Talk:Fred Sargeant: Difference between revisions

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Medium is a banned source on Wikipedia, as it is a blog. In addition, the Daily News Op-Ed does not say he "condemned trans women". It is not "whitewashing" to remove contributions from banned sources and which do not say what the source says. I will therefore remove it again. Newimpartial, you have never edited this page before, and once again, you are WP:HOUNDING me in retaliation for challenging you. You came here immediately after I made a report about WP:PERSONALATTACKS violations you have made on the Linehan page to an administrator, apparently after checking my user contributions, to begin an edit war with me. You have done this before in retaliation against me when I challenge you. I ask again that you cease. Lilipo25 (talk) 15:57, 28 June 2020 (UTC)[reply]

That is a complete characterization of my activity on WP and a personal attack. Please don't do that.

Medium is not a "banned" source but anyway, I have revised the text and improved the sourcing, using LGBTQ Nation and citing Sargent's Tweet in his own words (which is covered by WP:ABOUTSELF for inclusion and DUE because it is referenced in LGBTQ Nation, a high-quality RS). Newimpartial (talk) 16:44, 28 June 2020 (UTC)[reply]

Newimpartial I have no idea what sources you have used now, as both of your citations show up only as CITE ERRORS. Please cite correctly or remove the content. In addition, LGB Alliance is not an "anti-trans" organization. They are a lesbian and gay rights organization. Lilipo25 (talk) 16:47, 28 June 2020 (UTC)[reply]

Sorry about that; I was trying to follow WP:CITEVAR but was unfamiliar with this page's format. There is no longer a cite error, now. Also, there are multiple RS that label LGB alliance as "anti-transgender", including LGBTQ Nation already cited. I will add another. Newimpartial (talk) 17:17, 28 June 2020 (UTC)[reply]

Although I can now see the sources, they are still showing up with CITE ERRORS attached. The correct citation format is here: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Template:Harvard_citation_no_brackets

I would prefer not to get into yet another edit war with you, but I am sure you know there are many sources which say the Alliance is NOT anti-trans. Please attempt neutrality. Lilipo25 (talk) 17:24, 28 June 2020 (UTC)[reply]

Thanks. Fixed.

So far, I have been unable to find any sources staring that the LGB Alliance is not anti-trans. Could you share what you have? Newimpartial (talk) 17:47, 28 June 2020 (UTC)[reply]

Your Cite Errors are still not all fixed. User:Ucucha/HarvErrors is a tool that lets you see where the errors are happening. Lilipo25 (talk) 17:52, 28 June 2020 (UTC)[reply]

There are numerous sources that say LGB Alliance is not a hate group, but we both know that we have had this discussion many times. You ask for sources, but no matter how many reliable sources are then provided to you, you say they don't count. You use only sources from "LGBT" news sites and websites that will inevitably be against a group that believes transgender activism should be separate from gay and lesbian activism. Lilipo25 (talk) 18:00, 28 June 2020 (UTC)[reply]

Lilipo, I never said that LGB Alliance was a "hate group", so people saying it is "not a hate group" are not relevant. I am not restricting myself to LGBT news sourves, either; the reason I dropped the New York Post is simply because it is a lower-quality source, not because isn't notably queer.

Anyway, I'm not sufficiently technical to use the script but I believe I have fixed the last of the sources I added; at least they each click through perfectly for me. This reminds me of why I disagree on principle with CITEVAR. :(. Newimpartial (talk) 18:07, 28 June 2020 (UTC)[reply]

You almost exclusively use LGBTQ sources when including information about LGB Alliance on Wikipedia, as they are the ones that will say that it's "anti-trans" for lesbians and gays to believe that because transgender is not a sexual orientation, it is a separate cause from theirs. There is no reason to include the LGBTQ Nation characterization of him at all; it would be more appropriate to report that he has supported LGB Alliance and include his statements. You have previously dismissed sources that say LGB Alliance isn't anti-trans, like trans woman Dr. Debbie Hayton's column in the Spectator [1]. This is bias.

