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This is an old revision of this page, as edited by Sb2001 (talk | contribs) at 00:36, 1 April 2019 (→‎Survey and discussion: support). The present address (URL) is a permanent link to this revision, which may differ significantly from the current revision.

Title

I was surprised today to find this article at Chairman. Is there an interest in holding another RM, and if so, what's the best suggestion? The most obvious alternatives would be Chair (officer), Chair (position), and Chairperson.

It seems the article was moved from Chairman to Chairperson in 2006, then moved back to Chairman in 2008 after an RM. See Talk:Chairman/Archive 1#Requested move to "Chairman". There was another RM in 2015 to move it away from Chairman, which failed to gain consensus. See Talk:Chairman/Archive 2#Requested move 17 February 2015. SarahSV (talk) 00:28, 19 March 2019 (UTC)[reply]

I would support this, but I've honestly given up on this... EvergreenFir (talk) 01:40, 19 March 2019 (UTC)[reply]
I think we should give it another try, because it just seems odd to use this title in 2019. MOS:GNL recommends: "Use gender-neutral language where this can be done with clarity and precision." Chair (position) could be confused with a professorial chair, so probably Chair (officer) or Chairperson should be the options to suggest. SarahSV (talk) 02:08, 19 March 2019 (UTC)[reply]
It's old, but FWIW... User:EvergreenFir/sandbox2#Chair. EvergreenFir (talk) 02:12, 19 March 2019 (UTC)[reply]
That's very helpful, thank you. SarahSV (talk) 02:13, 19 March 2019 (UTC)[reply]

Requested move 22 March 2019

Chairman → Chair (officer) – Lots of readers will feel excluded by the current title. Common alternatives are Chair (officer) and Chairperson. Please state your preference when commenting. A few sources:

  1. Chicago Manual of Style, 17th edition, 2017, 5.250, p. 318: "chair; chairman; chairwoman; chairperson. Chair is widely regarded as the best gender-neutral choice. Since the mid-seventeenth century, chair has referred to an office of authority."
  2. European Union. The EU's Interinstitutional style guide and English Style Guide (26 February 2019, 15.1) both say: "gender-neutral language is nowadays preferred wherever possible. In practice, gender-neutral drafting means two things [including] avoiding nouns that appear to assume that a man rather than a woman will perform a particular role: ‘chairman’ is the most obvious example."
  3. WP:MOS#Gender-neutral language: "Use gender-neutral language where this can be done with clarity and precision." SarahSV (talk) 22:25, 22 March 2019 (UTC) --Relisting. SITH (talk) 15:45, 30 March 2019 (UTC)[reply]

Survey and discussion

Feel free to state your position on the renaming proposal by beginning a new line in this subsection with *'''Support''' or *'''Oppose''', then sign your comment with ~~~~. Since polling is not a substitute for discussion, please explain your reasons, taking into account Wikipedia's policy on article titles.
