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Archive 1 - Archived on March 19, 2005 Archive 2 - Archived on March 25, 2006 Archive 3 - Archived on July 25, 2006 Archive 4 - Archived on October 5, 2006 Archive 5 - Archived on November 22, 2006 The article of 1911 Edition of Encyclopædia Britannica about Turkey: Archive 6 - Archived on November 28, 2006 Archive 7 - Archived on November 28, 2006 Archive 8 - Archived on November 28, 2006 Archive 9 - Archived on November 28, 2006 Archives continued Archive 10 - Archived on December 14, 2006 Archive 11 - Archived on January 13, 2007 Archive 12 - Archived on March 20, 2007 Archive 13 - Archived on December 2, 2007 Archive 14 - Archived on March 31, 2008 Archive 15 - March to August 2008

Turkey is an Asian country not European, so why does the map show Turkey as part of Europe? Signsolid (talk) 16:29, 14 May 2008 (UTC)[reply]

Turkey is institutionally a European state (the same case with Cyprus). It is a founding member of the Council of Europe (1949) and an officially recognized candidate country to join the European Union, having been an associate member since 1963, and having reached a customs union with the EU since 1995. Turkey is also an associate member of the Western European Union since 1992; which will likewise automatically turn to full membership with eventual EU accession. Hamam Tellak (talk) 16:46, 14 May 2008 (UTC)[reply]

Even though the modern state of Turkey since the First World War has tried to make itself as European as possible it is still geographically, racially, culturally, linguistically, religiously, and historically Asian. Signsolid (talk) 21:27, 14 May 2008 (UTC)[reply]

I agree to geographically, racially, culturally, linguistically and religiously related to Asia but I beg to disagree about "historically Asian". Actually Anatolia has been massively of Greek culture for 13 or 14 centuries before it became Turk, and even prior to the Helenism it had always been mostly Indo-European culturaly (Luvites, Hitites, Micenians, Phrygians, Lydians, etc.) and some Old Mediterranean (Cretans, Pelasgians and Carians). Greek was nearly the universal language in Anatolia prior to the arrival of the Turks. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 201.8.254.137 (talk) 13:11, 24 May 2008 (UTC)[reply]

Geographically, Turkey is a Eurasian country -- part of it is in Europe and part of it is in Asia, so saying that it is an Asian country is geographically incorrect (as is saying that it's a European country, for that matter). Culturally and historically, I'd say it's just as European as many Eastern European countries. Linguistically, whether it's European depends on how you feel about the Ural-Altaic languages. "Racially" (in scare quotes because the notion of race is scientifically discredited), Turks are an amalgam of Central Asians and Southeastern Europeans. As for religion, I don't know that Islam is necessarily an Asian religion (though it's less widespread in Europe than in Africa and Asia). So while it may be somewhat controversial to call Turkey a European country, it's hardly less controversial to call it an Asian country. Klausness (talk) 22:03, 14 May 2008 (UTC)[reply]

I agree Turkey is a mixture of both but I believe it is far more Asian than European for the reasons I stated before. As Turkey is a transcontinental country, which belongs to both Europe and Asia then maybe the map should reflect this rather than how at the moment the map clearly depicts Turkey as soley a European country. Signsolid (talk) 22:10, 14 May 2008 (UTC)[reply]

Why hasn't the map been changed yet to show Turkey is both European and Asian rather than soley European as it does at the moment? Signsolid (talk) 02:53, 16 May 2008 (UTC)[reply]

Anyone got any maps that show Turkey between Europe and Asia? Signsolid (talk) 02:59, 16 May 2008 (UTC)[reply]

This map any good? Signsolid (talk) 03:05, 16 May 2008 (UTC)[reply]

I don't like it. I think the map should show all of Europe, since that will allow many readers to locate Turkey more easily relative to known locations. What I might change about the existing map is to scroll it to the right (that is, leave out that big chunk of the Atlantic ocean in the west and add a chunk of Asia in the east instead), and maybe down a bit (to include a bit more of Africa). Also, I might remove the highlighting for Europe (that is, leave the country outlines, but don't make the European countries a darker gray than the others). Keep in mind that the point of the map is to allow readers to see where Turkey is located, not to argue for or against the inclusion of Turkey in Europe; so the purpose of including surrounding countries it to allow readers who may not know exactly where Turkey is to locate it relative to known locations. Klausness (talk) 10:57, 16 May 2008 (UTC)[reply]

Here's the previous map:

Scusate se insisto (talk) 18:05, 16 May 2008 (UTC)[reply]

I think the old map (Map of the Republic of Turkey.png) works better than the new suggestion (Europe Asia Location Turkey.png). Not sure whether I like the old one better than the current version (Location Turkey in Europe.png)... Klausness (talk) 21:26, 16 May 2008 (UTC)[reply]

I like the map at the top which has had the large amount of space in the west cropped off. It would probably look better too if Asia was coloured in like Europe is and the caption below read 'Location of Turkey (red) on the European continent (dark grey) and Asian continent (whatever colour is decided). Signsolid (talk) 02:17, 19 May 2008 (UTC)[reply]

Actually, all of you are misguided and mis-informed regarding Turkey's geographical location. The Earth is not flat, and thus the most geograhically correct maps is the one which shows countries according to their actual physical structure on the Earth. And to some proples dismay on this discussion, Turkey is more European according to the correct maps. Satellite images of Turkey by NASA also support this. Thus this map is the correct map. Thus, scientifically and geographically this map is the most accurate.

Tusas, There is no "scientifically accurate" two-dimensional map projection -- they're all inaccurate in one way or another. As for whether Turkey is geographically part of Europe, that's really a matter of convention. The Eurasian landmass has been arbitrarily divided into the continents of Europe and Asia, for mainly sociopolitical reasons. By convention, the Bosphorus and the Ural mountains divide Europe from Asia, which puts western Turkey in Europe and eastern Turkey in Asia. This doesn't imply that Tukey can or can't be in the European Union, the Eurovision Song Contest, or anything else with "Europe" in the name -- it's just the standard definition of the continents of Europe and Asia. The purpose of the map in the article should be to allow readers to locate Turkey with respect to other countries and to give an idea of the shape and relative size of the country. So I'd say some sort of equal-area projection (see the Map projection article), preferrably one that does not distort the shape of Turkey too much, would probably be most appropriate. And the map should include all of mainland Europe, a chunk of Asia, and the northern part of Africa. Klausness (talk) 12:51, 20 May 2008 (UTC)[reply]

Turkey's map in this article should be changed. At least until the issue of whether it joins the EU and becomes a european country. Until then it should be used a map where it is shown as a part of Middle East.

Don't forget that the past 2 capital cities of Ottoman Empire were in Europe.--Ilhanli (talk) 22:34, 31 May 2008 (UTC)[reply]

EU is not a "must" for a country to be accepted as "European". Think about it, France suddenly falls into a revolution and becomes socialist (woahhh sounds good but impossible) and leaves EU... What would we call France then? Not European because it is not a member of EU?! Terminology is more complex than many ordinary people think it is. Deliogul (talk) 23:01, 24 August 2008 (UTC)[reply]

And, since when is Turkey a european country?

Remeber sick man of Europe? From 16th century on, Ottomans were basically a Balkan (European) empire. They inherited the Roman institutions and much of the culture. In return, their impact on Europe, especially in the East and Mediterranean is more significant than most people think. In turn, Republic of Turkey inherited many of those institutions and not to mention the people. Frankly, Turkey is what it is and a definition here and there is mostly academic. Cyprus is called European, and Georgia is on a future list for Pete's sake, need I add more?--Murat (talk) 18:52, 28 September 2008 (UTC)[reply]

The Ottomans were more Middle East than Europe. And just because Ottomans took over some european institutions doesn't make them european. You have to look at were you are from and what you are. In my opinion Turks and natives of Turkey are not auropean. But if you really insist of being european, you are welcome to be, I just don't agree. I am not european but a middleeastern myself and proud of it.

Users keep uploading new maps to the file where the consensus map had been, or placing altogether different map files onto the article. Is there a way we can stop this? Adlerschloß (talk) 21:56, 12 August 2008 (UTC)[reply]

It is an ongoing project. Honestly, it is really just one guy in Italy/Germany/Turkey/Holland who was/is a professor/special forces soldier/imam/used car salesman/12 year old in a basement with an issue with the map, and with images in general. This whole thing got kicked off a few years back because he apparently doesn't see eye to eye with policy on image copyvios. He even impersonated you once so to answer your question, there is something we can do... just revert to the consensus version (which is something roughly centered on the country), but avoid edit warring over it... honestly, it is just a map. Hiberniantears (talk) 02:30, 13 August 2008 (UTC)[reply]

Thanks for drawing the impersonation to my attention.... I had no idea. Hilarious. Adlerschloß (talk) 02:58, 13 August 2008 (UTC)[reply]

He's been impersonating me too. I just noticed his talk page there. Thank goodness he/she's banned. This is an editor that Wikipedia can definitely do without.

