Wikipedia:Articles for deletion/Widow * Second Wife: Real Sucking Engulfing a Rare Utensil: Difference between revisions

Widow * Second Wife: Real Sucking Engulfing a Rare Utensil (edit | talk | history | protect | delete | links | watch | logs | views) – (View log • AfD statistics)

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The claim to notability for this film is that it "won" eight place in the japanese porn awards show "Pink Grand Prix." That's called coming in eighth, not "winning." There does not appear to be any substantial coverage inependent of the subject (since the pink grand prix is an appendix of the porn-marketting machine in japan). The article is largely a vehicle to have pretty girls titties displayed. Fails GNG, FILM, etc Bali ultimate (talk) 14:00, 31 July 2010 (UTC)[reply]

• Delete - Porn is swell. Topless chicks are swell. Wikipedia articles about obscure porn movies which purportedly have won dubious awards are not swell. Not worthy of inclusion. If this sounds like Yogi's deja vu all over again, that's because it is. Somebody is spamming articles on cheesy Japanese porn movies. Advertising. Carrite (talk) 14:38, 31 July 2010 (UTC)
• Note: This debate has been added to the WikiProject Pornography list of deletions. • Gene93k (talk) 15:47, 31 July 2010 (UTC)[reply]
• Note: This debate has been included in the list of Japan-related deletion discussions. -- • Gene93k (talk) 15:47, 31 July 2010 (UTC)[reply]
• Note: This debate has been included in the list of Film-related deletion discussions. -- • Gene93k (talk) 15:48, 31 July 2010 (UTC)[reply]