  • Support as above. Prefer Chair (officer). Second choice: Chairperson. SarahSV (talk) 22:26, 22 March 2019 (UTC)[reply]
  • Oppose as unnatural, support Chairperson per WP:NATURAL In ictu oculi (talk) 22:39, 22 March 2019 (UTC)[reply]
  • Comment: It doesn't matter whether readers "will feel excluded"; the term tends to not apply to them. What does matter is the usage of the gender-neutral terms, which have increasingly been adopted, whether to avoid "chairwoman" or otherwise. I feel "chair" with some disambiguative term to be the best option here, as "chairperson" isn't as common. ONR (talk) 02:59, 23 March 2019 (UTC)[reply]
  • Oppose all per the Terminology section of the article itself which provides ample evidence that "chair" and "chairperson" are both rare forms, and often discouraged as poor English. This is a case where the suggested move fails WP:MOS#Gender-neutral language more than the current title does because chair/chairperson fails both "clarity and precision". The lead should reflect that "chairman" is the most common usage for both men and women, and that occasionally "chairwoman" is used for women in the position, and chair/chairperson are exceedingly rare. -- Netoholic @ 04:32, 23 March 2019 (UTC)[reply]
  • Oppose all as per Netoholic. "-man" in this context is common gender as it has been for the last thousand years or so. BTW, at the moment quoting an EU guide to how English should be used is rather like waving a red rag in front of a charging bull! Martin of Sheffield (talk) 21:02, 23 March 2019 (UTC)[reply]
  • Oppose all as per 2 previous editors. We are supposed to inform about well-known, much-used words and facts, not propagate change. "All men are created equal" includes women, girls and boys. Everyone knows that. --SergeWoodzing (talk) 21:53, 23 March 2019 (UTC)[reply]
  • Support those who claim the usage is "rare" should try googling the exact phrase "chair of the committee". It is, as just one example, standard usage for the committees of the UK parliament (e.g. [1]). In my experience, "chairman" is now the rare usage. The argument that "-man" is common gender simply does not reflect modern English – language changes. (The same argument used to be used about "brothers" or "brethren" including women in religious language, but modern translations, services and hymns have abandoned this practice.) As for "all men are created equal", when first used, it certainly did not mean that either women or African slaves were equal, so it's a clear example of why "man" is now inappropriate, not an argument as to why we should still use it in this sense. Peter coxhead (talk) 22:07, 23 March 2019 (UTC)[reply]
I do not believe our personal opinions about past or present meanings are what we are supposed to go by. Article titles at Wikipedia adhere to Wikipedia guidelines. --SergeWoodzing (talk) 22:16, 23 March 2019 (UTC)[reply]
  • Oppose per others above. Assuming that "chairman" is still the dominant designation of people exercising this role (and I strongly suspect that it is), I think it deserves its own article. Likewise, the "chair" article reflects the piece of furniture and offers a dab page for other uses. The close variant "chairwoman" currently redirects to "chairman". The article title need not imply that it is the preferred term, just that it is the most common. The "chairman" article can (and does) discuss alternative terms, and this is the best place to do it. Jmar67 (talk) 22:48, 23 March 2019 (UTC)[reply]
It's not clear how true that assumption is. It's difficult to use searches because of the need for context. Here's one Google ngram. ("Chair" is even more common if you switch to American English.) Peter coxhead (talk) 23:03, 23 March 2019 (UTC)[reply]
Have to be really careful with things like this, you can try a number of phrases and pick the one that seems to present your point - here's one based using a slightly different phrase which points the other way. Even using your ngram, the results change in favor of "chairman" if you just turn on "case-insensitive". Not saying a fairly worded Ngram can't be found, just that I don't think its that easy. -- Netoholic @ 03:17, 24 March 2019 (UTC)[reply]
  • Comment For those not aware of it, this issue was previously addressed in 3 separate RM initiatives for this article. See the "Title" discussion, which triggered this one. Jmar67 (talk) 00:11, 24 March 2019 (UTC)[reply]
  • Support Chair (officer) on the basis of the sources provided and my own sense as a native English speaker that "chair" is the most common word for this concept. To those who oppose, could you provide any sources indicating that "chairman" is more common or recommended by style guides nowadays? Otherwise your arguments seem weak compared to SV's argument, which is based on reliable sources. —Granger (talk · contribs) 00:54, 24 March 2019 (UTC)[reply]
  • Support - Chair appears to me to have become the neutral/neuter form of the term. While NGrams are helpful, they only go up to 2008, so it's 10 years out of date. Further, the trajectory of "chairman" is steeply negative (another ngram above: chair of).
