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===Was he gay?===
|archiveheader = {{aan}}
I wouldn't usually care about a person's sexual orientation, but being someone unfamiliar with the artist and reading through the article, it seems contributors and literature have been very implicit towards this topic to the point of refusing to approach it in a straightforward manner or trying to hide the fact. But this only serves to create a lot of ambiguity and confusion, even if no one knows for sure this should be made clear? <small>—Preceding [[Wikipedia:Signatures|unsigned]] comment added by [[Special:Contributions/116.15.74.154|116.15.74.154]] ([[User talk:116.15.74.154|talk]]) 10:53, 28 July 2008 (UTC)</small><!-- Template:UnsignedIP --> <!--Autosigned by SineBot-->
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===What movement was Bacon really a part of?===
|minthreadsleft = 3
In "The Colony Room" section, the sentence that David Sylvester was wrong in..."but had erroneously perceived it to be a form of Expressionism" needs to be cited. The MoMA, where <i>Painting</i> is located, refers to Bacon as a Post-War Expressionist.* In this article, he is cited as a figurative painter, which doesn't describe his work well enough. Searching around, too, he is repeatedly referred to as either an Abstract Expressionist or a Post-War Expressionist.
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*Here is the PDF from the MoMA:
|archive = Talk:Francis Bacon (artist)/Archive %(counter)d
http://www.moma.org/about_moma/press/2004/P_S_Main.pdf
}}
[[User:Jeni Mc|Jeni Mc]] 16:14, 15 May 2007 (UTC)
{{OnThisDay|date1=2018-10-28|oldid1=866116636}}

== Cleanup ==
Francis Bacon should definitely not be listed as a "figurative" painter. In his interviews with David Sylvester, "The Brutality of Fact: Interviews with Francis Bacon 1962-1979" (New York: Thames and Hudson, 1987), he is quite critical of figurative art. Figurative art is representational art. Bacon is not a representational artist. The difference between figural and figurative is brought out by Jean-François Lyotard in his "Libidinal Economy" as well as in Gilles Deleuze's book on Bacon, "Francis Bacon: The Logic of Sensation." Figurative relates to narrative. Bacon's art does not seek to tell a story or narrate. He is a figural artist or an abstract artist, but not a figurative one. [[User:Lemomo|Lemomo]] ([[User talk:Lemomo|talk]]) 18:08, 1 July 2008 (UTC)

:Bacon defined himself as a figurative painter in the 1985 South Bank Show special (at about 6.30 in [http://uk.youtube.com/watch?v=VbCeNlFmmSo&feature=related this clip]). [[User:Nic Dafis|Nic Dafis]] ([[User talk:Nic Dafis|talk]]) 12:28, 31 August 2008 (UTC)

===A note on title/date forms===
I have used the title form
:''Painting.'' 1946
throughout. This is preferable to
:''Painting'' (1946)
since (although not part of the title) the date is crucial in distinguishing it from
:''Painting.'' 1950
for instance, and is not a mere adjunct.
:''Painting, 1946''
is wrong as the title is "Painting".
The forms
:''Painting,'' 1946
and
:''Painting'' 1946
are also correct but less clear. If applied it should be done throughout the article to avoid confusion. -- [[User:82.43.154.23]] 03:21, 27 September 2005

::Well I agree that the style should be consistent. I suspect that it isn't something that is covered by the [[MoS|Manual of Style]] yet. In general I prefer the second form, however, it is a subject that is better discussed at [[Wikipedia talk:WikiProject Visual arts]], since this would apply to many arts related articles. -- [[User:Solipsist|Solipsist]] 08:47, 27 September 2005 (UTC)

:The second form seems to be the 'house style' here. I would argue for a special case to be allowed for the MoMA painting, which is spoken of as "Painting 1946" even though the title is "Painting". I propose that the last form, which is that of the 1964 ''catalogue raisonné'', be used in this case. [[User:82.43.154.23|82.43.154.23]] 13:46, 27 September 2005 (UTC)

On reflection, I have brought ''Painting'' (1946) into conformity with the rest of the article. [[User:82.43.154.23|82.43.154.23]] 12:39, 28 September 2005 (UTC)

:There could well be a case for making an exception for some paintings with generic names. It can be particularly tricky to identify the work of some modern artists who steadfastly refuse to title their work anything other than 'untitled' &mdash; especially when they are likely to have done several 'untitled's in the same year. I often see Roman numerals being applied in such cases, for example
::''Untitled IX'' (1992), oil on canvas.
:but I have never been sure whether its the artist or the gallery who added the Roman numerals.
:Similar problems occur with many medieval canvases where several titles might apply (most of them derived from different sources at much later dates). In those cases the size of the painting is also usually used to help identify a specific painting.
:My impression is that the most common long format when refering to works of art is;
::Artist, ''Title'', (date) width x height, medium, collection.
:but you still see plenty of variations. -- [[User:Solipsist|Solipsist]] 15:59, 28 September 2005 (UTC)

== Title ==

When I entered Francis Bacon in Wiki search, only the 17thC. philosopher came up - needs disambiguation.--[[User:Shtove|shtove]] 23:24, 10 October 2005 (UTC)

== Hmmmm ==

I think the Biographical detail is fantastic, but it abruptly stops in the early 50's, and I don't think that someone learning about Bacon for the first time would want to wade through the words that lead up to influences...he was an artist...and there is little discussion of technique... [[User:Gareth E Kegg]] 22:49, 19 October 2005
:Thank-you for my share of the compliment, but I have only been revising this article since 21/9/05. I do plan to go on into the 1950s, 1960s and 1970s, and summarize the 1980s and 1990s as well; I plan to have a section on his technique, one on the interviews with Sylvester, and a separate article on the estate. Please do go ahead and start any of these you are able and willing to. The point is well made about a neopyhte coming to this article, but, a few pictures of major works, of ''Three Studies for Figures at the Base of a Crucifixion'' and ''Painting'' (1946) in particular, would help. Copyright is with the Estate but may be judged 'fair use' in this context(?). The 'Contents' near the top of the article allows anyone to skip the earlier sections without the need to wade.([[User:82.43.154.23|82.43.154.23]] 01:47, 20 October 2005 (UTC))

