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::I propose to solve the issue that this misplaced statement by flyer 22 "However a wife or female partner is more commonly the victim of such abuse, worldwide" be put in the section of the article on gender? It seems strangely placed in the paragraph currently? I will boldly move this sentence into the more appropriate section in the article on gender. Thanks.[[User:Charlotte135|Charlotte135]] ([[User talk:Charlotte135|talk]]) 00:33, 22 October 2015 (UTC)
::I propose to solve the issue that this misplaced statement by flyer 22 "However a wife or female partner is more commonly the victim of such abuse, worldwide" be put in the section of the article on gender? It seems strangely placed in the paragraph currently? I will boldly move this sentence into the more appropriate section in the article on gender. Thanks.[[User:Charlotte135|Charlotte135]] ([[User talk:Charlotte135|talk]]) 00:33, 22 October 2015 (UTC)
:::It appears this article has suffered in the past from parties like flyer22 and others, feuding over gender issues, which should not be the case![[User:Charlotte135|Charlotte135]] ([[User talk:Charlotte135|talk]]) 00:37, 22 October 2015 (UTC)
::It appears this article has suffered in the past from parties like flyer22 and others, feuding over gender issues, which should not be the case![[User:Charlotte135|Charlotte135]] ([[User talk:Charlotte135|talk]]) 00:37, 22 October 2015 (UTC)

:::The "a wife or female partner is more commonly the victim" bit was already in the lead, and I did not add it. I tweaked it, and added references to it because of the redundant "both genders" text [https://en.wikipedia.org/w/index.php?title=Domestic_violence&diff=686758266&oldid=686753133 you added] in front of it and because of the silly "citation needed" tag [https://en.wikipedia.org/w/index.php?title=Domestic_violence&diff=686762941&oldid=686761758 you added] to it; I was [https://en.wikipedia.org/w/index.php?title=Talk:Domestic_violence&diff=686782611&oldid=686781198 clear above] that I sourced that sentence and why. That sentence belongs in the lead, per [[WP:Lead]], which states in part, "[The lead] should define the topic, establish context, explain why the topic is notable, and summarize the most important points, including any prominent controversies." '''That domestic violence disproportionately affects women is lead material''', and the text is placed in a paragraph specifically about who is affected by domestic violence and the prevalence of domestic violence; so calling it "misplaced" is nothing but more of your bias showing through. That domestic violence disproportionately affects women is already covered lower, so it does not need to be placed in the Gender aspects section. And before [https://en.wikipedia.org/w/index.php?title=Domestic_violence&diff=686890549&oldid=686782938 your recent change to that sentence], it stated, "Although men, women and children can be victims of domestic violence, a wife or female partner is more commonly the victim of such abuse, worldwide." There was nothing misleading about that sentence, as is clear by the sources supporting it. I added the "although" wording because that domestic violence affects men, women and children is already made clear by the first paragraph, as you [https://en.wikipedia.org/w/index.php?title=Domestic_violence&diff=686890549&oldid=686782938 surely know]. That makes the "Domestic violence affects men, women and children." sentence redundant. That is the sentence that should be removed. When it stated "Domestic violence affects both genders.", not only was that redundant, it left out "children" and made it seem that gender is strictly binary these days; as is clear by [[genderqueer]] and [[third gender]] topics, it isn't. So the wording would have been more accurate as "Domestic violence affects men and women.", which I thought about adding. Then I opted to add "children." And now it's [https://en.wikipedia.org/w/index.php?title=Domestic_violence&diff=686900559&oldid=686893365 changed again].