Moreover, multiple manuals of style note that Chair is acceptable or preferred:
Yes, the Variations section in the article is both very selective (e.g. only one of the most reactionary UK newsapapers) and out-of-date. These manuals should be included in the discussion at that point in the article. Peter coxhead (talk) 10:08, 24 March 2019 (UTC)[reply]
(Slightly OT) Just out of interest, why do people prefer the French derived masculine "-person" to the Anglo-Saxon common gender "-man"? You really ought to discuss charperson/chairpersonne as a problem. Martin of Sheffield (talk) 16:54, 24 March 2019 (UTC)[reply]
@Martin of Sheffield: because we aren't writing in either French or Anglo-Saxon, so how the words were originally used in these languages are of no relevance to how they are used in modern English, in which "-person" is now regarded by speakers as gender neutral, whereas "-man" is not. Peter coxhead (talk) 17:03, 24 March 2019 (UTC)[reply]
You're exhibiting a gender bias by selecting only articles about women to draw your conclusion. This topic is not gender-restricted, and so your comparisons should not be either. It seems more like you're voting to WP:RIGHTGREATWRONGS, not follow our titling guidelines. -- Netoholic @ 18:09, 24 March 2019 (UTC)[reply]
I was investigating the claim that chairman is gender neutral. Getting an idea of how accepted and common it is to use the term to refer to women is, I think, a reasonable way to do that. WanderingWanda (they/them) (t/c) 00:02, 25 March 2019 (UTC)[reply]
  • Alternative proposal While there may be eventual consensus to move, it is certainly conceivable that there will be no consensus on the target. One compromise solution might be to move to "Chair (role)" and restructure the article to focus on the function itself rather than the person. The article can then describe, in a neutral manner, the various terms designating the person. Jmar67 (talk) 22:38, 24 March 2019 (UTC)[reply]
    • Another alternative proposal: "Chairman and chairwoman" (WP:AND: Where possible, use a title covering all cases: for example, Endianness covers the concepts "big-endian" and "little-endian". Where no reasonable overarching title is available, it is permissible to construct an article title using "and", as in Promotion and relegation, Balkline and straight rail, Hellmann's and Best Foods) WanderingWanda (they/them) (t/c) 16:02, 25 March 2019 (UTC)[reply]
    • One more alternate proposal: splitting the article in two, one for corporate chairs and one for government chairs. Possible titles for the former: "Board chair", "Chair of the board", "Chair (business)". And for the latter: "Committee chair", "Chair of the committee", "Chair (government)". WanderingWanda (they/them) (t/c) 17:43, 25 March 2019 (UTC)[reply]
      • President does that, but I don't see a reason to do it here. Jmar67 (talk) 03:27, 26 March 2019 (UTC)[reply]
        • Here's my reasoning: 1. a chair of a government committee strikes me as a very different thing from a chair of a corporate board, so it feels a little dubious to bundle them together into one article. 2. My understanding is that corporate chairs usually preside over a "board" and government chairs a "committee", which means we could go with, say, "Board chair" and "Committee chair" for the titles. Those two titles are a. gender neutral and b. don't need any parenthetical statements, and so they conform better both WP:NATURAL and MOS:GNL. Also, I don't think either title could be confused with the academic title which was discussed below. WanderingWanda (they/them) (t/c) 04:00, 26 March 2019 (UTC)[reply]
          • I would prefer "Chairperson" to "Chairman or chairwoman" if for no other reason than that it's shorter. Also, I'm not sure about separating "Board Chair" and "Committee Chair" as those roles are quite similar: on both Boards and Committees, the primary function of a Chair is to preside over a meeting of a deliberative body that decides things by meeting and voting (whether that body is a government committee, a corporate board of directors, a school committee, or whatever). Having a "Chair", and common aspects of a Chair (that the chair has the power to call meetings to order and adjourn them; that the chair sets the agenda; that the chair generally doesn't vote except to break a tie) all stem (I believe) from the popularity of Robert's Rules of Order for parliamentary procedure. So in my view, this use of Chair (board/committee) is one thing, whereas the academic professorship position (or "department chair") is actually a separate type of chair, and then the furniture is something else altogether :-). Note I've updated my !vote per the discussion here. It seems like "Chair (role)" and "Chairperson" may be the "finalists" here? Leviv ich 20:34, 26 March 2019 (UTC)[reply]