I didn't notice that Izmir Lee's sock had uploaded a different version. I wouldn't have reverted the map otherwise on the Turkey page, I would have tried reverting the actual map instead.Pureditor 07:40, 13 August 2008 (UTC)[reply]

Hiberniantears, if it is just a map, why don't you insisting on putting that centered map? But you have to know that there isn't a really consensus on it. As you see everybody is trying to change the map. And it isn't nessicery to put a centered map. For example, Cyprus is in the south of Turkey, but it hasn't a centered map on the article. We can't see Egypt, Israel and other countries surrounding it. --81.214.119.236 (talk) 07:48, 13 August 2008 (UTC)[reply]

Just a note to everyone. The above ip address is from Izmir, Turkey, and is clearly a sock of banned user User:Izmir Lee. I removed the posting but he reverted. I shall be putting the account forward to be banned as a sock account.Pureditor 08:31, 13 August 2008 (UTC)[reply]

Its a never ending edit war about this whole map thing, does it really matter, as long as Turkey is shown some where in the world, the whole point of the map is to show the location of the country thats it, but I think for Turkey it's a big thing isn't it - a bridge between Europe and Asia, as it wants to enter into the EU. I think the current map is all right, because it centered between the continents, but the color could be different i.e. RED. to match the flag and emblem. M Miah (talk) 10:46, 13 August 2008 (UTC)[reply]

The current map actually isn't a very good example. The fact that it is orange unlike pretty much all other world maps which are either in red or green is one thing. However, the important thing is that it does not show which part of the world map the cropped area is. Someone with little knowledge in the region may not be able to figure out where it is on the world map. My example shows what I believe would be ideal; the country being the main focus, an indicator on a small world map on where the area cropped is, and a good colour contrast. It doesn't matter if the colour doesn't match the flag and/or emblem as long as it fits well. --Hamster X (talk) 18:10, 13 August 2008 (UTC)[reply]

Just for the record, because I protected the article to prompt some debate, I have no real preference for the map, and am not allowed to enforce any one version on the article. I locked the article on a version of the map that I wouldn't choose, and only locked because of the warring over the map. My Personal opinion is that I think either Image:Map of the Republic of Turkey.png or Image:LocationTurkey2.png are two of the better versions out there, but if consensus emerges that we should actually view a projection of Turkey that flips north and south, and colors the country in plaid, with a view from Siberia, then so be it. At the end of the day, it would still be an accurate map of Turkey. Hiberniantears (talk) 19:14, 13 August 2008 (UTC)[reply]

The current map Image:LocationTurkey.svg is one of the worst, people probably will have no idea where the country is. I cannot believe people have agreed on this one in the last three weeks. A smaller world map on a corner is a must, and in my opinion the (larger) map should include Berlin, Tehran, London, and Moscow (no need to pin them), and some significant portions of their countries. I think we can change the scale, and cover about twice the area without losing important information, so unfortunately US should not be in the larger map, but Great Britain can be shown. It is not so needed but we can show more of North Africa. How do we do the svg version of Image:LocationTurkey2.png? 85.103.230.61 (talk) 20:07, 2 September 2008 (UTC)[reply]

Hi ,

Two days before, I added a new link of Yellow Pages Turkey on "Turkey" page. I dont know why it was removed. Because Yellow Pages is a popular brand for online directory search, I added it considering many will be helpful with that. Could you please add Turkey Yellow Pages link ? —Preceding unsigned comment added by Blackcaps (talk • contribs) 09:21, 22 August 2008 (UTC)[reply]

it should change the place of turkey. the biggest city in turkey is istanbul and it is in europe so turkey is european

What kind of a logic is that? Both Moscow and Leningrad (man I want to call it that way) are in Europe but I haven't seen a single map which depicts whole Russian Federation as a part of Europe. Traditionally, only the lands of former Grand Duchy of Moscow is given as "European". Whatever, I said many times before, it is not that simple to decide the fate of Turkey in this picture because Europe is a cultural term rather than an actual geographical one. People of the region should decide what we'll do with this confusion. Deliogul (talk) 18:07, 15 September 2008 (UTC)[reply]

to change the map which is turkey in europe, is an antiturkist movement. Cyprus is in Asia but it is in the europe map, also turkey was. Why did you change the first map. If we look the maps the map of Turkey in Europe is more logical than the last map. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 139.179.28.42 (talk) 09:20, 17 September 2008 (UTC)[reply]

Hi, I have re-edited the section of Religion, because I have thought that it should provide a neutral point of view of the religious currents in Turkey. The current section summarizes mainly about secularism in Turkey. We all know that Religion recently has had a great impact, with the AK Parti winning a majority, Abdullah Gul for President controversy, and the headscarf ban - where the ban was lifted, but then upheld by the constitutional court. I believe that part of the section atleast should mention the active religiousness present in the country, particuly in politics and the headscarf. But however, these entries by me are reverted many times, especially by a banned user (referring me to as an Islamist). I have then re-edited this section. Please read below, and view/consider whether it provides a neutral perspective on Religion in Turkey. Or any suggestions. Thanks! Mohsin (talk) 14:44, 7 October 2008 (UTC)[reply]

- Version 1:

Islam is the religion with the largest community of followers in the country, with 99.8% of the population or around 70 million people identified as Muslim,^[1] of whom over 75% belong to the Sunni branch of Islam. A sizeable minority, about over 20% of the Muslim population, is affiliated with the Shi'a Alevi sect.^[2] The remainder of the population are mainly Christians, estimated at 120,000 people (mainly Greek Orthodox, Armenian Apostolic and Syriac Orthodox)^[3] and Jewish, estimated at 26,000 people (mainly Sephardi Jews at 96% and a few Ashkenazi Jews).^[4][5] Based on a Pew Research Center report, 65% of the people believe religion is very important.^[6]

Turkey has a secular constitution, with no official state religion.^[7] The strong tradition of secularism in Turkey is essentially similar to the French model of laïcité, in which the state actively monitors the area between the religions.^[8][9] The constitution recognizes the freedom of religion for individuals. No party can claim that it represents a form of religious belief; nevertheless, religious sensibilities are generally represented through conservative parties.^[10][11] The Presidency of Religious Affairs (Diyanet İşleri Başkanlığı) represents the highest Islamic religious authority in the country, established in 1924 after the abolition of the caliphate, where it is organized by the state, under the Hanafi school of Sunni Islam, which controls all muftis and mosques.^[12] Since 1586, Istanbul has been the seat of the Ecumenical Patriarchate of Constantinople (unofficialy Fener Rum Patrikhanesi), which is one of the fourteen autocephalous Eastern Orthodox churches.^[13]

Turkey prohibits the wearing of the Hijab or the Islamic headscarf by law - banned in government buildings, schools, and universities, and is an ongoing debate in Turkish society.^[14] The headscarf (known as the Türban in Turkish) is viewed as a 'symbol of political Islam' by secularists, and the European Court of Human Rights ruled that the law was "legitimate" in the Leyla Şahin v. Turkey case on November 10, 2005,^[15], however also viewed as a 'religious freedom' by conservatives, which is worn by around 60% of Turkish women.^[16] During February 2008, The lifting of the headscarf ban was passed by parliament, however annulled by the Constitutional Court in June 2008, illustrating the struggle between two different identities.^{[17][18][19][20]}

-

Let us once again remember that our goal is to describe things, not pass judgement on them. Having said that, I believe recent developments should be mentioned briefly, because this article should provide a whirlwind tour, not emphasizing the present to the past (or the reverse). We can go into detail in the Religion in Turkey article. --Adoniscik^{(t, c)} 14:57, 7 October 2008 (UTC)[reply]

Well I am still unable to briefly summarize these developments of headscarf etc., because most users want large info. in the article ie. Secularism, which i have tried to summarize but reverted. Mohsin (talk) 15:31, 7 October 2008 (UTC)[reply]

I think the section structure above is not that bad. The only problem I see is that some parts are unclear and looks like the statements of someone who already knows the situation in the country. You know many people see the article of Turkey in Wikipedia by chance and maybe without any rooted knowledge about the country. For example; "The role of religion in politics has been a much controversial debate most recently, with the rise of an Islamist-rooted government, feared that it would undermine the secular principles of the state, which caused controversy among the people, leading to many protests". This part is not good for a couple of reasons. First, what is "most recently" exactly refers to? Second, what do we mean by " Islamist-rooted government"? Third, who is exactly afraid of these religious guys? I know the historical background of the rise of tight religious conservatism in this country, I at least have some understanding of AKP (imho they are "uncivilized religion-freaks") and I'm an individual from the social segment that is afraid of/angry at AKP. You see, I know this stuff but foreigners don't. Deliogul (talk) 17:38, 7 October 2008 (UTC)[reply]

I have tried to fix those passages of which you have highlighted, any suggestion or still not right? please say. Thanks! Mohsin (talk) 17:51, 7 October 2008 (UTC)[reply]

There is an important thing that you have to learn before editing a controversial article like Turkey. I believe that part of the section at least should mention the active religiousness present in the country... these are yours Tangooman. Secularism is not religiousness. Secularists and Kemalists are not irreligious. They only support secularism in Turkey. You can't summarize secularism in the article how you want because secularism is the foundation of Turkey. Secularism in Turkey is the main article and secularism in this article is already a summarized version of it. AKP and its agendas can't mentioned in religion section. It's part of politics section. Also i realized you removed the verdict of the European Court of Human Rights which legitimates the ban of Leyla Şahin's headscarf in Turkey. Please tell me, why did you remove it? Ha? You are not a neutral editor like you say... And i also added the current version of the religion section of the article for comparison both of them.. --Turkish Flame ^☎ 18:43, 7 October 2008 (UTC)[reply]

Sorry I missed that one out, replaced it back into the section. I believe I have fixed the section, because secularism of Turkey is very well summarized, and it is not the AKP only mentioned, but the whole religiousness risen in the country. The aspect of politics is one of the key elements of the this 'conservatism' in society, in relation to the headscarf, which overall views the concept of conservatism of Turkey as well as secularism. This should be mentioned in the Religion section, because these are part of this rise in conservatism. And of course I know secularists are not irreligious and are still Muslims, they believe religion is a personal thing, and should not be involved in politics, right? And you have said religiousness should mentioned as well, well I believe I have done that. Mohsin (talk) 22:06, 7 October 2008 (UTC)[reply]