At some point in the early/mid 50s, Bacon bought a house in Queen's Road in the village of [[Wivenhoe]], Essex. I recall Nicholas Butler writing about this in his book, "The Story of Wivenhoe", but unfortunately my copy has gone walkabout. Does anyone have further details? [[User:Daen|Daen]] 15:02, 4 April 2006 (UTC)
:I found it - it was a one-line reference from the Wivenhoe Town Council guide to the village from 1993, not Nick Butler. Wirth-Miller lived in the village in the early 50s, and Bacon spent time in a "holiday cottage" in Queen's Road. [[User:Daen|Daen]] 13:56, 25 April 2006 (UTC)

I was surprised there was no mention of Bacon's homosexuality, save an oblique reference in a footnote, in this article. Perhaps this would be an appropriate area to expand upon, at least in passing in the painter's basic history.<small>—The preceding [[Wikipedia:Sign your posts on talk pages|unsigned]] comment was added by [[User:Catachrestic|Catachrestic]] ([[User talk:Catachrestic|talk]] • [[Special:Contributions/Catachrestic|contribs]]) 00:10, 18 May 2006 (UTC).</small>

:There is a mention of his relationship with George Dyer in the "Later Life" section. [[User:Jeni Mc|Jeni Mc]] 15:55, 15 May 2007 (UTC)

== Feature article? ==

I think this is a great article. Though "Bacon's legacy" could be expanded... [[User:Selfinformation|Selfinformation]] 17:35, 5 May 2006 (UTC)

:Theres one thing as too much info and optimal infomation, after a quick review i find the article to be a little indulgent and giving perhaps too much info that is not properly placed or ordered. Certainly not optimal information me thinks.

==Restructure==

I'd like to move the discussion of specific painting to dedicated articles, leaving this page for purely biographical info. I think this is a great article as is, but perhalps could be expanded into an excellent FB category. --[[User:Coil00|Coil00]] 23:57, 21 July 2006 (UTC)

==Question about grammar in intro paragraph==

He also created "an" portrait of Michele Leiris? Surely this is incorrect, or is there some obscure "an" rule I am overlooking?

== "Anglo-Irish" ==

I object to the term [[Anglo-Irish]] being used in the opening paragraph.By that logic Oasis and most members of the Beatles should be classified as [[Hiberno-Saxon]]. Ireland has suffered enough devision and fragmenation.A note in the biographical section stating that Bacon was of English parentage should suffice. <small>—The preceding [[Wikipedia:Sign your posts on talk pages|unsigned]] comment was added by [[Special:Contributions/89.101.222.28|89.101.222.28]] ([[User talk:89.101.222.28|talk]]) 21:15, 6 April 2007 (UTC).</small><!-- HagermanBot Auto-Unsigned -->

:I think its fine, by every definition of the term Bacon was Anglo-Irish. He was born in Dublin to Protestant English parents who often travelled back and forth between the two islands. The term is widely used, and not in the least derogatory. [[User:Ceoil|Ceoil]] 19:28, 15 May 2007 (UTC)


Let's call him British and everybody will be happy on the other side of the island!!! <small>—Preceding [[Wikipedia:Signatures|unsigned]] comment added by [[Special:Contributions/86.157.15.81|86.157.15.81]] ([[User talk:86.157.15.81|talk]]) 21:38, 18 May 2008 (UTC)</small><!-- Template:UnsignedIP --> <!--Autosigned by SineBot-->
*The trouble is [[Anglo-Irish]] has an established meaning whichy fits Bacon very well, whereas [[Hiberno-Saxon]] has one which doesn't fit Oasis in the slightest. In this section, & the one below there is a clear concensus to restore something on what he regarded as his identity, so I will put "British" back. [[User:Johnbod|Johnbod]] ([[User talk:Johnbod|talk]]) 20:31, 10 July 2008 (UTC)
I'd suggest that Hiberno-British is a viable category in cases where we want to say that a person is more Irish than British. But Bacon's circumstances seem to indicate the Anglo-Irish term more fitting. Even then, in his case this may give away too much to Irishness, so perhaps the most accurate description is the more cumbersome: 'English painter born in Ireland'. Or if that cuts out too much Irishness, then: 'English painter born and largely raised in Ireland'. Note also that to call him an 'Irish born British painter' subsumes his Englishness! What is certain is that the reference to him as an 'Irish' painter in the disambiguation section is obviously wrong. <small>—Preceding [[Wikipedia:Signatures|unsigned]] comment added by [[Special:Contributions/194.129.67.165|194.129.67.165]] ([[User talk:194.129.67.165|talk]]) 10:46, 13 July 2008 (UTC)</small><!-- Template:UnsignedIP --> <!--Autosigned by SineBot-->

=== "Being Irish" ===
The article indicates that Bacon was born to English parents, but then states later that Straffan Lodge in Naas, County Kildare, was the birthplace of both parents. Unless I misread it, the article supports the theory that someone born in one country of parents, both of whom were born in that same country is actually partially of a different country. Does the writer know how far back one has to go into Bacon's family history to actually find someone born in England?

