Talk:2019 El Paso Walmart shooting

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A news item involving 2019 El Paso Walmart shooting was featured on Wikipedia's Main Page in the In the news section on 4 August 2019.

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The contentious topics procedure applies to this page. This page is related to governmental regulation of firearm ownership; the social, historical and political context of such regulation; and the people and organizations associated with these issues, which has been designated as a contentious topic. Editors who repeatedly or seriously fail to adhere to the purpose of Wikipedia, any expected standards of behaviour, or any normal editorial process may be blocked or restricted by an administrator. Editors are advised to familiarise themselves with the contentious topics procedures before editing this page.

Instead of presenting excerpt(s) from the manifesto, I think we should rely on the in-depth evaluation, interpretation, and analysis provided by published secondary sources to describe its contents. Not only should we avoid indiscriminate and unduly weighted soundbites, quoting them without appropriate context is arguably promotional. As terrorism expert Peter R. Neumann told The Washington Post recently, these manifestos are propaganda meant to inspire similar attacks. It should go without saying that's not what an encyclopedia is for. —Sangdeboeuf (talk) 11:18, 18 September 2019 (UTC)[reply]

Given the overwhelming silence, I've removed the quote box from the top of the section, which had just such an indiscriminate excerpt. —Sangdeboeuf (talk) 04:19, 22 September 2019 (UTC)[reply]

I've removed another soundbite and an out-of-context paraphrase of the author's thoughts on consumption and sustainability. To reiterate, Wikipedia is explicitly not for spreading propaganda. Rather than summarizing the manifesto uncritically, we should summarize the evaluation of published secondary sources. —Sangdeboeuf (talk) 11:05, 5 October 2019 (UTC)[reply]

Re: "author states he is not a white supremacist": Well, he would, wouldn't he? In any case, I've added two reliable sources describing the attack as an expression of white supremacy. --Sangdeboeuf (talk) 09:57, 19 August 2021 (UTC)[reply]

This section is pinned and will not be automatically archived.

...I went out and took some pictures. You're welcome to add any you like to the article. Hopefully, they'll help spruce it up a little. TomStar81 (Talk) 05:53, 4 February 2020 (UTC)[reply]

If you have evidence of the subject's autism, identify it. The defense claim of "mental disabilities" is simply too vague.207.224.194.32 (talk) 10:58, 3 August 2020 (UTC)[reply]

I can't find autism in the current version of the article. The source given is here.--♦IanMacM♦ ^{(talk to me)} 11:27, 3 August 2020 (UTC)[reply]

I can't find any justification for categorizing this terrorism. Crusius was not even charged with terrorism, much less convicted of it, despite the Department of Justice making highly publicized indications to do so. The guideline is: A defining characteristic is one that reliable sources commonly and consistently define the subject as having. Where are the reliable sources calling this terrorism? Nweil (talk) 15:54, 5 May 2021 (UTC)[reply]

The sources are cited in the article here, here, here, here, here, and here. See also:

• Carty, Victoria (2021). The Immigration Crisis in Europe and the U.S.-Mexico Border in the New Era of Heightened Nativism. Lexington Books. p. 90. ISBN 978-1-4985-8390-9. In another act of domestic terrorism, Patrick Crusius shot and killed rwenty-two and injured twenty-four at a shooting at a Walmart store in August 2019 in El Paso, TX.
• Johnson, Scott P. (2021). "Domestic Political Terrorists". Political Assassins, Terrorists and Related Conspiracies in American History. McFarland. ISBN 978-1-4766-4203-1. During his interrogation, Crusius expressed no remorse or regret and admitted he was targeting Mexicans, therefore, the mass shooting was instantly classified as a hate crime and a case of domestic terrorism.
• Lenard, Patti Tamara (2020). How Should Democracies Fight Terrorism?. Polity. ISBN 978-1-5095-4077-8. Patrick Wood Crusius, who entered a Walmart in El Paso, Texas in 2019 and murdered 22 people, had posted a manifesto online citing his hatred of Hispanics, and immigrants more generally, claiming that they were responsible for the dilution of the white race. These examples showcase two forms of terrorism that are occupying the attention of domestic security authorities: Terrorism committed by so-called 'far-right extremists', as in the case of Bowers, Crusius, and the gunman in New Zealand [...]
• Parsons, Deborah A.; Kremling, Janine (2021). Community Policing Today: Issues, Controversies, and Innovations. SAGE Publications. p. 67. ISBN 978-1-5443-3671-8. Patrick Crusius shot and killed 22 people outside a Walmart in El Paso and wounded 24 others. The FBI classified the shooting as a case of domestic terrorism [...]

