Talk:Criticism of Jesus: Difference between revisions

Kirby... dont use wiki to perpetuate your own obsessions.— Preceding unsigned comment added by Shakaka36 (talk • contribs)

"Some Jews believed that Mary had sex with a Roman soldier and when she became pregnant Mary said that she was carrying the son of God in order to hide the relationship." - I remember this being mentioned on program on the History Channel last summer. I don't remember which one it was, though. Documentary, IIRC.

-- Mik 02:07, 21 November 2006 (UTC)[reply]

I added a reference. --Ķĩřβȳ♥ŤįɱéØ 04:30, 29 December 2006 (UTC)[reply]

Honestly, the page has like 5 sentences, and a paragraph quote. I'm open to criticism of religious figures, but this page is just pathethic, people. The rape part on the page even said into could've just been an Anti-Christian legend. Way to back up claims. Keero 01:08, 17 January 2007 (UTC)[reply]

I noticed on your userpage you have a userbox stating This user is polite and expects others to act accordingly. I would like to ask you if you think that what you just stated is polite ("This page is just pathethic[sic])". And as to the substance of your argument itself, I don't see much of a point. What are you trying to propose? This article does need improvement. But that has nothing to do with the subject of the article itself, I hope you realize that. Thanks. --Ķĩřβȳ♥ŤįɱéØ 03:24, 17 January 2007 (UTC)[reply]

You must admit, it is a pretty poor article.Its as if some angst ridden kid started it.By all means add objective and valid criticisms but try to improve the quality at least.P.S. is it really necessary to use "sic" on a talk page?

The story of Mary's pregnancy by a Roman soldier also appeared in the Qur'an. It stated that 'a full-grown man' forced his attentions on Mary, and in her fear of the disgrace that would follow she left the area and bore Jesus in secret.

This isn't in the Qur'an

Someone find me a version of Contra Celsum which says this. Celsus believed the resurrection was a farce, I think; he didn't comment on the virgin birth. -- Kendrick7^talk 22:47, 13 May 2007 (UTC)[reply]

These statements seem to have been brought over by User:Jonathan Tweet from Historical Jesus from where it was subsequently removed. I'll ping him. -- Kendrick7^talk 22:56, 13 May 2007 (UTC)[reply]

Possibly due to some bad scholarship floating around generally, per this site.

A lot of atheists are quoting portions of R.J.Hoffmann's Celsus: On The True Doctrine, (Oxford University Press, 1987) as if it were an accurate representation of what Celsus wrote. In fact the work is lost, and can only be reconstructed speculatively from Origen Contra Celsum. Even so, Hoffmann's versions seem to owe more to imagination than to the text given by Origen.::

-- Kendrick7^talk 23:04, 13 May 2007 (UTC)[reply]

I didn't originate the Celsus ref and have no evidence for it. It was on another page where it had no place, so I moved it here (IIRC). Jonathan Tweet 13:22, 15 May 2007 (UTC)[reply]

OK, just dotting my t's and crossing my eyes. One of the Talmud quotes was ref'd to Origin which I replace with a fact tag in light of all this. I think that's another anachronism; I know he was a contemporary with Simlai, but I don't think the Talmud was complete at the point. -- Kendrick7^talk 17:59, 15 May 2007 (UTC)[reply]