:::As for your assertion that "this article has suffered in the past from parties like flyer22," I suggest you point to an example of the article having suffered because of me. I do not consider adhering to the [[WP:Due weight]] policy and following other Wikipedia policies and guidelines ingredients that make an article suffer. And, yes, it indeed should not be the case that editors come to this article seeking to [[WP:Valid|give false balance to things]]; you know, like you've been doing. [[User:Flyer22|Flyer22]] ([[User talk:Flyer22|talk]]) 01:45, 22 October 2015 (UTC)

Revision as of 01:45, 22 October 2015

Template:Men's rights article probation (portions)

Template:Vital article

Former featured article candidateDomestic violence is a former featured article candidate. Please view the links under Article milestones below to see why the nomination was archived. For older candidates, please check the archive.
Article milestones
DateProcessResult
November 4, 2006Featured article candidateNot promoted


Factor: education-difference between spouses

I read an abstract once of a study saying women with higher education married to men with lower education than them had higher risk of being abused. Does anyone happen to have the citation of this? (I know the reverse seems to be the case in Bangladesh[1], so presumably there's some confounding factor here.) — Preceding unsigned comment added by Kiwibird (talk • contribs) 08:03, 24 February 2009‎ (UTC)[reply]

Ah, now I found it. Martin (2007)[2] , cites Johnson (2003)[3] as saying that "women with higher education were at greater risk of being physically and sexually assaulted by their partners", although other studies have also shown that unemployed women are at higher risk of marital rape, not sure how to interpret all this. (Martin 2007 seems to be a very good review.)

References

  1. ^ http://muse.jhu.edu/journals/demography/v040/40.2koenig.html
  2. ^ Elaine K. Martin, Casey T. Taft, Patricia A. Resick, A review of marital rape, Aggression and Violent Behavior, Volume 12, Issue 3, May-June 2007, Pages 329-347, ISSN 1359-1789, DOI: 10.1016/j.avb.2006.10.003. http://www.sciencedirect.com/science/article/B6VH7-4MM95WJ-1/2/c7a5b2cdc68b6cb4cc0ff35af32637d0
  3. ^ Holly Johnson. (2003). The cessation of assaults on wives*. Journal of Comparative Family Studies: Violence Against Women in the Family, 34(1), 75-91. Retrieved February 24, 2009, from Academic Research Library database. (Document ID: 344327771). http://proquest.umi.com/pqdlink?did=344327771&Fmt=7&clientId=32064&RQT=309&VName=PQD

Seriously?

TWELVE percent of SWISS women suffered sexual abuse? Seriously? That's encyclopedic statistics? Based on a Penguin book? In my modest vocabulary that is called typical feminist BS. Le Grand Bleu (talk) 12:37, 28 September 2015 (UTC)[reply]

Wikipedia Primary School invitation

Hi everybody. On behalf of the teams behind the Wikipedia Primary School research project, I would like to announce that this article was selected a while ago to be reviewed by an external expert. Unfortunately, the expert who had agreed to review had to decline later on. Our first call for community review was already 6 months ago and since then the article has changed quite a lot. We have identified another expert to help review the article. We would like to ask interested editors to join our efforts and improve the article before October 31, 2015 (any timezone) as they see fit; a revision will be then sent to the designated expert for review. Any notes and remarks written by the external expert will be made available on this page under a CC-BY-SA license as soon as possible, so that you can read them, discuss them and then decide if and how to use them. Please sign up here to let us know you're collaborating. Thanks a lot for your support! --Anthere (talk) 14:32, 16 October 2015 (UTC)[reply]

Claim about male self overestimating

User:Antizepho added the following sentence to the "Gender aspects" section: "However, Straus, designer of the conflict tactics scale (CTS), argues the opposite; that men underestimate their partner's violence and overestimate their own." This was cited to two papers by Straus. Both papers seem to say the opposite of what they are being cited for. The first paper says "Most studies have shown little difference in prevalence rates reported by males and females (Archel; 2000). However, enough studies have shown a tendency for males to underreport both perpetration and victimization to make it desirable to test both partners or if that is not possible, to exercise caution in conclusions based on the report of only one partner." The second paper says "In addition, a meta-analysis (Archer 1999) found that although both men and women underreport, the extent of underreporting is greater for men." This seems to be a serious mis-representation of the sources. Kaldari (talk) 23:08, 16 October 2015 (UTC)[reply]