—Sangdeboeuf (talk) 00:18, 6 May 2021 (UTC)[reply]

Crusius explicitly stated that he was targeting Hispanics, and his manifesto makes it clear that the shooting was politically motivated. Terrorism is defined as "the unlawful use of violence and intimidation, especially against civilians, in the pursuit of political aims". Going off of this information alone, it is clear that the shooting was an act of terrorism. History Man1812 (talk) 13:07, 23 August 2021 (UTC)History_Man1812[reply]

While the document uses language about immigrants similar to that used by U.S. president Donald Trump, such as referring to a migrant "invasion", it states that the author's beliefs predate Trump's presidency, and that Trump should not be blamed for the attack.

This appears to be a terrible paraphrase of the original AP source, which indirectly absolves Trump through poor wording. In fact, the original AP source said:

Though a Twitter account that appears to belong to Crusius included pro-Trump posts praising the plan to build more border wall, the writer of the online document says his views on race predated Trump’s campaign and that any attempt to blame the president for his actions was “fake news.”

This is far more accurate and neutral. My suggestion would to use the exact quote here, since multiple editors have butchered the meaning and intent with a poor paraphrase. Viriditas (talk) 22:47, 28 May 2021 (UTC)[reply]

@Viriditas: I agree with you. The AP quote you provided should replace what is currently there. Given how long ago this post is from and the layers of restrictions on editing this page I was wondering if there is any rule, ruling or reason preventing one from going ahead and making that change? OgamD218 (talk) 04:54, 26 January 2022 (UTC)[reply]

@OgamD218: Thanks for your comment. There’s been so many sneaky edits to this article over the years that I suspect much of it needs a rewrite and a second look at the original sources. It’s common in controversial articles like this to find the content and the source references at total odds with each other. I’ll take another look tomorrow and see if I can’t make a change. Otherwise, please, have at it. I have a list of similar articles on this topic that need work. If you’re interested or have time, contact me on my talk page, and I’ll give you the link to the master file in my user space. Viriditas (talk) 08:12, 26 January 2022 (UTC)[reply]

The following Wikimedia Commons file used on this page or its Wikidata item has been nominated for deletion:

• El Paso Shooting Monument.jpg

Participate in the deletion discussion at the nomination page. —Community Tech bot (talk) 09:06, 21 May 2022 (UTC)[reply]

What went wrong in his life to commit such a horrific act other than his racial opinions? You don't just develop that overnight. 2.44.175.25 (talk) 13:29, 16 November 2022 (UTC)[reply]

Unlike the Stoneman Douglas High School shooting, where a large number of concerns had been raised about Nikolas Cruz's conduct and mental health background prior to the shooting, Patrick Crusius does not seem to have been regarded as a major risk before the alleged incident. The article could expand on Crusius' background but is limited by the upcoming trial.--♦IanMacM♦ ^{(talk to me)} 08:17, 17 November 2022 (UTC)[reply]

@Love of Corey: WP:NOTMEMORIAL does not apply to edits in a page. It specifically says "Subjects of encyclopedia articles" - I am not creating individual articles about the deceased, so a victim's list in this article does not fall under WP:NOTMEMORIAL. See also, WP:NOTNOTMEMORIAL. Esb5415 (talk) 15:51, 20 April 2023 (UTC)[reply]