John P. Meier's A Marginal Jew, p. 223: "Jesus fabricated the account of his birth from a virgin. In reality, Jesus' mother was driven out by the carpenter husband to whom she was betrothed because she had committed adultery with a soldier named Panthera (cf. the Ben Pantere of Jewish sources). Left poor and homeless, she gave birth to Jesus in secret. Jesus later spent time in Egypt, where he hired himself out as a laborer, learned magic, and so came to claim the title of god." which is from Contra Celsus 1.32: "But let us now return to where the Jew is introduced, speaking of the mother of Jesus, and saying that “when she was pregnant she was turned out of doors by the carpenter to whom she had been betrothed, as having been guilty of adultery, and that she bore a child to a certain soldier named Panthera;” and let us see whether those who have blindly concocted these fables about the adultery of the Virgin with Panthera, and her rejection by the carpenter, did not invent these stories to overturn His miraculous conception by the Holy Ghost" and Contra Celsus 1.28: "he accuses Him of having “invented his birth from a virgin,” and upbraids Him with being “born in a certain Jewish village, of a poor woman of the country, who gained her subsistence by spinning, and who was turned out of doors by her husband, a carpenter by trade, because she was convicted of adultery; that after being driven away by her husband, and wandering about for a time, she disgracefully gave birth to Jesus, an illegitimate child, who having hired himself out as a servant in Egypt on account of his poverty, and having there acquired some miraculous powers, on which the Egyptians greatly pride themselves, returned to his own country, highly elated on account of them, and by means of these proclaimed himself a God.”" 68.123.64.11 19:46, 15 May 2007 (UTC)[reply]

Huh, well I see it now. I'll put this in. -- Kendrick7^talk 19:56, 15 May 2007 (UTC)[reply]

I can't find any reference to the Pantera story in The Shows either. -- Kendrick7^talk 23:32, 13 May 2007 (UTC)[reply]

I think this is in Meier also, but I don't have a ref. I think he just mentions the rumor that Jesus was born of a prostitute, possibly here: Tertullian De Spectaculis 30: "“this is that carpenter’s or hireling’s son", hireling being a nice way to say working woman? 68.123.64.11 20:09, 15 May 2007 (UTC)[reply]

I'd be interested to see Meier's reasoning, but on it's face it's a stretch for him to interpret one word that particular way without further context. Everything else in that sentence is from the Gospel narratives. Tertullian could even be using one word here which could be translated as (either) "carpenter or hireling." While the English word carpenter implies a woodworker, I believe the Greek of the New Testament is more precisely "skilled craftsman" which isn't too far from hireling -- see Saint Joseph, while the popular notion of Joseph being a carpenter was influenced by later works, such as the 5th century History of Joseph the Carpenter.

I can't find Meier on Google books. We should try to get this for a secondary ref. (Origen actually is a secondary ref for Celsus, so that isn't a problem). -- Kendrick7^talk 20:34, 15 May 2007 (UTC)[reply]

Latin is here: [1]: "hic est ille, dicam, fabri aut quaestuariae filius, sabbati destructor, Samarites et daemonium habens; hic est quem a Iuda redemistis, hic est ille harundine et colaphis diverberatus, sputamentis dedecoratus, felle et aceto potatus; hic est, quem clam discentes subripuerunt, ut surrexisse dicatur, vel hortulanus detraxit, ne lactucae suae frequentia commeantium adlaederentur." My Latin is rusty, but "fabri aut quaestuariae filius": fabricator or female-money-maker son of.

Also, the standard modern reference for these issues is Raymond E. Brown's Birth of the Messiah, if it's not in there it's probably not legit. 68.123.64.11 20:44, 15 May 2007 (UTC) (note: Appendix V: The Charge of Illegitimacy)[reply]

Meier is: * A Marginal Jew: Rethinking the Historical Jesus, Anchor Bible Reference Library, Doubleday, v. 1, The Roots of the Problem and the Person, 1991, ISBN 0-385-26425-9 68.123.64.11 20:48, 15 May 2007 (UTC)[reply]

A bit more speculative but also worth a mention is Jane Schaberg's The Illegitimacy of Jesus: A Feminist Theological Interpretation of the Infancy Narratives ISBN-10: 190504884X. 68.123.64.11 21:04, 15 May 2007 (UTC)[reply]

Hmm... the first google hit for "quaestuaria" is a Roman law against prostitution. I'll look up Brown, but I might this Latin by User:Lima or User:HarvardOxon There guys take their Latin very seriously. Oh... well, so seriously in fact that Mr. Oxon has retired, apparently due a edit war over the Latin phrase Juris Doctor. -- Kendrick7^talk 21:07, 15 May 2007 (UTC)[reply]

