Talk:Commoner (disambiguation)

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I think this definition is not quite precise enough. As shown by the example of Sir Alexander Ramsey (cited in the article on Princess Alexandra), having a title does not stop one being a commoner. I think that, in terms of royal marriages, "commoner" actually means one who is not of royal blood, rather than one who is not of noble blood. Opinions? Deb 19:10 28 Jul 2003 (UTC)

Sir Alexander Ramsay had a Knighthood. Just having a Knightood did not mean that you were no longer a Commoner. If you were a Lord (i.e. a Peer - Baron, Earl, Viscount, Marquis, Duke, or Lord Of Parliament) you would not be a Commoner. Anyone can be a Knight (as long as their male). Princes and Kings can Knighted. That title has NOTHING to do with Royal blood.Indisciplined (talk) 19:20, 19 June 2008 (UTC)[reply]

I do not believe that the category of "commoner" has any legal consequences in England at the present time, so it is slightly misleading to say "in British law...." since that implies that there is some currency to the idea. It might be that the more popular meaning is really "correct" simply because it is the current usage. I may, of course, be wrong about it and would be interested to have some law cited at me to the contrary. There is also no such thing as "British law". Francis Davey 01:20, 19 Feb 2005 (UTC)

The fruits of legal research suggest that there *might* be a distinction, although I am not sure if the one made on this page is either correct or right -- as I will explain. However searching through a standard legal encylopedia (Halsbury's) for English law, the vast majority of usages of the word "commoner" are for people who have rights of common. Surely this should be under this entry and the usage of commoner that is here put somewhere else?

What difference does being a commoner make? Well, in the first place the procedure used at a trial for impeachment is different -- but since there haven't been any of those for such an inordinate time, I do not believe that makes any real difference and it only appears to have made a difference to procedure.

As to sitting in the House of Commons, things were always more complicated than is expressed below, eg many people were unable to sit (eg clergy), but I believe that Irish peers were. Now of course being a peer does not stop you sitting (nor does being a clerk). In theory Prince Charles could sit as an MP of the House of Commons, although whether he would get elected is another matter.

Otherwise, the only difference I can find is that -- according to Halsbury's -- mesne process etc cannot be levied against a peer. I doubt that is anymore correct, or it shouldn't be.

Speaking as a practising lawyer, it worries me that we have here defined in "law" a term, which appears to have no practical application and is never used except by people obsessed with royalty etc. Whereas "commoner" does mean something useful and practical. Francis Davey 01:38, 19 Feb 2005 (UTC)

This page is entirely wrong. In British law, a Commoner is someone who is not a Peer or the Sovereign. No Commoner is a Peer, and no Peer is a Commoner. Any member of the Royal Family who is not a Peer (e.g. The Princess Royal, Princes William and Harry, Princesses Beatrice and Eugenie) is a Commoner, and can legally vote and stand in elections for the House of Commons. Proteus 13:53 GMT 1st December 2003

Can you back this up with a reference please ? I'm pretty sure you are correct but would like some evidence. If you are able to cite a reference, and are therfore certain, then just go ahead and rewrite the page. theresa knott 14:27, 1 Dec 2003 (UTC)

From the BritFAQ of the usenet group alt.talk.royalty:

"Who is a Commoner in Britain?

Anyone who is not the sovereign or the holder of a substantive (as opposed to courtesy) peerage. This includes all members of the royal family who are not peers, and all members of peerage families except the actual peer: for example, Prince William of Wales, the Princess Royal, the earl of Arundel (son of a duke) are all commoners.

While this definition is legally correct, it seems counter-intuitive to many, in part because it is so different from the continental usage. This tends to generate confusion and debates, and use of the word should perhaps be avoided where possible."

I'll probably rewrite the page when I have some time. Proteus 11:16 GMT 4th December 2003

This page could use some discussion of commoners in countries other than the UK. I believe most monarchies have such a distinction. Nate 04:07, 8 September 2006 (UTC)[reply]

Titles do not determine anything. A person can have all the titles they want, granted by any monarchy, however, if that person is not descended directly from royalty or noblity recently or sometime in the past the title means nothing. They are still a commoner. In the past, to be a commoner was to be without royal or noble blood and it had nothing to do with titles. RosePlantagenet 03:05, 15 July 2007 (UTC)[reply]

No, that's total nonsense. To re-state: A Peer is a reigning monarch or current holder of a Peerage. Anyone else is a Commoner. It really is that simple. It has nothing to do with Royal Blood. Very few modern Peers claim descent from Royalty. Instead there ancestors got their hereditary titles as reward for service or for having held high office. Holding such a title means your are a Peer and not a Commoner.

Historically, holding a peerage in Britain gave you and automatic seat in the House of Lords, but barred you from sitting in the other chamber of Parliament, the one legally reserved for Commoners, and therefore known as The House of Commons. Any member of the House of Commons who inherited a Peerage therefore ceased to be a Commoner and legally lost the right to their seat there (in the 1960s a new law was passed allowing Lords to legally give up their titles, and become commoners again, in order that they could sit in the Commons, see Tony Benn). Since the early 21st Century reforms to Parliament, it is for the first time possible for a Peer to sit in the House of Commons.