I think they'll try to do that soon!!! <small>—Preceding [[Wikipedia:Signatures|unsigned]] comment added by [[Special:Contributions/86.157.15.81|86.157.15.81]] ([[User talk:86.157.15.81|talk]]) 21:35, 18 May 2008 (UTC)</small><!-- Template:UnsignedIP --> <!--Autosigned by SineBot-->

From my reading of Bacon's bigraphies he considered himself British, so why not just call him that?
"Irish born Briton" perhaps? <small>—Preceding [[Wikipedia:Signatures|unsigned]] comment added by [[Special:Contributions/92.3.203.152|92.3.203.152]] ([[User talk:92.3.203.152|talk]]) 14:42, 16 June 2008 (UTC)</small><!-- Template:UnsignedIP --> <!--Autosigned by SineBot-->
The fact that his parents were English and he spent his childhood and early teens between the two countries indicates that it would be mistaken to say that he is Irish in the way that someone who was born in Ireland of Irish parents and remained in Ireland could be. The distinction is emphasised by the fact that he chose to live in England from his late teens till the end of his life. The most accurate description would be that he was English and born in Ireland, although the more general specification of 'Anglo-Irish' would perhaps be fairer to both inheritances. Bacon's case is clearly distinct from the case of Oasis given that they are English and choose to live in England despite their preferring to call themselves Irish. Choice is perhaps the most precise indicator of personal identity. Nonetheless, the Hiberno-English epithet may well be an entirely suitable term for them. Or English with Irish parents, although this may be unacceptable so 'Irish musicians with Irish parents born in England and spent entire lives in England' might be more suitable? Note that the difference between 'Hiberno-English' and 'Anglo-Irish' is that as with that term it indicates primacy of influence to the former culture, so we have a new point of contest.[[Special:Contributions/194.129.67.166|194.129.67.166]] ([[User talk:194.129.67.166|talk]]) 16:35, 10 July 2008 (UTC)
*"Irish born British" or "Anglo-Irish" would both do - it should not be left as it is. [[User:Johnbod|Johnbod]] ([[User talk:Johnbod|talk]]) 20:27, 10 July 2008 (UTC)

Should The President of Ireland or Bobby Sands having been born in Northern Ireland be considered Anglo-Irish? Or a British born Irish?
I think the legal status defines the nationality, not the birthplace. What passport did Bacon travel on? <span style="font-size: smaller;" class="autosigned">—Preceding [[Wikipedia:Signatures|unsigned]] comment added by [[Special:Contributions/15.203.169.106|15.203.169.106]] ([[User talk:15.203.169.106|talk]]) 10:36, 1 October 2008 (UTC)</span><!-- Template:UnsignedIP --> <!--Autosigned by SineBot-->

:Wikipedia policy is [[WP:V]], [[WP:NPOV]] and [[WP:NOR]], i.e. follow what reliable sources say: don't try to work it out yourself. '''''[[User:Tyrenius|<font color="#880088">Ty</font>]]''''' 12:40, 1 October 2008 (UTC)
::Until very recently, the Irish constitution began "The territory of the Republic is the whole island of Ireland" and those born in Northern Ireland have always qualified automatically for Irish passports, and still do. [[User:Johnbod|Johnbod]] ([[User talk:Johnbod|talk]]) 13:01, 1 October 2008 (UTC)

I don't think where someone is born is sufficient to determine their national identity. If either Bacon or his parents were born in Ireland that doesn't automatically make them or anyone else Irish. Oasis's somewhat unlikely claim that they are in fact Irish is not undermined by the fact that they were born in England, it is undermined by the fact that they are so obviously parochially Mancunian. Legal status is also inadequate as a criterion as this could hinge on a number of factors.[[Special:Contributions/194.129.67.165|194.129.67.165]] ([[User talk:194.129.67.165|talk]]) 17:22, 13 October 2008 (UTC)

If a person is born in Ireland and their parents were also born in Ireland, they are Irish. I do not think there is anything ambiguous about this. The fact that going back farther his family were of British descent is already reflected by his surname. To belabour this point, the anglo saxons came from Germany, so should we call him German British Irish? Actually humans are thought to have originated in Africa, so maybe we should include that also if we are to retrace everyones family tree. [[Special:Contributions/147.114.226.175|147.114.226.175]] ([[User talk:147.114.226.175|talk]]) 10:04, 17 October 2008 (UTC)
:They are "Irish-born", which we say. You may know the Duke of Wellington's comment on his similar situation. [[User:Johnbod|Johnbod]] ([[User talk:Johnbod|talk]]) 10:06, 17 October 2008 (UTC)

Roughly how many generations of a family have to be born in a country for them to be considered of that nationality? Should we dig through the rest of Wikipedia and change the nationality of every famous British person who does not have a British surname? The opening paragraph details his upbringing and how much time he spent in various countries. [[Special:Contributions/147.114.226.175|147.114.226.175]] ([[User talk:147.114.226.175|talk]]) 10:17, 17 October 2008 (UTC)
:There are long established guidelines on how people's national identities are described. The key thing is how they identified themselves, and there appears to be no evidence Bacon regarded himself as Irish. Equally [[Henry Kissinger]] is not German, but German-born. And so on. See also [[Wikipedia:Manual of Style (biographies)]]. [[User:Johnbod|Johnbod]] ([[User talk:Johnbod|talk]]) 10:22, 17 October 2008 (UTC)

Has anybody got any sources on this? '''''[[User:Tyrenius|<font color="#880088">Ty</font>]]''''' 10:35, 17 October 2008 (UTC)
:"English painter, born in Dublin." from [http://www.oxfordartonline.com Oxford Art Online] (subscription required or membership of a subscribing public library). '''''[[User:Tyrenius|<font color="#880088">Ty</font>]]''''' 10:39, 17 October 2008 (UTC)
:: Getty Union Name List has "English painter" too [http://www.getty.edu/vow/ULANFullDisplay?find=Francis+Bacon&role=&nation=&prev_page=1&subjectid=500021153] [[User:Johnbod|Johnbod]] ([[User talk:Johnbod|talk]]) 10:53, 17 October 2008 (UTC)
Many Irish artists left the country and did not like the place, that does not make them any less Irish. Sean O'Casey is a good example. http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Sean_O%27Casey#England