I didn't say religiousness should mentioned . These are yours. I only put them into my paragraph as an evidence. I don't think we should mention AKP in religion section. Because in Turkey no party can claim that it represents a form of religious belief. We should mention about Presidency of Religious Affairs (Diyanet İşleri Başkanlığı) instead of headscarf controversy. --Turkish Flame ^☎ 04:56, 8 October 2008 (UTC)[reply]

Yes the law says that, and the parties do not represent a religious belief, but however some of these parties do in someway represent a certain type of people (conservatives). I believe this should be mentioned, how can you not include this information in the article, because it is related to Religion. Currently there is a definite struggle between those favouring Religious identity, and Secular identity. You cannot hide this information, because there is a large religious part present in Turkey, and the secularism should not hide that. For example, say if someone was wondering what is going on in Turkey Religion in the media, they would come to Wikipedia and find there's nothing there, so the article has not really provided such information for the people, it is about providing this information. Headscarf is actually one of the main aspects of this, which part of the Religion of Turkey. All of the information is based on the significance of Religion in the country as a whole, viewing how Religion is present in the country of the people, not exactly politics. Mohsin (talk) 11:17, 8 October 2008 (UTC)[reply]

• I think the current version of the religion section in the article is enough. The only thing that we have lack of is Presidency of Religious Affairs (Diyanet İşleri Başkanlığı). It should be added to the article. I don't accept your proposal. It's unneutral. --Turkish Flame ^☎ 15:50, 8 October 2008 (UTC)[reply]

I have to disagree because, I believe it is neutral because it views both sides of society. In my version it mentions conservatism present and the secularism present. But in the one below, it only views the secularism and thats it - how is that neutral? It does not make sense to say my one is 'unneutral', because I have tried the very best to balance it out between both of these ideologies. Please look at it, and you will see that there is more information of secularism present then there is conservatism, but in comparison to other revision, it is more neutral. Mohsin (talk) 16:00, 8 October 2008 (UTC)[reply]

• As you can see, the main articles of this section are Religion in Turkey, Islam in Turkey, Christianity in Turkey, Judaism in Turkey and Secularism in Turkey. Not Conservatism in Turkey. So your version should be added in politics section with more neutrality. AK Parti is not a religion (like Islam and Christianity) or a religious group (like Muslims and Christians). --Turkish Flame ^☎ 16:15, 8 October 2008 (UTC)[reply]

??? This conservatism/secularism clash section presents the religiousness of the country, it is related to Religion, that is why the section is called that. It is also related to the articles of Religion in Turkey, Islam in Turkey and Secularism in Turkey, where these articles do in some way have these informations of political controversies, relating to the role of religion. Conservatism, is another word for religiousness', you can't create an article called that. These parties have been involved in some way in favor of religiousness' with the headscarf etc., this is one of the main topics of Religion present in today's Turkey. Mohsin (talk) 16:22, 8 October 2008 (UTC)[reply]

• Look! You wrote above political controversies. This is not about religion as you say. And there is no religiousness in Turkey except atheists. Secularists are also Muslim and believe in God. According to Eurobarometer's recent survey, 95% of Turkish people stated that religion is important. How can they be irreligious? And headscarf issue is part of politics. Because it is a political symbol of AKP. Remember, AKP's anti- secularist closure case which accepted by 6 (majority) of the 11 members of the Constitutional Court of Turkey but it didn't shut down because 7 members had to accept it according to laws. So it is an obvious political symbol. Not religious. --Turkish Flame ^☎ 16:56, 8 October 2008 (UTC)[reply]

This section will never be complete unless it covers the Christian institutions properly also. Istanbul is the seat of Greek-Orthodox Church and one can not tell that from this article for example. Political commentary should also be not included. This is not the place to analyze current political party platforms and make judgements and worse, tie them to religion. Politics is NOT a religious activity.--Murat (talk) 17:52, 8 October 2008 (UTC)[reply]

I completely agree with Murat. Politics isn't a religious activity. Also we should mention about Presidency of Religious Affairs (Diyanet İşleri Başkanlığı) and Greek-Orthodox Church in Istanbul which is still active from Byzantine period.

Religiousness does not refer to those who have a religion, but who are 'religious' - meaning devout. One who visits the article will only go away knowing the only fact that people are secular, but without taking knowledge that there are also many devout Muslims present in Turkey. With all the secularism info, and not 'religiousness' (devout Muslims) available, then that is biased. All are Muslims, but there are two sections. One secular Muslims, and one religious or devout Muslims. That is what I have included. And I have not mentioned AKP. This political information of headscarves and such, is information relating to the rise of conservatism/devoutness/religiousness of some of the Turkish people, which overall looks at the society as a whole, not just politics, but Religion in Society. Mohsin (talk) 18:41, 8 October 2008 (UTC)[reply]

You have mentioned AKP as islamic rooted governments. As you see all users disagree with you. Politics isn't a religious activity. And islam is mentioned enough in the article. If you want to improve the article, add something about other religions in Turkey like Ecumenical Patriarchate of Constantinople and Greek Orthodox Church of Antioch and several others. --Turkish Flame ^☎ 18:55, 8 October 2008 (UTC)[reply]

OK i have added the Diyanet İşleri Başkanlığı information, i'll try to improve this further. Mohsin (talk) 19:01, 8 October 2008 (UTC)[reply]

You have to add it to the current version, not your version. Because nobody accepted it. --Turkish Flame ^☎ 19:12, 8 October 2008 (UTC)[reply]

Well first let me fix my version, and then we'll decide on that. I will move the politics information to the Government and Politics section. However I will add a few information of the headscarf, after the mentioning of the ban for a fair data. Mohsin (talk) 21:27, 8 October 2008 (UTC)[reply]

• Politics section sort: During the period of 2007-2008, the fear of Islam in politics began to be a very controversial debate, where conservative governments (mainly by the AK Parti) have been involved with non-secular activities, which many people believe could undermine the secular principles of the state, this has led to many protests against these non-secular acts, where the lifting of the headscarf ban was passed by parliament, however annulled by the Constitutional Court. The chief prosecutor then asked the court to ban the AK Parti (which has Islamist roots) for being involved in non-secular activities, however escaped the ban proposal by just one vote.^[21][22]

• I have re-edited the section again, please view and hopefully it is more suitable for the section. I hope you can re-consider if you can, or any problems please suggest these and I could be able to fix it hopefully. Thank you! Mohsin (talk) 22:17, 8 October 2008 (UTC)[reply]

• Ok, add these Politics section to the current politics section in the article. But the religion section is still unacceptable. Stop trying to edit the religion section. --Turkish Flame ^☎ 15:50, 9 October 2008 (UTC)[reply]

I have just added it now in that section, thanks.

• Is there anything wrong with the 'Religion' section then, please point out the negativities in that please. I don't think there is a real problem because, the only thing that is mentioned is that the headscarf is banned, but also worn by a majority. Is it the clash info or something? Mohsin (talk) 16:11, 9 October 2008 (UTC)[reply]

I have edited that section again, please view, thanks! Mohsin (talk) 16:14, 9 October 2008 (UTC)[reply]

• Yes, headscarf is banned again, i know. But it isn't worn by a majority. It's according to Turkish Economic and Social Studies Foundation which is controlled by the government. See Think tank#Turkey. So it is unneutral. And headscarf and hijab are different. Headscarf which covers part of the head, not all head and hair, is a tradition among villager women. But hijab, which covers all over the body, is a symbol of islam and political islam. I think current religion section is good enough except Diyanet İşleri Başkanlığı and Greek Orthodox Church of Constantinople and Antioch --Turkish Flame ^☎ 16:33, 9 October 2008 (UTC)[reply]

But in Turkey the headscarf means the covering of the hair in any type of conservative fashion or Islamic fashion. Some women do not wear the full way of wearing the hijab, but do wear the headscarf, which in any way is viewed as a threat to the secular system (type 'Turkey headscarf' on Google, many sources appear, but 'Turkey hijab' a lot but moderate.) The headscarf is actually worn by a majority of women in Turkey, in many sources including American and British, do cite that it is worn by at least 60% of the women (type 'Turkey headscarf 60 percent' on Google). There are no other sources to view how many exact women where it, I believe if it based on many sources then it is reliable, but you have said it is not, I think that is original research don't you think ? Mohsin (talk) 16:44, 9 October 2008 (UTC)[reply]

• I know my country better than you :) So listen to me carefully. Hijab (Kara çarşaf in Turkish, literally black sheet in English) is very uncommon in Turkey. Türban is worn by AKP partisans and conservatists which is not majority. And headscarf (baş örtüsü in Turkish, literally head cloth in English) is worn by old villager women which is not a danger for secularism. --Turkish Flame ^☎ 17:30, 9 October 2008 (UTC)[reply]

• 
  Hijab is very uncommon in Turkey
• 
  An elder Turkish villager woman wearing traditional village dress including non-islamic headscarf
• 
  Top-left: Turkish women wearing türban which is a political symbol and danger for secularism

Erm ok then I understand that know, knowing that you are Turkish and all, but I am probably viewing this 'headscarf' as from a western perspective, because the 'turban' is actually referred to probably as 'headscarf' then (because it is a Turkish word). I am coming from a western English perspective, rather than Turkish. Let me make changes. Mohsin (talk) 17:44, 9 October 2008 (UTC)[reply]

