X5 and the iPod 5.5G (30GB) supports Rockbox. --Jw21/PenaltyKillah^{discuss•edits}_GO'NUCKSGO!! 16:00, 3 May 2007 (UTC)[reply]

How about adding a section for whether the device sorts files by id3 tags or by folders? Undeaf 14:59, 12 April 2007 (UTC)[reply]

Good idea. But don't all players use id3? And what about videos? --Jw21/PenaltyKillah^talk_GO'NUCKSGO!! 01:26, 19 April 2007 (UTC)[reply]

I'm not sure how many do, but it's not all of them. But even if they do sort by tags, there could still be variation about whether they sort by genre in adition to artist and album, and whether they allow any options to sorting. Undeaf 20:58, 21 April 2007 (UTC)[reply]

Well if they don't support id3, then... 1) They're not the latest player, and 2) They're not made by a major corporation, like those pirated ones. --Jw21/PenaltyKillah^talk_GO'NUCKSGO!! 23:13, 30 April 2007 (UTC)[reply]

iAudios browse by folders. Undeaf 23:44, 22 April 2007 (UTC)[reply]

Really? The X5/Cowon D2? --Jw21/PenaltyKillah^talk_GO'NUCKSGO!! 05:00, 23 April 2007 (UTC)[reply]

The X5 does, so does the trekstor vibez. The D2 appears to, the tech spec page mentions a folder limit. Undeaf 22:01, 30 April 2007 (UTC)[reply]

Alright, but add it under the hidden section (which I am going to restart.... its a bit messy. --Jw21/PenaltyKillah^talk_GO'NUCKSGO!! 23:13, 30 April 2007 (UTC)[reply]

Well, the Playsforsure/Janus can be combined very well, so does OpenMG/Sony Connect, WMDRM/Zune Marketplace, and FairPlay/iTunes Store. Then there's a prob with the Helix DRM and the Audible.com online store. --Jw21 aka PenaltyKillah^talk 17:10, 15 April 2007 (UTC)[reply]

Ok, I've fixed it! I'm probably going to further shrink that section in my upcoming Misc. section! --Jw21 aka PenaltyKillah^talk 17:10, 15 April 2007 (UTC)[reply]

It would appear that a comparison of more than five players is necessary. It might be helpful to include players which support the .ogg format. - Conor 18:56, 5 January 2007 (UTC) Perhaps from the XiphWiki[1] - Conor 19:07, 5 January 2007 (UTC)[reply]

I concur. I might even do it myself, as long as my info is correct. I would love stuffing a Creative Labs right in Apple's face.--71.248.190.214 01:19, 10 January 2007 (UTC)[reply]

A lot of Samsung players are able to play .ogg files. Z5 nad K5 would be great additions to this article. —The preceding unsigned comment was added by 82.231.75.169 (talk) 23:10, 21 January 2007 (UTC).[reply]

Hi, psp has been a great mp3 and video ect. player. i'm going to add this to the article sometime soon if anyone tells me not shadowvirus17 1-18-2007

Well the clix DOES play ogg formats. I'm planning to add the sansa and the PSP btw. --Jw21 (PenaltyKillah) 09:22, 28 January 2007 (UTC)[reply]

What about mobile phones as portable media players? Some seem to work also in this use. Especialy it would be interesting to know what limitations and technical incompabilities might be involved. Do they use separate proprietary players or commonly known media players? - Nimmu

That is why the players here are those which only plays media (audio, photos, videos, games, radio, etc.) --Jw21 (PenaltyKillah) 05:55, 3 February 2007 (UTC)[reply]

So as to eliminate any confusion, I have changed the format of battery life to '4 or 5 hours' as opposed to '4/5 Hours'. The change was made so that the article was not misread as four fifths of an hour. - Conor 18:56, 5 January 2007 (UTC)[reply]