• Delete: Dubious notability claims. English title appears to have been made up by the author to boot. --DAJF (talk) 16:12, 31 July 2010 (UTC)[reply]
• Comment I'm concerned that this article cites mainly the web site P*G Website -- it is not obvious to me that this is a reliable source adequate to verify content or establish notability. Kenilworth Terrace (talk) 21:25, 31 July 2010 (UTC)[reply]
• Delete, fails WP:NOTFILM, and has no coverage shown in reliable independent sources. The Pink Grand Prix is a readers' poll conducted by "PG" (perhaps "P*G") magazine, a publication of no established notability. According to this news article [1], cited as a reliable source in the article on the award itself, "PG" is a "fanzine," or fan magazine. Reader polls, whether for print or online publications, generally aren't seen as establishing notability unless the publication is clearly notable (if then), and when they are, only the first place finisher is generally seen as having its own notability established by the poll. The film's article is sourced only to a comprehensive listing of produced films, which establishes only existence but not notability, and to the fanzine's own website, which lacks the independence required to establish notability. Hullaballoo Wolfowitz (talk) 22:05, 31 July 2010 (UTC)[reply]
• Keep, Let's tone down the invective and allegations a bit and look at the facts instead. The film in question is an example of Japanese softcore pink film. This type of film has played an important part in Japanese film history and has been a factor in Japanese culture and politics. The reference [2] that Hullabaloo Wolfowitz cites above is an article by pink film authority Jasper Sharp and gives a good overview of the role that pink film has played in Japanese culture and its growing popularity internationally. Read the article to get a better understanding of where this particular Wikipedia article and others of its kind come from. Sharp has also written a serious study of pink film Behind the Pink Curtain, 2008, (ISBN 978 1 903254 54 7) and although in the article mentioned above, Sharp does in passing call PG a "fanzine", he is more explicit in his book describing it as a (page 379): "Specialist Japanese magazine on pink films, edited by Yoshiyuki Hayashida, established in July 1994." And about the magazine's PG website, which has been brought into question, he has this to say (page 380): "The website of the best magazine on the subject. An invaluable, comprehensive and up-to-date resource on pink movies edited by Yoshiyuki Hayashida." Thus, we have a reliable and authoritative source vouching for both PG magazine and the PG website. As for the Pink Grand Prix, Miho Toda in a series of articles [3] [4] [5] for a reliable source, calls them the Pink Film "Academy Awards" (アカデミー賞). As far as the film not being a first prize winner, if the awarding authorities from "the best magazine on the subject" choose to give awards to more than one candidate, we cannot, as Wikipedia editors, arbitrarily impose rules that only certain awards are "good enough". That would involve cultural bias, POV and OR to make such decisions. In summary, this is a film which has won a significant award given by a prominent magazine and is described in a reliable source. I know of no connection between PG magazine and the [sic] "porn-marketting machine in japan"; if there is one, a source would be welcomed. Incidentally, pink film has always been produced and distributed by the major film studios in Japan. As for "English title appears to have been made up by the author", Japnese film titles are often difficult to translate into decent English. If you know of another English title or can give a better translation, please do so. It would be appreciated. Cherryblossom1982 (talk) 19:02, 1 August 2010 (UTC)[reply]
• Strong Keep We don't delete articles on notable, significant films based on cultural and moral bias. Comments about "titties" and "porn" show the ignorance and bias going into some of the votes here. The Pink film is a hugely significant part of Japanese cinema, and has been for nearly 50 years. It is, basically, all Japanese independent cinema. To equate it with US/western "porn" is culturally biased and ignorant, and nominating this article based on that bias is tantamount to attempting to censor coverage of Japanese independent cinema. Read the Pink film article for details. Many significant figures in Japanese cinema have worked in this genre. Just one example: Yōjirō Takita, the winner of last year's U.S. Academy Award for Best Foreign Language film started in this genre, made a hugely significant contribution to the genre, and this work is a significant portion of his work. The Pink Grand Prix is currently the main award in the genre. Anglo pink film scholar Jasper Sharp, and mainstream Japanese sources have noted this in several writings cited in the article. All films awarded at this ceremony are notable simply due to this one award. To claim they are not is to make a laughing-stock Wikipedia's claims of neutrality and encyclopedic coverage. Also, this film was produced by Yutaka Ikejima, written by Kazuhiro Sano, and distributed by OP Eiga. Read the articles on that director and the studio for some background. Are we to censor this because of the belligerent ignorance of a few Anglo prudes? I strongly suggest that anyone who purports to be interested in creating an encyclopedia which includes Japanese cinema as a subject area, review their !votes. Because I can tell you, your Delete vote is WRONG here. Pink films just like this one, are covered more and more by mainstream English-language texts on Japanese cinema. This is nothing less than an effort to censor an entire genre of Japanese cinema based on the cultural and moral bias of a few Wikipedia editors. Dekkappai (talk) 03:31, 2 August 2010 (UTC)[reply]
• Strong Keep per comprehensive rationales of Cherryblossom1982 and Dekkappai.--Chris (クリス • フィッチ) (talk) 04:34, 2 August 2010 (UTC)[reply]
• A few notes on the general significance of pink film This mass-deletion of pink film articles might benefit from a few points on the genre. The biased cultural point of view driving these nominations: "Porn! Delete!" is completely inaccurate. The nearest equivalent in the US would be the grindhouse/drive-in cinema of the '60s and '70s. The difference is that the Japanese ones are often made by notable, accomplished filmmakers and performers. These films are in no way comparable to what Westerners currently think of as porn. Some of these films-- Jasper Sharp says 10%-- which is approximately the number represented at the Pink Grand Prix-- are well-made, significant, artistic films which employ eroticism as only one element. The films can be in any genre-- horror, comedy, thriller, even science fiction. The only requisites to belonging to the genre are budgetary, shooting schedule, and the existence of a minimal amount of nudity. A few notes:
  1. "SM Queen" Naomi Tani was nominated for a Japanese Academy Award for work in pink and Roman Porno.^[1][2]
  2. Actress Junko Miyashita was also nominated for Best Actress at the (mainstream) Japanese Academy Award for a performance in a Roman Porno. She won at other mainstream film awards.^[3]
  3. Noted (mainstream) Japanese film critic Tadao Sato calls pink film director Kōji Wakamatsu, one of "Japan's leading directors of the 1960s." ^[4]
  4. (US) Academy Award-winner, Yōjirō Takita, has such pink films in his filmography as: High Noon Ripper (1984), Molester's Train: Please Continue (1982), Molester's Train: Hunting In A Full Crowd (1982), Molester's Train: Rumiko's Tush (1983), Molester's Train: Keiko's Tush (1983), Molester's Train: Momoe's Tush (1983), Molester's Train: Underwear Inspection (1984), Molester's Train: Blast Off (1984), Molester's Train: Best Kept Secret Live Act (1984), Molester's Train: Seiko's Tush (1985), Molester's Train: One Shot Per Train (1985), Molester's Train: 1 Centimeter From The Wall (1985), Molester And The Female Teacher (1984), Molester's School Infirmary (1984), Molester's Tour Bus (1985), Molester's Delivery Service (1986), Pink Physical Examination (1985), Serial Rape'' (1983), etc., etc., etc. Is Wikipedia going to join the ranks of the vilest of human endeavors by censoring the work of this master of cinema because his early works unashamedly display "titties" and "porn"?
  5. From November 1971 until 1988, Nikkatsu studio, Japan's oldest major film studio, made almost nothing but "Roman porno" films. (Director Masaru Konuma says that there was essentially no difference between Roman Porno and pink films except for the studio's higher budget.)^[5]
  6. Kinema Jumpo, one of the major Japanese cinema journals, lists several Roman porno/pink films on its list of the 200 best Japanese films of the 20th century. Included on the list are such Roman pornos as : Crazy Fruit (狂った果実 - 1981), Love Hotel (ラブホテル - 1985), Rape! 13th Hour (レイプ25時　暴姦 - 1977), Angel Guts: Red Porno (天使のはらわた　赤い淫画 - 1981)[6]... For an Anglo-centric Wikipedia editor to dismiss films of the genre as "titties" and "porn" is a reflection on the educational background and the limited world-view of that editor, not of these films' place in world cinema. Wikipedia should realistically cover world cinema, not reflect the bias of individual editors. Dekkappai (talk) 06:18, 2 August 2010 (UTC)[reply]