  • Support:
    1. "Chair (position)" (not a good choice per discussion below due to confusion with academic chair)
    2. "Chair (role)" ("Chairperson" is better for reasons stated in WP:NATURAL)
    3. "Chair of the Board" ("Board Chair" suggestion above is shorter and better) or
    4. "Chairperson" <-- Final answer
...in that order. The -man suffix is deprecated in the English language–don't need Google Ngrams to know that, just need to have been alive in the 21 century. "Chair (officer)" isn't the best DAB because, at least in the United States, the Chair of the Board of Directors of a company or organization is not an Officer of the organization (that includes other positions like President, Treasurer, etc., but not Chair or Vice Chair, or Board Member, who are distinct from Officers). So, that might be confusing, and I would suggest a different DAB like "position" or "role". "Chair of the Board" identifies the position/role fairly well. "Chairperson" is better than the current "chairman", but I think is not as common as the simple "chair", as in "Board Chair" or "Chair of the Board of Directors". Leviv ich 01:54, 25 March 2019 (UTC)[reply]
  • "Chair (position)" seems to include the meaning of a "professorship", which is different from the "chairman" role as a presiding official. A professor is simply occupying a "chair" with a particular designation, implying that he/she is being paid from an endowment. Jmar67 (talk) 15:15, 25 March 2019 (UTC)[reply]
  • After reviewing the continuing discussion here, I've come around to Chairperson being the best choice. "Chairperson" is better than "Chairman" for MOS:GNL reasons, and because the -man suffix is rapidly declining in usage in favor of gender neutral language (police officer, firefighter, etc.). "Chairperson" is better than "Chair (whatever)" for the reasons given in WP:NATURAL. Going with the common gender-neutral name "Chair" breeds confusion with all the other things with the same name, and any disambiguator we choose–"Chair (officer)", "Chair (position)", "Chair (role)"–will have some problems. We can avoid having to decide "what the second word should be" by going with "Chairperson". Our reader will know what we mean when we say "Chairperson", and when they type in "chair" it'll pop up as one of the suggestions. It's the best choice not because it's the most common form of the term, but because all the other options are worse for one reason or another. Leviv ich 05:51, 30 March 2019 (UTC)[reply]
  • Oppose - Political correctness gone wild here. I still see and hear chairman more than anything else, even when referring to women. If it ever were to move it would more along the lines of "chairperson," but even that is a bit strange. Fyunck(click) (talk) 05:07, 25 March 2019 (UTC)[reply]
  • Support: Primary argument against appears to be "I don't like it. Even arguments about gender neutral versions are along these lines. A google search of "Chairperson" results in 40,800,000 results for me. That hardly appears archaic. A search of google with chair role description brings up many references to chairperson or chair generically. Even the Wikimedia Foundation uses the phrase "Chair". "Chair (role)" or "Chairperson" appear to be good compromises. A compromise for the WP:IDONTLIKEIT people concerned gender erasure could be including a discussion about the use of chairperson vs. chairman, for which there are ample sources that meet WP's standards credibility standards. --LauraHale (talk) 19:13, 26 March 2019 (UTC)[reply]
    Unfortunately WP:IDONTLIKEIT cuts both ways. What to one person seems like an innocent change in the language is to another forced politics and linguistic corruption. Conversely to one the natural form of English they have been speaking for 60 years is seen by others as an oppressive attempt to demean all womankind. Martin of Sheffield (talk) 22:01, 26 March 2019 (UTC)[reply]
  • Oppose. Completely unnecessary. Still the common name in ordinary speech. -- Necrothesp (talk) 16:26, 27 March 2019 (UTC)[reply]
Evidence? Or just your opinion? Peter coxhead (talk) 16:51, 27 March 2019 (UTC)[reply]
Chairman is probably more commonly used than any of the proposed alternatives. The Oxford English dictionary says that while the gender-neutral terms chair and chairperson are accepted in standard English, they're still less common than chairman.