Hmmm... niet. Companies would always state their battery life as an estimate to .5 or .0, get it? No one reads 4/5 as fourth-fifths. At least, anyone I know. --Jw21 (PenaltyKillah) 09:09, 28 January 2007 (UTC) (Btw, thanks for giving some life to this discussion forum. I was afraid no one was bothered with this article.)[reply]

Why not change it to "4-5 hours", to distinguish the meaning "4 to 5 hours" from "4 hours in one model, 5 hours in another"? Undeaf 00:42, 19 April 2007 (UTC)[reply]

Aren't you contradicting yourself? "4/5 hours" mean "4 or 5 hours", which, in turn, means "Smaller capacity model can play 4 hours, while the bigger capacity model can play 5 hours." --Jw21/PenaltyKillah^talk_GO'NUCKSGO!! 01:26, 19 April 2007 (UTC)[reply]

No. I meant to distinguish the afformentioned meaning from the other one. In other words to distinguish 4-5 hours, meaning 4 to 5 hours, from 4 / 5 hours, meaning 4 hours in one case, 5 hours in another. Using a slash to mean "or" or "to" seems generally odd to me, except when it's used to mean "respectively".Undeaf 21:13, 21 April 2007 (UTC)[reply]

Isn't that against what the general public thinks? 4-5 is not the same as 4 / 5. And yes, a slash is used to mean "respectively". --Jw21 20:16, 24 May 2007 (UTC)[reply]

Why does someone keep changing the information on iPod to being able to play WMA files with a footnote? Even if the files can be converted, the player itself cannot play the format.

That's why it's at NO but with the reference that it can be converted to AAC via iTunes. --Jw21 (PenaltyKillah) 09:21, 28 January 2007 (UTC)[reply]

Should it really be treated as a positive attribute? Someoneinmyheadbutit'snotme 04:40, 30 January 2007 (UTC)[reply]

Is this really the place to discuss? You can talk all you want about it at Talk:Digital rights management. --Jw21 (PenaltyKillah) 05:54, 3 February 2007 (UTC)[reply]

I meant this as specifically in reference to the table, as it is highlighted in green. Someoneinmyheadbutit'snotme 20:13, 10 March 2007 (UTC)[reply]

Well, it is highlighted in green as: it is the colour for "Yes", and "Yes" means that the specific player can play that particular format, in your case, AAC-DRM or WMA-DRM. --Jw21 aka PenaltyKillah^talk 18:49, 14 April 2007 (UTC)[reply]

I was wondering if the dimensions and weights of each of the players could be changed to SI units? Juliuspret 04:01, 25 February 2007 (UTC)[reply]

Of course they can though conversion factor... inches is American system and Europeans use metric ... yes it is biased to American and America is the center of the world LAWL... JK ... but it is up consensus or maybe you can a column for international viewers ... it would be a burden to the public you know... Getonyourfeet 04:46, 25 February 2007 (UTC)[reply]

Yes... unfortunately some articles in Wikipedia is not suited for Americans, as the units are metric. You can type "1.23 inches to centimeters" on Google, for example, to get the conversion, or even "86 feet to kilometres". Go give it a try.--Jw21 (PenaltyKillah) 06:12, 25 February 2007 (UTC)[reply]

It makes far more sense to have it in SI units, metric is preferred over inches in most the world and the approved international system should be observed (even if the USA don't go for it). Trixxy 09:52, 13 April 2007 (UTC)[reply]

Well, even in Canada and Britain, we use pounds and inches to measure meat and mp3 players... --Jw21 aka PenaltyKillah^talk 16:44, 15 April 2007 (UTC)[reply]

Im really hoping that all of you are joking... You can just put it in SI units and in imperial. You dont need to choose between them. What is the unit right now? it doesnt seem to have one. I could be mistaken, but I only see the numbers.PhorkPhace 03:08, 20 April 2007 (UTC)[reply]