• Keep Per reasoned comments above, and notability in Japan is notable enough for en.Wikipedia. Western (or personal) POV should never be used to negatively color discussion of Eastern film, Eastern art, Eastern culture, as cultural standards greatly vary. Perhaps someone from WP:CSB might wish to join in here. Schmidt, ^{MICHAEL Q.} 07:56, 2 August 2010 (UTC)[reply]

The "biased cultural viewpoint" driving these nominations is not that it's porn, but that it's non notable born, not covered in any depth anywhere. The articles only exist to have a naked breasts displayed -- there's simply nothing else there.Bali ultimate (talk) 08:12, 2 August 2010 (UTC)[reply]

BULLSHIT! You couldn't have made your bias plainer in your nomination if you tried. These films are NOTABLE because they have been AWARDED by the major award ceremony covering their field. If Wikipedia's "notability" criteria now excludes awards of notability by real authorities in the subject, then Wikipedia has lost its way. Dekkappai (talk) 08:33, 2 August 2010 (UTC)[reply]

1. Didn't "win" an award (eigth place). 2. The award itself is a fan poll. 3. Apparently, the Japanese wikipedia doesn't write about must of these non-notable films. Presumbably, just the ones that have received substantial coverage, allowing for the composition of an actual encyclopedia article. Basicallly all these many dozens of articles (hundreds?) you've put up have no depth (they can't -- again, there are no sources except for the "Pink Grand Prix" fanpoll).Bali ultimate (talk) 08:39, 2 August 2010 (UTC)[reply]

WP:UNKNOWNHERE is still no valid reason to delete. Othet cultures have differing views on what is notable to their culture and why. We really should avoid judging them by standards other than their own. Schmidt, ^{MICHAEL Q.} 09:02, 2 August 2010 (UTC)[reply]

No on is arguing that "it isn't known here, so delete" so i'm not sure why you're talking about that. The argument is that there are no sources -- in any language. The inclusion standards are the same, whether a film is japanese or czech -- either there is substantial coverage (either in japan or somewhere else) or there is not.Bali ultimate (talk) 09:09, 2 August 2010 (UTC)[reply]

1. Named 8th best release in a genre that typically sees over 100 annually. 2. The award is named by authorities and reliable Japanese sources as the "Academy Awards" of pink. Your personal opinion of it is irrelevant. 3. The Japanese Wiki has articles on comparable films, even without a pink film specialist editor, and has 2,800 on Adult Video performers. This film is listed in filmographies, and is likely to eventually get an article. Sourcing exists on these films, in Japanese, but the difficulty of locating Japanese sourcing is well known to anyone who has worked in the field. Basically, the articles I've put up are stubs on notable films, as proven by their recognition at a notable award. These articles are continuously added to as more sourcing is found. This is, and should continue to be, standard practice at Wikipedia. Dekkappai (talk) 09:14, 2 August 2010 (UTC)[reply]