'Peer' in Britain is the holder of a specific kind of office. Anyone who does not hold such an office is by default a Commoner. Indisciplined (talk) 19:37, 19 June 2008 (UTC)[reply]

Surely the fact that Prince William of Wales is a member of the royal family contradicts any other laws about this peerage nonsense? --Camaeron 16:33, 16 November 2007 (UTC)[reply]

Ironic, yes. But he's legally a commoner till they make him a Duke, or he gets the top job Indisciplined (talk) 19:44, 19 June 2008 (UTC)[reply]

Yes, it's counter-intuitive to many, especially to the many royals and titles fans who eagerly participate in royals websites, to say that anyone but the monarch and peers is a commoner. They can't accept it. Those fans want to believe that "Lady This" or "Prince That" cannot possibly be on the same level as "Mr. That" or "Miss This." But it's true. In practice, ANY member of the royal family (even non-royals, such as the children of Princesses Margaret and Anne) is regarded by the royals fan base as a royal and not as a mere commoner, and anyone called "Lord" or "Lady" is thought not to be a commoner either. This is especially true among Americans, who have no experience of titles and who don't understand the concept of "courtesy" titles. They don't get it. So, this article needs to be rewritten with this problem in mind; it needs to address the confusion directly. And while discussing the differences between British and Continental usages is very important, it should also be kept in mind that most people anxiously concerned about the matter, and who might be consulting an English-language Wiki article, are British royals fans whose interest is in the British royal family and peerage.Lolliapaulina51 (talk) 02:01, 30 August 2009 (UTC)[reply]

There are, in my opinion, two different definitions of 'commoners': the "more common" definition is anyone who is not of royal title or of nobility (with peerage - real or even courtesy). The 'royal' definition, a more continental Europe one, seems to be anyone who is not royal. For example, the Countess Claudine Rhédey von Kis-Rhéde (Queen Elizabeth II's great-great-grandmother on Queen Mary's side) was a member of nobility and would certainly be classified as someone with peerage by British definition, but she was viewed as a commoner among the 19th century German and continental European royals using the second definition, as the royals thumped their noses at her. --JNZ (talk) 11:02, 25 February 2008 (UTC)[reply]

This is a confusion between British & (Old) German Law. Under the later there were two definitions of nobility: High nobles & Low Nobles. The former were nobles 'for time out of mind' while the later were those of "recent" creation and had usualy held letters of patent. All high nobles are equals (peers) irrespective of their particular title (if they have one). 'Royals' under German law are high nobles and as such it was illegal to marry out of their class. Although all ruling Princes in Germany were High nobles -- many other high nobles were not rulers and could be little more than a Lord of Manor but still be the peer of an ruling prince.

Low Nobles held letters of patent (from ruling princes) were recent creations (post 1400) and often they were more likely to have a 'title'. For continental (& German) nobility - a title was not a requirement for being a noble, but all titled persons were nobles (either high or low). Countess Claudine was NOT a commoner (under German Law) but she was a Low Noble and therefore not a peer to a High Noble - so her marrage was morganatic - under German Law.

Even though her children (through the grant of patent) were created a Dukes and Princes, she and her childeren would be Low Nobles....this doesn't seem to have bothered the British Royal Family who married one them. Jalipa (talk) 22:51, 25 February 2008 (UTC)[reply]

There may be some confusion of the continental use of the word 'Countess' as opposed to it's use in Britain. Claudine Rhédey von Kis-Rhéde was a 'Countesss' as a courtesy title as the daughter of a peer. That would be equivalent to holding the courtesy title 'Lady' in Britain because your father was an Earl or Duke. Claudine was NOT actually a Peer in her own right. That makes her equivalent in rank to say Lady Diana Spencer before her marriage to Prince Charles. But where British Royals could marry Commoners freely with no consequence for inheritance rights, a German Prince who married outside his class would be classified as having entered into a Morganatic Marriage, and the children of that marriage were legally barred from the succession - as Claudine's were. Claudine's son was easily able to marry a British Princess, as there were no legal issues around the family's 'low' ancestory in Britain. For that reason, a whole stream of Morganauts (children of Morganatic Marriages) headed to Britain in the 19th Century (like the Tecks and Battenbergs), as the marriage prospects were considerably better than back home. Indisciplined (talk) 19:14, 19 June 2008 (UTC)[reply]

It has been proposed in this section that Commoner (disambiguation) be renamed and moved to Commoners in the United Kingdom. A bot will list this discussion on the requested moves current discussions subpage within an hour of this tag being placed. The discussion may be closed 7 days after being opened, if consensus has been reached (see the closing instructions). Please base arguments on article title policy, and keep discussion succinct and civil. Please use {{subst:requested move}}. Do not use {{requested move/dated}} directly. Links: current log • target log • direct move

Commoners in Great Britain → Commoners in the United Kingdom — As far as I know, this covers Northern Ireland and well as Great Britain. The Celestial City (talk) 22:43, 18 November 2010 (UTC)[reply]

I'm not 100% sure but I don't think it does. There are separate articles for Peerage of Great Britain and Peerage of the United Kingdom Mhiji (talk) 04:22, 19 November 2010 (UTC)[reply]

And the article on Peerage of Great Britain states that it was replaced by Peerage of the United Kingdom in 1801, so what is the objection to the proposal? Skinsmoke (talk) 09:37, 19 November 2010 (UTC)[reply]