...Hold on, Wanda, whose side are you on? Well, here's the thing: the vast majority of committee and board chairs are men. So the fact that chairman is the more popular term does not mean that it is the most appropriate term for an article that is supposed to encompass both men and women. Wikipedia is supposed to be neutral, and that means we should be gender-neutral. Sometimes the most appropriate, inclusive, gender-neutral title for an article is going to be a term that's somewhat less popular than another more biased and gendered term. According to Google ngrams, fireman is more common than firefighter, and yet the Wiki article is titled firefighter. Policeman is more common than police officer but we go with police officer. It's true that we shouldn't just make up a term, or use a very rare neologism, in the name of neutrality. But in this case the proposed alternatives are perfectly standard and accepted English words. WanderingWanda (they/them) (t/c) 22:37, 27 March 2019 (UTC)[reply]
This is true to a point. Most companies will use the term chairman for both sexes, but it is certainly within the realm of reason that chairperson is used and becoming more common. However this rfc was to change chairman to "Chair (officer)" and that is not common at all and not likely to be. Hence a big oppose from me above. We also do whatever we can not to disambiguate with parentheses if possible. There is no reason to do that in this case. Also I'm not sure about wikipedia being so neutral... it's always back to consensus. If enough editors say the sun is blue then that's what the article will tell us. If you want neutral then maybe don't start reading President Trump's article, as it's far from even-handed. Fyunck(click) (talk) 00:46, 28 March 2019 (UTC)[reply]
I don't know if it's even-handed but it's certainly small-handed. WanderingWanda (they/them) (t/c) 04:08, 28 March 2019 (UTC)[reply]
Fyunck(click), it isn't necessarily about moving it to Chair (officer). The RM says "Common alternatives are Chair (officer) and Chairperson. Please state your preference when commenting." If you prefer something else, by all means say so. An oppose means a support for Chairman. SarahSV (talk) 04:31, 28 March 2019 (UTC)[reply]
Which I had already done above. Chairman preferred, chairperson a distant second. Fyunck(click) (talk) 05:08, 28 March 2019 (UTC)[reply]
@Fyunck(click): If enough editors say the sun is blue then that's what the article will tell us, no absolutely not, since all factual claims need to be sourced if challenged. Article titles aren't subject to sourcing in the same way, which is why we are discussing this, whereas we could not discuss whether to say that the sun is blue, since there are no reliable sources. Peter coxhead (talk) 17:32, 28 March 2019 (UTC)[reply]
Ah! I presume a naivety of youth. If enough editors don't like your sources they will be dismissed as "unreliable" or "primary" in favour of sources which support the cabal's opinion. If any source that denies the sun is blue is discounted, all sources will be supporting it. Martin of Sheffield (talk) 17:39, 28 March 2019 (UTC)[reply]
Yes, that is the way things tend to work here. A title spelling could have 100 sources spelling it one way and zero to two sources spelling it another way. But if enough editors would rather have it at the un-sourced or low-sourced spelling, that's where it will be. It's just something you learn after more than a decade of editing here. You !vote, you shrug your shoulders, you move on. It's not a big deal, it's just the way things are. Fyunck(click) (talk) 20:52, 28 March 2019 (UTC)[reply]
It seems to be the case that companies still overwhelmingly use chairman, whereas other organisations variously use chairman, chairperson or chair. The fact is, of course, that chairman has always been used for both men and women (although chairwoman has been seen in the past, mostly in all-female organisations such as the Women's Institute), whereas other terms like policeman and fireman have generally only been used for men, with policewoman and firewoman being used in the past for women, and police officer and firefighter being overwhelmingly used generically today, although men (but not generally women) in those roles are still often referred to as policemen and firemen. It's just one of the many peculiarities of common English language usage that a woman can be a chairman but not a policeman! One size does not fit all in our language. That's just a fact of life. -- Necrothesp (talk) 10:35, 28 March 2019 (UTC)[reply]
I can concede that it is more common and accepted to refer to a woman as a chairman than a woman as a policeman. (On Google Ngrams, I tried comparing "she became a policeman" to "she became a police officer" but it couldn't even find any instances of the former.)