• Delete Pink film is notable, many specific pink films are notable, I accept the award as apparently notable, and I appreciate that there are articles on them. I'd like to see more thorough coverage of pornography on Wikipedia. This specific film is not WP-notable, however. The film is lacking the sort of significant coverage from Reliable sources and consequent verifiability one would want for an encyclopedia article. Instead of prose following the topics in Wikipedia:Manual of Style (film) there are bare statements of fact as to having gotten the award, the cast, crew, and a brief plot outline, essentially WP:PLOTONLY apart from a short lede. If that's all that can be written, then that's a problem. Merely winning an award is not a guarantee a film is notable by WP's standards Wikipedia:Notability (films), only a general indicator it might be if there are RS for things other than the mere fact of winning the award. It's the existence of RS treating the film as the subject at length that is the measure of WP-notability. This film could be better treated in a list of films that won the award, if that. Шизомби (Sz) (talk) 18:12, 2 August 2010 (UTC)[reply]

  Reply Winning a notable award is proof of notability both in the real world and at Wikipedia. Notable subjects in foreign languages/cultures/different time periods are more difficult to source. That is the purpose of subject-specific "notability" definitions, not to create further "notability" hurdles. The assertion of notability, and the proof of its notability are in the article. "bare statements of fact" is encyclopedic style. I could embellish, and then I'd be accused of "fan" writing. Working in this genre for several years, I know that sourcing is out there on films with this much notability, and will be added to this article. This is a completely appropriate stub on a notable film. Deleting an article of this much notability while retaining hundreds of English-language films of much less notability is practically the definition of systemic bias. It is bad for Wikipedia. Dekkappai (talk) 19:22, 2 August 2010 (UTC)[reply]

• Comment Perhaps the most important false statement in the nomination, and in some Delete votes, is that this film does not pass WP:NOTFILM. It most certainly does pass per Wikipedia:Notability_(films)#General_principles, "The film has received a major award for excellence in some aspect of filmmaking." This is noted, "This criterion is secondary. Most films that satisfy this criterion already satisfy the first criterion." (First criterion: "The film is widely distributed and has received full length reviews by two or more nationally known critics.") This note, in my experience, is correct, as I have stated above. As indicated by this notable award, these films are covered by reviews and secondary sources, but because of the barriers of language, Japanese sourcing availability, and distance, these sources are found more slowly than are their English equivalents. Also, these films are distributed nationally through OP Eiga, 50 years history as perhaps the major pink film studio. This latter fact further passes [7]], "The film was successfully distributed domestically in a country that is not a major film producing country, and was produced by that country's equivalent of a "major film studio." Articles on such a film should assert that the film in question was notable for something more than merely having been produced, and if any document can be found to support this, in any language, it should be cited." OP is a major studio, and the award is proof beyond its "merely having been produced". There is no valid reason to delete this article. Dekkappai (talk) 20:12, 2 August 2010 (UTC)[reply]
• Further evidence of passing WP:NOTFILM Further, the film easily passes point 2 of Wikipedia:Notability_(films)#Other_evidence_of_notability mulitple times: ("The film features significant involvement (ie. one of the most important roles in the making of the film) by a notable person and is a major part of his/her career.") Kazuhiro Sano, the film's writer and an actor in the film, and Yutaka Ikejima, the film's producer, are two of the most notable filmmakers in the history of pink film. As a Pink Grand Prix winner, this film is significant in their careers, yet details about the film would be inappropriate in their biographies. Hence, deletion of this article would be absolutely wrong for Wikipedia. // and ANOTHER part of Wikipedia:Notability_(films)#General_principles (2) states: "The film is historically notable, as evidenced by one or more of the following:... "The film was given a commercial re-release, or screened in a festival, at least five years after initial release." The film was re-released theatrically three years after its initial release.[8], so it is just short of passing that one too... How many times does the article have to pass WP:NOTFILM before this AfD nomination and the other three inappropriate, POINT-nominations are thrown out? It's obvious Notability is not the issue here. Dekkappai (talk) 22:59, 2 August 2010 (UTC)[reply]

