Wikipedia talk:WikiProject Croatia

These articles need a merge, so if any of you are knowledgeable about the subject - or at least interested in it - you might want to take a look. GregorB (talk) 13:15, 7 March 2009 (UTC)[reply]

Lots of Croatia-related articles are underestimated or unvalued on the importance scale. For example article about Petar Krešimir IV of Croatia is rated importance=mid, and Croatia had its greater extend during his reign. I will rate some articles concerning Dux and Kings of Croatia until some consensus is reached, but there are lots of other underestimated or unvalued articles, especially concerning history and arhitecture. Such as Cathedral of St. James, Šibenik. --Kebeta (talk) 21:20, 9 March 2009 (UTC)[reply]

I agree with you completely that in both of these cases high importance is warranted. However, I see e.g. Porga of Croatia - currently assessed as high - as mid importance at best. My rule of thumb for biographies has been: if the subject is not familiar (or only marginally familiar) to an average person in Croatia, then it can be assessed as low or mid only. Also, for example, I see Tomislav I of Croatia below Josip Broz Tito in importance, but currently it's other way around. Of course, since there are no written rules, anything goes, more or less - it is a matter for discussion. (In fact, even with written rules it wouldn't be much different.) GregorB (talk) 18:04, 10 March 2009 (UTC)[reply]

I'm not sure about that Tomislav vs. Tito example, as I think I would give them the same importance. Yes, I remember quite well telling jokes about Tito in the kindergarten when the war started, but Tomislav is also very important for Croatia as the first king. Admiral Norton ^(talk) 18:45, 10 March 2009 (UTC)[reply]

One of the criteria for assessing importance is how likely it is that a typical Wikipedia user would look up the article in question. In that department, JBT probably beats king Tomislav. Nevertheless, they were both assessed as high importance, and I was fine with that.

E.g. an argument could also be made that Dubrovnik should be ranked as top (as Zagreb and Split are), given its historical and cultural importance, as well as international renown. But this is a judgment call, of course, like everything else.

Just recently I reassessed all the counties as high importance. Is that too high? You be the judge...

Is this the first discussion regarding assessment on WP Croatia? Well, it was about time... :) GregorB (talk) 20:18, 10 March 2009 (UTC)[reply]

Yeah, I think rating counties as high importance isn't really needed. Counties aren't all that important, either for an average English-speaking user, or to Croatians themselves. I think large cities and regional centres (such as Rijeka, Osijek, Dubrovnik, Split, Zagreb, and perhaps Zadar, Šibenik, etc) should be considered more important than counties. Anyways we need someone to write down some rules for this or at least some discussion to set priorities for this whole work group, so we can do some work systematically as opposed to individual and sporadic efforts based on personal preferences. Timbouctou (talk) 21:42, 10 March 2009 (UTC)[reply]

County articles are convenient for a high-level overview, but I agree, this still does not imply high importance (compare e.g. Istria and Istria County). This is a small project (in terms of number of participants), so perhaps we don't really need a full-blown assessment department, but some sort of coordination is definitely necessary. GregorB (talk) 08:16, 11 March 2009 (UTC)[reply]

I've just reassessed all the county articles as mid. Note that Međimurje currently redirects to Međimurje County, which is perhaps unfortunate (I'd normally rate Međimurje as high), altough subjects do overlap. GregorB (talk) 09:38, 12 March 2009 (UTC)[reply]

Should we rate Josip Broz Tito Top, or leave it High? Somebody likes him, and somebody hates him, but he made great influence in Croatia and World. I agree/disagree with Admiral Norton about JBT and king Tomislav, they should bouth be rated same, but rated Top. Now there are 4,5 million Croats in Croatia, and about the same in diaspora. Through history there were x million Croats that had lived. Can't you/we grade more then 50 of them as Top. Why underestimated them. Regards. --Kebeta (talk) 19:37, 12 March 2009 (UTC)[reply]

Well, JBT beats Franjo Tuđman in the Google test, and that's something. Beats King Tomislav in both "probability that non-Historians would look this up" (as already noted) and "large impact outside of their main discipline, across several generations".[1] (Well, arguably - I see King Tomislav's importance as mostly titular, rather than being based on actual impact.) So I'd say Top. (However, I really don't see room for more than 5 or 6 biographies in the Top class.) GregorB (talk) 20:02, 12 March 2009 (UTC)[reply]