In case you're interested: Morphological Analysis indicates feminine form of quaestŭārĭus: " I. of or belonging to gain, money-making, mercenary (post-Aug.): quaestuaria mancipia, Dig. 3, 2, 4, § 2 : mulier, a prostitute for hire, ib. 23, 2, 43, § 7 : majestas, Tert. Apol. 13 .-- II. Subst.: quaestuaria, ae, f., a prostitute: ex adulterā in quaestuariam versa, Sen. Ben. 6, 32, 1" 68.123.64.11 21:21, 15 May 2007 (UTC)[reply]

See also John 8:41. 75.14.211.146 00:06, 16 May 2007 (UTC)[reply]

Didn't find the best secondary ref for this onine, but at least Google Books had something handy. Lima pointed me to the same Perseus site. I was poking around CMU's online dictionary, which wasn't as helpful. All set now. -- Kendrick7^talk 19:35, 16 May 2007 (UTC)[reply]

And the elders of the Jews answered, and said to Jesus: What shall we see? First, that thou wast born of fornication; secondly, that thy birth in Bethlehem was the cause of the murder of the infants; thirdly, that thy father Joseph and thy mother Mary fled into Egypt because they had no confidence in the people. Some of the bystanders, pious men of the Jews, say: we deny that he was born of fornication; for we know that Joseph espoused Mary, and he was not born of fornication. Pilate says to the Jews who said that he was of fornication: This story of yours is not true, because they were betrothed, as also these fellow countrymen of yours say. Annas and Caiaphas say to Pilate: All the multitude of us cry out that he was born of fornication, and are not believed; these are proselytes, and his disciples.

This is the reason for my reversion. Some time ago, I'd taken the initiative to trim down the original text and removed some errors, and attempted to rephrase things to be less POV, but I didn't catch all the errors (mostly just the blatant ones, as this text is copied from Religious perspectives on Jesus, or vice versa). However, I believe the original statement is accurate. Not all Jews believed this, as the above text testifies.--C.Logan 18:19, 15 May 2007 (UTC)[reply]

But what you'd put in the article is that a "majority" believed he was Joseph's offspring. That's plainly not what the text says. The "elders" say he was, the "pious" ones say he wasn't. I don't see anything resembling a general poll of Jews going on here; for all we know everyone one else was undecided. -- Kendrick7^talk 18:30, 15 May 2007 (UTC)[reply]

What? What the article said was that a majority believed he was born of fornication, i.e. outside of marriage:

"The text Acts of Pilate it is asserted that a majority of the Jews believed that Jesus was born of fornication."

Although I see what you're saying about the ambiguity of the text. Although 'some' by itself indicates that it was a minority amount, I've added the last sentence which follows to give a full understanding of the text, and makes it clear that the elders and the multitude claimed he was born of fornication. Hopefully you see what I'm saying. --C.Logan 20:25, 15 May 2007 (UTC)[reply]

The text is here: [2]. I note: "Pilate says to Annas and Caiaphas: Have you nothing to answer to this? Annas and Caiaphas say to Pilate: These twelve are believed when they say that he was not born of fornication; all the multitude of us cry out that he was born of fornication, and that he is a sorcerer, and he says that he is the Son of God and a king, and we are not believed." Seems like it was a "mulitude" who said Jesus was born of fornication whereas "12" said he was not. But I haven't studied the text in any depth. 68.123.64.11 20:21, 15 May 2007 (UTC)[reply]

Now you've convinced me. There's a more general problem with using Acts of Pilate under a "historical" heading, though. Historical takes on a much more precise meaning, and our article suggest this was written for entertainment purposes. -- Kendrick7^talk 20:45, 15 May 2007 (UTC)[reply]

The current changes work best, although I'm unsure if it's necessary to specify that the high priests said it rather than simply explaining that the text expresses it. Also, I get frustrated at edit conflicts, because I'd run into one with the anon user and had forgotten to add the above sentence to the quoted text (thus making part of my paragraph nonsensical).--C.Logan 21:04, 15 May 2007 (UTC)[reply]