Wikipedia:Deletion review/Log/2011 October 19

This close by SilkTork gives too much weight to the keeps and is very biased. — Preceding unsigned comment added by Mabixiyi (talk • contribs) 23:09, 19 October 2011 (UTC)[reply]

List of scientists opposing the mainstream scientific assessment of global warming (talk|edit|history|logs|links|watch) (XfD|restore)

First of all, there were 18 deletes to 15 keeps and most of the keeps were not policy-based, but instead explicitly said they liked it because it promoted their POV. There are several policy-backed arguments for deletion, which the closing admin does not appear to have read or understood given the discussion on his talk page - he seems to be ignorant of WP:POVFORK, for instance, claiming that content is never a reason to delete. Further, the closing admin, instead of judging the consensus, made new (non-policy-backed) arguments not found in the discussion as the reason for this decision, meaning this doesn't seem to have been an actual review of the consensus, but a new keep vote masquerading as a closure.

So, I don't think the closure can be trusted, so let's review the arguments actually made.

This is a WP:POVFORK of the main articles, which we have three other ones of. Compare this article to Global warming controversy#The mainstream scientific position, and challenges to it, where all the arguments in the quotations in this so-called "list" are discussed, the major climate contrariansd are namedd and discussed, and all that you could say, in an NPOV wand sourced way about this subject is put in context in the debate, instead of only presenting one side. Putting a half-arsed explanation of the mainstrream position in (without giving the evidence FOR that position) does not balance the article, or make it anything but a WP:POVPUSHing WP:COATRACK.

There were sources given on the "keep" side, but none of them was a list of this sort, and all they showed was that global warming denial arguments were notable. However, that's why these arguments are covered in great detail in global warming controversy, including naming the notable scientists. NONE of the sources provided was a list of this sort, NONE of the sources provided went into this much detail about the number of specific contrarians, and all the arguments the sources covered are covered in global warming controversy. Insofar this isn't WP:Original research, making a type of list that has not been assembled anywhere else but Wikipedia, this is a WP:POVFORK. Further, such lists are a long-standing tactic in fringe circles, see A_Scientific_Dissent_From_Darwinism (and I believe similar ones have been made for things like smoking supposedly not causing cancer), so we're actually fostering a WP:POVFORK that takes the form of a known type of propoganda, but one which doesn't even have a notable example in this field off-Wikipedia.

After six years, it's time we said enough already 86.** IP (talk) 22:09, 19 October 2011 (UTC)[reply]

• Overturn: Further to the above, consider Wikipedia:Afd#How_an_AfD_discussion_is_closed: "After seven days have passed, the discussion is moved to Wikipedia:Articles for deletion/Old, and an uninvolved (i.e. one who has not participated in the deletion discussion) admin or editor in good standing (observing the recommendations for non-admin closure) will assess the discussion and make a decision to Keep, Delete, Merge, Redirect, or Transwiki the article based on a judgment of the consensus of the discussion. If there has been no obvious consensus to change the status of the article, the person closing the AfD will state No consensus, and the article will be kept". I consider the statement in the closing summary that the closing admin used the featured status of the Global warming article as grounds for a 'keep' decision as tantamount to an admission that he/she based the closure not on a "judgement of the consensus of the discussion", but instead on his/her own judgement of the appropriateness of the article - this would clearly contravene the accepted closure policy. AndyTheGrump (talk) 22:29, 19 October 2011 (UTC)[reply]
• Endorse The main point of the close was that, while the article had issues, they could and should be dealt with by ordinary editing such as RfC, which is now happening. So, the points made against the article were respected and a constructive way forward has been recommended. Whether this is called a Keep or No consensus is just nitpicking - the practical effect is much the same. Also, the DRV nomination above talks of "explicitly said they liked it because it promoted their POV". I'm not seeing where that's coming from. Some editors such as NewsAndEventsGuy and Q Science indicated that they personally disagreed with the scientists but felt that their views should still be recorded. Warden (talk) 22:47, 19 October 2011 (UTC)[reply]

• There is some related discussion on my talkpage: User_talk:SilkTork#List_of_scientists_opposing_the_mainstream_scientific_assessment_of_global_warming. SilkTork ^{✔Tea time} 22:42, 19 October 2011 (UTC)[reply]

• Overturn- I'm not usually a fan of playing the "supervote" card, but this here is a textbook example. The closing administrator made the existence of a related featured article, and his own opinion on MOS:LIST, rationales for keeping when neither of those things had been mentioned in the debate. Those are things you mention in a keep !vote, not in a closing statement. I also feel that SilkTork's reading of the debate was highly one-sided; it does not appear that he has read or properly understood the delete side of the debate. According to SilkTork, one editor who provided some sources was enough to answer the concerns of the other side. But if you actually go and read the debate you'll see that that argument is strongly debated and refuted, on the grounds that it misses the point. I did not participate in the debate and I don't know how I would have voted in it, but it is unacceptable to ignore one side with such disdain. Reyk _YO! 22:42, 19 October 2011 (UTC)[reply]

• Overturn closer seems to have substituted their own opinion for an accurate reading of the discussion. The main thrust of their closing statement is that The main concerns about this article are that it is original research and is not neutral. These are editing issues. However the people arguing that the article should be deleted repeatedly stated that the existence of any article on this topic would be non-neutral and that the OR issues were sufficiently serious that deletion was warranted. The closer should not have substituted their opinion for that of the people commenting in the discussion. The fact that the material under question mostly concerns living people should also have been taken into consideration, but there's no sign that it was. On SilkTork's talk page s/he states that The more I looked into the discussion the more I felt that this was a content issue that should be resolved via other channels. The function of an AfD closer is not to have a "feeling" about something but to judge consensus, the two do not overlap.