1.)"probability that non-Historians would look this up" - does this refer to country or World?. If it refers to country (Croatia) then both of them are well known. Even so, rate is made by WikiProject Croatia, not by WikiProject World. For example, WikiProject Bosnia can rate Tomislav High or Mid (ruled over part of Bosnia...), WikiProject Bulgaria can rate him Low (Battle of the Bosnian Highlands). On the link [2] you posted above, there is example Patrick Henry for High rate. I bet 99,9 people never heard of him, but he is rated High. 2.)"Must have had a large impact..." Well Tomislav was a founder of new country in hart of Europe that influenced world history (less then some other country like Italy or England, but still influenced). 3.)" Limited to the top 200 biographies" - does this refer to country or World?. If this means that every countrys WikiProject is limited with top 200 biographies, then there is room for Tomislav, Tito and lots of others. If 200 biographies refers to World, then we have a problem. 4.)Person can be rated with some rate in WikiProject Biography, and with other rate in WikiProject Croatia (or other country). Best regards to everybody, and sorry if I was to annoying. --Kebeta (talk) 21:32, 12 March 2009 (UTC)[reply]

I think we should try to set priorities in terms which articles related to Croatia wee think are essential to an average English speaking Wikipedia user and also how large the person in question is important for modern Croatia. I think Josip Broz Tito definitely deserves a Top rating since he is probably the most widely known politician of all time hailing from Croatia (due to the Non-aligned movement, split with Soviet Russia and so on), and regardless what anyone may think of him - his legacy is still very much alive and a heated topic in modern Croatia. As for Tomislav, surely he is important for early history of Croatia, but outside of Croatia I doubt that anyone except history buffs could be interested in him and his reign, and as for modern relevance, he is barely ever mentioned or thought of by modern Croats. I think he should be rated High or maybe Medium. Timbouctou (talk) 21:47, 12 March 2009 (UTC)[reply]

Kebeta, you're certainly not annoying - on the contrary, you raise some valid questions regarding issues I sort of glossed over in my writeup. I quoted some importance criteria used by WP Biography which could be "transplanted" to WP Croatia. However, some WP BIO criteria (e.g. limit of 200 biographies in the Top class, worldwide impact) are not applicable here. (Country-themed projects like WP Croatia typically have 50-200 Top class articles, out of which typically no more than a dozen or so are biographies.) You're right, an article's importance rating can (and should) vary among projects. I'd agree with Timbouctou - for biographies, we should consider: 1) notability/impact (both worldwide and national), 2) likelihood of being looked up (both by worldwide and Croatian users). This is fairly clear, but the weighting of these factors is tricky. Still, we don't have to get everything correct, even if the word "correct" made sense at all here. GregorB (talk) 18:34, 13 March 2009 (UTC)[reply]

Since I changed the general article look, I thinked to present Zagreb article into the FA candidature and it says that only some point are needed; if we works on it collectively, thos little points will disappear fastly and we will have immediatly a featured article. NIR-Warrior (talk) 23:19, 11 March 2009 (UTC)[reply]

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Hello all. Since It has been agreed earlier that this project could use some organising, I'd like to start this topic so that we could devise some list of articles by priority. Any input from other editors would be greatly appreciated. For starters, I suggest editors add their thoughts on how we should prioritize Croatia-related articles, according to subject groups (geography, biographies, sports, etcetera). After clarifying the criteria for attributing importance level, we could then agree on selecting certain Top or High rated articles and work on them in regular improvement drives (every month we could take a couple and then cooperate to bring them to GA or FA status). An obvious place to start would be articles on cities/towns - I suggest the capital gets a "Top" rating, large cities with population around 100,000 and up "High" (Split, Osijek, Rijeka), all other county seats a "Mid" rating, and all other towns and settlements "Low". I think this would generally work fine, but I guess we could make an exception every now and then if enough editors agree on it. As for biographies, I suggest we take into account the two criteria mentioned above (the likelihood of the entry being looked up by English speakers paired with the relevance in contemporary Croatian life). Of course, these are difficult to assess when politicians are concerned (In my opinion only Josip Broz Tito and Franjo Tudjman should be rated as "Top") Current and past prime ministers (from 1990 onwards) could be labeled as "High" (Ivo Sanader, Ivica Račan, etc) and current government ministers as well as prominent parliamentary party leaders (past and present) as "Mid" (Milan Bandić, Andrija Hebrang, Gojko Šušak, Vlado Gotovac, etcetera). I suppose this could also be assigned to relevant historic figures, too. As for sports people, I suggest we assign "High" rating to people with notable international careers (Goran Ivanišević, Janica Kostelić, Davor Šuker, Blanka Vlašić), "Mid" to people who are more noted by a single achievement (such as winning a single Olympic medal, or being a part of a team that won an Olympic medal, or people who won competitions in less popular sports, such as table tennis water polo, taekwondo, karate, etc), and "Low" to everybody else. As for companies, we could assign "High" rating to companies listed at foreign stock markets, or to companies which are considered large enough to be notable by international standards (like INA, T-HT, perhaps Pliva :-), "Mid" to companies included in the CROBEX indicator or companies which are of local or regional importance (Varteks, some shipyards, IGH, etc) and "Low" to all others. Well, these are my thoughts for now, there's a lot of stuff I didn't cover here but that's because I'm counting on other editors to chip in :-) In any case, I hope we will be able to create some guidelines so that we can build a list of articles essential for the project that we could than work on improving. Cheers! Timbouctou (talk) 19:39, 20 March 2009 (UTC)[reply]