• The context from WP:NOTFILM: "The following are attributes that generally indicate, when supported with reliable sources, that the required sources are likely to exist: [...] The film has received a major award for excellence in some aspect of filmmaking." It is not "false" to say this film fails NOTFILM; it fails because it is one of those exceptions where a film won an award but RS do not exist. As I stated above, an award is an attribute that generally indicates that RS may exist for a film, an award is not a proof in and of itself of Notability. There must be RS for things other than the fact the film exists and won an award. NOTFILM doesn't mean one can speculate such sources exist or speculate that they will be created in the future if a film won an award, it's only thought to be likely that they may exist, and one must actually have the sources in hand ideally at the time of article creation, but if not then, now. They should not be a challenge to find if it is notable. Find them and I'd be quite happy to change my recommendation. Notability is an issue here and it is uncivil to accuse otherwise, just as the AfD was started on an uncivil note, something I criticized the nom for on his talk page. Шизомби (Sz) (talk) 23:03, 2 August 2010 (UTC)[reply]

• You are incorrectly interpreting WP:NOTFILM. Your claim that all films must ALSO pass GNG makes WP:NOTFILM entirely useless. WP:NOTFILM should just be a redirect to GNG according to your interpretation. Actually, the award, and the other ways that the film pass NOTFILM are proof that the film is notable. Reliable secondary sources with significant coverage of the film do exist but because of cultural, linguistic, and other matters we have not yet located those sources. The sources we DO have could not possibly be MORE reliable-- the leading journal covering the genre, and production information from the Ministry of Education. Subject-specific guidelines such as WP:NOTFILM help to prevent biased coverage by users who incorrectly assume that sourcing for all subjects is equally available-- not to create a redundant check. This is a notable film. More sources exist. A well-sourced stub with proof of the film's notability is sufficient until those further sources are found. Hundreds of articles on US films exist here with NO assertion of "notability" comparable to the four Japanese ones nominated, and LESS reliable sourcing than these. As far as "civility", I believe I have been remarkably restrained considering that these nominations were made in the most belligerent and biased manner, and that the very next !vote accused me of spamming, and later, recommended my banning from Wikipedia-- after I have, in stark contrast to the nominator and his henchman, started hundreds of articles-- no, not all in "titties" and "porn". Dekkappai (talk) 05:53, 3 August 2010 (UTC)[reply]

• In fact, since pissing on my article contributions at the ANI board to distract from constant edit-warring on the part of a fellow Deletionist is what led to these attacks on these articles in the first place, let's look at them: 451 + 135 + 49, for a total of 635 I have started in Silent film, Korean and Japanese cinema-- mainstream and erotic, and other areas. Contrast this to to a whopping 7 from the nominator, and a stupendous ONE (a page move to a disambiguation page) from the valued contributor who is allowed to edit-war whenever he wants. My knowledge of what constitutes a "notable" film has been created through experience in actual hard work at this project, not through contributing NOTHING, and telling others what to do. Dekkappai (talk) 06:41, 3 August 2010 (UTC)[reply]
• Delete Fails WP:GNG and WP:NOTFILM. Coming eighth place is not an award win, and the Pink Grand Prix is not a "major award". Epbr123 (talk) 08:18, 3 August 2010 (UTC)[reply]
• Keep What right do we have to declare a place 8 award in a notable Japanese award ceremony as unimportant? There are over 20 Oscar category awards and even getting nominated for just one estabilishes a certain notabililty. So how would we as non experts tell that a place 8 award in Japan lacks relevance? At least I have not seen any prove for this here. I am also impressed of the deep knowledge that Dekkappai and Cherryblossom1982 have in that field, so there is nothing to add to their comphrehensive explanations which even for an (open) western eye should make the inclusion of this article plausible. Both main editors are hardworking experts and would be loss for Wikipedia when stopping their contributions. Furthermore the nominator lacks obviously and without any doubt WP:NPOV in this area which even goes to name-calling of involved editors[9][10][11]. Testales (talk) 12:58, 3 August 2010 (UTC)[reply]