  The closing statement also mentions several other factors which were either not brought up in the discussion or which were frankly irrelevant. SilkTork notes that the list appears to meet MOS:LIST, and provides both information and navigation. This issue was not mentioned in the discussion and the fact that a list passes MOS:LIST does not make it encyclopedic. The closing statement also said that The parent article, Global warming, has also been a major cause of concern, but through careful editing (and ArbCom sanctions) is now a Featured Article. (which again was not mentioned in the discussion and is totally irrelevant), that the article is prose linked in related articles on Wikipedia (not just templated) (why is the fact that this article is mentioned in another article relevant?), that Lists by their nature sometimes fly close to OR as there are sometimes no sources available which group items together the way that Wikipedia lists do (which, again was not mentioned in the discussion, and was the personal opinion of the closer).

  86 is not correct to say that debates should not be closed against majority viewpoint, however it is true that several arguments in favour of keeping the article merely stated that the nomination was an attempt to censor critics of global warming. These arguments should have been ignored entirely, however the closing statement implicitly agreed with them: This article has caused concern for some years, though that appears to be due to the controversial nature of the subject matter rather than that it specifically meets deletion criteria. This debate should have been closed as No Consensus or Delete, and a Keep closure cannot be justified on these grounds. Hut 8.5 23:01, 19 October 2011 (UTC)[reply]

List of important publications in sociology (talk|edit|history|logs|links|watch) (XfD|restore)

Such a topic exists and is notable as references do exist, for example:

• [3]
• [4]

Article was deleted because there were no references but this is not a reason for deletion but for fixing. Closing admin was contacted per Step1. Curb Chain (talk) 09:35, 19 October 2011 (UTC)[reply]

Closer's comment: The article was deleted because the selection of "important works" it contained was original research. As I noted on my talk page, the two sources that are now being supplied do not draw this assessment into question, because the works mentioned in these sources appear to be mostly or wholly different from the ones previously mentioned in the article. These sources, therefore, do not justify the restoration of a original research list that is not based on these sources. At most, they justify the recreation of the article in a form that is based on these sources. Even so, I doubt that a university's English-language-only reading list and a selection of publications in Canadian sociology are sufficient to be the basis of a list of the most important publications in all of sociology, from all countries and of all time, but that is an editorial decision.  Sandstein  09:45, 19 October 2011 (UTC)[reply]

• Endorse Inherent OR and subjective calls of what is "important". --Crusio (talk) 10:51, 19 October 2011 (UTC)[reply]
• Relist as incompatible with the later closes in most of the other afds. Though we don't go by precedent, some degree of consistency is important in an encyclopedia. As for the actual merits,, it was fully shown in the afds in general that that these are suitable topics, as documentation of what is considered particularly important is available in all fields. What will be supported by the documentation is a question for the editors of the restored article. We accept selected further reading in articles, and this is really just a break-out. Alternatively, just go ahead with the new list--since the content is admitted to be different, the objections do not apply, and it does not need agreement here--it would require another afd. I think the closer agrees on that--his opinion on the quality of it would be relevant as an argument in such an afd. Nobody is saying the new list is complete, so I don't see how its wrong to make a start & subsequently expand & discuss. DGG ( talk ) 15:48, 19 October 2011 (UTC)[reply]
• Relist - As the list in the original article differed from the list provided in the sources, a recreated article using the sources would be a completely different article. Therefore, I think we need to be able to reconsider the new list, in light of the sources provided. ItsZippy ^{(talk • contributions)} 19:08, 19 October 2011 (UTC)[reply]

I agree that a recreated article using the sources would be a completely different article. But nothing prevents editors from writing that new article. That new article could in turn be made subject to a new AfD, as DGG says above, but I do not see how relisting the discussion about the old article, which is not based on these sources, could help here.  Sandstein  20:41, 19 October 2011 (UTC)[reply]

• Overturn There were 7 keeps and only 2 deletes so to find a consensus for deletion in this is absurd and contrary to WP:DGFA which expects closers to "...respect the judgment and feelings of Wikipedia participants.". The keepers included experienced editors such as DGG, who is a professional librarian at Princeton and so speaks with authority upon the importance of academic publications. The issue of sourcing was well addressed by Mike Cline who pointed to the International bibliography of sociology which seems quite respectable. The result of the other similar AFDs in this spree shows that this was an aberrant close, contrary to the consensus of this and the other discussions. Warden (talk) 22:00, 19 October 2011 (UTC)[reply]