You also cannot include in the article statements like "his views came to light after JK Rowling liked one of his tweets". The source doesn't say that, and it makes it sound like his views were a secret that was exposed. In fact, his views had been reported by the media when he first voiced support for LGB Alliance and he had given interviews about them and had been tweeting them for some time already at that point. Lilipo25 (talk) 18:38, 28 June 2020 (UTC)[reply]

The point about "came to light" is valid, so I have amended the text for accuracy. I don't recall ever discussing the Debbie Hayton piece, but it isn't a RS for anything besides her own opinion, which would not be DUE in this article. On the other hand, the LGBTQ Nation piece concerns this article's subject and connects him to the organization which it labels as "anti-transgender". This most certainly is relevant to this article, and DUE as the best RS I've seen that comments on his social media activity. I added the Gaynation cite to pre-empt the objection that only LGBTQ Nation regards the LGB Alliance that way. In fact all RS that I know about use "anti-trans" and similar terms for the LGB Alliance. Newimpartial (talk) 18:46, 28 June 2020 (UTC)[reply]

There were still a number of errors with your sourcing, including the references not being put in alphabetical order and the misspelling of Sargeant's name, which I have fixed. I have also moved the section so that "Personal life" remains last and eliminated the unnecessary source calling him "anti-trans" as it was an opinion that added nothing of value to the article. I changed some minor wording, as well, and used an unbiased news source (The Telegraph) to describe the LGB Alliance, as well as including the full quote of the tweet you had used, but most of your material is still in there. Hopefully, you will accept this as a fair and neutral compromise that adheres to Wikipedia guidelines. Lilipo25 (talk) 21:28, 28 June 2020 (UTC)[reply]

I have re-added LGBTQ Nation as still the best source on the controversy, and replaced the Telegraph material with a more accurate selection from the same source. Tweet left intact. Newimpartial (talk) 21:51, 28 June 2020 (UTC)[reply]

I have left in the LGBTQNation source and the part you added about gay and lesbian attraction being based on biological sex (removed the quotation marks around that as they aren't necessary) but put back in the Alliance's belief that T rights are separate from LGB, which is the main belief on which it is criticized. Lilipo25 (talk) 00:30, 29 June 2020 (UTC)[reply]

Sargeant has started posting pride flag swastikas on twitter (see [2] [3]). No coverage currently, but if this or something similar does get picked up how should it be handled? There is currently a "social media controversy" section, but "controversies" sections should be avoided for BLP where possible.Wikiditm (talk) 07:36, 1 July 2020 (UTC)[reply]

I introduced the "controversies" section as a lesser evil here, since there was RS material that didn't yet carry a more coherent storyline. I would suggest that we stick with that heading until something clearer emerges from the RS, or unless one particular theme gains enough mindspace that it needs a dedicated section. Newimpartial (talk) 11:55, 1 July 2020 (UTC)[reply]

The current wording on LGB alliance controversy reads: "...LGB Alliance, which has generated controversy for advocating the ideas that lesbian, gay and bisexual rights are separate from transgender rights and that lesbian and gay identities are defined by attraction to biological sex rather than gender identity." This is a poor wording for a couple of reasons, in relation to the source used, which is [4]. Firstly, this wording is not really found in the source. It is a very liberal paraphrase of numerous sections, and there is no indication in the source that these are what has generated controversy. Secondly, this source is covering the formation of LGB Alliance, and not the controversy and criticism it subsequently generated, so it cannot be stretched in any reasonable way to support this sort of claim without making substantial inferences bordering on WP:OR. For this reason, I searched for a reliable source which covers specifically the controversy/criticism which LGB Alliance has attracted, and I found this: [5]. The headline is "‘LGB Alliance’ group faces criticism for being transphobic" and there are many more relevant details on this controversy for the interested reader. In order to maintain neutrality and avoid any contribution from personal bias, I decided to reword the sentence copying the reliable source wording as closely as possible. This then read "...LGB Alliance, which has faced criticism for being transphobic." This sentence was then much more concise, accurate, and close to the source, which in turn was more relevant to the claim. I think this is clear improvement over the previous wording for these reasons. This was subsequently reverted shortly with the reason "This is biased and unsupported." which is ridiculous.Wikiditm (talk) 06:41, 2 July 2020 (UTC)[reply]

The Telegraph is a very reliable source and my article paraphrased what it said, which is what we are supposed to do. The paragraph was more than fair and agreed upon. You have never edited this page before and are now engaging in the exact same edit warring and slanting of this article to your POV that you did on the Linehan page. I ask that both you and Newimpartial stop WP:HOUNDING me to other pages I edit and stop tag-teaming me with these edit wars. Please. Lilipo25 (talk) 16:18, 2 July 2020 (UTC)[reply]

Both the Telegraph and the Independent are reliable sources. Rather than edit warring back and forth to use one or the other, why doesn't everyone try to work together on a compromise wording than incorporates information from both? Enough with the reverting - try proposing changes below. GirthSummit _(blether) 16:51, 2 July 2020 (UTC)[reply]

