Talk:Enrique Tarrio

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We should be working to replace the Ballotpedia citations, no? ---Another Believer _(Talk) 20:14, 1 October 2020 (UTC)[reply]

Another Believer, yes, as a source Ballotpedia may be generally reliable (it has been discussed at WP:RS/N), but it it used here to cite Tarrio talking about himself, which makes it a primary source, use of which should be minimal. Vexations (talk) 10:48, 2 October 2020 (UTC)[reply]

Vexations, What about the current list of "political and non-political figures as inspirations for both his political and personal values"? ---Another Believer _(Talk) 21:09, 2 October 2020 (UTC)[reply]

Another Believer, I don't think that list is due. Perhaps we could mention that citing Pat Buchanan's book, The Death of the West as a favorite is a reference to an insider joke by Gavin McInnes about the Proud Boys sitting in their club, drinking and smoking cigars while "discussing" books. Everything is always some sort of joke with these people, including electing a black first-generation immigrant as their leader. Vexations (talk) 21:30, 2 October 2020 (UTC)[reply]

There are a number of sources that have mentioned Tarrio's business(es) and suggested that he has a business(es) that provide(s) security services. Does anyone here have a reliable source that identifies those businesses? I'm especially interested in the security/surveillance business that is opaquely referred to in some sources.

I have collected some basic biographical information from unusable sources like LinkedIn, Yelp, Twitter and some business databases, and would like to find reliable sources instead. Most sources that found just repeat what he writes about himself on ballotpedia or LinkedIn, without any indications of fact-checking. Claims about his education could use some sources as well. — Preceding unsigned comment added by Vexations (talk • contribs) 16:32, 2 October 2020 (UTC)[reply]

Wikipedia's BLP of Enrique Tarrio presently lists 19 unique references. Five of those cite the Miami New Times, which is obviously being treated here as a reliable source. On December 10, 2018, the Miami New Times referred to Tarrio as a "business owner" who ran a poultry farm in North Florida and "has started two businesses, one installing security equipment and the other using GPS tracking for businesses." NedFausa (talk) 16:58, 4 October 2020 (UTC)[reply]

NedFausa, I am fairly confident that I know the name of both companies, the security one and the GPS business, but the sources that call him a businessman do not mention those explicitly. Not sure what to do here, I don't think we commonly list all the non-notable businesses that the subject of an article owns.The NYT has mentioned his T-shirt business, an opaque reference to an online outlet that sells Proud Boys paraphernalia. That's three businesses. Vexations (talk) 17:12, 4 October 2020 (UTC)[reply]

Vexations: It is not necessary to name any of his businesses. Our existing references suffice to identify him as a businessman and entrepreneur. NedFausa (talk) 17:22, 4 October 2020 (UTC)[reply]

NedFausa, and then there's ProudBoys LLC, which he co-founded with Joshua Hall one of the Proud Boys' elders. That makes four. Vexations (talk) 17:37, 4 October 2020 (UTC)[reply]

There's currently a non-free image being used in the infobox, but also an image at Wikimedia Commons. Which should be used? ---Another Believer _(Talk) 19:10, 4 October 2020 (UTC)[reply]

Hmmm. That one seems to have just been uploaded. The existing Fair use image and the new commons image seem to be either/or material for the info box. Not sure if one is better than the other. As the article grows, it may be more helpful to add a second image of the subject while at an event with the Proud Boys, related to his primary notability. I'll do a quick search. Cedar777 (talk) 20:27, 4 October 2020 (UTC)[reply]

Sorry, would you be able to link to that Wikimedia Commons item? Using copyrighted images on Wikipedia requires a fair use declaration, which includes if the content can be replaced with a non-copyrighted item, so if appropriate, we should use the Commons one. ItsPugle (please ping on reply) 01:03, 5 October 2020 (UTC)[reply]

ItsPugle, File:Enrique Tarrio - International Chairman Proud Boys.jpg ---Another Believer _(Talk) 02:09, 5 October 2020 (UTC)[reply]

