Talk:Derry/Londonderry name dispute

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User:Pharos moved this article to Derry naming dispute without discussion or reference, so I've reverted it. His move was highly provocative - it undermines the entire basis of the discussion if the title prejudges the outcome. It qualifies as vandalism. --Red King 12:23, 29 September 2005 (UTC)[reply]

It doesn't matter whether there is a dispute or not. The official name is still Londonderry. Anybody who discusses the dispute and uses the name Derry whilst discussing the dispute is merely openly declaring sympathy with the Irish nationalists who wish to change the name to Derry. This applies to some well known guidebooks as well.

Until such times, if ever, that the name is officially changed to Derry, then all official articles relating to this city should be filed under the official name of Londonderry. Let's not forget about the history and the reasons why the city is called Londonderry. Let's not forget about the famous siege of 1689 and the fact that Londonderry is something of a Jerusalem to the Protestant population of Northern Ireland. I've seen far too many official publications pandering to the Irish catholic community and using the name Derry. These sources are often authored by people in far away lands who have no connection whatsoever with Northern Ireland, but who have for whatever reason become romantically attached to the Irish nationalist cause. We hear these people justifying themselves and pretending to be neutral and saying things like 'Derry is the most commonly used name'. (211.72.91.97)

Please don't call changes you disagree with "vandalism". "Derry" is simply the most common name, which is why our article on the city is at Derry and why our article on the city's history is at History of Derry. Using this name in the article title does not prejudge the issue at all; it doesn't say what the "right name" is, but just gives it a simple, standardized name. I am just trying to establish a simple standard for Category:Geographical naming disputes, of which this article is a member.--Pharos 16:07, 29 September 2005 (UTC)[reply]

If your motives are as innocent as you say, then you really need to read some of the talk pages at Derry, County Londonderry and (currently) Seamus Heaney before you go blundering in.

The essence of the dispute is that there are two opposing views of the name of the city (as there are with the name of the county). So the title of the article must reflect that dispute. According to your logic, another editor could equally move the article to Londonderry naming dispute (and I'd revert that too, if it too had been done without debate). If the article is called Derry naming dispute (or Londonderry naming dispute) then it gives precedence to one name or the other and thus precedence to one community view or the other. Wiki has achieved a less-than-perfect, but tolerable to both sides, compromise. Leave it alone.

If you want to persist with this, then you have to use the Request to Move procedure since it is disputed. --Red King 10:52, 30 September 2005 (UTC)[reply]

I Support the merger - the articles cover the same ground. --Red King 23:36, 1 October 2005 (UTC)[reply]

Yes, I too would support a merger. But be careful what the newly merged article is called. It must have both Derry and Londonderry in its title! --Snalwibma 08:55, 7 October 2005 (UTC)[reply]

I have set up Londonderry (name) as a redirect to here, after looking through the article there wasn't really anything new there which wasn't already her or in the History of Derry page. Thanks/Wangi 15:28, 19 October 2005 (UTC)[reply]

Is the local usage of "Stroke City" understood to be a pun of Stoke City F.C.?

I don't think so. Its just a reference to the stroke character between the divsions in the name. Its just a happy coincidence basically, to my knowledge. --Mal 20:11, 23 February 2006 (UTC)[reply]

Answer: "Stroke" City is an allusion to the ailment that may befall the citizens of Derry from eating too many Irish Breakfasts of sausages, bacon, eggs, and black pudding. Irl32csc 11:22, 22 December 2006 (UTC)[reply]

All the better reason to stick to the good oul' Ulster Fry instead. ;) --Mal 04:08, 26 January 2007 (UTC)[reply]

Does anyone have a reference for the Israeli-Palestinian parallel section?

There is no such thing as neutrality in this debate. Every comment in this section is made from either a Unionist perspective or from a Nationalist perspective. What is interesting is the manner in which writers of both persuasions try to pretend that they are being neutral, as if there exists some big competition to prove who can be the most neutral while pushing their own point of view. We see Nationalists claiming neutrality while arguing that the word 'London' shouldn't be in the name for practical purposes. We see Unionists stabbing the Orange Order in the back, stabbing the 12th July in the back, and stabbing other Unionists in the back who argue with Nationalists, and then proceeding to argue as to why the name Londonderry should be retained.

This kind of disguised quibbling doesn't help the outsider to get an understanding of what the dispute is really about. There can be no compromise. The day that 'London' is dropped from the name, then the Nationalists will have won.

Londonderry was set up as a walled city by the City of London Guilds in the 17th Century. It was originally a Protestant city and it holds a special position in Protestant folklore by virtue of the great siege of 1689. The Catholics eventually came to outnumber the Protestants in the city and in 1973 they took over political control. This campaign to drop 'London' from the city name is nothing more than an attempt to rub the noses of the Protestants in the muck.

Meanwhile, until such times as Her Majesty's Government descides to pander to the wishes of the Nationalists and to drop 'London' from the name, then the name should appear as Londonderry for both the city and the county in all official publications. Wikipedia should be as zealous about enforcing the official name for Londonderry as they are about enforcing the new official name of Kolkata for Calcutta. (60.248.3.133 04:22, 9 January 2007 (UTC))[reply]

Oh come on you know very that Queen Elizabeth 2 of England cant drop London form the title as bigots like yourself would cause mayhem. "pander to the wishes of the nationalists" Hhhmmmm I think the wishes of the Unionists have been pandered to long enough," a unionist government for a unionist people?", with gerrymandering rife(oh and if you protest well shoot you down) the sooner partition ends the better, and now that democracy has finnaly come to N.I. it will end.Its inevitable,and you know it!P.S. Ulster is NOT N.I.! Wiki should enforce this fact stickly.

But we don't enforce official names. Kolkata is the most common name for the city by far so in that case it is clear (it is also virtually the only name for inhabitants of that city). In this case the most common name is in hot dispute (and so too among the inhabitants) so we have come up with a compromise that works well. The official name has little if any relevance in naming any wikipedia article. The fact is, there is a naming dispute regardless of what the official name is so this article should say. Also you appear to have a misunderstood NPOV. NPOV doesn't require neutrality in a debate. it simply requires us to present both points of view as neutrally as possible. 203.109.240.93 13:37, 26 January 2007 (UTC)[reply]

It is off-topic here, but http://www.google.co.in/search?q=kolkata+site%3A.in and http://www.google.co.in/search?q=calcutta+site%3A.in get roughly the same number of hits --Henrygb 02:20, 27 January 2007 (UTC)[reply]

Has anyone proposed calling the city "Foyle" or "Foyleside" or "Foyle City"? Names in this vein seem to be the de facto standard anyway.

If such an idea is anything other than my O.R., maybe someone in the know could document its history, rationale and acceptability in a NPOV way.
-- Abut 22:09, 31 January 2007 (UTC) (no flaming please)[reply]

Good idea but it wouldnt happen under British rule as the Queen would have to repeal the old name and Paisleys crowd would cause bloody uproar. Some loyalists eh? What are they even loyal to anymore?

More proof that democracy does not exist in the pseudo state of N.I.Some dead old monarchs antiquated decree carries more weight than the citizens of DERRY. Sooner partition ends the better.In the mean time im of to DublinLondon for a holiday, I might stop at CorkBirmingham and even BelfastLeeds.Afterwhich I shall see the sights of TokyoRome before returning to BerlinParis.