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– This request has been open for some time and must be reviewed.

Have you discussed this on a talk page?

Yes, I have discussed this issue on a talk page already.

Location of dispute

• Talk:Liverpool F.C.–Manchester United F.C. rivalry#Honours Count? (edit | subject | history | links | watch | logs)

Users involved

• Chrisuae (talk · contribs)
• PeeJay2K3 (talk · contribs)
• Autonova (talk · contribs)

Dispute overview

There is a table in the article in the Football rivalry section that was un-referenced and disagreed with other sources. I added references to football governing bodies FIFA and UEFA, plus the official Liverpool FC and Manchester United websites and some major media sites and mentioned the subtle differences of opinion on these sites. I believe this removed the bias inherent in the article.

User PeeJay2K3 disagreed and reverted the edits with different reasons each time. I attempted to address these reasons on the talk page and received 3rd party backing for using FIFA and UEFA as references.

In the latest change, the user has removed these references and reverted to the original table but added citations to the official club websites that do not match its content. References to FIFA, UEFA and major media sites were removed as was the paragraph mentioning the subtle differences in their data.

Have you tried to resolve this previously?

I have attempted to address the concerns of the other user regarding formatting while still maintaining neutral and factual language and the references.

How do you think we can help?

Please provide guidance on the use of FIFA, UEFA and the official club websites as valid references. Also provide guidance on the use of the paragraph mentioning the subtle differences in the data provided by these sources.

The original table may have been unreferenced, but now it is not. I firmly believe that objections were raised to the original table because it happened to place Manchester United ahead of Liverpool in terms of the number of honours the two clubs have won. Other editors have attempted to modify this by arbitrarily deciding that some honours are "major" and others not, picking and choosing from various sources such that their POV appears to be supported. As I have stated on the article talk page, different sources consider different competitions "major" and "minor", some do not distinguish at all. I even provided a source that accurately reflected the article as it was before this lame dispute started. But apparently the idea that Manchester United is a more successful club than Liverpool is one that some people just can't handle. – PeeJay 21:23, 19 July 2015 (UTC)[reply]

Further minor addition: I also believe that this article is not the place to determine the major/minor nature of any competitions. If such categorisation must take place, it should be done at a WikiProject-wide level, not just this one article. – PeeJay 21:25, 19 July 2015 (UTC)[reply]

I edited the article on 13/01/15 to mention that, of the total trophies both teams have won, some of them are considered "major trophies" by the general football community, and I backed up this statement with five reliable sources. Please note, I did not remove any content, I merely added this distinction within the total count. After a revert war between PeeJay and myself, I took the issue to the talk page, where users PeeJay2k3, Chrisuae, Adnan n2 and myself discussed how to proceed. We decided not to use the five sources I originally used, but rather the two clubs' official sites (both of which make the same major trophies distinction). However, this was deemed liable to bias, so Chrisuae and I agreed on using the official FIFA website as the source, since it is neutral and the most authoritative football source (this source, again, makes the same major trophies distinction). User PeeJay2K3's position is that the major trophies distinction is based on cherrypicked sources, and that no distinction should be made, citing a single article from the BBC which includes the pre-season one-match event Community Shield among the other trophies (this is the only source yet mentioned which does not mention the major trophies distinction). Since Chrisuae and I agreed on the FIFA source, Chrisuae edited the article to include an updated table, and many other sources for neutrality, which include slightly different major trophies distinctions - including PeeJay's favoured BBC source. PeeJay has since ignored all discussion, and gone back to reverting edits, removing the distinction, thus preserving Man Utd's image in the article as the team with the most trophies, as was the case back in January. With all due respect to PeeJay, it should be noted that he/she is a Man Utd fan, as seen on the user's talk page. Their edits are ignoring the agreement reached in the discussion, removing relevant, sourced content which improves the article, and presenting a biased point of view. Autonova (talk) 21:29, 19 July 2015 (UTC)[reply]