Generally speaking, I agree... Here are some of my thoughts, in no particular order:

• Assessment is important. The amount of work that goes into WP Croatia is limited, so it makes sense to direct it toward important articles. Improvement drives could help.
• Compared to other projects of similar size and general quality of the articles, WP Croatia is short of GA-plus articles, while having a decent number of B-class articles. Some of these are real GA candidates: Zagreb (recent FA candidate), Lastovo (former FA), etc.
• Referencing is a major stumbling block. My rule of thumb when assessing is that an article that has (virtually) no references can be rated as Start at best. Sadly, there are dozens of such articles that would otherwise easily meet C or even B criteria.
• My rule of thumb for settlements would be: Zagreb and Split (possibly Dubrovnik) are Top, five or six regional centers such as Osijek, Zadar, Rijeka, etc. are High, all designated cities and towns are at least Mid, and everything else is Low (barring exceptions such as Motovun).
• I've seen a nice guideline regarding Mid vs Low for biographies: people rated Mid are important in their discipline, while those rated Low are merely notable. This is easier said than done, of course, but it helps. Person's popularity should be taken into account too, to a degree.
• I'd mostly agree with High and Mid ratings of sportspeople as they currently stand (partly because some of these ratings are by yours truly). There's not much room for additions to High (Vlašić or Šurbek perhaps?). E.g. in football, I don't see anyone on par with Šuker (High). Medals do count, but contemporary popularity also plays a role: if you went about asking people on the street who Ivan Gubijan is, how many would have a clue?
• Note that currently only several writers are rated High, and not a single musician.
• While it's natural that recent events are more likely to be looked up, one must be wary of WP:RECENTISM when assessing.

Well, that's about it for now. Whatever the guidelines may be, it's important to realize that's what they are: guidelines (i.e. help). It is not possible to create a set of hard-and-fast rules anyway. GregorB (talk) 00:04, 21 March 2009 (UTC)[reply]

If anybody's out there, we are trying to work out a better title than Croatia in personal union with Hungary at Talk:Croatia_in_personal_union_with_Hungary#Article_name. I've already asked at the main History article since it may require a complete restructuring of the history but I haven't heard anything. Anyone have an opinion? -- Ricky81682 (talk) 07:59, 25 March 2009 (UTC)[reply]

Re: History of Croatia/Dalmatia (Principality of Paganija & De Administrator Imperio)

I have been invite to participate in the article in the talk pages concerning Dalmatia. I’ve undertook some research to examine the history of the articles in question. I found some of the authors of these articles to have stated that they support biased and questionable political leanings (on their personal Wiki Pages with their Wikipedic symbols and statements).

For example dictator worship, support for former communist regime, and ancient anti fascist slogans (World War Two ended more than 1/2 century ago). There is also some serious cult of the personality issues. What is this all about? From a western point of view it looks like a gathering of the old Yugoslav Communist guard. Correct me please if I am wrong, however weren't they responsible for war crimes, ethnic cleansing, politically imprisonment, torture etc? Why does Wikipedia have these authors, editors writing historical facts? I choose not to debate or engage in conversation with any of these individuals.

To put the issues of Croatia/Dalmatia history succinctly there is a clear contradiction to their stated historic statements. The ethnic demographic of that region is predominately made up of people who have Croatian ancestry and some Italianic ancestry (Roman/Venetian). One merely has to research the Census documents and family names to reach this conclusion. In the face of these facts you still have researchers on your web site contradicting these simple truths (they should be addressed). There is also the issue of Red Croatia. Byzantine, Roman, German, and Venetian chronicles all suggest the existence of Red Croatia which appears to explain the ethnic demographic of the area.

For Wikipedia to retain any sort of respect as a serious and reliable research tool, I would think it would be advisable to address the idea of some sort of academic unbiased screening of it’s writers and editors questionable material.

Regards123.2.59.195 (talk) 04:59, 26 March 2009 (UTC)[reply]