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Talk:A. C. Bhaktivedanta Swami Prabhupada

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This is an old revision of this page, as edited by Gaura79 (talk | contribs) at 08:26, 22 April 2023 (→‎Views). The present address (URL) is a permanent link to this revision, which may differ significantly from the current revision.

Former good article nomineeA. C. Bhaktivedanta Swami Prabhupada was a Philosophy and religion good articles nominee, but did not meet the good article criteria at the time. There may be suggestions below for improving the article. Once these issues have been addressed, the article can be renominated. Editors may also seek a reassessment of the decision if they believe there was a mistake.
Article milestones
DateProcessResult
June 22, 2008Good article nomineeNot listed

Not svarbanik (sonar) he is kayastha and his father name gaur mohan Dey he is kayastha and Swami Shila prabhupada is belonging to kayastha caste he is born in Kulin Kayastha family of Bengal

Not svarbanik (sonar) he is kayastha and his father name gaur mohan Dey he is kayastha and Swami Shila prabhupada is belonging to kayastha caste he is born in Kulin Kayastha family of Bengal. Yashdeep453 (talk) 02:15, 26 December 2022 (UTC)[reply]

Provide a WP:Reliable source and it can be changed. Dāsānudāsa (talk) 10:26, 27 December 2022 (UTC)[reply]

Views on evolution

Swami Prabhupada's anti-Darwinian views are found here [1] and printed in his book Life Comes from Life [2]. These are primary sources so they are no good for the article but a handful of academic books have picked up on his anti-Darwinian views such as "Asian Religious Responses to Darwinism", page 122 and "Science and Religion Around the World", pages 204-205. Psychologist Guy (talk) 20:47, 6 March 2023 (UTC)[reply]

These academic papers may be of use, I will check through them [3], [4] Psychologist Guy (talk) 21:07, 6 March 2023 (UTC)[reply]
Thanks I will look forward to incorporate them. Editorkamran (talk) 03:01, 7 March 2023 (UTC)[reply]

Name inconsistency

On the article there is some name inconsistency throughout, either Bhaktivedanta or Prabhupada is being used. I would suggest using only using one. Psychologist Guy (talk) 20:50, 6 March 2023 (UTC)[reply]

Bhaktivedanta is the correct choice. See this. Changed here for consistency. Editorkamran (talk) 03:07, 7 March 2023 (UTC)[reply]
"Bhaktivedanta" is not the correct choice, as it's not his name. His name was Swami; Bhaktivedanta and Prabhupada are both honorifics. Calling (Bhaktivedanta) Swami "Bhaktivedanta" is like calling Swami Bon "Bhakti Hriyada" for short, Sridhara "Bhakti Rakshak", Keshava "Bhakti Prajnana", etc. Note also that there are other Bhaktivedantas, most prominently Bhaktivedanta Narayana and his lineage. Dāsānudāsa (talk) 10:05, 7 March 2023 (UTC)[reply]
If Prabhupada is a honorific too, then why did you just revert the last change and reinstall Prabhupada [5]? --Hob Gadling (talk) 10:32, 7 March 2023 (UTC)[reply]
Well, it should be Swami, really, but at least Prabhupada is largely unique to him, whereas literally every Pure Bhakti sannyasi, for example, is called Bhaktivedanta (BV) Something Dāsānudāsa (talk) 11:45, 7 March 2023 (UTC)[reply]
I replaced both by Swami. If you have a problem with that, do not revert the whole edit again but talk about the problem here. We are not janitors who do your work for you while you do only vetoes. --Hob Gadling (talk) 14:06, 7 March 2023 (UTC)[reply]
Completely unnecessarily hostile tone, but OK. Dāsānudāsa (talk) 10:56, 10 March 2023 (UTC)[reply]

Isn't the title "swami" an honorific bestowed by a community of religious believers? It seems to me that referring to him repeatedly as swami is akin to referring to Jesus as "the Christ" - not particularly encyclopedic.... PurpleChez (talk) 03:08, 28 March 2023 (UTC)[reply]

@PurpleChez: Yes "swami" should be removed. It is not used by quality sources.[6][7][8][9] Editorkamran (talk) 05:16, 28 March 2023 (UTC)[reply]
So what is his name? His actual name, devoid of honorifics? 🇺🇦 FiddleTimtrent FaddleTalk to me 🇺🇦 09:06, 28 March 2023 (UTC)[reply]
His birth name is "Abhay Charan De". Editorkamran (talk) 09:08, 28 March 2023 (UTC)[reply]
Thank you. Surely that settles the name inconsistency. All else can he handled within the article provided it is decided what name should be used throughout the article, with removal of all honorific.
The article title should reflect WP:MOSNAME and redirects can handle the remaining variations
The honorifics may be described, certainly. 🇺🇦 FiddleTimtrent FaddleTalk to me 🇺🇦 09:14, 28 March 2023 (UTC)[reply]

It's a bit confusing because Swami is of course a title, but it is also (along with "Goswami") a name used by sannyasis in the line of Bhaktisiddhanta Saraswati. The man in question's name, without honorifics, is "A. C. Bhaktivedanta Swami". Rendered with Swami as a title, it'd be something like "Swami B.V. Swami", which is obviously very confusing and so he avoided doing so.