Yes, judging by that edit (which I tweaked and commented on) and this one (which I tweaked and commented on) at the Domestic violence in lesbian relationships article, it appears that Antizepho (talk · contribs) wants to drive home the notion that women are more violent than men. As you know, we get these types of editors from time to time, which is why portions of this article have been placed on article probation: Talk:Men's rights movement/Article probation. I don't think that Antizepho is a new Wikipedia editor (at least not a completely new one), but he is obviously more than free to explain himself here at this talk page. And it's obviously good that you tackled this matter and fixed this other one. Flyer22 (talk) 23:34, 16 October 2015 (UTC)[reply]
@Flyer22: Hello. I added this because it was the same on a different Wikipedia page on the same topic (the claim followed by the counter-claim), and on this page there was only the initial claim, so I thought added the Straus mention was a good idea. I admit I assumed the sources supported the claim but did not check. I don't try to "drive the point that women are more violent than men", I ended up on Wikipedia after reading the CDC's report and felt it was important and relevant to mention the recent findings since they are so counter-intuitive. Thanks User:Kaldari for fixing it, I apologize for the mistake. I'll probably refrain from further posting to Wikipedia from now on, It sounds like too much work (good on you for doing it). Oh and by the way, since the sources don't support the claim that men over-report then there's another page (I can't remember which one) where the mistake still exists, I don't know if Wikipedia provides a tool that would help finding where. Antizepho (talk) 12:44, 17 October 2015 (UTC)[reply]
Antizepho (talk · contribs), when you stated "I added this" above, you must have been only talking about the edit Kaldari reverted. Either way, your edits to two different articles under the Antizepho account thus far seem to focus on painting women as the more abusive gender/men as the more victimized gender, which is at odds with what the literature on domestic violence usually reports. That type of editing always gives me pause because it's usually always coming from a specific type of editor, the type Wikipedia has repeatedly sanctioned. And the format of your reply to me has further convinced that you are not a complete WP:Newbie. But I'm not heavily concerned about this matter, and at least you took the time to reply. Flyer22 (talk) 13:28, 17 October 2015 (UTC)[reply]
It looks like Antizepho is correct. The claim was originally in the Domestic violence against men article, which is full of misinformation. Kaldari (talk) 15:38, 17 October 2015 (UTC)[reply]
How is the article full of misinformation? Does not seem to be misinformation but quite accurate. Interested if you could objectively qualify your statement?Charlotte135 (talk) 01:57, 21 October 2015 (UTC)[reply]
Charlotte135 (talk · contribs), this addition you made is not WP:Lead material, and I will be removing it unless you can provide a valid reason for why that statistic should remain in the lead, which is meant to summarize the article. And, as you know, I reverted you here, with a followup note about a previous edit you made. You then re-added the material, and I reverted again. This is not the right article to pushing your WP:Valid violations. No Wikipedia article is. Flyer22 (talk) 02:37, 21 October 2015 (UTC)[reply]
Calm down flyer and be civil. Give me a day and I will provide a source. Don't just delete valid referenced inclusions please. Also you state DV is a gender issue? Why would you say that? Clearly it is not a gender issue.Charlotte135 (talk) 02:41, 21 October 2015 (UTC)[reply]
A fluffy media report about claims made "by the men's rights campaign group Parity" does not satisfy WP:RS for edits which seek to overturn conventional (and sourced) understanding of a topic. Johnuniq (talk) 02:47, 21 October 2015 (UTC)[reply]
This statistic was reported over a 6 year period by the Home office? What are you talking about? In fact it is often higher than 40%!Charlotte135 (talk) 03:34, 21 October 2015 (UTC)[reply]
Charlotte135 (talk · contribs), you talk like you are familiar with me. Usually, only those who have interacted with me for a significant amount of time call me "Flyer" as opposed to "Flyer22." Perhaps you know of my frustration regarding editors violating the WP:Neutral policy (including WP:Valid) and other policies all just to present men and women as equally affected by domestic violence? I obviously alluded to that frustration above. Either way, I replied to you at my talk page regarding your editing and the issue of domestic violence being a gender issue. The Gender aspects section of the article and the article as a whole are quite clear that domestic violence is a gender issue. Flyer22 (talk) 02:58, 21 October 2015 (UTC)[reply]
No, I dont know you flyer22! This is not personal. Just trying to represent the 30-50% of men that are also affected by DV. I have changed the wording to appease you both. The current wording seems biased and very much underestimates the large numbers of men also affected by DV. Is this OK?Charlotte135 (talk) 03:39, 21 October 2015 (UTC)[reply]
Can we introduce some actual stats from around the world to support the absolute fact that if at least a third of DV cases are women against men? for neutral point of view?Charlotte135 (talk) 03:41, 21 October 2015 (UTC)[reply]
Charlotte135 (talk · contribs), being familiar with me is not the same thing as knowing me. The statistic you added will be removed from the lead because not only is it not WP:Lead material, the statistics for domestic violence vary. The current lead is not biased to those who actually adhere to the WP:Due weight policy. The section and other parts of the article have your answer for why the lead is clear that "Globally, a wife or female partner is more commonly the victim of domestic violence." And because the lead states "although the victim can also be the male partner, or both partners may engage in abusive or violent behavior", your addition about domestic violence affecting both genders is unnecessary/redundant. Flyer22 (talk) 03:49, 21 October 2015 (UTC)[reply]