• Ohh! At least you understood. But still we can't add your proposed version to the article. Because it is not reflects the truth. The current version is good enough and doesn't need any new version. --Turkish Flame ^☎ 17:50, 9 October 2008 (UTC)[reply]

The reason why I think my version is better is because first, the layout of the section is considerably more neat, and is sectioned very well according to topic. It talks about not just the secular constitution, but also stating the Kemalist ideology of which I have added, more emphasis on the Religious doctrine info, more accurate statistics of populations, it goes more in depth into the headscarf (or Türban) stating that it is banned, also stating it is however worn by a lot of people, and is one of the main controversies of religion present in Turkey. If you compare both of these together, you would see a major difference. You would be able to read it more understandably, and gain more information, and atleast a distance away of balanced information at the end. Mohsin (talk) 18:07, 9 October 2008 (UTC)[reply]

• As you see, all users are disagreed with you. Turkish Flame, Murat, Deliogul, Adoniscik (he said we can go into detail in the Religion in Turkey article, not in Turkey article) but you are still trying to edit it. No good can be achieved by force. Please give up your obstinacy. --Turkish Flame ^☎ 18:27, 9 October 2008 (UTC)[reply]

They haven't viewed or commented yet, but if they do not go in favor of my revision, well all I have to say I am trying to improve the article, by improving how it is presented for the users on Wikipedia, not for myself, it is about what information is provided, and I think the current revision of mine gives a fair look of Religion in Turkey, just trying to help out. OK. Salaam. Thankyou! Mohsin (talk) 18:33, 9 October 2008 (UTC)[reply]

• Your welcome. Have a good day and good editing! See you! --Turkish Flame ^☎ 18:47, 9 October 2008 (UTC)[reply]

Would you be able to point out the reasons of why you are not in favor of my revision and in favor of the other one, please refer to the texts provided, and how they differ from each other. Thanks. Mohsin (talk) 19:38, 9 October 2008 (UTC)[reply]

It doesn't look bad. It can be better if we can specifically mention Istanbul being the seat of Fener Rum Patrikhanesi, which is one of the most powerful Orthodox churches of the world. I personally thank the one who mentioned it in the discussion. By the way Stephan Micus was at Hagia Irene just a couple of hours ago. He performed a great solo concert in which he made history with a Bavarian musical instrument as he sang an old Greek prayer about Mother Mary. I let you dream about it ;) Deliogul (talk) 22:10, 9 October 2008 (UTC)[reply]

Just added that info in as requested, better now? Mohsin (talk) 15:59, 10 October 2008 (UTC)[reply]

• Yes. Information about Diyanet İşleri Başkanlığı and Orthodox Church of Constantinople (Fener Rum Patrikhanesi) are good. We can add them to the article immediately. Not your proposed version. --Turkish Flame ^☎ 16:30, 10 October 2008 (UTC)[reply]

Why not my proposed version? Is there really such difference between these revisions, the only difference is the structure of it, more emphasis on Kemalism, more info on the organizations, more info about the headscarf, more comprehensive population statistics. I have improved the section of the article quite well. ??? Mohsin (talk) 16:53, 10 October 2008 (UTC)[reply]

• No, i don't agree with you. Kemalism does not need your emphasis. Leave this issue to the Turks please. --Turkish Flame ^☎ 17:18, 10 October 2008 (UTC)[reply]

Well that just proves the only reason why you are against it because of me being a non-Turkish, Wikipedia does not say articles of a certain country are to be edited by a certain nationality. Regardless of your 'nationality', 'ethnic group' or 'religious beliefs', you should be able to edit anything you like. I find it very offensive. So therefore I believe your argument of this discussion is not valid due to these personal reasons. Mohsin (talk) 17:28, 10 October 2008 (UTC)[reply]

• You have the right to edit Wikipedia's non-Bangladeshi articles too! But you are not well-informed about Kemalism, Islam in Turkey, Secularism in Turkey, Christianity in Turkey, Judaism in Turkey... I said Leave this issue to the Turks. Because we know it better than you and truth of the Wikipedia is the most important thing. Do it for Wikipedia and edit the articles which you know well. For example i have never edited Bangladesh because i don't know anything about it... --Turkish Flame ^☎ 17:37, 10 October 2008 (UTC)[reply]

That information was not even present, so you cannot say 'leave it to the Turks' because no one has even bothered to enter in it, and when someone does, *that person* is attacked even though he is contributing for article, and they haven't. Completely makes sense. By the way how did you know I edit Bangladesh articles (which I don't), the only person who ratified that was the other Ayca somethin' guy. ? Mohsin (talk) 18:40, 10 October 2008 (UTC)[reply]

• [1], [2], [3], [4]... are they enough to prove? --Turkish Flame ^☎ 18:51, 10 October 2008 (UTC)[reply]

Yes I make little contributions here and there (not significantly). And is not relevant I think of discussing this at all. Mohsin (talk) 18:55, 10 October 2008 (UTC)[reply]

Turkish Flame, keeping Kemalism as a secret shrine is not a good idea. You argued that only Turks have right to deal with it, which is not an academic standing. All such issues are global and you can't take them from the hands of the "foreigners". If it was how the world operates, then you, as a Turk, wouldn't have a chance to discuss National Socialism because it's German, Socialist Realism because it's Russian or Liberalism because it's British (or we must say "Western" instead) etc. Deliogul (talk) 14:57, 18 October 2008 (UTC)[reply]

- Version 2 (current):

Islam is the religion with the largest community of followers in the country, where 99.8% of the population is nominally Muslim,^[23] of whom over 75% belong to the Sunni branch of Islam. A sizeable minority, about over 20% of the Muslim population, is affiliated with the Shi'a Alevi sect.^[24] The Bektashi belong to a Sufi order of Islam that is indigenous to Turkey, but also has numerous followers in the Balkan peninsula. Islam arrived in the region that comprises present-day Turkey, particularly the eastern provinces of the country, as early as the 7th century AD. Turkey also has numerous important sites for Judaism and Christianity, being one of the birth places of the latter. As of today, there are thousands of historical mosques, churches and synagogues throughout the country which are still active. The mainstream Hanafite school of Sunni Islam is largely organized by the state, through the Religious Affairs Directorate, which controls all mosques and Muslim clerics. The remainder of the population belongs to other faiths, particularly Christian denominations (Greek Orthodox, Armenian Apostolic, Syriac Orthodox, Catholic and Protestant), and Judaism (mostly Sephardi Jews, and a relatively smaller Ashkenazi community.)^[25] According to a Pew Research Center report in 2002, 65% of the people in Turkey believe "religion is very important",Cite error: The <ref> tag has too many names (see the help page). while according to a Eurobarometer poll in 2005, 95% of Turkish citizens responded that "they believe there is a God".^[26]

Turkey has a secular constitution, with no official state religion.^[27] The strong tradition of secularism in Turkey is essentially similar to the French model of laïcité, in which the state actively monitors the area between the religions.^[8] The constitution recognizes the freedom of religion for individuals, whereas the religious communities are placed under the protection and jurisdiction of the state and can't become involved in the political process (e.g. by forming a religious party) or establish faith-based schools. No political party can claim that it represents a form of religious belief; nevertheless, religious sensibilities are generally represented through conservative parties.^[8] Turkey prohibits by law the wearing of religious headcover and theo-political symbolic garments for both genders in government buildings, schools, and universities;^[28] the law was upheld by the Grand Chamber of the European Court of Human Rights as "legitimate" in the Leyla Şahin v. Turkey case on November 10, 2005.^[29]

-

I don't have time for a protracted debate, but it seems to me that there is disagreement over the meaning of some terms, such as "secularism", "hijab" and so on. I don't actually see a major difference between the revisions being suggested, but I may well have missed the fine print. Some people said that the issue is political and not religious, but this assumes the choices are mutually exclusive. The opposition to the AKP is based on their religious stance, is it not? That is what the closer case was about, after all. --Adoniscik^{(t, c)} 22:54, 9 October 2008 (UTC)[reply]

• I have re-edited the section to present a neutral point of view of the Religion section in Turkey (Version 1), however is reverted continiously by other editors, re-edited even further, but still not accepted. Please add comments below whether you Agree with the revision of which I have created (Version 1) or Disagree with the revision (accepting current revision - V2):

Consensus vote for Version 1 - Agree or Disagree?