It should be noted that Chrisuae's edit (here: [1]), which I agreed with and supported in the talk page, concluded with "In the absence of any definitive measure of historical success, both clubs can legitimately claim the to be 'the greatest English football club'." It uses the FIFA reference for the comparison table, and includes nine others, which give slightly different views on which trophies to consider in each clubs' total. It should also be noted that of these nine sources, only the BBC source lists Manchester United as having a higher tally, and this is the source which PeeJay is citing. If PeeJay was fundamentally against the major trophy distinction, why not use these Telegraph sources ([2], [3]), which include all division titles, and list Liverpool at 65 and Manchester United at 62? Surely this would be a more logical source, by that argument? Autonova (talk) 21:59, 19 July 2015 (UTC)[reply]

• Volunteer note - There has been extended discussion at the article talk page, so that this issue does appear to be ripe for moderated discussion. I am neither accepting nor declining this case. Robert McClenon (talk) 21:25, 19 July 2015 (UTC)[reply]

– Discussion in progress.

Have you discussed this on a talk page?

Yes, I have discussed this issue on a talk page already.

Location of dispute

• Talk:Dictatorship of the proletariat#Proposed content changes (edit | subject | history | links | watch | logs)

Users involved

• Kravietz (talk · contribs)
• GeneralizationsAreBad (talk · contribs)
• My very best wishes (talk · contribs)
• Zozs (talk · contribs)
• Bobrayner (talk · contribs)

Dispute overview

The article describes the marxist term of dictatorship of the proletariat in comprehensive way, starting from its introduction by Marx and Engels, what they intended it to be, then how other marxists interpreted it and what happened to it in practice.

An IP user (or group of) introduced very significant changes to the article, essentially reducing it to a very limited interpretation of what Marx might have meant originally, removing large parts of the article on the basis that they are not part of this particular interpreation.

These changes have been continously reverted by several editors over the period of last year, but the IP users kept restoring them until we asked for full article protection. The article was however protected in the IP-introduced version, which is currently simply confusing (with claims like "dictatorship is democratic", which contradicts any mainstream definition of democracy). There is also some own research and questionable sources used.

The IP users happily take on an ideological discussion on the talk page, but they have not picked up any of the proposed changes, which doesn't really bring us closer to any consensus and lifting the protection.

Have you tried to resolve this previously?

Asked admin for article protection, started sockpuppetry investigation.

How do you think we can help?

Help agree on the consensus on how the article should look like and whether the questionable statements should remain in the protected version.

This is basically an edit war over content. I didn't come over to the page until July 14, when I saw a very large change made to the page. As it involved what was (in my opinion) an unwarranted deletion of content and some questionable wording ("inherently democratic"), I reverted it. In hindsight, this was a mistake on my part. 189.68.223.213 reverted me, saying, "Discuss any radical changes in the talk page." The IP was attempting to include major bold edits in the article, and Kravietz was trying to remove them. The page soon received page protection, and looking back, I could see that there has been an extensive edit war over this wording involving these users and others. There were clearly some major 3RR and BRD issues going on, and I wrote my opinion on the disputed edit. The talk page became an unhelpful forum, and I essentially gave up. Then, I saw the announcement of a (currently-stalled) SPI and this DRN post, so I came here. That basically sums it up. GAB (talk) 14:56, 22 July 2015 (UTC)[reply]

This is a typical behavior problem that comes from only one participant: an IP who does nothing but edit war and arguments on this page (see this history). As clear from edit history of the page [4] he edit war alone against several long-term contributors. This page should be simply semi-protected, nothing else. No one should waste their time here. Given no disagreements between other currently active participants, I would expect this page be fixed very quickly when protection expires. As a note of order, I did not edit this page so far, but only made a few comments on this article talk page.My very best wishes (talk) 19:03, 22 July 2015 (UTC)[reply]

I can see that user Zozs came back after a two-month break to comment on the SPI [5] and here. OK, in response to his comments below, I must tell that no, according to multiple RS that have been partly provided in this article and talk page, this not a theoretical, but a practical concept, implemented in many countries, although not exactly as was envisioned by Marx. Actually, it has never been a purely theoretical concept because Paris Commune was very much real and served as a prototype of the "proletarian dictatorship" for Marx. My very best wishes (talk) 22:55, 24 July 2015 (UTC)[reply]