Any reasons we cannot introduce some statistics? to represent the significant percentage of men affected, particularly given the huge under reporting by men in western societies. Please don't remove referenced material either I dont want to edit war. Lets seek some dispute resolution instead. Seem fair flyer 22?Charlotte135 (talk) 03:53, 21 October 2015 (UTC)[reply]

Removed, per what I stated above. Flyer22 (talk) 04:01, 21 October 2015 (UTC)[reply]
Gosh, you ignored my sincere option of dispute resolution and prefer to edit war it seems. I wont partake in edit warring. Will report it instead. Any response to my questions. currently this paragraph is extremely biased! Charlotte135 (talk) 04:04, 21 October 2015 (UTC)[reply]
If I ignored you, you ignored me, including what I stated about the WP:Due weight policy; you clearly do not comprehend that policy. Feel free to take the matter to dispute resolution; I will not be joining you there unless necessary. My sources would be head-over-heels superior to yours anyway. Also feel free to report me for reverting you. Flyer22 (talk) 04:09, 21 October 2015 (UTC)[reply]
Double gosh!! You saying "My sources would be head-over-heels superior to yours anyway." seems a little bit demeaning and belittling to me! Will you apologize please?Charlotte135 (talk) 04:20, 21 October 2015 (UTC)[reply]
This edit also shows that you shouldn't be editing this article, at least in the way you've been editing it. Do you not see the 2013 review (which men's rights activists love to cite) in the Gender aspects section? It states, "if one looks at who is physically harmed and how seriously, who expresses more fear, who has psychological problems following abuse, domestic violence is significantly gendered and women suffer the most; however, going by their broader paradigm, 'partner abuse can no longer be conceived as merely a gender problem, but also (and perhaps primarily) as a human and relational problem, and should be framed as such by everyone concerned.'" Various WP:Reliable sources are clear that women are the more injured gender. How many such sources should I list here at this talk page for you to get the point on that? Flyer22 (talk) 04:21, 21 October 2015 (UTC)[reply]
Triple gosh!!!! What type of violence? You are focusing on physical violence! What about all the other types of Domesti9c Violence! That hand picked quote is biased and focuses on physical violence to the detriment of all other forms! Again I probably didnt see the mensrights article because I am not coming from a mens rights perspective! for the last time!Charlotte135 (talk) 04:31, 21 October 2015 (UTC)[reply]
It is well-acknowledged in the literature that women are more physically harmed by domestic violence than men are, especially in heterosexual relationships; the source was reporting on that aspect in addition to other material. Common sense should tell you that we are supposed to report on that aspect in the article, and we clearly do elsewhere in the article, including with the aforementioned 2013 review. You removed the quoted material on a WP:IDON'TLIKEIT basis, all to further your goal to make it seem like men and women are equally affected by domestic violence with no known differences. Flyer22 (talk) 04:44, 21 October 2015 (UTC)[reply]