@Another Believer: Oh yeah, we should most definitely be using that image instead of the non-free one. I'll update the article, and a bot will go through and tag (then delete) the non-free image unless it's added to another article with a free use rationale. ItsPugle (please ping on reply) 02:19, 5 October 2020 (UTC)[reply]

ItsPugle, Thanks! ---Another Believer _(Talk) 02:21, 5 October 2020 (UTC)[reply]

@Another Believer: No worries, thanks for being awesome and bringing this up :) ItsPugle (please ping on reply) 02:26, 5 October 2020 (UTC)[reply]

ItsPugle, Actually, looks like the image at Commons has been nominated for deletion. Should we swap back before the fair use image is deleted, too? ---Another Believer _(Talk) 11:48, 5 October 2020 (UTC)[reply]

@Another Believer: Good catch! I think the best thing to do is keep the current image from Commons (the photographer may get the legal formalities done before it's deleted). If it does get deleted from Commons before the photographer gives us permission though, we may have to revert back to the non-free image. Depending on the timeline, if the file is deleted, we can re-download it from here. ItsPugle (please ping on reply) 02:17, 6 October 2020 (UTC)[reply]

Resolved

Do editors find the image of the Roger Stone T-shirt helpful? Anyone can print text on a shirt, so how do we know the shirt was made by Tarrio's company, as the caption suggests? ---Another Believer _(Talk) 11:55, 5 October 2020 (UTC)[reply]

I Removed it as it is not clear if the shirt was produced by Tarrio’s company. Despite a search for Creative Commons images of the subject - this was the only (potentially) related content I could locate. Perhaps additional images will become available in time.

Thanks for removing. ---Another Believer _(Talk) 14:25, 5 October 2020 (UTC)[reply]

I think the image is fine. Here's the source for Tarrio being the maker of the shirt.[1] -- Kendrick7^talk 00:11, 6 October 2020 (UTC)[reply]

The correct designation for "Latinos For Trump" is either astroturfing or Front organization. — Preceding unsigned comment added by 2601:2c0:c300:b7:4d78:cd7e:fe2f:a196 (talk • contribs)

No evidence: please provide some reliable sources, as existing sources say national grass-roots organization unaffiliated with the Trump campaign. ItsPugle (please ping on reply) 01:08, 5 October 2020 (UTC)[reply]

Can we find some non-primary sources that confirm that Tarrio is the author of the "Demand President Trump label Antifa a domestic terrorist organization" petition that failed to gather 100,000 votes but inspired resolution 279? Not sure if this would even be due (see [2]), but it is an aspect of the relationship between Tarrio and Ted Cruz that might be worth exploring. Vexations (talk) 21:03, 4 October 2020 (UTC)[reply]

Since that resolution hasn't even gone before the Senate yet and Antifa is not explicitly relevant to Tarrio personally, I think including that (especially without sources, as you've highlighted) is undue. If the resolution is passed and secondary sources link Tarrio personally to the resolution, I think a sentence on it would be fine, but it really shouldn't be until such time that we include it. ItsPugle (please ping on reply) 01:12, 5 October 2020 (UTC)[reply]

The following Wikimedia Commons file used on this page or its Wikidata item has been nominated for deletion:

• Enrique Tarrio - International Chairman Proud Boys.jpg

Participate in the deletion discussion at the nomination page. —Community Tech bot (talk) 05:38, 5 October 2020 (UTC)[reply]

This is probably similar to the previous one, but isn't the term neo-fascist being diluted by using it for a person of color? It seems to be an extremely liberal usage of the term. It starts to have no meaning when you throw it around like that. Even far-right is a bit extreme. I'm not sure if this is an example of the goalposts being moved. It's getting absurd. Lighthead ^þ 18:49, 6 October 2020 (UTC)[reply]