That's why the English Wikipedia (en.wikipedia.org) should be divided to (us.wikipedia.org) and (uk.wikipedia.org). --Jw21/PenaltyKillah^talk_GO'NUCKSGO!! 03:27, 20 April 2007 (UTC)[reply]

Are you serious? That would be using a hammer against a fly, with most topics there wouldn't even be these kinds of issues. Undeaf 21:20, 21 April 2007 (UTC)[reply]

Ah, I know! Those articles with measurements would be separated into two. One with metric, one imperial. Or some wikicode should fix it. --Jw21/PenaltyKillah^talk_GO'NUCKSGO!! 15:40, 22 April 2007 (UTC)[reply]

Personally I think it should be in mm, but either way, the table needs to say what the unit of measurement is.Trixxy 23:08, 23 May 2007 (UTC)[reply]

Alright. --Jw21 20:16, 24 May 2007 (UTC)[reply]

Basically, the PSP can play audio through speakers. Why not add that in the audio-out column? -- FoolFromHell 18:52, 16 March 2007 (UTC)

Er... pay attention. --Jw21 aka PenaltyKillah^talk 16:44, 15 April 2007 (UTC)[reply]

Lets add a column for number of songs a device can hold along side the gigabyte value... Microsoft claims their product can hold 7000 songs pretty interesting...This could help out the n00bs who cannot visualize the importance.Getonyourfeet 02:33, 7 April 2007 (UTC)[reply]

Unfortunately, these "estimations" can be varied, because of competitive purposes. Creative once listed its 4GB Zen V plus with a thousand songs, yet Apple advertised the 1G iPod shuffle with 500 songs. --Jw21 aka PenaltyKillah^talk 16:46, 15 April 2007 (UTC)[reply]

The number would be way different for each format. Also, you could take a minute and a half song, and put it on your mp3 player (random number) 1000 times. If you used a 3 minute long song, it goes down to 500 songs. It would be better to just have the amount of hours each can hold for a common format, say mp3 because i would say just about all mp3 players play mp3 files (maybe they called it that for a reason...PhorkPhace 03:12, 20 April 2007 (UTC)[reply]

Wikipedia is not a commercial service. As much as I acknowledge that Wikipedia is one of the world's most visited websites, Wikipedia is, primarily, a encyclopedia or reference and information. I understand that one of the factors that the common folk use to buy MP3 players is to find out how many "songs" it can hold. Unfortunately, this article displays pure data, not a superficial denomination like "songs". Why not just follow this: 125 songs for 512MB, 250 songs for 1GB, 500 songs for 2GB, 1000 songs for 4GB, 2000 songs for 8GB, 3000 for 12GB, 5000 for 20GB, 7500 for 30GB, 10,000 songs for 40GB, 15,000 for 60GB, 20,000 songs for 80GB, 25,000 for 100GB, 30,000 for 120GB, 35,000 for 140GB, 37,500 for 150GB, 40,000 for 160GB, and finally, 50,000 songs for a player with 200GB. Basically, it's not information for a player, it is information for a specific storage capacity.--Jw21/PenaltyKillah^talk_GO'NUCKSGO!! 03:34, 20 April 2007 (UTC)[reply]

support for DRM'd WMA and AAC files is listed under music stores and under DRM, how about removing it from the audio formats section? It's getting pretty cluttered.Undeaf 18:01, 12 April 2007 (UTC)[reply]

No. They are an audio format. The bottom two sections are to specify which online service/whatever that Microsoft/Apple/Sony/some-big-company impose on. --Jw21 aka PenaltyKillah^talk 18:50, 14 April 2007 (UTC)[reply]

Calling it OGG formats implies that it also supports FLAC and speex, iriver clix does not support FLAC and I don't think any PMP supports speex. Undeaf 20:28, 12 April 2007 (UTC)[reply]

