Talk:Turkey: Difference between revisions

The following is a closed discussion of a requested move. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made in a new section on the talk page. Editors desiring to contest the closing decision should consider a move review after discussing it on the closer's talk page. No further edits should be made to this discussion.

The result of the move request was: Not moved per WP:SNOW (non-admin closure) (t · c) buidhe 19:35, 20 January 2022 (UTC)[reply]

Turkey → Türkiye – The country has changed its English name to Türkiye. 2600:6C5A:657F:D1F5:48D3:2853:9745:8762 (talk) 03:20, 20 January 2022 (UTC)[reply]

Won't happen as everyone will keep referring to them as Turkey! Vif12vf/Tiberius (talk) 03:27, 20 January 2022 (UTC)[reply]

• Oppose for now, per WP:COMMONNAME. Even in the period after Erdogan's December memo, 'Turkey' predominates in English-language sources. News in the past 48 hours has described the name change as an ongoing process, with unclear timelines. It's far too soon to make a call on this, and I propose a short moratorium on requested moves until other governments, inter-governmental agencies, and news media can react to moves by the country. Firefangledfeathers 03:36, 20 January 2022 (UTC)[reply]
• Oppose. Obviously way too soon for such a major change. Wikipedia does not lead, it follows. But if this ever does catch on and the article gets moved, then Turkey (bird) should be moved to Turkey. Rreagan007 (talk) 04:35, 20 January 2022 (UTC)[reply]
  • Since the bird is named for the country, we'll have to change its name to "Türkiye" also to be consistent. :) BilCat (talk) 16:25, 20 January 2022 (UTC)[reply]
• Oppose per WP:COMMONNAME. As stated above, the most common in the English-language name for the nation is Turkey. Perhaps if media and other sources follow suit with using Türkiye, there would be a stronger argument for the change. ExRat (talk) 05:32, 20 January 2022 (UTC)[reply]
• Oppose per WP:COMMONNAME. Alex2006 (talk) 06:26, 20 January 2022 (UTC)[reply]
• Oppose per WP:USEENGLISH and WP:COMMONNAME. Turkiye or its equivalent only used by Turkey major English sources. 125.167.57.203 (talk) 07:45, 20 January 2022 (UTC)[reply]
• Oppose per WP:COMMONNAME, until the preponderance of reliable English language sources routinely use the spelling "Türkiye". Cullen328 (talk) 07:58, 20 January 2022 (UTC)[reply]
• Oppose No sign WP:COMMONNAME has changed, as stated above. This needs more than a memo from Erdogan to change it - WP:RS English-language usage has to change before we change. DeCausa (talk) 08:02, 20 January 2022 (UTC)[reply]
• Oppose Per Firefangledfeathers. Slightly off-topic, this website [1] use the new spelling, but this [2] doesn't yet. Apparently, the word "Turkish" is still ok per government.[3] Gråbergs Gråa Sång (talk) 08:14, 20 January 2022 (UTC)[reply]
• Oppose per WP:COMMONNAME. The name change is not even adopted yet by the largest two Turkish media in English language, Hurriyet Daily News and Daily Sabah, who continue to use "Turkey" as of now. Due mention of the name change can be slowly phased in if usage in local and global English-language media actually increases. Once the name change will be established and dominate in a wide range of sources (which is entirely WP:CRYSTALBALL), we can address the page title again. –Austronesier (talk) 12:41, 20 January 2022 (UTC)[reply]
• Oppose the English name is Turkey, not "Türkiye". Super Ψ Dro 13:41, 20 January 2022 (UTC)[reply]
• Oppose per Turkish Constiution. Shadow4dark (talk) 13:46, 20 January 2022 (UTC)[reply]
• Oppose - obviously not the common name. The limit should probably be the lede sentence and a mention in the prose. Best Wishes, Lee Vilenski ^{(talk • contribs)} 16:04, 20 January 2022 (UTC)[reply]
• Comment. This should be a snow close at this point, as it's obvious this RM will fail. Rreagan007 (talk) 17:13, 20 January 2022 (UTC)[reply]
• Support and make this title a DAB, no clear primary topic for "Turkey". Crouch, Swale (talk) 17:34, 20 January 2022 (UTC)[reply]
  • @Crouch, Swale: could you provide a rationale for your !vote? Firefangledfeathers 19:27, 20 January 2022 (UTC)[reply]
    • @Firefangledfeathers: A combination of WP:NATURAL, alternative names may be used to settle titles by using alternative names as well as WP:NOPRIMARY for "Turkey". Crouch, Swale (talk) 19:29, 20 January 2022 (UTC)[reply]
• Oppose per WP:COMMONNAME. I would note that we have no reason to assume that Türkiye will ever be used a an English word by native English speakers. If we accept Crouch, Swale's argument above, the correct response would be the one they proposed at the August RM. Kahastok talk 18:09, 20 January 2022 (UTC)[reply]