• Agree and accept it because, I have tried the very best to present a neutral section (between secularism and other details). Mohsin (talk) 15:17, 12 October 2008 (UTC)[reply]

• Abstain based on the comments above. More referenced statistics on the numbers of people with various religious beliefs is helpful, but even more helpful would be referenced statistics on the degree to which the people with particular religious beliefs are devout in those beliefs, even within political parties. Also, spelling out what is meant by the head/hair coverings would be helpful (covering some hair, all hair, the whole head, or the whole body). Info on the timing of the various events relating to the head/hair covering controversy would also be helpful. Referenced info on Istanbul being the center of the Eastern Orthodox Church would also be helpful. I am also adding this reference^[8] to this page to make this page look better.   — Jeff G. (talk|contribs) 16:09, 12 October 2008 (UTC)[reply]

Thanks for your comments. Mohsin (talk) 16:40, 12 October 2008 (UTC)[reply]

- I have added the information to the article again, for another round of consensus, if no edit then OK, according to the policy. Mohsin (talk) 17:25, 12 October 2008 (UTC)[reply]

• Disagree because it smells like AK Parti's propagandas and removing Republic Protests photo is unacceptable. I only support adding information about Diyanet İşleri Başkanlığı and Eastern Orthodox Church of Constantinople. Secularism is the foundation of the Republic of Turkey and it can't be overshadowed. --Turkish Flame ^☎ 18:45, 12 October 2008 (UTC)[reply]

• Disagree. What are you trying to justify? TURKEY IS NOT AS RUDE AS YOU KNOW. We have lots of modern women in our streets. The turban is a choice. Not a political symbol. But AKP made it a symbol, and every European believe that we are rude and inductive. Let's try to be honest. WHY DOES EVERY PERSON LIKE YOU WANTS TO DESTROY TURKEY? The muslims like you; shows bad profile to Western community. Please try to choose modern Islam. With respect. Good luck. --♪♫Atakan^0652|mesaj 19:56, 12 October 2008 (UTC)

• Disagree What's your problem, Tangomaan...R U blind?...Gimme one good reason for this, you don't know Turkey 'n Turkish people, maybe you don't know Islam...Vikipedist (talk) 16:45, 13 October 2008 (UTC)[reply]

The voting for a consensus has been suspended due to issues with two points of views, rather than posting negative comments, it would be more grateful if you can provide a solution to this problem (headscarf info just fine currently.) 16:48, 13 October 2008 (UTC)

OK mohsin, negative comments:)...I know your point of view, this is your voting...For your mission or duty, whatever...You have to know Islam, Turkey, Turkish people...before voting...Vikipedist (talk) 17:03, 13 October 2008 (UTC)[reply]

OK... not helping out all. Mohsin (talk) 17:07, 13 October 2008 (UTC)[reply]

• Abstain, because unfortunately, both have propaganda elements from each extreme end. We need to work together in order to present the great nation of Turkey in its own light, not the light of secularism nor the light of Islamism. We need to understand things using the correct terminology, as well as important historical context, without avoiding any of the controversies. So far we have not achieved any of that, and until we can, both versions are completely unacceptable. Both sides of extremism are incorrect: who is to say the Turkish people and their nation can be so simply defined? We are talking about a people who have for over one thousand years created civilizations, and left their mark from Europe to China. Both sides of extremism, both the secular and Islamic extremists, are not giving their due to what Turkey and the Turkish people truly stand for. --Enzuru 20:29, 12 October 2008 (UTC)[reply]

Thanks for your comments. I have tried to balance that section out to the very best. Leaving out the population stats and Religious positions, the second paragraph looks to be favoring *secularism* information, however in the third paragraph it does include information from both sides of opinions... Mohsin (talk) 20:54, 12 October 2008 (UTC)[reply]

Alternative version - I have re-edited the section again, the headscarf controversy will be summarized at the politics section. Please view below and I hope you will come to your senses to accept this one, Thank you! (PS. I have removed Republic Protests, because it is a demonstration, and will not be suitable for an FA article.) Mohsin (talk) 22:11, 12 October 2008 (UTC) :[reply]

Islam is the religion with the largest community of followers in the country, with 99.8% of the population or around 70 million people identified as Muslim,^[30] of whom over 75% belong to the Sunni branch of Islam. A sizeable minority, about over 20% of the Muslim population, is affiliated with the Shi'a Alevi sect.^[31] The remainder of the population are mainly Christians, estimated at 120,000 people (mainly Greek Orthodox, Armenian Apostolic and Syriac Orthodox)^[32] and Jewish, estimated at 26,000 people (mainly Sephardi Jews at 96% and a few Ashkenazi Jews).^[33][34]

Turkey has a secular constitution, with no official state religion.^[35] The strong tradition of secularism in Turkey is essentially similar to the French model of laïcité, in which the state actively monitors the area between the religions.^[8][36] The constitution recognizes the freedom of religion for individuals. No party can claim that it represents a form of religious belief; nevertheless, religious sensibilities are generally represented through conservative parties.^[37][38] Turkey prohibits the wearing of the Hijab or the Islamic headscarf by law - banned in government buildings, schools, and universities, based on a secular tradition, and is an ongoing debate in Turkish society.^{[39][40][41][42][43][44]}

The Presidency of Religious Affairs (Diyanet İşleri Başkanlığı) represents the highest Islamic religious authority in the country, established in 1924 after the abolition of the caliphate, where it is organized by the state, under the Hanafi school of Sunni Islam, which controls all muftis and mosques.^[45] The Bektashi belong to a Sufi order of Islam which is indigenous to Turkey. Since 1586, Istanbul has been the seat of the Ecumenical Patriarchate of Constantinople (unofficialy Fener Rum Patrikhanesi), which is one of the fourteen autocephalous Eastern Orthodox churches.^[46] Based on a Pew Research Center report, 65% of the people believe religion is very important.^[47]

Right away, I am still given from this that the headscarf is a universally accepted Islamic practice. There is no correct context for me to understand the ban. I think that was the problem with the secular version as well: no proper context is given to what the hijab is, what kind of Muslims wear it, and why it is banned in Turkey in detail. --Enzuru 22:19, 12 October 2008 (UTC)[reply]

That is what I have tried to do, but secular extremists really don't accept the 'why?' business for some reason. Mohsin (talk) 22:22, 12 October 2008 (UTC)[reply]

I am pretty sure the secularists are the ones who are very stringent in saying that they see it as a political symbol. That is one important view of it that should be mentioned. Also, like one member brought up, what exactly does hijab mean in the Turkish context? Second, many Muslim groups such as the Alevi or Nizari don't wear hijab, so is it really Islamic? --Enzuru 22:25, 12 October 2008 (UTC)[reply]

Also, there has been no mention of military coups when this supposed secularism is threatened, and how this has been an issue with Turkey coming into the European Union. --Enzuru 22:30, 12 October 2008 (UTC)[reply]

The main user against my edit (Turkish Flame maybe a sock) only accepts the mention of secularism and that's it. We cannot have a perspective like that, because we are advised to come up with a neutral solution to this section. The headscarf is seen as a symbol of political Islam, and also mentioned it is however seen as a religious freedom (worn by 60%). The headscarf was seen as backwardness by Ataturk, it was later banned in the 80s by the military as a warning to Islamic parties, and since then is viewed as a political symbol. Any suggestions or edits that could help Enzuru ? Mohsin (talk) 22:38, 12 October 2008 (UTC)[reply]

In Turkish they refer to the headscarf as the 'Turban' so we should add that as a guide for less confusion, and remove Islamic then. Mohsin (talk) 22:47, 12 October 2008 (UTC)[reply]

I didn't mean the word itself, I meant that one user pointed out that headscarves are very often worn by Turkish women, but the abaya-like stuff isn't. Is this true? Or am I misunderstanding? It is things like this we need to clear before we can do any rewrite whatsoever. And we can't remove Islamic altogether, because most Muslims do believe in this hijab. We need to specify what kind of Muslims, or use a non-weasel adjective. --Enzuru 22:50, 12 October 2008 (UTC)[reply]

Yes the abaya is very uncommon in Turkey, it is mainly the types of headscarves which are wrapped round the head un-loosely the most commonly worn in the world today. People who wear headscarves (the Turban in Turkish) are mainly the conservative people or the religious (how it is view by secularists)[5] Mohsin (talk) 22:57, 12 October 2008 (UTC)[reply]

Information of headscarf ban: The new law was introduced under a military coup in 1982, since then women are forced to un-cover or do not attend, there is however strong supported for the ban to be lifted.^[48][49][50]

I suggest we let someone else do a rewrite and then you make edits to it and see what they have to say, instead of you doing the rewrite over and over. It'll give us a better perspective of what exactly we need to do, and save you a headache. --Enzuru 23:13, 12 October 2008 (UTC)[reply]

• Re-edit paragraph (trying):

Turkey has a secular constitution, with no official state religion.^[51] The strong tradition of secularism in Turkey is essentially similar to the French model of laïcité, in which the state actively monitors the area between the religions.^[8][52] The constitution recognizes the freedom of religion for individuals. No party can claim that it represents a form of religious belief; nevertheless, religious sensibilities are generally represented through conservative parties.^[53][54] Turkey prohibits the wearing of the Hijab or the Islamic headscarf by law - banned in government buildings, schools, and universities, based on a secular tradition, and is an ongoing debate in Turkish society.^{[55][56][57][58][59][60]}

Still, it says Islamic headscarf. Let's let one of the others do it and you edit it so no one can complain from their end. --Enzuru 00:21, 13 October 2008 (UTC)[reply]

--- Consensus not met, due to new update to the section which looks acceptable at this situation ( by a new user called thunder somthin). More work needs to be done and improved about the headscarf controversy in the religious communities. Mohsin (talk) 13:15, 13 October 2008 (UTC) The new version in the article was created by possibly a sock (very surprising edits) and has seperated the religious communities and secularism, please view if this is acceptable, thanks: (PS population statistics, and headscarf controversy was agreed by two users.) 16:37, 13 October 2008 (UTC)[reply]

According to a Pew Research Center report in 2002, 65% of the people in Turkey believe"religion is very important",Cite error: The <ref> tag has too many names (see the help page). while according to aEurobarometer poll in 2005, 95% of Turkish citizens responded that they believe "there is aGod".^[61]

Islam is the religion with the largest community of followers in the country, with 99.8% of the population or around 70 million people identified asMuslim,^[62] of whom over 75% belong to the Sunni branch of Islam. A sizeable minority, about over 20% of the Muslim population, is affiliated with the Shi'a Alevi sect.^[63] The remainder of the population are mainly Christians, estimated at 120,000 people (mainly Greek Orthodox, Armenian Apostolic and Syriac Orthodox)^[64] and Jewish, estimated at 26,000 people (mainly Sephardi Jews at 96% and a few Ashkenazi Jews).^[65][66]