This is an interesting case. Is chairman the most commonly used word for this concept? Yes. Can you find big corporations or newspapers who use the word chairman to refer to both men and women? Yes. But... is chairman the most common or accepted term for a female chair? I would argue no. According to Google Ngrams, the phrase "she became chair" is more common than "she became chairman". Is the term exclusively male? No. But is it weighted male? Yes. This isn't a completely black or white case, but I'm going to err on the side of inclusivity and gender neutrality and will stick by my vote. WanderingWanda (they/them) (t/c) 16:03, 28 March 2019 (UTC)[reply]
  1. For the sanity of whoever closes the debate, up to this point five support Chair (officer), fourfive (edit conflict) support Chairperson and five support Chairman.
  2. I have removed User:Fyunck(click)'s modification of User:SlimVirgin's original nomination statement because it screwed up the bot. The nominator's statement can't be a block of text with two signatures in except for relist notes and technical request permalinks. Feel free to add it in a comment.
Many thanks, SITH (talk) 15:45, 30 March 2019 (UTC)[reply]
Very strange since I've seen that done a thousand times in the past when pertinent info has been missing from the initial listing. Especially when it starts off with choices "A", "B" and "C" and then an additional choice "D" gets added. Has the bot changed this year? Fyunck(click) (talk) 18:30, 30 March 2019 (UTC)[reply]
  • Support: I know there's an element of PC-gone-mad to this, but my experience tells me that a chair presides over a meeting. But, aside from anything else, who's saying that the 'wo' hasn't just been omitted from the middle? –Sb2001 00:36, 1 April 2019 (UTC)[reply]


NOTE on deleted AP Style Guide - This was removed from the top of the RM. AP Manual of Style - AP Style holds that you should not use coined words such as “chairperson” or “spokesperson” in regular text. Instead, use “chairman” or “spokesman” if referring to a man or the office in general. Use “chairwoman” if referring to a woman. Or, if applicable, use a neutral word such as “leader” or “representative.” Use “chairperson” or similar coinage only in direct quotations or when it is the formal description for an office. Fyunck(click) (talk) 05:35, 28 March 2019 (UTC)[reply]

Discussion

Any additional comments:
Ngrams' most recent material is a decade old. We need to use it with caution. EvergreenFir (talk) 18:45, 24 March 2019 (UTC)[reply]
Usage in the last 10 years, even if radically different, does not outweigh usage of over a hundred years. Wikipedia is not about WP:NEOLOGISMS. Ngrams is one of the most valuable tools (if used correctly) for demonstrating common usage. It is broad evidence, where otherwise we are left, as the supporters of this have done, to cherry-pick style guides and such. -- Netoholic @ 19:08, 24 March 2019 (UTC)[reply]
Widespread language changes, even rather new ones, should be reflected in wikipedia. If something sticks around and is not just some meme (e.g., yeet), then we should reflect that. We use gender inclusive terms for many other occupations and positions as language around them has changed. That's not to say all which occupations have changed, as you noted below, but when they do we should update a well. EvergreenFir (talk) 19:15, 24 March 2019 (UTC)[reply]
Netoholic, if we didn't rely on modern usage, we'd still be using lots of racist language. You can see the discomfort with the title in the regular attempts on talk to question it. SarahSV (talk) 20:17, 24 March 2019 (UTC)[reply]
"Chairman" is neither gender-inclusive nor -exclusive. Its just a word as it exists in the language, and the most common word used to describe this topic. I think many of you are just guessing (hoping?) that the usage has changed significantly in the past 10 years, but you're not doing anything to provide evidence that it has beyond cherry-picking a couple articles and a few style guides which disagree a lot amongst themselves and are not sources for how widespread usage is, just how its used in specific circumstances. -- Netoholic @ 20:24, 24 March 2019 (UTC)[reply]
Netoholic, the reason it doesn't feel gender-exclusive to you is that you don't belong to an excluded gender. Gender is invisible to the gender that sees itself and its language as the default. But the word excludes me. I felt a sense of shock, an actual jolt, when I found this page.