Oscar Wilde had a very similar background to Bacon and is undisputed as being Irish. http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Oscar_wilde

[[Special:Contributions/147.114.226.175|147.114.226.175]] ([[User talk:147.114.226.175|talk]]) 10:46, 17 October 2008 (UTC)

I think it is quite a reasonable arguement that considering he was born in Ireland to parents who were also born in Ireland but of English descent, and he lived there until age 16, that the article should state that he is Irish. The burden of proof is on those who claim that spending most of your life in another country changes your nationality. [[Special:Contributions/147.114.226.175|147.114.226.175]] ([[User talk:147.114.226.175|talk]]) 10:55, 17 October 2008 (UTC)

It is worthwhile noting that his British born Grandparents also lived in Ireland. [[Special:Contributions/147.114.226.175|147.114.226.175]] ([[User talk:147.114.226.175|talk]]) 10:59, 17 October 2008 (UTC)

:If you want to contribute to wikipedia, you have to follow wikipedia policies, which do not allow [[WP:NOR|personal opinion and deduction]]. You have to find a [[WP:RS|reliable source]] to [[WP:V|validate]] content. There are two sources above specifically for Bacon. Find something as valid that differs; then we can move forward in the discussion. Otherwise, we go by the sources we have. '''''[[User:Tyrenius|<font color="#880088">Ty</font>]]''''' 10:59, 17 October 2008 (UTC)

OK, here you go. http://66.102.9.104/search?q=cache:O_tKnSIrE-8J:www.artnet.com/artist/1799/francis-bacon.html+francis+bacon+irish&hl=en&ct=clnk&cd=2&gl=uk and http://www.hughlane.ie/francis_bacons_studio.php?type=Bacon%92s+Youth&heading=Bacon%92s+Life&rsno=2 and http://66.102.9.104/search?q=cache:kUIg3FVjaZ8J:20thcenturyart.suite101.com/article.cfm/francis_bacon_painter+francis+bacon+irish&hl=en&ct=clnk&cd=11&gl=uk.
So we have the fact that he was born in Ireland, lived there for sixteen years, his parents were Irish, and his British grandparents lived in Ireland, and a link describing him as an Irish painter. On the other side, we have the fact that he lived in Britain for most of his life, and a witty line from the Duke of Wellington to make him British.
[[Special:Contributions/147.114.226.175|147.114.226.175]] ([[User talk:147.114.226.175|talk]]) 11:30, 17 October 2008 (UTC)
::Neither of the websiters calling him Irish are very authoritative compared to Getty and Oxford, and the Hugh Lane Gallery notably refrains from calling him Irish, and calls his parents English. [[Hugh Lane]] himself is an interesting comparison - brought up & living his adult life in England, but identifying as Irish, which is what we call him. [[User:Johnbod|Johnbod]] ([[User talk:Johnbod|talk]]) 11:46, 17 October 2008 (UTC)

Can you explain to me how this case differs from Oscar Wilde? Should WB Yeats be classified as British also considering he is of English descent, and lived for a while in London? Oxford could be accused as being a biased party being a British University. It appears that you refuse to consider any of the facts given. His birth in Ireland and youth spent there should be enough. Then you ask for links, they have been provided, then you claim that he did not feel Irish, what is this based upon?

Sting, for example, claims to be a citizen of the world. http://www.google.co.uk/search?hl=en&safe=active&q=sting+%22citizen+of+the+world%22&meta= but I note on Wikipedia he is listed as English. This is probably because he was born in England. [[Special:Contributions/147.114.226.175|147.114.226.175]] ([[User talk:147.114.226.175|talk]]) 12:02, 17 October 2008 (UTC)

:You have to be accurate to sources. Lane does not say he was Irish. We know he was born in Ireland: that is not at issue. Questions about other people won't help here. We're not dealing with them. You need something more reliable than artnet. "His birth in Ireland and youth spent there should be enough." No, that's just an opinion. Find the references. '''''[[User:Tyrenius|<font color="#880088">Ty</font>]]''''' 12:17, 17 October 2008 (UTC)

Earlier I edited the article to state that he was Irish, but lived most of his life in the UK, where he did most of his painting. Do you not think that is a more accurate description than what is currently on the article. It seems that other than providing a link (which I dispute) that says he is British, you have not put forth any reasonable arguement for his Britishness. Based on what is he British?

Above it is argued that Oasis, who are British born, but of Irish descent, but who have said in interviews that they are Irish, remain British. (For the record I agree that they are British)
[[Special:Contributions/147.114.226.173|147.114.226.173]] ([[User talk:147.114.226.173|talk]]) 12:33, 17 October 2008 (UTC)
:Personally I think [[Anglo-Irish]] would be a useful term to introduce, but concensus was against this above. [[User:Johnbod|Johnbod]] ([[User talk:Johnbod|talk]]) 12:53, 17 October 2008 (UTC)

:(edit conflict - I was replying to 147.114.226.173) Wikipedia is not edited by argument, but by sources. Find what they say: that's the only thing that counts. Reference work ''Artists in Britain since 1945'' just says "born in Dublish of English parents". [http://www.tate.org.uk/servlet/ArtistWorks?cgroupid=999999961&artistid=682&page=1&sole=y&collab=y&attr=y&sort=default&tabview=bio Tate gallery] says the same. The New York Times calls him British[http://topics.nytimes.com/top/reference/timestopics/people/b/francis_bacon/index.html?inline=nyt-per&&] - see 2 extracts in the "Highlights from the archive" section. [[Adrian Searle]] in The Guardian calls him "famous British painter.[http://www.guardian.co.uk/artanddesign/2008/sep/09/bacon.art] '''''[[User:Tyrenius|<font color="#880088">Ty</font>]]''''' 13:04, 17 October 2008 (UTC)