Well, it's rare that a player would support ogg formats, let alone one specific format. In your case, add a note stating that the player cannot play speex, or FLAC (where "Yes" would've been, not Reference). --Jw21 aka PenaltyKillah^talk 18:51, 14 April 2007 (UTC)[reply]

vorbis support isn't that rare, iAudios, irivers and Meizus have it, so do insignia players and Rockbox, and FLAC support isn't really either, it's ALAC and WMAL that are just atrac3 style formats being pushed by Apple or toshiba/microsoft, and ms isn't even supporting theirs anymore. Undeaf 20:43, 14 April 2007 (UTC)[reply]

Oh, and lossless formats aren't like lossy formats because you can convert back and forth between them without the same issues.Undeaf 21:54, 14 April 2007 (UTC)[reply]

I think similar formats should be in one column, for space's sake, and several players might support all of them. And it's open-source, which isn't that much used in the mainstream. --Jw21 20:16, 24 May 2007 (UTC)[reply]

Froogle turns up plenty of 1gb and 2gb meizu miniplayers Undeaf 01:58, 19 April 2007 (UTC)[reply]

Commercially advertised by the company. Just like there are still 1GB iPod nanos selling in Ebay and Amazon.com, but they are not listed. --Jw21/PenaltyKillah^talk_GO'NUCKSGO!! 20:19, 19 April 2007 (UTC)[reply]

Archos 404 does not have a dpad, those arrows are just functions of some of the 2-way buttons Undeaf 01:58, 19 April 2007 (UTC)[reply]

D-pad is the short form of Directional pad. So it can be used for any kind of pad that goes four ways. It doesn't just limit to Game Boys and consoles. That's why the iPod doesn't have a "d-pad" but the iriver clix does. --Jw21/PenaltyKillah^talk_GO'NUCKSGO!! 20:19, 19 April 2007 (UTC)[reply]

But it doesn't have any sort of pad. It has a set of three buttons, with six functions, among which directional functions are spread out in a WASD-like manner. Undeaf 22:12, 21 April 2007 (UTC)[reply]

Yes, but four of those 'half-buttons' they still go four ways, not matter it is 6 of those embedded in 3. Or maybe we should change the name "D-pad" to "Directional navigation" or something? --Jw21/PenaltyKillah^talk_GO'NUCKSGO!! 05:07, 22 April 2007 (UTC)[reply]

It says here that the GP2X does function as a mass storage class device: http://wiki.gp2x.org/wiki/User_FAQ#Is_it_possible_to_use_the_GP2X_without_Microsoft_Windows.3F Undeaf 21:57, 3 May 2007 (UTC)[reply]

Alright... it's now in N/A, as it doesn't have internal memory. SD cards are technically MSC. --Jw21 20:16, 24 May 2007 (UTC)[reply]

According to Sansa they say "Sansa MP3 player",[2] and they show a sansa e270. However, according to wikipedia you cannot draw synthesis unless it is published and statements/data with unpublished synthesis shouldn't belong. Vista supports natively MTP which should support every MTP device but possibly not the Zune because it's protocol requires authentication process according to libmtp who implement the basics of MTP protocol. I myself would flag every MTP device with vista with yes, but again, Wikipedia's policy is stupid. Because it is a Sansa e270... would this apply to Sansa e200r series? — 6etonyourfeet^\t\c 06:29, 25 April 2007 (UTC)[reply]

e270 -> Model name of the Sansa e200 series. All Sansa e200 models (e250 to e280 (from 2-8GB) have a duplicate with Rhapsody support. So it would apply. It's the same player, but a slightly enhanced firmware. --Jw21/PenaltyKillah^talk_GO'NUCKSGO!! 00:56, 28 April 2007 (UTC)[reply]

How about adding a "list of mp3 players using AA or AAA batteries"? Or maybe other such lists, such as "...with built in speakers", or "...with built in games" or other things along these lines. It might be a better way of dealing with some of the more unusual features. Undeaf 00:44, 28 April 2007 (UTC)[reply]

