Wikipedia:Articles for deletion/Georges Charmoille

The following discussion is an archived debate of the proposed deletion of the article below. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the appropriate discussion page (such as the article's talk page or in a deletion review). No further edits should be made to this page.

The result was no consensus‎. Owen× ☎ 13:40, 9 June 2024 (UTC)[reply]

Georges Charmoille

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I have been draftifying some articles about 120 years old gymnasts with very insufficient sourcing. This one I'm sending straight to AFD. The log indicates that a WP:LUGSTUB used to occupy the article title Georges Charmoille, before being moved to Gustave. In other words, there seems to have been unreliable sources somewhere along the way regarding his first name. There could be a situation where two brothers were gymnasts, but since this new article doesn't address that discrepancy at all, I consider it completely worthless. The Gustave article currently sits at Draft:Gustave Charmoille, but Georges can't be redirected there since redirects from mainspace to draftspace aren't allowed. Therefore: just nuke this one for emphatically failing WP:SPORTCRIT and problems with WP:V. Geschichte (talk) 10:27, 16 May 2024 (UTC)[reply]

Note: This discussion has been included in the deletion sorting lists for the following topics: Sportspeople and France. WCQuidditch ☎ ✎ 10:54, 16 May 2024 (UTC)[reply]
Comment Does Wikipedia:NOLYMPICS apply here? There are a lot of Olympics books that name him as a bronze medalist in 1906. For example[1][2][3]
This should be transcluded to the Olympics deletion sorting list. If I knew how, I'd do it myself. Oblivy (talk) 11:08, 16 May 2024 (UTC)[reply]
@Oblivy As I mentioned above, there are serious uncertainties about who "Georges" Charmoille really is. We already have a draft for Gustave, who is recognized as the correct name for the Olympian by Olympedia, at least. Geschichte (talk) 13:06, 16 May 2024 (UTC)[reply]
The two sources at Gustave are websites that lack citations for their assertions. archive.org has one hit for Gustave, seemingly about a dance performance. It has 38 hits about Georges, admittedly all post-1980. The official site lists Georges as competing but not medalling in 1908. Oblivy (talk) 13:32, 16 May 2024 (UTC)[reply]
Olympedia seems to say he's known by both names? Seems very likely notable if he's the WORLD champion gymnast - deletion would seem to leave him as the only champion without an article per Template:NavigationWorldChampionsArtisticGymnasticsMenHorizontalBar? BeanieFan11 (talk) 17:50, 16 May 2024 (UTC)[reply]
Comment Note that the draft at "Gustave" was also previously "Georges". I am sure we could ask the Olympedia team for their research on the matter to better know which name should be the article title - and for sources to use in it. I don't have significant time to do it, so I am neutral on whether the content of this article should be moved to the current draft article likely about the same person or not, but if it's going to take some time for clarity, it probably should. Kingsif (talk) 22:42, 16 May 2024 (UTC)[reply]
Keep on its face, he meets the WP:NSPORTS requirement for medalling at an Olympic games. I recognize the possible argument that the 1906 games weren't really the Olympics (note old discussion here that did not reach a consensus) but they were considered the Olympics at the time and so the same spirit of best-in-the-world seems to apply.
Gustave vs. Georges seems irrelevant to this discussion. I don't think one uncited claim on a website is enough to discard the many books listing him under Georges. If necessary, create a redirect from Gustave and mention the controversy (if it can be supported by RS) on this page. Oblivy (talk) 13:17, 18 May 2024 (UTC)[reply]

Relisted to generate a more thorough discussion and clearer consensus.
Please add new comments below this notice. Thanks, Doczilla _{Ohhhhhh, no!} 09:25, 24 May 2024 (UTC)[reply]

Keep although there doesn't seem much to say. That the first name is uncertain seems to me to be irrelevant, it is entirely possible he used both names or one was his common name and the other his official name. JMWt (talk) 10:29, 24 May 2024 (UTC)[reply]
On the contrary: the uncertainty about the first name pertains to the very root of the WP:V issue: who was this person? It's not up to us to speculate on which name was what, we need reliable sources. Geschichte (talk) 09:03, 31 May 2024 (UTC)[reply]
I'm having trouble understanding the verifiability issue. We have a number of record books with the Georges name in them. And the official Olympic website says Georges as the principal name.
On the other hand, we have the secondary name on the Olympics site and a website associating that name with him. Anything else? Is there a reliable source that is clearly him and gives Gustave as the principal name? If someone added a sentence or two discussing name controversy, wouldn't the full picture be disclosed? Oblivy (talk) 12:19, 31 May 2024 (UTC)[reply]
Delete: Lack of sourcng... I tried a search in the BNF newspaper archives, this was all that came up [4] second to last paragraph in the last column on the right. A person with the same name died in a torpedo attack. Oaktree b (talk) 14:08, 24 May 2024 (UTC)[reply]
Note: This discussion has been included in the list of Olympics-related deletion discussions. WCQuidditch ☎ ✎ 14:40, 24 May 2024 (UTC)[reply]

Relisted to generate a more thorough discussion and clearer consensus.
Please add new comments below this notice. Thanks, Arbitrarily0 ^(talk) 13:25, 1 June 2024 (UTC)[reply]

The above discussion is preserved as an archive of the debate. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the appropriate discussion page (such as the article's talk page or in a deletion review). No further edits should be made to this page.