You are standing on shaky grounds my friend, when you have to point out that you are avoiding the use of logic and argument. I have provided links that refer to him as Irish, and it is not in dispute that he was born and raised in Ireland, but did have British grandparents. He is as British as the Elgin Marbles are. I think this article should be flagged stating that the facts are disputed and maybe a moderator should step in.[[Special:Contributions/147.114.226.175|147.114.226.175]] ([[User talk:147.114.226.175|talk]]) 13:12, 17 October 2008 (UTC)

The Guardian article you linked to states. "Francis Bacon, the Irish-born painter whose abstract images of psychological and physical brutality made him one of the most exalted, and most disliked artists of the postwar era" At no point in the piece does it call him British. Here is a link to a Telegraph article that refers to Oscar Wilde as a "Great British Wit" http://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/uknews/1566243/Oscar-Wilde-voted-greatest-British-wit.html Oscar was born in Dublin, much like Francis Bacon, and even though the british may wish to claim them, both are still Irish. [[Special:Contributions/147.114.226.175|147.114.226.175]] ([[User talk:147.114.226.175|talk]]) 13:27, 17 October 2008 (UTC)

:Guardian article paragraph 10: "Protestant Irish-born 99 years ago, Bacon grew to be the most famous British painter of the latter half of the 20th century." '''''[[User:Tyrenius|<font color="#880088">Ty</font>]]''''' 13:31, 17 October 2008 (UTC)

::[[WP:VERIFY]] is what counts here. Find reliable sources. Lane only says: "Francis Bacon was born at 63 Lower Baggot Street, Dublin on 28 October 1909, of English parentage". That leaves artnet. '''''[[User:Tyrenius|<font color="#880088">Ty</font>]]''''' 13:32, 17 October 2008 (UTC)

OK, here you go.
http://encyclopedia.farlex.com/Bacon,+Francis+(painter)

http://www.rte.ie/arts/2008/0207/baconf.html

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Love_Is_the_Devil:_Study_for_a_Portrait_of_Francis_Bacon

http://www.thecnj.com/review/2008/100208/feature100208_01.html

http://www.theartwolf.com/self-portraits/bacon-self-portrait.htm

http://www.guardian.co.uk/artanddesign/2008/aug/10/art

How many more do you need? Note that the last article makes the same mistake as you and refers to him as British once, but Irish about five times. Its also nice to see one of his friends saying "He was very gracious and kind, that was one of his Irish qualities."

What do we do now, should we correct this article? [[Special:Contributions/147.114.226.175|147.114.226.175]] ([[User talk:147.114.226.175|talk]]) 13:52, 17 October 2008 (UTC)
:: Not sure what to make of the last one, where a close friend describes him as "best of British". Nice piece though. [[RTE]] think he is Irish, but the rest are not authoritative in any sense. [[User:Johnbod|Johnbod]] ([[User talk:Johnbod|talk]]) 14:45, 17 October 2008 (UTC)

So using arguement and logic (which I know you guys like to disregard), he is clearly Irish, or at least as Irish as Oscar Wilde. There are numerous articles describing him as an Irish Painter, and a friend talks about his Irish qualities (In a British Newspaper). The Irish national Broadcaster (RTE) describes him as Irish. On the other hand he did live most of his life in London. I propose that the wording is changed to

- Francis Bacon (28 October 1909 – 28 April 1992) was an Irish- born figurative painter, who lived in the UK from the age of 16. He was a collateral descendant of the Elizabethan philosopher Francis Bacon. His artwork is known for its bold, austere, and often grotesque or nightmarish imagery. -

After that the article picks up describing his ancestory, youth and where he lived during his life. <span style="font-size: smaller;" class="autosigned">—Preceding [[Wikipedia:Signatures|unsigned]] comment added by [[Special:Contributions/147.114.226.175|147.114.226.175]] ([[User talk:147.114.226.175|talk]]) 15:27, 17 October 2008 (UTC)</span><!-- Template:UnsignedIP --> <!--Autosigned by SineBot-->

:Don't be sarcastic. It's not appreciated round here. What we actually have is a conflict of sources, some saying he is British and others Irish. When that occurs, we do not choose, but represent both viewpoints with the appropriate reference(s) given, and let the reader decide for themselves. What is not in dispute, I believe, is that he had English parents and was born in Ireland, so that should be stated, and the difference over nationality explained. What passport did he have? That surely is his nationality. '''''[[User:Tyrenius|<font color="#880088">Ty</font>]]''''' 15:34, 17 October 2008 (UTC)

Let us be clear. The article states that Straffan Lodge in Naas, County Kildare, was the birthplace of both parents. His grandparents were British born. [[Special:Contributions/147.114.226.175|147.114.226.175]] ([[User talk:147.114.226.175|talk]]) 15:47, 17 October 2008 (UTC)

== Grammar? ==
In the 3rd paragraph in the "London, Berlin, and Paris" section, it says:

: "...One of the men was an ex-army friend of his father, another breeder of race-horses, named Harcourt-Smith. Bacon later claimed that his father had asked this friend to take him 'in-hand' and 'make a man of him'. Francis had a difficult relationship with his father, once admitting to be[ing] sexually attracted to him...."