Imagine if the standard term had started out as "Chair (whites only)". Over time other people came to be accepted as chairs too, but some diehards refused to drop "whites only" from the title, so when a black person becomes chair, they have to be called "Chair (whites only, but this one's black)". That's how absurd "Madam Chairman" sounds to me. SarahSV (talk) 20:42, 24 March 2019 (UTC)[reply]
@SlimVirgin: - I'm curious what gender you guess I am... and why you are dismissing my participation here based on that ramifications of that guess. Beyond that, I should point out that your emotional state is not part of the Wikipedia titling guidelines. Neither is strawmanning some equivalence to racism, nor the "absurdity" that you think is involved. -- Netoholic @ 20:51, 24 March 2019 (UTC)[reply]
@Netoholic: You said that chairman is "neither gender-inclusive nor -exclusive". However, it is taken that way today, regardless of the etymological basis of the word. The MoS's I linked above generally point to this fact for their support of the gender-inclusive "chair" title. EvergreenFir (talk) 00:04, 25 March 2019 (UTC)[reply]
@EvergreenFir: - "taken that way today" has no basis in any impartial measure of usage - its just your opinion or limited perspective. Just repeating that claim over and over again will not make it true. -- Netoholic @ 01:22, 25 March 2019 (UTC)[reply]
Not just my opinion... [2], [3], [4], [5], [6]... EvergreenFir (talk) 01:43, 25 March 2019 (UTC)[reply]
  • The American Heritage Dictionary's usage note on chairman is a worthwhile read. It says that Words that end with the element -man ...sometimes generate controversy because they are considered sexist by some people...This ongoing controversy is evident from our usage surveys. It says that its usage panel (which it describes as a a group of nearly 200 prominent scholars, creative writers, journalists, diplomats, etc.) was asked to look at a sentence that referred to a woman as a chairman. 57 percent accepted the sentence, which is a majority, but which means a large portion of the panel did not accept it. It goes on to say: For writers interested in avoiding -man compounds that have synonyms, alternatives include compounds employing -woman and -person, as in chairwoman and spokesperson, and more inclusive terms that avoid the gender-marked element entirely, such as chair for chairman, letter carrier for mailman, and first-year student for freshman.
To me, the word Chairman is obviously similar to the generic he, which the MOS asks us to avoid. Both are in wide use but both are clearly controversial and considered by many people to be exclusionary. WanderingWanda (they/them) (t/c) 00:33, 25 March 2019 (UTC)[reply]
Its not at all similar to he and stating "To me" points to your lack of understanding that your personal opinion doesn't matter. He is specifically a male-referencing pronoun. "Chairman" is gender-neutral. If your claim is that just because a compound word uses "-man" makes it exclusive to males, then I wonder what you think of the word woman. Though, I should thank you for adding another data point (American Heritage Dictionary) to the stack of evidence that points to "chairman" being the WP:COMMONNAME. -- Netoholic @ 01:24, 25 March 2019 (UTC)[reply]
And I should thank you for reminding me that it's often better not to hedge. I've stricken "to me" from the post. :) WanderingWanda (they/them) (t/c) 01:56, 25 March 2019 (UTC)[reply]
The American Heritage Dictionary survey is from 15 years ago. We need to know what style books recommend now, which is why I referred to the Chicago Manual of Style, 2017, 5.250, p. 318: "chair; chairman; chairwoman; chairperson. Chair is widely regarded as the best gender-neutral choice. Since the mid-seventeenth century, chair has referred to an office of authority." That is the latest edition of an authoritative style guide.