It's explained in this letter:

So far the title Swami is concerned, although this word is used generally for Sannyasins, this Swami is my particular name as Sannyasi. ... So far the prefix "Swami" is concerned, every sannyasi has got to do that, but two ways Swami (Swami A.C. Bhaktivedanta Swami) is not good looking.

Dāsānudāsa (talk) 09:50, 28 March 2023 (UTC)[reply]

Views

I see many gaping issues with this area.

Slavery: The basis of Prabhupada's teachings and in fact of ISKCON's is that of the soul. Having read his books, it is quite evident to me that he strongly insists that the body and its characteristics are not representative of the soul within, and this can be seen in many of his writings and evidenced by anyone who actually knew him.

Lower Castes: I don't know why this is here. This statement is similar to saying "manual workers don't need much training, but doctors and skilled jobs do", which is true.

Hitlers and Jews: In the first quote, he mentions previous demons (Hiranyakasipu and Kamsa) in his definition of heroes. I can say with absolute certainty that here he means "heroes" as "people with great power", as in his writings he has also denounced these entities many times over as they were antagonistic towards Prahlada (a devotee of God) and Krishna (God himself). Therefore, this statement cannot be used as proof of him supporting antisemitism. Second quote follows same logic as the quote from slavery: against his teachings, so probably a false quote. Thechamp9002 (talk) 22:07, 12 March 2023 (UTC)[reply]

Wikipedia runs on reliable sources and that content is well-sourced. You are have not given any sources just your personal opinion. If you have reliable secondary sources presenting different views feel free to cite them but we do not cite primary sources or personal opinion. Psychologist Guy (talk) 23:30, 12 March 2023 (UTC)[reply]
The whole "Views" section is full of bigoted, wrong, evil, and fringe ideas. They should not just be cited (slavery is great, Hitler was a hero, Jews need to be killed, evolution is nonsense, the moon landing never happened) but put in a mainstream context, just as we would do it in articles about other crackpots. --Hob Gadling (talk) 12:49, 17 March 2023 (UTC)[reply]
So quote where prabhupad said hitler was a hero, or that slavery is gteay, or that jews need to be killed 82.6.61.201 (talk) 21:53, 25 March 2023 (UTC)[reply]
Because those views generated more notability for him as clearly highlighted by the reliable sources. Editorkamran (talk) 06:25, 26 March 2023 (UTC)[reply]
Yeah, none of them actually say that prabhupad "advocated for hitlers holocaust"...and by hero, is also refering to kamsa and hiranyakashipu who are demons. In fact in that very same convo prabhupad calls hitler a demon. The people who edited this page know this. They are just being so unbelievablely bad faith. 82.6.61.201 (talk) 15:23, 26 March 2023 (UTC)[reply]
That content was added by an experienced user Editorkamran so I doubt there has been misrepresentation. The source given for the content about Hitler is The Hare Krishna Movement: The Postcharismatic Fate of a Religious Transplant which is a reliable academic source, I have not read it yet but I have access to it, so I will check it tonight and verify the source. I plan on improving the article so will definitely check the book out later. Psychologist Guy (talk) 15:59, 26 March 2023 (UTC)[reply]
"advocated for hitlers holocaust" is not mentioned anywhere but "He held Jews to be responsible for Holocaust". It is a well-known antisemitic trope to hold Jews responsible for the atrocities caused on them by Hitler. Editorkamran (talk) 16:10, 26 March 2023 (UTC)[reply]
  • I've reverted to the pre-war version of the article. Consesnus shoud be reached first here on the talk page as per Wikipedia rules. Now about the problems with the information that several editors try to add to the article: 1. While The Hare Krishna Movement: The Postcharismatic Fate of a Religious Transplant is indeed a publication edited by indologist Edwin F. Bryant and published by an academic publisher, it is in fact a compilation of articles written mostly by current and former ISKCON devotees, most of them are not scholars. 2. The cource is improperly cited, on the pages cited there is an article by a former Swami's disciple Ekkehard Lorenz. 3. In the contributor's section it's stated that Ekkehard Lorenz is "a student of Indology with focus on medieval ancient Sanskrit at the Institute for Oriental Languages at the University of Stokholm, Sweden". In other words, the authot is not a scholar in the fioeld, not a scholar at all (he didn't even have a higher education at the time of writing). Therefore his analysis of Swami Bhaktivedanta's teachings have zero weight and should not be added to the article. 4. I was not able to find any other source that mentions those controversial statements on race, Hitler etc. If souch sources will be found, we can discuss here adding this information to the article.--Gaura79 (talk) 08:24, 22 April 2023 (UTC)[reply]
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