To clarify, the term neo-fascist appears only once in this BLP, where it describes the organization of which Enrique Tarrio is chairman. We do not call Tarrio himself neo-fascist. NedFausa (talk) 18:55, 6 October 2020 (UTC)[reply]

Lighthead, Even far-right is a bit extreme are you proposing that we use another term? Which? Do we have sources to support that? Vexations (talk) 19:22, 6 October 2020 (UTC)[reply]

What is meant by far-right or neo-fascist? Is the implication, white nationalism? Lighthead ^þ 19:38, 6 October 2020 (UTC)[reply]

Lighthead, we use the neo-fascist only in the context of "chairman of the far-right, neo-fascist organization Proud Boys" and use the exact same term to describe the Proud Boys in the article on them. Unless that is overturned by consensus, we ought to use the same term here. The term far-right is used in a quote: "freewheeling online emporium for far-right merch" which can't edit to say something else and to also describe far-right commentator Milo Yiannopoulos, where the same thing is true as for Proud Boys. If we use that therm in the article on Yiannopolous, we use it here too. Now, unless you are going to to propose a term that is used by reliable sources, I think we can close this thread as not actionable. Vexations (talk) 19:57, 6 October 2020 (UTC)[reply]

I don't think that's valid reasoning, just for the sake of consistency. Is this article part of some consortium of articles? Lighthead ^þ 20:04, 6 October 2020 (UTC)[reply]

Lighthead, it's consensus, not consistency for consistency's sake. And you still haven't proposed something we can actually do. Vexations (talk) 20:23, 6 October 2020 (UTC)[reply]

My proposal is to remove the far-right and neo-fascist designations, and call it simply right-wing. Here in the U.S., neo-fascist is essentially a white nationalist that would have no one other than a white person in their organization. The picture makes it evident that he is assuredly not white. The average person sees the term 'neo-fascist,' looks at the picture, and it becomes extremely obvious that Wikipedia has a left-wing bias. Wikipedia is, then, seen as less credible. I can assure you that, at the very least, Slate is a left-wing magazine, or website. It might not be that way in Europe, but it certainly is here. It's not even center-left, it's squarely left-wing. Lighthead ^þ 20:35, 6 October 2020 (UTC)[reply]

Lighthead, we're English, not American Wikipedia. As for what passes as left-wing in America, that is indeed quite subjective, and it would be wonderful, IMO if we could replace left- and right-wing with terms that actually mean something and help our readers understand. I'm strongly opposed to right-wing or right-leaning (something the Proud Boys use themselves). I wouldn't be opposed to using more precise terminology though: anti-immigration, pro-gun, pro drugs, violent, misogynistic, aggressively patriotic, islamophobic, transphobic and secretive about who their members are. Vexations (talk) 21:41, 6 October 2020 (UTC)[reply]

I have a source for right-wing if you want to take a look at it, Vexations. It's about as neutral as you can find with a regular search engine. It wasn't extremely easy to find since everything is political nowadays, but here it is: [3] Tell me if you think it's good. Lighthead ^þ 00:19, 7 October 2020 (UTC)[reply]

Lighthead, I think this comment The Four Deuces is relevant. By the way, we do not have just news media referring to them as far-right and fascists, we do have academic books and journals, too. Davide King (talk) 12:09, 7 October 2020 (UTC)[reply]

I oppose replacing far-right and neo-fascist with right-wing. This BLP is an offshoot of Proud Boys. Absent his chairmanship of that organization, Enrique Tarrio would fail Wikipedia:Notability. Circumventing accord at Proud Boys to designate that organization as far-right and neo-fascist would violate Wikipedia:Consensus, which readily transfers and applies to this BLP. NedFausa (talk) 00:50, 7 October 2020 (UTC)[reply]

I provided a legitimate source. It provides in an unbiased way the notion that the Proudboys are right-wing. It's a local news agency, so there's no way that they could be biased. Lighthead ^þ 17:09, 7 October 2020 (UTC)[reply]