This makes it sound as if Francis was sexually attracted to his own father (which I can understand would make the relationship difficult). Should it say, instead, that he was attracted to Harcourt-Smith? [[User:Z Wylld|Z Wylld]] 20:09, 9 August 2007 (UTC)
:No, you were right the first time. See his "Screaming Pope" series from the early 1950s. [[User:Ceoil|Ceoil]] 20:13, 9 August 2007 (UTC)


3rd-4th graphs could use some edits. "Bon vivant" and "bleak" repeat. One can be existential '''AND''' be charismatic, well-read, and articulate. [[User:Worldlelvr|Worldlelvr]] ([[User talk:Worldlelvr|talk]]) 06:26, 26 April 2024 (UTC)
== Delezue ==


== RfC: Infobox reassessment ==
"The philosopher Gilles Deleuze has contributed greatly to the interpretation of Bacon's work."
<!-- [[User:DoNotArchiveUntil]] 20:01, 5 August 2024 (UTC) -->{{User:ClueBot III/DoNotArchiveUntil|1722888071}}
This line seems to me out of place in the opening paragraph of the entry. Is there some special connection between Deleuze and Bacon that merits this? In what way is Deleuze contribution any greater (in some objective sense) than any other critic? [[User:Axamoto|Axamoto]] 20:23, 9 August 2007 (UTC)
{{Archive top
:I agree its out of place in the current form of a very short and weak lead. Several heavyweights wrote extensively on Bacon, Deleuze was paticularly insightful, but so were Leiris, Sylvester etc. [[User:Ceoil|Ceoil]] 20:30, 9 August 2007 (UTC)
|result =Sometimes discussions about infoboxes can be contentious, this is not one of those cases. There is a clear consensus in '''support''' of adding an infobox to the article. If further discussion is necessary as to what information to include in the infobox, that can be achieved through opening a new section.<small>([[Wikipedia:Non-admin closure|non-admin closure]])</small>[[User:Isaidnoway|<b style="font-family:Times New Roman; color:blue"> ''Isaidnoway'' </b>]][[User talk:Isaidnoway|<b style="font-family:Times New Roman; color:#03B54F">''(talk)''</b>]] 19:52, 27 July 2024 (UTC)}}
I have to admit that I am a bit puzzled reading through the previous RfC regarding the use of an infobox on this page—I was not aware that infoboxes were considered controversial.


However, given 3 years have passed since that consensus was formed, I would like to see if there was still a consensus against the inclusion of an infobox among the editors of this article.
==Fair use rationale for Image:Interviews with Francis Bacon (1993).jpg==
[[User:Ithinkiplaygames|Ithinkiplaygames]] ([[User talk:Ithinkiplaygames|talk]]) 19:50, 1 July 2024 (UTC)
[[Image:Nuvola apps important.svg|70px|left]]
'''[[:Image:Interviews with Francis Bacon (1993).jpg]]''' is being used on this article. I notice the image page specifies that the image is being used under [[Wikipedia:Fair use|fair use]] but there is no [[Wikipedia:Fair use rationale guideline|explanation or rationale]] as to why its use in '''this''' Wikipedia article constitutes fair use. In addition to the [[Wikipedia:Image copyright tags/Fair use|boilerplate fair use template]], you must also write out on the image description page a specific explanation or rationale for why using this image in each article is consistent with [[WP:FU|fair use]].


:* '''Support''', as proposer. I believe an infobox would serve this article better than the lack thereof:
Please go to [[:Image:Interviews with Francis Bacon (1993).jpg|the image description page]] and edit it to include a [[Wikipedia:Fair use rationale guideline |fair use rationale]]. Using one of the templates at [[Wikipedia:Fair use rationale guideline]] is an easy way to insure that your image is in compliance with Wikipedia policy, but remember that you must complete the template. Do not simply insert a blank template on an image page.
:# Infoboxes are to an article's lead section as a lead section is to an article—an even more summarized, at-a-glance list of key facts about a person. This article's lead section is ''long'', and thus an infobox would provide an outsized benefit to the reader compared to articles with shorter leads.
:# The <code>|nationality=</code> field has been deprecated per [[MOS:INFOBOXNTLY]], and thus, any potential controversy about Bacon's nationality should not be a factor in the addition of an infobox.
:# The debate over Bacon's particular style and movement, too, seem to have settled down—the lead currently describes him solely as a "[[Figurative art|figurative]] painter". If additional nuance is desired in the infobox, it can be added via a footnote.
:[[User:Ithinkiplaygames|Ithinkiplaygames]] ([[User talk:Ithinkiplaygames|talk]]) 19:55, 1 July 2024 (UTC)
:*'''Support''' adding an infobox to the article. I'm looking over other articles for artists throughout history, and it seems quite unusual to not have an infobox. Many of the arguments in the previous RfC, in my opinion, don't feel like great arguments in opposition of an infobox as they were two and a half years ago; and they're much less applicable now.
:Namely:
:* {{tq|An infobox shrinks the image too much}} does not feel like a strong argument against the infobox as a whole; a different picture can simply be chosen, or the image reformatted.
:* {{tq|Duplication of information}} many infoboxes duplicate information in an article lede, such as birth date and name; this is intentional, and I've not seen any issue taken with infoboxes in general.
:* {{tq|but Bacon is singularly unsuited to categorisation}} is the argument that opposed the addition of the infobox that has confused me the most. I don't see why Bacon specifically is uniquely unsuitable to be categorized; no sources to my knowledge bring this up, and as per nom there is consensus on his style, so this is a non-issue. Though I am also confused as to why this is an argument against the infobox as a whole. [[User:SmittenGalaxy|<span style="font-weight:bold; color:#663399; text-shadow:3px 3px 5px #dda0dd">SmittenGalaxy</span>]] <span style="font-weight:bold">&#124;</span> [[User_talk:SmittenGalaxy|<span style="font-style:italic; color:#000080">talk!</span>]] 01:20, 2 July 2024 (UTC)
*'''Support''' - I've always found the anti-infobox position strange. It's useful information at a glace. Opposition to it is often very elitist feeling... "we have the information in prose, they should just read the article!" Let's have some respect for people's time and give them some quick reference facts in an organized manner at a glance. [[User:Fieari|Fieari]] ([[User talk:Fieari|talk]]) 07:31, 2 July 2024 (UTC)
*'''Comment''' - What will be the content of the infobox? [[User:Senorangel|Senorangel]] ([[User talk:Senorangel|talk]]) 04:33, 3 July 2024 (UTC)
*:Probably {{tl|Infobox artist}}, if I had to assume. It's the same one used in the reverted diff from the previous RfC, as well as what is used on most artists' pages. I suppose {{tl|Infobox person}} could also be used, but that includes no specific parameters for things such as notable works or art style, so preferably the former. [[User:SmittenGalaxy|<span style="font-weight:bold; color:#663399; text-shadow:3px 3px 5px #dda0dd">SmittenGalaxy</span>]] <span style="font-weight:bold">&#124;</span> [[User_talk:SmittenGalaxy|<span style="font-style:italic; color:#000080">talk!</span>]] 04:41, 3 July 2024 (UTC)
*'''Support'''. Where infoboxes have been contentious in the past have seemed to really be about disputes of particular fields, in this case the nationality ([[WP:INFONAT|not reccommended anyway]]) and style. We can just omit them if there's no easy option. Infoboxes provide useful structured information at-a-glance that is structured compared to prose. [[User:SWinxy|SWinxy]] ([[User talk:SWinxy|talk]]) 21:44, 5 July 2024 (UTC)
*'''Support'''. The proposed box [https://en.wikipedia.org/w/index.php?title=Francis_Bacon_(artist)&diff=prev&oldid=1235610377] is inoffensively short, with no claims as to genre or major works. Nationality may be an issue, but the box says the same thing as the lead. Like that Dublin is mentioned; this might quell nationality grumbles. Can live with this. [[User:Ceoil|Ceoil]] ([[User talk:Ceoil|talk]]) 05:52, 20 July 2024 (UTC)
{{Archive bottom}}