The Presidency of Religious Affairs (Diyanet İşleri Başkanlığı) represents the highestIslamic religious authority in the country, established in 1924 after the abolition of thecaliphate, where it is organized by the state, under the Hanafi school of Sunni Islam, which controls all muftis and mosques.^[67] Since 1586,Istanbul has been the seat of the Ecumenical Patriarchate of Constantinople (unofficialy Fener Rum Patrikhanesi), which is one of the fourteen autocephalous Eastern Orthodox churches.^[68] The headscarf or hijab (known as the türban), is worn by the conservative Muslim women in the country, and has had a great impact in Turkish society since it was banned in most public places since, 1982. These type of headscarves are seen as a political Islamic symbol - a threat to the secular system.^[69][70][71]

Turkey has a secular constitution, with no official state religion.^[72] The strong tradition of secularism in Turkey is essentially similar to the French model of laïcité, in which the state actively monitors the area between the religions.^[8] The constitution recognizes the freedom of religion for individuals, whereas the religious communities are placed under the protection and jurisdiction of the state and can't become involved in the political process (e.g. by forming a religious party) or establish faith-based schools. No political party can claim that it represents a form of religious belief; nevertheless, religious sensibilities are generally represented through conservative parties.^[8] Turkey prohibits by law the wearing of religious headcover and theo-political symbolic garments for both genders in government buildings, schools, and universities;^[73] the law was upheld by the Grand Chamber of the European Court of Human Rights as "legitimate" in the Leyla Şahin v. Turkey case on November 10, 2005.^[74]

After seeing discussions and edits that have failed to reach a conclusion. I have come up with a new discussion to allow users to work together and come out with a solution that does show a neutral prospective to the very least of secularism and conservatism. Many might be thinking that *no* just secularism, but we all know Religion has had a great impact on society, especially the *headscarf*, this must be mentioned in the article, or we as Wikipedians have failed to create a neutral prospective for the readers, it should not be based on what we believe in, but what the reality is and should be presented rather be hidden.

Main points:

• Religion statistics (my proposed version I believe, because with accurate stats, and *nominally* however, does not apply to every Turk.
• Religious organizations
• Secularism/Kemalism
• Headscarf controversy

Please add any comments (to add or use texts please use references from previous revisions). Mohsin (talk) 17:38, 13 October 2008 (UTC)[reply]

Everything needs to be placed in a correct context most importantly. Without that we're all just going to continue to disagree. --Enzuru 17:43, 13 October 2008 (UTC)[reply]

I am currently trying to structure the current version on the article again so we can get the main points straight, looks very messy. The image of secular protests look unsuitable because it is a demonstration or protest (should be moved to Politics). Mohsin (talk) 17:51, 13 October 2008 (UTC)[reply]

The protests are part of the context, ie, the view of separation of politics and faith. --Enzuru 18:00, 13 October 2008 (UTC)[reply]

Yes, you are right Enzuru. The Republic Protests image is part of the secularism in Turkey and can't be removed. And also I'm fed up with Tangomaan's insistences. Nobody agreed on his proposed version several times. Tangomaan, you are unable to edit the religion section. You are not well-informed enough to edit. Also the headscarf issue in Turkey is nearly ended. The current problems of Turkey are PKK (the last 15 martyrs got us closer [6]) and the Economic crisis of 2008. If you want to help Wikipedia and Turkey, you should add current economical problems of Turkey and cross-border operations into Northern Iraq [7] to the article. --Turkish Flame ^☎ 19:02, 13 October 2008 (UTC)[reply]

What people cannot really see is the whole point of this is to create the section and bring a clean and neutral presentation, even though some have disagreed (favoring secularism), I have tried atleast to bring a neutral representation of the section, I would like everyone else to try this please, Thank you. Peace. [8] Mohsin (ps. the headscarf issue still not ended, the gov said will look into the issue again, for example, responding by adding restrictions to alchohol.) (talk) 21:50, 13 October 2008 (UTC)[reply]

You should all be respectful and not be as shameful as you are being. Everyone is trying their best, and yes, people differ in their views, but no one is trying to terrorize this article. We are human beings and are trying our best. Now please, be civil, and love one another. --Enzuru 21:51, 13 October 2008 (UTC)[reply]

I am still allowed to edit the section, for example the structure or images, but keep text the same. Please do not revert, thanks! Mohsin (talk) 22:08, 13 October 2008 (UTC)[reply]

• The term nominally - is this word really a good word to use. First let us view what this word means (Dictionary.com): by or as regards name; in name; ostensibly: He was nominally the leader, but others actually ran the organization. This term basically means 'by name', right. Relating to the text in the article it says '99.8% of the population are nominally Muslims.' I have raised the question because, this term might not apply to all of the Muslims in Turkey. It says here '99.8%... nominally...' This will suggest to the reader that all Muslims are just Muslims by name, this applies to many others, but however it does not apply to many others as well. There are currently no statistics to suggest these nominal Muslims or not, but is this a really suitable term to use? This is how it is summarized In Cultural Muslim (Turkey) it states: Officially, about 99.8% of the population in Turkey is reported to be Muslim.[9] However, the Turkish people share a culture that was heavily influenced by the religion of Islam. One can connect to the Muslim aspects within Turkish culture without accepting all of Islamic theology. Mohsin (talk) 17:26, 14 October 2008 (UTC)[reply]

The fact is, you have no way of knowing what actual number of people are in fact practicing Muslims. "Nominally" suits the purpose here since the 99.8% figure is itself somewhat dubious. I see it used in the same sense as stating that Ireland or Spain have populations which are nominally Catholic in the majority. It recognizes that there exists a religious cultural identity, while not attempting to specify different levels of religious observance. Given the nature of this article, I think "nominally" suits the description. An alternative would be to remove the percentage and simply say something along the lines of "Turkey's population is predominantly Muslim, with additional religious minorities such as...". Personally, I am nominally Catholic; I haven't been to church in years and think the institution is a joke, but I still identify myself as culturally Irish-Catholic. That is essentially what the "nominally" allows. It says this is nominally what people are, without trying to divine the inner religious beliefs of each member of society. In light of the ongoing edit wars that you have been engaged in here, I would say that taking issue with this particular phrase would serve no productive purpose at this time, and in fact would probably just serve to throw more fuel on the fire. Hiberniantears (talk) 17:39, 14 October 2008 (UTC)[reply]

• I think this term is suitable for the article. Because 99,8% of the population includes non-practicing Muslims too which are not classified true Muslims by Islam. --Turkish Flame ^☎ 17:40, 14 October 2008 (UTC)[reply]

Hi, I just raised this issue, because I wanted to understand why this is said like that, rather than changing it now. Which I understand now. Are there any sources available then for this term to be used? Thanks. Mohsin (talk) 17:54, 14 October 2008 (UTC)[reply]

Found a source which says 'nominally Muslim' (The Rough Guide to Turkey - By Rosie Ayliffe, Marc Dubin, John Gawthrop, Terry Richardson), so which can be applied to the article then.[10] Mohsin (talk) 18:11, 14 October 2008 (UTC)[reply]

Let us all just come together and enjoy a great big Wikihug. Rather than continue an inane argument over the religious identity of Turkey, I propose that we just revert to this version. Hiberniantears (talk) 18:14, 13 October 2008 (UTC)[reply]

I would really love a Wikihug you know. That proposed revision will just do great you know :) Mohsin (talk) 21:45, 13 October 2008 (UTC)[reply]

• Hi, I have to admit that after I have created a section for both Language and Religion, the article has become a complete mess which may conflict with its FA status. The separation has resulted in continuos edit wars and adding of too much information, which based on the guidelines of Wikipedia, it should basically summarized in the main articles, and developed in the related article. I believe we should move all of this information, and just add the statistics and studies info back into demographics as the best solution for the article, because if you look at other articles there is no section based n Religion ie. India, Pakistan, and even Saudi Arabia (especially should be Turkey - secular). See: Wikipedia:WikiProject_Countries#Sections to how it should be really structured in order to meet the FA criteria. Mohsin (talk) 10:10, 19 October 2008 (UTC)[reply]

• Hi, i think your proposed version is not suitable for Turkey. I realized you removed most of the information about secularism in Turkey, half of the language section and lots of images without consensus. Please talk it before changing structure of the article. --Turkish Flame ^☎ 14:22, 19 October 2008 (UTC)[reply]

I have noticed this article has gone out of order with too many information, I have realized that much of this information can be developed in other related article, I have moved many of the information to Religion in Turkey, which by the looks of it makes complete sense of what I am trying to do here. Mainly everything should be summarized to the very best in the article, and developed further in the main articles. Please read through the guidelines of the structure of articles, please. Thanks. This must solve all problems. Mohsin (talk) 14:32, 19 October 2008 (UTC)[reply]

Plus, not only did I move much of the information of secularism, but also most of the religion information. My reason is given above. Secularism is summarized also, and so is religion info, and the studies. Based on Demographics. Mohsin (talk) 14:33, 19 October 2008 (UTC)[reply]

My only objection is for the grammar and typing mistakes inside your new paragraph. Vast amount of information has also been lost, I believe the "picture of a church" was simply too much a burden to bear, not to mention secularism and the decision by the ECHR on headscarves. Information on "what percentage of Muslims fast, pray, etc." does not belong to the Turkey article, it belongs to the Religion in Turkey and/or Islam in Turkey articles. Malkoçoğlu (talk) 16:15, 19 October 2008 (UTC)[reply]