Kind of battery? (Lithium-ion ((Un)-removable))/"standard" battery (AA/AAA)) That would belong to Tech Specs, since it doesn't really have to do with this question: "Does this player have any EXTRA abilities, besides playing music, viewing pictures, and playing movies?" Feel free to add it, but in that section. --Jw21/PenaltyKillah^talk_GO'NUCKSGO!! 00:55, 28 April 2007 (UTC)[reply]

It doesn't belong in any table as it's not something that differs in any of these devices. In a way, being able to swap the battery many times, or to charge the battery from any source feasible is an extra feature. If a PMP was designed to connect to a solar charger, that would be a feature.Undeaf 01:11, 28 April 2007 (UTC)[reply]

Yes, but because it has to do with the battery (and battery type info is common in tech. specs). But I don't think "swapping batteries" would be an advantage... --Jw21/PenaltyKillah^talk_GO'NUCKSGO!! 02:15, 28 April 2007 (UTC)[reply]

It is. A big one. If it's taken on trips, it can mean having 160 hours of battery life instead of 20. It also means not having to throw the device away after 3 years.

It's not really a technical issue, it's not a question of what kind of battery it is, but whether it's a standardised battery. Undeaf 02:33, 28 April 2007 (UTC)[reply]

Alright, fine. But the column name should be along the lines of "Battery removable?".--Jw21/PenaltyKillah^talk_GO'NUCKSGO!! 20:21, 30 April 2007 (UTC)[reply]

I'm not looking to throw all those AAA battery players into this article, I don't think that would really be a good idea, A lot of stuff in here wouldn't apply to them, such as everything related to video.

It's a very specific feature. Like if the player was to have two headphone jacks with independant volumne control. Or if it had a braile screen. Okay, it's not that unusual, but the devices with it are rather different, generally a lot less cutting edge than what this article is focusing on.

Of course there could be a column about what kind of battery it has. Not just whether it's designed to be removable by anyone, but also if it's soldered in(and extra difficult to replace).Undeaf 21:38, 30 April 2007 (UTC)[reply]

Alright! I'll go completely restart that hidden section in the article so you can work on your "Other Capabilities" section... --Jw21/PenaltyKillah^talk_GO'NUCKSGO!! 23:11, 30 April 2007 (UTC)[reply]

Is there really a reason to keep a column for WMA lossless? It's practically unsupported. How about just moving it into "other codecs"?

And, audible - is it actually a format? Undeaf 01:13, 3 May 2007 (UTC)[reply]

We don't merge columns just because they share a similarity, or because its "practically unsupported". And, yes, Audible is a file format (m4a). (By the way, the reason why I merged the Ogg formats was because they are actually one codec in several container file formats (FLAC, Speex, Vorbis etc.) --Jw21/PenaltyKillah^{discuss•edits}_GO'NUCKSGO!! 16:03, 3 May 2007 (UTC)[reply]

Ogg formats are definitly not one codec. They are many different codecs that share the ogg container, and the ogm and mkv containers.(although I think flac has it's own container for storing whole albums) An extension does not equal a format, or even a container. Undeaf 18:49, 3 May 2007 (UTC)[reply]

Alright, then we should make the Audio formats section divided into two subs: Propertiary and Open-source. It seems that the amount of 3rd party formats are growing, so why not? --Jw21/PenaltyKillah^{discuss•edits}_GO'NUCKSGO!! 20:05, 3 May 2007 (UTC)[reply]

That would create a lot of confusion. They're formats, not programs, source code is not directly tied to it. It's not clear whether mp1, mp2 and such are open or closed formats, same thing for mp3 soon when the patents on it expire. Undeaf 20:58, 3 May 2007 (UTC)[reply]

The entry on audible.com seems to imply that audible's files for DAPs are just fairplay-AAC or DRM'ed mp3s. Undeaf 22:39, 3 May 2007 (UTC)[reply]

That's why AAC-DRM and WMA-DRM are listed in the audio formats section. And the MPEG formats can be described as shared source. But I really support spliting those formats, like Ogg, Vorbis, Speex, FLAC, etc. etc. be in one subtable. After all, Wikipedia is for the worldwide community, not just the technological community. --Jw21/PenaltyKillah^{discuss•edits}_GO'NUCKSGO!! 01:30, 4 May 2007 (UTC)[reply]

What exactly does ogg being open formats have to do with this being accesible to common people?