The dictatorship of the proletariat (DOTP) is a Marxist concept which belongs to theory. Therefore the lead has to explain the conception of the DOTP theoretically. In theory it is a "It is a democratic state where the whole of the public authority is elected and recallable under the basis of universal suffrage"; this is true according to reliable sources which examined Marx and Engels' viewpoints in the matter -- sources which are cited and which have been tried to eliminated by other editors through tagteaming and edit warring. For example, Kravietz gave up debating me on the issue and then started edit warring to get his version through. Later others joined. I was the only one who had debated the issue (on Kravietz's talk page) -- everyone else simply reverted. That exposes the illegitimate behaviour of the other editors here.

The sections "Banning of opposition parties and factions", "Stalinism and 'dictatorship'" and "Post-Stalin" should be removed as-is. They are only a copy-paste of Russian history; in none of the sentences contained in these sections it is explained how these actions were related to the DOTP. Nor do any of the sources say that such actions were done because of the concept of DOTP. Therefore it is only an original research attempt to stain the name of DOTP. They should either be removed or information should be added on how such actions are considered a follow-up of DOTP idea by historians.

In any case the lead must explain what the concept "DOTP" means in Marxist theory -- which others here have tried to purge, for ideological reasons (anyone who knows the Wikipedia history of these illegitimate editors knows their political bias and their tagteaming/editwarring in all articles), despite the fact that reliable sources state the contrary. Zozs (talk) 14:55, 24 July 2015 (UTC)[reply]

My Very Best Wishes is right. This is simply the result of tendentious editing by one anonymous editor (before that, by Zozs, who stopped their editwarring just before the IP started). I note that Zozs' previous account editwarred on related articles. The WP:WRONGVERSION has now been protected. We should return to the previous version, which is not only based on sources, but also supported by the existing consensus among editors. DR is not a last chance for POV-pushers who hammered the revert button and found that everybody else disagreed with them. bobrayner (talk) 00:11, 23 July 2015 (UTC)[reply]

Volunteer's Note: Welcome to the Dispute Resolution Noticeboard. I'm neither taking this case nor opening it for discussion at this time, but just reminding the filing editor that it is his obligation to notify the other participants of this filing by leaving a note on their user talk pages. The template mentioned at the top of this page can be used for that purpose or a custom-written note. If those notices are not given in the next two or three days — and placing a notice on the article talk page will not suffice — this listing will be closed as abandoned. Also, please note that everyone substantially involved in the discussion, including IP editors, must be included in the party list, above, and notified. Unless proven at SPI (and it appears that the recent case filed there has already been closed), please do not list nonparties who you believe to be sockmasters of IP editors, list only the IP editors. Regards, TransporterMan (TALK) 13:37, 22 July 2015 (UTC) (DRN volunteer)[reply]

Thanks, I have notified everyone involved, including User:Zozs and all the IPs because it's not yet confirmed that they are the same person, and all of them contributed to the article (even thought their edits were mostly identical). Kravietz (talk) 18:58, 22 July 2015 (UTC)[reply]

Volunteer note - In looking over the history of this article and the number of registered and unregistered editors and the scope of the challenged edits, this may take longer than the usual one to two weeks for cases at this noticeboard, so that this may be a candidate for formal mediation by a member of the Mediation Committee. I am neither accepting nor declining this case here. Robert McClenon (talk) 17:46, 22 July 2015 (UTC)[reply]

I am accepting this issue for moderated discussion. What it appears that Zozs is saying is that Dictatorship of the Proletariat had an entirely different meaning for Marx than was ever implemented under Lenin or his successors, and that Dictatorship of the Proletariat was not intended by Marx to be a dictatorship in the modern sense, but a form of democracy. It appears then that the issue is whether the article should describe Marx's concept, or its implementation by Lenin, or both. Is that the real issue? If so, the real question would appear to be how clearly Zozs's interpretation is verifiable from the writings of Marx. Is that the real issue? Robert McClenon (talk) 15:05, 24 July 2015 (UTC)[reply]