I am sorry but who are you, that has suddenly appeared to this article? A member since 19/10 and have already edited so significantly to the article (mainly religion section). An obvious sock I suppose. Mohsin (talk) 16:30, 19 October 2008 (UTC)[reply]

I feel sad that the Turkey article has been taken hostage by a Bangladeshi religious zealot who brushes aside any detail which doesn't fit his vision/ideal of a "fully Islamic flavoured" Turkey. At least be more careful not to make so many grammar and typing mistakes, since you're a "native speaker" of the English language, aren't you? You don't know Turkey very well, yet you are keen on blocking the efforts of those who know their country better than you do, just for the sake of satisfying your stubborn obsession regarding Islamic issues. I hope Allah will give you a comfortable seaside mansion at Heaven (with 77 virgin and naked Barbies waiting for you at the beach) for turning the lives of Turkish Wikipedians into Hell. Malkoçoğlu (talk) 16:48, 19 October 2008 (UTC)[reply]

This article has received continuos and never-ending sock-puppetry from the User:Shuppiluliuma and has brought an illness to the article. I take your comments as an insult (or very funny, hell?). Wikipedia is a serious encyclopedia, and does not have time for idiot or aggressive editors. Mohsin (talk) 16:58, 19 October 2008 (UTC)[reply]

I think all of you need to hit puberty and actually come to some consensus. This is ridiculous. --Enzuru 19:31, 19 October 2008 (UTC)[reply]

• I have completely changed the Religion section by removing it (including Language) for the best solution of the article because it received continious edits, and moved it to Demographics - all based on statistics, which is outlined in the Wikipedia section guidance. I have again re-edited the section to make more sense, any feedback to this:

The population of Turkey is predominantly Muslim (99%),^[1] the majority are Sunni (75%) and a large minority are Alevi (15-25%).^[2] The remainder of the population are mainly Christians (mostly Greek Orthodox and Armenian Apostolic) and Jewish (96% Sephardi and 4% Ashkenazi.)^[3][4][5] Based on a nationwide survey in 2007 it found, 96.8% have a religion while, 3.2% were non-religious and atheists, and the more regularly practiced acts of worship is fasting (83%) and going to friday prayers (56%).^[6][7] According to a Pew Research Center report in 2002, 65% of the people in Turkey believe "religion is very important",Cite error: The <ref> tag has too many names (see the help page). while according to a Eurobarometer poll in 2005, 95% of Turkish citizens responded that they believe "there is a God".^[8] Turkey is officialy a secular republic, with no official state religion; the Turkish Constitution provides the freedom of religion and conscience, and does not represent a religion.^[9][10]

Honestly, who cares about details such as "83% fasting, 56% Friday prayers, 44% daily salah, etc..."? Such details don't belong in the Turkey article, they belong in the Islam in Turkey article, and have already been added there. You have deleted almost the entire Language and Religion sections, and left behind such insignificant details on the "percentage of fasting, praying Muslims"... By the way, it's spelled as "continuous". Malkoçoğlu (talk) 20:28, 19 October 2008 (UTC)[reply]

Yes, he is correct, that is way too detailed for this section. Also, remember, these statistics are usually skewed because many Muslims won't admit to not praying five times a day. I'm sure the source might mention that as well. --Enzuru 20:36, 19 October 2008 (UTC)[reply]

The section is based on Demographics of different types of topics, you might as well say who cares about the age groups of the country. These are key statistics of Religion. Plus you have provided negative comments and insults as seen above, have I ever done that? No. It is good to be civilized. Mohsin (talk) 21:25, 19 October 2008 (UTC)[reply]

I blew my top off too, I apologize for that. And actions speak louder than words, my friend, and people are infuriated by your actions moreso than my words, though I am quite infuriated at how Turkish Flame isn't really helping you out. And no, these are not key statistics of religion, how many articles, especially the featured ones, on nations, have this in their demographics section? I feel, and I'm sorry if you think this is wrong, you are trying to push something and prove to yourself or others that Turkey is well religious, as if you are trying to fight stereotypes of it. This might the very issue. --Enzuru 22:04, 19 October 2008 (UTC)[reply]

• I cannot accept this version! Where is secularism in Turkey!?!? Only one sentence!! What are you trying to do Tangomaan?? You are editing without consensus! This is a type of vandalism i think.. --Turkish Flame ^☎ 05:32, 20 October 2008 (UTC)[reply]

You know, Tangomaan does have the right idea here, in the other countries pages, secularism only is a few sentences. That has to deal with the government and how it separates from religion, not religion itself. We should follow the standard of other secular countries and their Wiki pages. --Enzuru 05:38, 20 October 2008 (UTC)[reply]

• Turkey's situation is different. Muslim majority secular country (not same as France etc.) And secularism is fundemental in Turkey. --Turkish Flame ^☎ 05:42, 20 October 2008 (UTC)[reply]

Whether the country is Muslim, Jewish, or Hindu in majority does not matter. Secularism works for all faiths, even if some interpret Islam (or Judaism, or Hinduism) against that. --Enzuru 05:50, 20 October 2008 (UTC)[reply]

Exactly that is my point right here, thank you for pointing that out Enzuru. It should be just summarized and that's it (moved large info to the main pages). Mohsin (talk) 12:49, 20 October 2008 (UTC)[reply]

As of those study information, it provides information of the 'Religiosity' of the people (which clearly makes sense for a Demographic section), which in other words is quite similar to saying the church attendances of the US or the UK which is suitable. Mohsin (talk) 13:02, 20 October 2008 (UTC)[reply]

• If you want to summarize the religion section, why did you add KONDA's poll results to Turkey?!? You removed nearly all of the secularism paragraph, (christianity and judaism also) but added unneccessary information. Is this means summarizing!?!? --Turkish Flame ^☎ 14:14, 20 October 2008 (UTC)[reply]

Yes that poll is also summarized (has it's own section on Religion, excluding the other questions asked such as, reading the qur'an, going to mosque, ritual prayers, and the wearing of the headscarf or the turban of which I have not included. All information is summarized, *the major religions*, *polls or studies* (relevant for Demographics) and *secularism*. Mohsin (talk) 16:06, 20 October 2008 (UTC)[reply]

Mohsin makes the point that prayer and fasting and so forth statistics are like church-going statistics in the US and UK, and I think that is a valid point. We should include them. This is following the patter of other country's articles. --Enzuru 17:04, 20 October 2008 (UTC)[reply]

• The first part of the demographics section is alright, because it states statistics related to those information, however the following paragraphs do not contain any sort of statistical informations, like for example the ethnic groups present in Turkey, and unsuitable information present in that section like for example: Due to a demand for an increased labor... blah blah. The structure is the main problem, they should be paragraphed very carefully into different topics, like for example first *population statistics*, *ethnic group statistics*, *education statistics*, *language statistics* and *religion statistics*, these all need to be fixed I think because it is a Featured Article. And the Culture and sports section is just all 'too much', I mean let's look at the second paragraph, full of so many names of actors, awards and sooo many names of films and such (nearly looks like the whole film industry), all of this information should have been developed in other related articles, it should basically be summarized. Commenting for the purpose of the Turkish article, because readers will not find the information very reliable because it is cluttered (including many images in Tourism and others). Please use other articles FA articles such as India and Pakistan (sections look good) as a guide. Mohsin (talk) 19:11, 20 October 2008 (UTC)[reply]

Here is a source for the 2008 estimates of ethnic groups in Turkey by the National Security Council (Turkey).^[11]

Thanks for turning Turkey into India, Pakistan and Bangladesh, we appreciate it :) Malkoçoğlu (talk) 03:58, 21 October 2008 (UTC)[reply]

He used them because they are Featured Articles, this is the correct way to go about doing the religion section in this article. Assuming good faith, that is part of Wikipedia. --Enzuru 04:01, 21 October 2008 (UTC)[reply]

I was referring to the good relations between India, Pakistan and Bangladesh :) By the way, I suggest we take Germany as a FA example and not India/Bangladesh/Pakistan, since Germany is Turkey's role model in many areas (Atatürk was influenced by the Weimar Republic) and Turkey is sort of the regional Germany. Malkoçoğlu (talk) 04:20, 21 October 2008 (UTC)[reply]

I am talking about how the article is structured and developed, regardless of the religion section or the information, the whole article needs improvement to how the information is presented. (and u r takin advantage of Wikipedia, using 2 usernames!) 08:51, 21 October 2008 (UTC)

Using Germany as an example may not be a bad idea, since those countries are more similiar ideology-wise than Turkey is with any of the South Asian nations. --Enzuru 17:44, 21 October 2008 (UTC)[reply]

OK, well just to say that Shup has just gone off the main concept of this subject. Leaving aside whatever articles (strictly lookin at any FA articles based on how it is structured), many parts of these sections have to be improved, or you will probably look to a reassessment of the article. Some parts of these informations need to be moved to other related articles. The main article is to give a some parts of the information but not all of it, the other parts can be developed into other articles (like for example the Army info, into Turkish Armed Forces or cultural info into, Culture of Turkey.) Mohsin (talk) 18:13, 21 October 2008 (UTC)[reply]

• Use images could be improved, like for example in the tourism section maybe 3-4 images enough, and relevant images, what does attract people to Turkey? The history. Century-old mosques or religious sites, historical buildings, the whirling divershes etc. (Hagia Sophia or a pic of whirling dervishes could be good), the image of the Ankara building looks odd, and so is the House of Virgin Mary.