Yes, but the sentence and statistic is talking about all forms of DV not just physical....."indicated that rates of domestic violence are roughly equal between men and women." ... Domestic violence can take a number of forms Flyer 22, as you obviously know, including physical, verbal, emotional, economic and sexual abuse why are you focusing on physical violence? that sentence is talking about all forms of DV not just physical. Why then would we include an abstract quote about physical violence and men being bigger? Why are you so focused on the physical? Lets keep this article about all forms of DV balanced please flyer 22. sound fair?Charlotte135 (talk) 05:05, 21 October 2015 (UTC)[reply]

I'm tired of responding to you. It's like you fail to grasp everything. For example, I am not "so focused on the physical." You are wasting my time. I care not that you consider my tone non-WP:Civil; it is what it is. Flyer22 (talk) 05:21, 21 October 2015 (UTC)[reply]
Please dont keep making this personal flyer22, and just focus on editing wikipedia please. Obviously my edits are sound and based on logic and policy not feminism or mensrights. Anyone can read my reasoning for this edit outlined clearly above.Charlotte135 (talk) 05:27, 21 October 2015 (UTC)[reply]
In what way are your edits based on policy? You do not understand Wikipedia policy. You cite it, yes, but that is because you are not a WP:Newbie. And do spare me any claim that you are entirely new to editing Wikipedia; you are not. You can also drop the "Flyer22" bit; we both know you simply want to call me "Flyer." Anyway, all inappropriate edits you make to this site will eventually be reverted. Like I stated, you are wasting my time, including by requesting a citation for this bit. That is already sourced lower in the article. Per WP:LEADCITE, the lead does not necessarily need to be sourced if the content is sourced lower in the article. If I am making anything personal, it's because I am focused on your editing, which leaves much to be desired. Flyer22 (talk) 05:42, 21 October 2015 (UTC)[reply]
I went ahead and sourced the text anyway. It clearly needs it since certain types of editors will keep challenging it. Flyer22 (talk) 07:57, 21 October 2015 (UTC)[reply]
Typo fix here. Flyer22 (talk) 08:10, 21 October 2015 (UTC)[reply]

Domestic violence affects both genders and children

I included statement "Domestic violence affects both genders" to appease other editors. I have not said "equally" or even "significantly" but we need to qualify this paragraph. At least a third of all DV is women against men. And that is very conservative. We cant be distorting or skewing things, regardless of your frustration flyer 22. Does this sound fair? Lets get a good outcome here.Charlotte135 (talk) 03:46, 21 October 2015 (UTC)[reply]

Charlotte135 (talk · contribs), I already replied to you above. I do not distort or skew facts, but it appears you do. Flyer22 (talk) 03:51, 21 October 2015 (UTC)[reply]
I was not accusing you of skewing I was saying the way it is currently worded is very very biased and skewed toward women! Please dont accuse me personally though. Please be civil flyer 22. Thanks. Charlotte135 (talk) 03:55, 21 October 2015 (UTC)[reply]
Editors should agree to play the game and be civil (as has occurred), but let's not beat around the bush: your account has under forty edits and is just over two weeks old, and your edits in this topic focus on men's rights activism—see WP:MRMPS. Such activism has not taken over this article in the past and is unlikely to be successful in the future. Johnuniq (talk) 04:13, 21 October 2015 (UTC)[reply]
Not at all! please dont go accusing me of that. How? please dont make this personal. That is ridiculous and very biased. Its like saying all your edits are from the feminist movement! How have you come to your subjective accusation. Stats clearly indicate anywhere between 30 & 50% are men. I have no affiliations or interest in any men's groups. However the paragrapgh is terribly biased. Can we get some dispute resolution instead?Charlotte135 (talk) 04:18, 21 October 2015 (UTC)[reply]
I removed this hand picked sentence ..."largely because men are stronger on average than women" thats not true necessaarily. Many women are much stronger than men too! seems very biased and non neutral. removed.Charlotte135 (talk) 04:24, 21 October 2015 (UTC)[reply]
An improper removal. The literature thoroughly supports that material (of which gender is more injured). Flyer22 (talk) 04:29, 21 October 2015 (UTC)[reply]
Domestic violence can take a number of forms including physical, verbal, emotional, economic and sexual abuse why are you focusing on physical violence? that sentence is talking about all forms of DV not just physical. You see?Charlotte135 (talk) 04:34, 21 October 2015 (UTC)[reply]
The sentence says .."A 2010 review article entitled "Are Men the More Belligerent Sex?" in Scientific American indicated that rates of domestic violence are roughly equal between men and women." why then would we include an abstract quote about physical violence and men being bigger? My removal is sound!Charlotte135 (talk) 04:36, 21 October 2015 (UTC)[reply]
Replied above. Keep the issue in one section. There is no need to reply in two different sections about these topics. Flyer22 (talk) 04:48, 21 October 2015 (UTC)[reply]
I agree. You have responded in 2 different sections. Please apply my response above to your questioning.Charlotte135 (talk) 05:01, 21 October 2015 (UTC)[reply]