The Telegraph is absolutely a reliable source. My complaint is not that it's not a reliable source, but rather that it isn't relevant to the claim being made. The claim is about the criticism and controversy which LGB Alliance has received. The Telegraph source covers the formation of LGB Alliance, not the subsequent criticism and controversy, and so is not a good source for the claim. The Independent, on the other hand, is explicitly covering the criticism and controversy, and so is perfect for this claim. Further, the paraphrasing of The Telegraph source is poor for the reasons I gave above. It is nonsense to accuse of edit warring when I made a single edit. As per Girth Summit's suggestion above, it is clearly most appropriate for the Independent to be used as a source for the criticism/controversy which LGB Alliance has faced. If you wish to add a sentence to the section which covers the formation of LGB Alliance then it would make sense to source this with the Telegraph.Wikiditm (talk) 17:18, 2 July 2020 (UTC)[reply]

The edit of this section previously agreed upon in the discussion in the "Politics" section above was clear and factual. Wikiditm's edit simply makes the section less clear as it gives no indication of why LGB Alliance is controversial, and it does not say what the source used says (it quotes critics saying the organization is transphobic; it doesn't say it is). Furthermore, the controversy surrounding the LGB Alliance is entirely about its views, which were well covered in the Telegraph article, despite Wikiditm's claim above that they were not. And in Wikiditm's use of the Independent as a source, they made no effort to include those views or the controversy around them, so it makes no sense to claim it is a better source for covering the controversy. Newimpartial had already included the quote from an LGBT source calling Sargent "transphobic", which I had left in as a compromise. Newimpartial agreed with this edit.

We have had this exact same debate over this characterization of LGB Alliance on the Linehan page and it went on for months with the same two editors, along with a third (Bastun) merely tag-teaming anyone who tried to get a non-biased description of LGB Alliance into the article. Repeatedly deleting reliable sources that give clear, concise descriptions of the organization's views in order to just call it "transphobic" is not helpful to readers of the article. Lilipo25 (talk) 17:29, 2 July 2020 (UTC)[reply]

With regards giving an indication of why LGB Alliance is controversial, we could easily use the opening line of the Independent article, which says "heavily criticised for excluding the transgender community, prompting people to label it transphobic." The claim that my edit didn't say what the source says is bizarre. My edit was "LGB Alliance, which has faced criticism for being transphobic." It boggles my mind to suggest that this is not supported by the article "LGB Alliance group faces criticism for being transphobic." As above, though, if you want to include a sentence on the formation or views of LGB Alliance, it makes absolute sense to me that this would bounce of the Telegraph article. Finally, I think it's worth noting a distinction between wikipedia calling LGB Alliance transphobic, and acknowledging that reliable sources call the group transphobic.Wikiditm (talk) 17:42, 2 July 2020 (UTC)[reply]

Lilipo, please AGF. This article does call primarily for "clear, concise descriptions of the organization's views" based on spokespeople for the organization itself; this article needs to answer from an NPOV perspective why it is that Fred Sargeant's support for the LGB Alliance on social media is controversial. It is only the controversy, as documented in RS, that makes inclusion of Sargeant's tweets DUE for inclusion. Every time you edit to tone down or whitewash these reasons, you undermine the NPOV of the article through undue deference to the subject and those he allies himself with. A source that directly addresses the reason the organization's views are controversial simply trumps a source that simply repeats the aims of the founders, for purposes of this article. If you want to create an LGB Alliance article, the Telegraph source would be appropriate for that. Newimpartial (talk) 18:40, 2 July 2020 (UTC)[reply]

Wikiditm, it's more subtle than that. The Independent does not say that LGB Alliance is transphobic - it says that other people have accused it of that. Whatever content is added to the article based on these sources ought to worded carefully in order to reflect that - it has been accused of whatever, not that it is whatever. I don't understand why you are continuing to edit back and forth on this, removing perfectly good sources, rather than proposing content and discussing it. GirthSummit _(blether) 18:46, 2 July 2020 (UTC)[reply]

The article says "LGB Alliance group faces criticism for being transphobic." My edit read "LGB Alliance, which has faced criticism for being transphobic." Yes, the my wording is supported by the source. It is absurd to claim that there is any meaningful difference between those two wordings apart from a change of tense. The accusation that I am "continuing to edit back and forth on this" is false. I have made a single edit. I ignored your previous implication that I was edit warring, but now you have repeated it so I feel the need to address. Please retract that comment.Wikiditm (talk) 18:59, 2 July 2020 (UTC)[reply]