  My point was partly the fact that the country is probably going to sometimes be called "Turkey" and sometimes "Türkiye" so this reduces the chances of the country being primary for "Turkey". Crouch, Swale (talk) 18:21, 20 January 2022 (UTC)[reply]

• Support per noWP:NAMECHANGES.--Ortizesp (talk) 19:17, 20 January 2022 (UTC)[reply]
  • WP:NAMECHANGES would support retaining 'Turkey', as independent, reliable sources since the name change are continuing to use 'Turkey'. See, for example, the first five new pieces I found searching for 'Erdogan': Bloomberg, Wall Street Journal, Times of Israel, The Defense Post, and Reuters]. All but Reuters use 'Turkey' exclusively, and Reuters uses neither version. Firefangledfeathers 19:27, 20 January 2022 (UTC)[reply]

The following is a closed discussion of a requested move. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made in a new section on the talk page. Editors desiring to contest the closing decision should consider a move review after discussing it on the closer's talk page. No further edits should be made to this discussion.

The result of the move request was: There's consensus for Option 1. Among the cited arguments is that the country's name has not been officially changed at the UN. (non-admin closure) (t · c) buidhe 17:04, 23 May 2022 (UTC)[reply]

Which of the following two should be the article's lede sentence?

1. Turkey (Template:Lang-tr [ˈtyɾcije]), officially the Republic of Turkey (Template:Lang-tr [ˈtyɾcije dʒumˈhuːɾijeti] ^ⓘ)
2. Turkey (Template:Lang-tr [ˈtyɾcije]), officially the Republic of Türkiye (Template:Lang-tr [ˈtyɾcije dʒumˈhuːɾijeti] ^ⓘ)

Chess (talk) (please use {{reply to|Chess}} on reply) 19:38, 9 April 2022 (UTC)[reply]

• Option 2. The most official name in English is "Türkiye", not "Turkey". WP:COMMONNAME doesn't apply here because we're discussing what we should describe the official name as, not what we should title or describe the country as in the text. Chess (talk) (please use {{reply to|Chess}} on reply) 19:38, 9 April 2022 (UTC)[reply]
• Option 1 We do not base wikipedia articles off the statements of Turkish state media. The UN still lists Turkey's name as "Turkey" and it is still WP:COMMONNAME so I suggest Option 1 unless there is some sort of official law mandating the change.
  • We do when we're discussing what name is "official". Chess (talk) (please use {{reply to|Chess}} on reply) 18:53, 11 April 2022 (UTC)[reply]

  There is still no official act of the Grand National Assembly mandating this name change. Erdoğan can flaunt his nationalist agenda all he wants, but I am only willing to change my answer if there is a specific law for changing the name. CollectiveSolidarity (talk) 19:37, 12 April 2022 (UTC)[reply]

• Option 2 The Turkish government is using the name "Republic of Türkiye" and the article should be in line with other articles such as the Ivory Coast with "Republic of Côte d'Ivoire" even if is not the common English name of the country.--Kappasi (talk) 17:47, 10 April 2022 (UTC)[reply]
• Option 2 for neutrality, so that both spellings of the name (Turkey, Türkiye) are represented. Khestwol (talk) 17:51, 10 April 2022 (UTC)[reply]
• Option 1 It’s misleading to say this is a new “official” name. What has happened is much more limited than that. This is Erdogan’s circular of 3 December and this is Hürriyet Daily News’s coverage of it. What the circular actually says is that “Made in Türkiye” should be stamped on exports - that’s the focus of the circular. As far as other usage is concerned, it says “necessary sensitivity will be shown on the use of the phrase ‘Türkiye’ instead of phrases such as ‘Turkey,’ ‘Turkei,’ ‘Turquie’ etc.”. Erdogan doesn’t under the constitution have the power to determine an “official name” for the country and the circular doesn’t claim that this is the official name in English. Some of the Turkish media have got very excited about this and there’s plenty of exaggerated references to an “official name” but I don’t believe any such media coverage is WP:RS for the legal position, which is this is about, per WP:RSCONTEXT. DeCausa (talk) 18:12, 10 April 2022 (UTC)[reply]