I have removed the misleading language of "although...." written by flyer 22. Replaced it with the balanced, neutral statement "Domestic violence affects men, women and children." This seems much more neutral for Wikipedia. Stating the fact. Hope this is ok. Maybe we can discuss and compromise please? But please don't discount or attack me for simply attempting to bring to light the fact that DV is not gender based, but affects both men, women and children. In many reliable sources men & women seem to be affected equally. In other sections of the article this fact is included. Therefore it seems the article is currently suffering from internal conflict where statements in different sections contradict each other? Lets discuss in a civil, respectful manner.Charlotte135 (talk) 00:20, 22 October 2015 (UTC)[reply]

I propose to solve the issue that this misplaced statement by flyer 22 "However a wife or female partner is more commonly the victim of such abuse, worldwide" be put in the section of the article on gender? It seems strangely placed in the paragraph currently? I will boldly move this sentence into the more appropriate section in the article on gender. Thanks.Charlotte135 (talk) 00:33, 22 October 2015 (UTC)[reply]
It appears this article has suffered in the past from parties like flyer22 and others, feuding over gender issues, which should not be the case!Charlotte135 (talk) 00:37, 22 October 2015 (UTC)[reply]
The "a wife or female partner is more commonly the victim" bit was already in the lead, and I did not add it. I tweaked it, and added references to it because of the redundant "both genders" text you added in front of it and because of the silly "citation needed" tag you added to it; I was clear above that I sourced that sentence and why. That sentence belongs in the lead, per WP:Lead, which states in part, "[The lead] should define the topic, establish context, explain why the topic is notable, and summarize the most important points, including any prominent controversies." That domestic violence disproportionately affects women is lead material, and the text is placed in a paragraph specifically about who is affected by domestic violence and the prevalence of domestic violence; so calling it "misplaced" is nothing but more of your bias showing through. That domestic violence disproportionately affects women is already covered lower, so it does not need to be placed in the Gender aspects section. And before your recent change to that sentence, it stated, "Although men, women and children can be victims of domestic violence, a wife or female partner is more commonly the victim of such abuse, worldwide." There was nothing misleading about that sentence, as is clear by the sources supporting it. I added the "although" wording because that domestic violence affects men, women and children is already made clear by the first paragraph, as you surely know. That makes the "Domestic violence affects men, women and children." sentence redundant. That is the sentence that should be removed. When it stated "Domestic violence affects both genders.", not only was that redundant, it left out "children" and made it seem that gender is strictly binary these days; as is clear by genderqueer and third gender topics, it isn't. So the wording would have been more accurate as "Domestic violence affects men and women.", which I thought about adding. Then I opted to add "children." And now it's changed again.
As for your assertion that "this article has suffered in the past from parties like flyer22," I suggest you point to an example of the article having suffered because of me. I do not consider adhering to the WP:Due weight policy and following other Wikipedia policies and guidelines ingredients that make an article suffer. And, yes, it indeed should not be the case that editors come to this article seeking to give false balance to things; you know, like you've been doing. Flyer22 (talk) 01:45, 22 October 2015 (UTC)[reply]
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