=== Post-RfC ===
If there is other fair use media, consider checking that you have specified the fair use rationale on the other images used on this page. Note that any fair use images lacking such an explanation can be deleted one week after being tagged, as described on [[Wikipedia:Criteria for speedy deletion#Images.2FMedia|criteria for speedy deletion]]. If you have any questions please ask them at the [[Wikipedia:Media copyright questions|Media copyright questions page]]. Thank you.<!-- Template:Missing rationale2 -->
I missed this, being away for the 3 days when most comments came. I would have objected, but if [[User:Ceoil|Ceoil]] is ok with it.... But I forecast endless maintenance & disputes over the content, & we know that [[User:Ithinkiplaygames|Ithinkiplaygames]], [[User:SmittenGalaxy]], [[User:SWinxy]], and [[User:Fieari]] won't hang around to help out. [[User:Johnbod|Johnbod]] ([[User talk:Johnbod|talk]]) 02:00, 28 July 2024 (UTC)
:Any changes to the infobox should be proposed here then, on the talk page, if you predict all changes to be contentious. Could his education at [[Dean Close School]] be added? What about his signature? [[User:SWinxy|SWinxy]] ([[User talk:SWinxy|talk]]) 15:12, 28 July 2024 (UTC)
::Isn't it misleading to include Dean Close in the infobox? He was there for only two years (1924–1926). He was self-educated. [[User:Khiikiat|Khiikiat]] ([[User talk:Khiikiat|talk]]) 22:53, 28 July 2024 (UTC)
:::Ah, perhaps it is. [[User:SWinxy|SWinxy]] ([[User talk:SWinxy|talk]]) 01:28, 29 July 2024 (UTC)
::I don't believe we have his signature, & he didn't usually sign his paintings. [[User:Johnbod|Johnbod]] ([[User talk:Johnbod|talk]]) 01:41, 29 July 2024 (UTC)
*Johnbod, I have the same worries, but it does seem like [[User:Khiikiat|Khiikiat]] gets what was agreed...a short as possible box, that mentions Dublin but not nationality, doesn't have major works (dicey given the long career/lost-destroyed works), or decorative stuff like a sig. For the record, my mind was changed post the [[James Joyce]] debate, where even through the shouting and noise by the usual suspects and their socks, a number of people I respect made good arguments for an abbreviated box and I hold them to their word. While we are on emotive stuff, I strongly disagree with the current dab, ie (artist), he was a painter only. The drawings were dabbles/sketches only, never intended to be seen, and IMO weak. He was no furniture maker of note. At the same time, life is short and I really don't give af either. [[User:Ceoil|Ceoil]] ([[User talk:Ceoil|talk]]) 15:55, 4 August 2024 (UTC)


== Invalid non-free use rationale? ==
[[User:BetacommandBot|BetacommandBot]] ([[User talk:BetacommandBot|talk]]) 18:35, 2 January 2008 (UTC)


[[:File:Francis-Bacon-with-glass (cropped).jpg]] is in Commons as a public domain photograph. There is no particular reason use [[:File:Francis Bacon by John Dekin.jpg]] in this article. --[[User:Geohakkeri|Geohakkeri]] ([[User talk:Geohakkeri|talk]]) 15:06, 6 July 2024 (UTC)
==External links section==
:Thanks, have switched, love the pic; he looks suitably inebriated :) [[User:Ceoil|Ceoil]] ([[User talk:Ceoil|talk]]) 05:56, 20 July 2024 (UTC)
It's too long. Probably some of the links to images are to sites where the image is a copyvio. Some of the links are actually wikilinks and should be in a "See also" section, if not linked in the main text. '''''[[User:Tyrenius|<font color="#880088">Ty</font>]]''''' 02:26, 21 May 2008 (UTC)

Latest revision as of 05:07, 20 October 2024

Cleanup

[edit]

3rd-4th graphs could use some edits. "Bon vivant" and "bleak" repeat. One can be existential AND be charismatic, well-read, and articulate. Worldlelvr (talk) 06:26, 26 April 2024 (UTC)[reply]

RfC: Infobox reassessment

[edit]
Sometimes discussions about infoboxes can be contentious, this is not one of those cases. There is a clear consensus in support of adding an infobox to the article. If further discussion is necessary as to what information to include in the infobox, that can be achieved through opening a new section.(non-admin closure) Isaidnoway (talk) 19:52, 27 July 2024 (UTC)[reply]

The following discussion is closed. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the appropriate discussion page. No further edits should be made to this discussion.