  Türkiye is used by most government departments now on their official English language websites, not just for products made in Turkey.Kappasi (talk) Kappasi (talk) 20:44, 10 April 2022 (UTC)[reply]

  that doesn’t make it the “official name” and there are departments that don’t use it. DeCausa (talk) 20:51, 10 April 2022 (UTC)[reply]

• Option 1 The official name of the country has not changed. It is still Türkiye Cumhuriyeti. We translate it by its components the way these are translated in common usage: Türkiye → "Turkey" Cumhuriyet → "Republic". The current government has chosen to promote "Turkiye" as translation for Türkiye, and hence "Republic of Türkiye" for Türkiye Cumhuriyeti, but that does not affect the rendering of the official name in WP based on common usage. –Austronesier (talk) 18:30, 10 April 2022 (UTC)[reply]
• Option 1. As far as I can tell, Erdogan did not declare "Republic of Türkiye" to be the country's official name. His memo expressed his wish that "Türkiye" be used as the brand of the nation in official publications and communications, mentioning "Made in Türkiye" in particular. No mention of what the official name in English should be. Many sources covering this in the following months have made it clear that this is an ongoing process, including by getting the UN to change the way it refers to the country. No source presented so far has said that this has actually happened. The UN is still using "Republic of Turkey".
  Major Turkish governmental institutions, including its national legislature and highest court, are still prominently using "Turkey", with the Constitutional Court using the full "Republic of Turkey". English language news media is continuing to use "Republic of Turkey" over "of "Türkiye" by about 5:1, according to Google News hits over the past month. Even Turkey's executive branch does not seem to have settled on its final choice. As of February, Erdogan was considering dropping the diacritic mark from the u.
  Nothing official has happened when it comes to "Republic of Türkiye" yet. We'll know when it's official because the whole Turkish government, other nations, intergovernmental organizations, and news media will shift. That has not happened. Firefangledfeathers (talk / contribs) 04:01, 11 April 2022 (UTC)[reply]
• Option 1 for now. As I read from some sources (here, here and here, for instance), Turkey is registering the new name at the UN. I would switch to Option 2 when this registration will become official. P1221 (talk) 07:24, 11 April 2022 (UTC)[reply]

Why would “registering” the name at the UN make a difference? The UN doesn’t have a function as an “official name” registry. Might as well check the registration at the International Poultry Council. DeCausa (talk) 12:49, 11 April 2022 (UTC)[reply]

The UN does have this function actually, assigned to UNGEGN. Even without this, a submission to any international body, in general, would be a useful sign that the name change was serious. In line with that, I note that the International Poultry Council still refers to the country as "Turkey". CMD (talk) 13:20, 11 April 2022 (UTC)[reply]

They may well be the last hold out for the old name…UNGEGN is an “experts forum” for cartographic consistency, as I understand it. I don’t think a country can “register” their preferences with them. Basically, what Turkey has done has put in their request for what goes on the name plaque that they sit behind. DeCausa (talk) 13:31, 11 April 2022 (UTC)[reply]

Some of NATO and Organisation of Turkic States seems to use this. Beshogur (talk) 13:10, 14 April 2022 (UTC)[reply]

• Option 1. Despite "Republic of Türkiye" is currently being used by the top official bodies, it has not been declared as the official name of the country. It is more of a governmental preference than an official name. Nozdref (talk) 11:15, 11 April 2022 (UTC)[reply]

  It's more official than "Republic of Turkey". Chess (talk) (please use {{reply to|Chess}} on reply) 19:28, 15 April 2022 (UTC)[reply]

• Option 1 If Option 1 wins and Option 2 subsequently becomes registered with the UN and put into use, we can re-open this RfC. SportingFlyer T·C 15:56, 12 April 2022 (UTC)[reply]
• Option 2. why not mention the name they have chosen to use ? Article title and first mention still common name with native name mentioned.Moxy- 16:11, 12 April 2022 (UTC)[reply]