The American Heritage Dictionary also refers to chair as in officer: "A person who holds an office or a position of authority, such as one who presides over a meeting or administers a department of instruction at a college; a chairperson." SarahSV (talk) 01:59, 25 March 2019 (UTC)[reply]
Here is a very important takeaway you both seem to be missing: In the 2004 survey ... 57 percent accepted Emily Owen, chairman of the mayor's task force, issued a statement assuring residents that their views would be solicited, a percentage that was actually higher than the 48 percent in the 1988 survey. This means that according to AHD, the trend is actually going the opposite of the direction that you think it should. -- Netoholic @ 04:56, 25 March 2019 (UTC)[reply]
Regardless, in either case a large portion of the expert panel wouldn't accept a woman being described as chairman as correct. (43% wouldn't accept it in 2004 and 52% wouldn't in 1988.) (For comparison, in 2004 95% of the panel accepted a sentence where a woman was described with the -man word unsportsmanlike.) This undercuts the claim that chairman is a gender neutral word. WanderingWanda (they/them) (t/c) 14:11, 25 March 2019 (UTC)[reply]
  • To me the real issue is applying MOS:GNL as expanded at Wikipedia:Gender-neutral language. Those who oppose the move never seem to directly address this issue. What has been shown is that:
    • "Chair" is widely used, even if less so than "chairman", so is a potential title.
    • "Chairman" is not gender-neutral according to a significant number of style guides, although still recommended by many others.
    • "Chairman" is not gender-neutral when searches combine the word with an explicit indicator of gender, such as "she".
Opponents of a move need to show that using "chairman" is consistent with MOS:GNL or that a title like "Chair (office[r])" would not be. Peter coxhead (talk) 17:44, 28 March 2019 (UTC)[reply]
  • Does anyone feel that WP:NPOVNAME might apply here, if "chairman" can be demonstrated to be the prevalent form? Jmar67 (talk) 20:16, 28 March 2019 (UTC)[reply]
    • I don't think that this is a matter of neutrality in the sense of there being opposed views of what is involved in chairing meetings or boards, so that there are possible titles that support or oppose there being such an office. It's a matter of whether "chairman" meets the test of MOS:GNL. I notice that few "MOS regulars" seem to be contributing here. I think it would be useful if they did. Peter coxhead (talk) 22:18, 28 March 2019 (UTC)[reply]
    • "Chairman" is demonstrably, and resoundingly, the most prevalent form. "Chair" is 2nd and "Chairperson" is minuscule 3rd, both on the decline as of the most recent real data we have. "Chairman" is the widely-accepted gender-neutral word to describe this position. -- Netoholic @ 23:53, 30 March 2019 (UTC)[reply]
      • No-one has disputed that "chairman" is the most commonly used (if only because the majority of chairs of major corporations are men); this is not the issue. The issue is whether it is sufficiently gender-neutral to satisfy MOS:GNL, and I do not believe that this has been shown, and it certainly cannot be shown by counts of usage. It should be based on reference to recent manuals of style; "recent" because usage is still changing with respect to gender neutrality. Peter coxhead (talk) 08:26, 31 March 2019 (UTC)[reply]
  • For heaven's sake no more relists please I support chairperson but if it doesn't happen, don't keep relisting. 22:55, 30 March 2019 (UTC)
  • As I noted in an earlier post, I think a compromise that emphasizes the role and not the person might be in order at this point. An article title such as "Chair (role)" or "Chair (office of authority)" seems like the best solution as opposed to attempting to find a single synonym for "chairman" that everyone can agree on. Jmar67 (talk) 10:06, 31 March 2019 (UTC)[reply]
I agree. There's a considerable literature on how to chair meetings, for example, including issues such as the chair's casting vote, which would be better accomodated at an article on the role than on the person, whatever they are called. Peter coxhead (talk) 15:28, 31 March 2019 (UTC)[reply]
I do not agree. King (role)? President (office of authority)?! The exact position that this article is about is still called Chairman, overwhelmingly. We should leave it at that, with appropriate variations givenin the text. --SergeWoodzing (talk) 20:13, 31 March 2019 (UTC)[reply]
But unlike these offices, there's a specific set of activities covered by "chairing", and these are currently very poorly covered in the article. We have lots of articles at the activity rather than the actor, like Cooking or Skiing, so why not an article at "Chairing"? It avoids any suggestion of gender bias. I suppose there could be a different article, but this seems overkill to me. Peter coxhead (talk) 21:25, 31 March 2019 (UTC)[reply]
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