I have to admit that I am a bit puzzled reading through the previous RfC regarding the use of an infobox on this page—I was not aware that infoboxes were considered controversial.

However, given 3 years have passed since that consensus was formed, I would like to see if there was still a consensus against the inclusion of an infobox among the editors of this article. Ithinkiplaygames (talk) 19:50, 1 July 2024 (UTC)[reply]

  • Support, as proposer. I believe an infobox would serve this article better than the lack thereof:
  1. Infoboxes are to an article's lead section as a lead section is to an article—an even more summarized, at-a-glance list of key facts about a person. This article's lead section is long, and thus an infobox would provide an outsized benefit to the reader compared to articles with shorter leads.
  2. The |nationality= field has been deprecated per MOS:INFOBOXNTLY, and thus, any potential controversy about Bacon's nationality should not be a factor in the addition of an infobox.
  3. The debate over Bacon's particular style and movement, too, seem to have settled down—the lead currently describes him solely as a "figurative painter". If additional nuance is desired in the infobox, it can be added via a footnote.
Ithinkiplaygames (talk) 19:55, 1 July 2024 (UTC)[reply]
  • Support adding an infobox to the article. I'm looking over other articles for artists throughout history, and it seems quite unusual to not have an infobox. Many of the arguments in the previous RfC, in my opinion, don't feel like great arguments in opposition of an infobox as they were two and a half years ago; and they're much less applicable now.
Namely:
  • An infobox shrinks the image too much does not feel like a strong argument against the infobox as a whole; a different picture can simply be chosen, or the image reformatted.
  • Duplication of information many infoboxes duplicate information in an article lede, such as birth date and name; this is intentional, and I've not seen any issue taken with infoboxes in general.
  • but Bacon is singularly unsuited to categorisation is the argument that opposed the addition of the infobox that has confused me the most. I don't see why Bacon specifically is uniquely unsuitable to be categorized; no sources to my knowledge bring this up, and as per nom there is consensus on his style, so this is a non-issue. Though I am also confused as to why this is an argument against the infobox as a whole. SmittenGalaxy | talk! 01:20, 2 July 2024 (UTC)[reply]
  • Support - I've always found the anti-infobox position strange. It's useful information at a glace. Opposition to it is often very elitist feeling... "we have the information in prose, they should just read the article!" Let's have some respect for people's time and give them some quick reference facts in an organized manner at a glance. Fieari (talk) 07:31, 2 July 2024 (UTC)[reply]
  • Comment - What will be the content of the infobox? Senorangel (talk) 04:33, 3 July 2024 (UTC)[reply]
    Probably {{Infobox artist}}, if I had to assume. It's the same one used in the reverted diff from the previous RfC, as well as what is used on most artists' pages. I suppose {{Infobox person}} could also be used, but that includes no specific parameters for things such as notable works or art style, so preferably the former. SmittenGalaxy | talk! 04:41, 3 July 2024 (UTC)[reply]
  • Support. Where infoboxes have been contentious in the past have seemed to really be about disputes of particular fields, in this case the nationality (not reccommended anyway) and style. We can just omit them if there's no easy option. Infoboxes provide useful structured information at-a-glance that is structured compared to prose. SWinxy (talk) 21:44, 5 July 2024 (UTC)[reply]
  • Support. The proposed box [1] is inoffensively short, with no claims as to genre or major works. Nationality may be an issue, but the box says the same thing as the lead. Like that Dublin is mentioned; this might quell nationality grumbles. Can live with this. Ceoil (talk) 05:52, 20 July 2024 (UTC)[reply]
The discussion above is closed. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the appropriate discussion page. No further edits should be made to this discussion.

Post-RfC

[edit]

I missed this, being away for the 3 days when most comments came. I would have objected, but if Ceoil is ok with it.... But I forecast endless maintenance & disputes over the content, & we know that Ithinkiplaygames, User:SmittenGalaxy, User:SWinxy, and User:Fieari won't hang around to help out. Johnbod (talk) 02:00, 28 July 2024 (UTC)[reply]

Any changes to the infobox should be proposed here then, on the talk page, if you predict all changes to be contentious. Could his education at Dean Close School be added? What about his signature? SWinxy (talk) 15:12, 28 July 2024 (UTC)[reply]
Isn't it misleading to include Dean Close in the infobox? He was there for only two years (1924–1926). He was self-educated. Khiikiat (talk) 22:53, 28 July 2024 (UTC)[reply]
Ah, perhaps it is. SWinxy (talk) 01:28, 29 July 2024 (UTC)[reply]
I don't believe we have his signature, & he didn't usually sign his paintings. Johnbod (talk) 01:41, 29 July 2024 (UTC)[reply]
  • Johnbod, I have the same worries, but it does seem like Khiikiat gets what was agreed...a short as possible box, that mentions Dublin but not nationality, doesn't have major works (dicey given the long career/lost-destroyed works), or decorative stuff like a sig. For the record, my mind was changed post the James Joyce debate, where even through the shouting and noise by the usual suspects and their socks, a number of people I respect made good arguments for an abbreviated box and I hold them to their word. While we are on emotive stuff, I strongly disagree with the current dab, ie (artist), he was a painter only. The drawings were dabbles/sketches only, never intended to be seen, and IMO weak. He was no furniture maker of note. At the same time, life is short and I really don't give af either. Ceoil (talk) 15:55, 4 August 2024 (UTC)[reply]

Invalid non-free use rationale?

[edit]

File:Francis-Bacon-with-glass (cropped).jpg is in Commons as a public domain photograph. There is no particular reason use File:Francis Bacon by John Dekin.jpg in this article. --Geohakkeri (talk) 15:06, 6 July 2024 (UTC)[reply]

Thanks, have switched, love the pic; he looks suitably inebriated :) Ceoil (talk) 05:56, 20 July 2024 (UTC)[reply]
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