If there already are columns for AAC-DRM and such, then why is there an additional column for something that is the same format? On ipods audible apparently is just fairplay-AAC, and creative does not list it as an additional format that Zens can play, and audible is already listed under Online services, why list it again as a file format when it ISN'T an additional file format that these devices can play?Undeaf 03:29, 4 May 2007 (UTC)[reply]

'Online Services' show which (group) of online stores that these players are compatible with. Of course, it's much more complicated when some have their own, let's say, "personal DRM/stores", and others are on the open-source side (which somehow seems to shun away from DRM). If you want it removed, then it's quite alright. All five of the online services are somewhat exhibited in the Formats section. (though songs bought from the Zune Marketplace cannot be played on Playsforsure-certified players) --Jw21/PenaltyKillah^{discuss•edits}_GO'NUCKSGO!! 05:40, 4 May 2007 (UTC)[reply]

No, I think the online services section makes sense. I think it makes more sense to seperate DRM and non-DRM formats than to seperate more-open-design and less-open-design formats. There is one problem with it though, it could have separate columns for WMA-DRM 9 and WMA-DRM 10Undeaf 14:44, 4 May 2007 (UTC)[reply]

Now that's a better division (and don't worry too much about DRM9 or DRM10...), why not, for example: WMA-DRM (in the DRM subtable), MP3 (in the proprietary subtable), and FLAC (in the open-source subtable)? --Jw21/PenaltyKillah^{discuss•edits}_GO'NUCKSGO!! 15:50, 5 May 2007 (UTC)[reply]

It's precisely because very few of these support rockbox that I'm trying to include it as rows rather than columns. And I picked those two because they're probably the most reasonable options for a rockbox player: the sandisk version is unfinished, the nano 1G has a soldered in battery which makes the battery life hit extra problematic, and the other compatible ones are not widely available(rockboxed gigabeat F is probably the best option if you can find it, if it was more available I'd be for including it).

As for how rockbox is mentioned as the method for ipod linux compatibility, that's wrong. It's not the same thing as being compatible in a normal way like through libmtp, and they are compatible through many other ways.

I don't see why rockbox doesn't merrit inclusion on a similar level as the others, or how doing so is GNU-biased. It's a widely available option, and also pretty much guaranteed to remain available and to not loose any features, Lower battery life is the big disadvatage to it, NOT including it makes rockbox look too good. It also should have a row under syncing and transfer, but I can't seem to find the info on that. Undeaf 18:32, 3 May 2007 (UTC)[reply]

... ... ... ... But you're missing the point. The name of this article is Comparison of portable media players, not Comparison of third-party firmware for portable media players. I hope I gave you enough inspiration to... maybe start your Rockbox stuff in... a new article? You see, WP isn't a place to advertise, or make people aware of specific products/choices etc. Read this if you want to make sure. --Jw21/PenaltyKillah^{discuss•edits}_GO'NUCKSGO!! 20:04, 3 May 2007 (UTC)[reply]

But the OS is a big part of the device, without it it's a package of a commodity parts. You're rather insistant on focusing only on how these products are "out of the box", like how you're deleting all mention of expandability. Oh, and if you want to be consistant about that, you should change the PSP and zvue capacity specs to zero.

If you're trying to steer it as far away from a buyers guide as possible, then why are you so against having a simplified parrallel list on products that are of historical relevance(ie. showing how such devices have changed from generation to generation)? Undeaf 21:19, 3 May 2007 (UTC)[reply]

That's why I'm planning to create another article, Comparison of digital audio players, to add "old generation" players. Besides, if we are to compare players by generation, usually its the exterior/design that changes, not the formats they support.