Mohsin (talk) 15:57, 22 October 2008 (UTC)[reply]

• Yes 4 images are enough in tourism section, we have to remove 2 images (ankara armada tower image and izmir cafes image are excess). But Whirling dervishes image is not suitable for tourism section. Because 22.2 million people don't come Turkey for seeing dervishes. Also, Hagia Sophia image can be used in demographics section instead of Selimiye Mosque image. --Turkish Flame ^☎ 16:18, 22 October 2008 (UTC)[reply]

Ok, but just to say when there are advertisements of attracting tourism in Turkey, they mainly do show the whirling dervishes and historical buildings and mosques. The dervishes is part of that tourism attraction isn't it? I mean you got the buildings mainly, but also the cultural aspects should be shown, and that is the dervishes I suggest. The Hagia Sophia is now a museum (not a church or a mosque anymore), and is one of the most visited places in the country, which could relate to tourism. Mohsin (talk) 16:28, 22 October 2008 (UTC)[reply]

• But advertisements are made by Culture and Tourism Ministry of Turkey and the dervishes is part of culture, not tourism. --Turkish Flame ^☎ 16:48, 22 October 2008 (UTC)[reply]

Yes there was another image of dervishes in the culture section before, that image could go in that section then, and there aren't many cultural images present in that section (mainly of famous people). Mohsin (talk) 18:35, 22 October 2008 (UTC)[reply]

• Dervishes are part of Mevlevi, (since 1500s) and it is part of Ottoman culture, not modern Turkey. --Turkish Flame ^☎ 18:48, 22 October 2008 (UTC)[reply]

Touristic interests transcend, and my be guided by -or ignore- matters of philosophy and ideology. Wanting any particular aspect to be viewed rigidly in only one context (Culture vs Tourism) may serve some version of truth- but is not the purpose of the article. Dervishes perform a spectacle that regularly factors into the agenda of tourists- independent of judgments of right or wrong... or 'should's. Just as the beaches and architecture are targets of tourist consumption- so are Dervish performances.Mavigogun (talk) 05:49, 23 October 2008 (UTC)[reply]

Taking Germany as an example is a better idea than taking India etc. but it still doesn't fit perfectly. I just wanted to note it. I assume we all know that one of the main problems of Turkey is its conflict between the East and the West. For example, Huntington would say that Turkey should give up imitating the Western civilization and become the leader of, you say, Middle Eastern/Islamic civilization because it has the means and tradition to do so. Of course, it is just sidekick information to our main discussions. Whatever, people just say something then they don't materialize it. Let's assume that we accepted to reshape some parts in accordance with the Germany article, which parts will be reshaped? Deliogul (talk) 21:53, 29 October 2008 (UTC)[reply]

There are a number of extraneous and redundant illustrations- such as pictures of the Council of Europe chamber, Turkish/EU Flag, multiple Istanbul financial districts, multiple pedestrian commerce centers. Selective editing is warranted.Mavigogun (talk) 06:02, 23 October 2008 (UTC)[reply]

Just can't wait to see how the article will be gangbanged starting from October 26, an authentic Dallywood production is what I expect, with dancing Dervishes etc... :) 88.255.157.230 (talk) 09:38, 23 October 2008 (UTC)[reply]

A Dallywood production ??? Now I speak for everyone else and say, why would the dervishes relate to a South Asian Film Industry? A Sufi belief or tradition in Turkey! They are part of the Turkey, please do not add any un-constructive comments to the talk page please, you should respect different cultures and traditions present around the world or in your region. Thank you! Mohsin (talk) 10:53, 23 October 2008 (UTC)[reply]

Mavigogun makes a good point. One of the reasons the article is locked down is for you guys to cool your jets a bit. Lengthy blocks will be handed out to both of you if this just opens up into a big edit war again. Might I suggest reverting to the version the article was in when it achieved FA status, and then updating it with current events (Deep State issues, political stability, Iraq policy, Operation Orchard, Georgia/Caucasus, economic stability, etc). I believe this version is right around where the article was when it was promoted. Hiberniantears (talk) 15:12, 23 October 2008 (UTC)[reply]

OK i'll agree to that version, looks more clean and FA lookin. May I also suggest that the demographic-religion info should be replaced on top of that with the agreed version at the top, and that the large info of secularism be moved to the politics section. Bye. Mohsin (talk) 16:29, 23 October 2008 (UTC)[reply]

I somehow thought you might say that. I think the only thing that should be done with the FA version is to update it with things that have happened since. I got all the admins together and we took a bet that you two turkeys couldn't even agree on what has happened in Turkey since 2007. Considering that religious people have been in Turkey since its inception, and since this article managed to make FA status back in 2007 without the currently proposed tinkering, a wise man would deduce that it is not the most urgent thing this article need. Do not get into a pointless edit war over the presentation of religion, or for that matter the best tourism pictures. Wikipedia is not where the fate and identity of nations is decided (although this is currently expected as a new feature in late 2009). The religion version at top doesn't appear to be agreed. Steer away from it right now, since the only thing down that road is a block. Hiberniantears (talk) 18:28, 23 October 2008 (UTC)[reply]

Do you mean the controversies of the government since 2007? Well I did however add information of Abdullah Gul's presidency as being controversial due to being the first president with an Islamist background (and wife wearing hijab) and the headscarf ban triggering social concerns, but however was removed latter, and the other not agreed upon. (I have added the full secularism info to the politics section at the end at the proposed, and also in the demographic.) Mohsin (talk) 19:49, 23 October 2008 (UTC)[reply]

My other concern is how does Wikipedia deal with users who completely disagree with factual events (based on neutral info and on facts and sources eg. controversies at top) Even though you try to have a discussion or persuade them and still won't agree and keep on reverting?Mohsin (talk) 19:59, 23 October 2008 (UTC)[reply]

• That version is too short and imageless. --81.214.118.76 (talk) 17:02, 23 October 2008 (UTC)[reply]

Yo mama didn't think so. Hiberniantears (talk) 18:28, 23 October 2008 (UTC)[reply]

Well from the earlier version you mentioned, from that I have re-edited the section by adding images to it, and updating some parts of the article. See User:Tangomaan/sandbox/Turkey test, and does it look OK or not (just trying to help out). The current version is over 110mb, the edited one is 90mb which is better. (by the way nicely said :)). Mohsin (talk) 19:04, 23 October 2008 (UTC)[reply]

That actually looks pretty good... Nicely done. Hiberniantears (talk) 19:20, 23 October 2008 (UTC)[reply]

I made the switch. If established editors (i.e. not Shup socks) want me to revert for the time being, I'll be happy to do so. Also, any admin reading this should feel free to revert me on your own in the meantime. I just wanted to get this version in the history. Hiberniantears (talk) 20:12, 23 October 2008 (UTC)[reply]

• The article looks better now, not too many images or less but in the middle, and the same for information, no such further development of any sections is needed or in some could be updated (gov & pol). The Sports section is just perfect and enough and so is Culture, but the Sports in Turkey is lacking heaps of information, this could be developed further over there. The demographics is alright and summed up very well, no such development required for the religions or secularism (available in Gov.), but I think the previous image that was there was even better, because it views it from a further angle across the world and showing exactly where it is in the world. Mohsin (talk) 09:42, 25 October 2008 (UTC)[reply]

• Turkey isn't as large as Russia. The current image is selected with a consensus. --Turkish Flame ^☎ 09:46, 25 October 2008 (UTC)[reply]

Consensus huh? OK then. I just find it a bit too large, and maybe the grey background could be given with a bit of that yellow as a suggestion (too red). Mohsin (talk) 09:50, 25 October 2008 (UTC)[reply]

Too bad you guys can't do to the financial markets what you manage to do to the size of this article. Just thought the following statistics are interesting, showing the version that was in place prior to my revert, my revert to the 2007-based version, Turkish Flame's first changes after the block (hi buddy), and Tangomaan's latest.

• 10:24, October 19, 2008 Jd2718 (Talk | contribs | block) (113,356 bytes)

• 16:08, October 23, 2008 Hiberniantears (Talk | contribs | block) (92,482 bytes)

• 04:07, October 25, 2008 Turkish Flame (Talk | contribs | block) m (95,488 bytes)

• 11:33, October 25, 2008 Tangomaan (Talk | contribs | block) m (97,055 bytes)

With the Shup stuff, this is expected. At the same time, Tangomaan, I went back to the 2007 FA version largely to help get the article size under control. Just some food for thought. Hiberniantears (talk) 16:37, 25 October 2008 (UTC)[reply]

Yo you sure thats correct? man I only reduce things rather than adding things, like for example removing excessive images and too many information. Didn't realise that, thanks for that. Mohsin (talk) 19:06, 25 October 2008 (UTC)[reply]

Oh that edit was high, because I had to update the demographic section with the correct 2007 data and other informations were missing like for example population density or life expectancy etc., I'll try to keep it 'on the low' the next time :) Mohsin (talk) 20:01, 25 October 2008 (UTC)[reply]

Here's the highest though: 13:04, 19 October 2008 Malkoçoğlu (Talk | contribs) m (120,913 bytes) - let's hope it doesn't reach there again. Mohsin (talk) 21:51, 25 October 2008 (UTC)[reply]

• I have inserted a new template of city populations to the demographic section to show summarize the city pop. Seeing other FA articles which have these, I thought why not add it as well to make the article better. I have also re-arranged the section to make into three paragraphs and for easy reading, and so images can fit. If any mistakes or changes needed please go ahead, thanks. Mohsin (talk) 14:00, 26 October 2008 (UTC)[reply]