Türkiye is already mentioned, and is the third word of the first sentence, in the article currently, and in both options. The issue isn’t about mentioning it, it’s whether, in addition to that, it should also be stated the “official name” is “Republic of Türkiye”. DeCausa (talk) 18:30, 12 April 2022 (UTC)[reply]

Yes "Türkiye Cumhuriyeti" Moxy- 20:45, 12 April 2022 (UTC)[reply]

• Support Turkey ..., officially the Republic of Turkey or Türkiye ... not sure for infobox. Maybe Republic of Turkey / Türkiye. Beshogur (talk) 13:09, 14 April 2022 (UTC)[reply]
• Option 1 Per other users, this dictat was not a constitutional change nor a law, and seems to only apply to official organizations. Not only that, it doesn't seem to catch on outside of Turkish governmental media outlets, which seem to be obliged to follow this decree. — Preceding unsigned comment added by Ido66667 (talk • contribs) 20:53, 14 April 2022 (UTC)[reply]
• Option 2 The Official name is Republic of Türkiye so we should use it.Yousef Raz (talk) 22:59, 14 April 2022 (UTC)[reply]
• Option 1 Until such time as it is clear that international bodies - such as the UN - have adopted this form. Pincrete (talk) 15:05, 15 April 2022 (UTC)[reply]

  Has been done...just waiting on UN [4] Moxy- 21:21, 18 April 2022 (UTC)[reply]

Actually, that source doesn’t say it has been done. In fact, all the sources to date seem to say that Turkey is planning to do it with no confirmation that it has been done yet, eg this which said back in January that it was going to be done “in the coming weeks”. DeCausa (talk) 22:01, 18 April 2022 (UTC)[reply]

yup done all over just not at the UN yet.....Why are we waiting on the UN...is it the only source we can use? What is wrong with the constitution? Seem odd for us to wait on one single source when we have many that are much more relevent. Moxy- 22:09, 18 April 2022 (UTC)[reply]

It’s not in the constitution and no one’s using it much. DeCausa (talk) 22:18, 18 April 2022 (UTC)[reply]

I didn't knew that Turkey's Turkish constitution talked about English name of its name. I don't think so. Also Organization of Turkic States and some NATO bodies started to use the name "Türkiye". Beshogur (talk) 14:59, 19 April 2022 (UTC)[reply]

Exactly. DeCausa (talk) 15:15, 19 April 2022 (UTC)[reply]

• Option 1 (as) Per other users mentioned the needed explanation. Ali Ahwazi (talk) 20:54, 18 April 2022 (UTC)[reply]
• Option 1 is more common in English. --Seggallion (talk) 15:41, 22 April 2022 (UTC)[reply]
• Option 1 for consistency. Turkey (Turkish: Türkiye), officially the Republic of Turkey (Turkish: Türkiye Cumhuriyeti) Some1 (talk) 01:44, 23 April 2022 (UTC)[reply]
• Option 1 per P1221. BilledMammal (talk) 03:21, 29 April 2022 (UTC)[reply]
• Option 1 makes the most sense for the English wiki. — Ixtal ^{( T / C )} ⁂ Join WP:FINANCE! 00:35, 3 May 2022 (UTC)[reply]

I think there’s an Option 3 to reflect that Erdoğan has launched a campaign to have Türkiye adopted in foreign language use even if it isn’t actually an “official name” change. I suggest adding a footnote to the words “…officially the Republic of Turkey…” in the first sentence which says:

Footnote

Beginning with a presidential circular issued in December 2021, President Recep Tayyip Erdoğan launched a campaign, latterly called Say Türkiye, to have the Turkish word for the country, Türkiye, used in all languages instead of foreign language equivalents.^[1] As a result, the Turkish Foreign Ministry and some other state agencies have begun using the phrase Republic of Türkiye on the English language versions of their respective websites.^[2]

This, I think, more accurately reflects that this is about a campaign to encourage a change of usage rather than an “official” name change, which overstates what’s happening. DeCausa (talk) 12:44, 15 April 2022 (UTC)[reply]

That's unnecessary and UNDUE, IMHO. Turkey#Name is a more fitting place for that, not a footnote in the lead. Some1 (talk) 01:53, 23 April 2022 (UTC)[reply]