And if I'm "deleting all mention of expandability", that's because that column was supposed to show how much internal capacity. And if they don't support any internal capacity, I added what they used instead. Do not worry, I am planning to create a new column for external memory. —The preceding unsigned comment was added by Jw21 (talk • contribs) 01:22, 4 May 2007 (UTC).[reply]

Oh yes, if, let's say, people interested in the passion of homebrew firmware/third-party stuff/GNU/open-source alternatives, I don't think Wikipedia would be the first place that they'll look, other than general information. Sure, lots of products support these impressive open-source creations that the technological community adores, but is it their job to make mainstream society be aware of them, by noting its very existence on every DAP article? I was about to put {{yes2}} on the OS compatibility columns on those players which solely use external memory anyway. Look at other related comparison articles, like Comparison of media players, to see how this article started, and where it was based from. --Jw21/PenaltyKillah^{discuss•edits}_GO'NUCKSGO!! 01:28, 4 May 2007 (UTC)[reply]

Of course it's the size and weight that changes most, I didn't imply anything contrary.

It's a comparison of "cutting edge" PMP devices, why should Rockbox refited devices be excluded just because the firmware is made by enthusiasts? There is no rule saying that only tech-apt or GNU-interested people are allowed using open source software, and there is nothing abnormal about patching firmware or using third party software with an electronic device.

You're trying to make it look like my position on this revolves around rockbox being open source, when it's your position that does so.Undeaf 02:57, 4 May 2007 (UTC)[reply]

Hmm... why not have the 'Rockbox' row in the Formats sections be called 'Player with Rockbox firmware'? People may think that Rockbox is a product by itself. --Jw21/PenaltyKillah^{discuss•edits}_GO'NUCKSGO!! 05:36, 4 May 2007 (UTC)[reply]

I noticed that Archos has a whole bunch of portable video players out now (at least 5 or 6); I believe the 404 (listed in this comparison table) was one of the earliest. Should each of the new ones have its own row now? they do seem to have different specs. See here for them. I may just go ahead and add some of the specs in the meantime (they can always be reverted if they're unwelcome). -Elizabennet | talk 21:19, 19 May 2007 (UTC)[reply]

We've included two of them, and like those two, the 604 and 604 wifi probably should share a line for the sake of neatness if they were included, and the 504 looks like a 604 with a 2.5" hard drive. The 704 seems to really be pushing the definition of portability, it seems to be more like a tablet PC than a PMP. Undeaf 03:43, 21 May 2007 (UTC)[reply]

A common misconception is that Archos released the '04' series of players by their numbers, literally. In fact, the 104 and 204 (rebranded Gmini players) came after the 504, and the 404 just came out last year. Anyway, if you're going to add the 504 or 604, keep them separate. There's just too many differences, even though they look the same at first glance. (Touchscreen, built-in speaker, WiFi for 604) And I think the 704 WiFi deserves a different name in 'Player type'... how about Mega PMPs (is Mega the opposite of Micro), or Tablet-PC Contempoary?

Do we want to add links to Vongo, Unbox, or some of the other services? Just wondering if those are popular/selective in usefulness. -Elizabennet | talk 21:25, 19 May 2007 (UTC)[reply]

That's a touchy subject... really. Some online services are compatitble with virtually all players, as they do not have external memory, or a need for software. In fact, I think the title needs to be changed, as it's quite misleading. --Jw21 20:16, 24 May 2007 (UTC)[reply]

The Zune can actually play DivX files that have been disguised as .wmv files. There has since been a registry hack to allow the Zune to accept and play .avi files. I'm not sure why M$ didn't just initially add support for .avi files, being as popular of format that it is. Obligatory link to source. [3]. Unchain 16:36, 1 June 2007 (UTC)[reply]