Please be civil and concise. I don't want long statements. Please comment on content, not on contributors. Robert McClenon (talk) 15:05, 24 July 2015 (UTC)[reply]

This discussion will run for no more than ten days. If it isn't resolved in ten days but is still making progress, I will request that formal mediation begin. Robert McClenon (talk) 15:05, 24 July 2015 (UTC)[reply]

Please do not respond to other editors, only to the moderator. Thank you. Robert McClenon (talk) 15:05, 24 July 2015 (UTC)[reply]

The article should describe anything that relates to the "dictatorship of the proletariat". However, none of the sources used to write the "Lenin" section state that Lenin's actions were related to the "dictatorship of the proletariat"; therefore, the entire "Lenin" section is an intentional or unintentional violation of WP:OR and illegitimately conflating two issues. Like I said, anything that relates to the topic should be written in the article, including Lenin's actions should be included - but only when written legitimately with proper sourcing. Furthermore my descriptions explaining Marxism's original conception of the issue, using NOT Marx's quotes but rather reliable, independent, non-primary sources, were removed based on edit warring. Zozs (talk) 15:17, 24 July 2015 (UTC)[reply]

That doesn't exactly answer my question. Are you saying that Marx's concept of Dictatorship of the Proletariat was not envisioned by Marx as a dictatorship in the modern sense, but as a form of democracy, and that its implementation by Lenin and his successors was contrary to what Marx had originally envisioned? Robert McClenon (talk) 15:46, 24 July 2015 (UTC)[reply]

Reliable, independent sources which describe Marx's original conception of the DOTP, describe that in his theory it was a fully democratic state form. Some other sources, cited by me in the article, judge it to be completely incompatible with single-party rule, as well as mention that Marx explicitly wanted a "all representatives would be elected and recallable by democracy under universal suffrage" rule in the DOTP.

The article states, that for example, Lenin's government banned opposing parties. The article never explains, however, how this action was inspired by the concept of the dictatorship of the proletariat, nor does it cite any sources which point to this view. If such sources were found, such material could stay on the article -- as it stands now, it must be removed. In my opinion there are no truly independent and neutral sources which claim that such actions were related to the Marxist concept of DOTP. Zozs (talk) 15:51, 24 July 2015 (UTC)[reply]

I have a question for editors who disagree with Zozs's concept of Dictatorship of the Proletariat. Do you disagree with the above statement that the original concept was democratic in nature and was not a dictatorship in the modern sense? If so, do you disagree because you think that the scholarly sources are being incorrectly quoted, or why do you disagree? Robert McClenon (talk) 17:37, 24 July 2015 (UTC)[reply]

Yes, I do disagree. First a note on semantics: Marx did not use most of the terms in their contemporary meaning. Marxists use "dialectical thinking" for their reasoning, which essentially means that if some means merely had a potential to bring democracy in some undefined future, these means were themselves "democratic". Using dialectics anything becomes "democratic" - terror, dictatorship, concentration camps - simply because it's used with a distant intention to bring democracy (also alternatively defined, by the way, as the Marxists "democracy" only includes proletariat and any other classes were forcibly removed in the process). This approach stands in an obvious contradiction with any contemporary definition of democracy, which describes a consistent democratic process that includes open debate, free elections and in general decision making without the need for violence. So this is really a question about which semantic system should Wikipedia use to describe philosophical phenomenons such as Marxism: should it use a widely acceptec consensus of rationalism, science and critical thinking, or maybe always wear the shoes of the very philosophy it describes? If the latter, you can imagine how horrible mess would Wikipedia become with articles like scientology rewritten using their internal beliefs and quasi-logical systems. This is precisely why most of the contributors to the article used the contemporary meanings of words, while a minority of contributors attempted to rewrite the article using the Marxist terms (like "dictatorship is a democracy"). Kravietz (talk) 17:53, 24 July 2015 (UTC)[reply]

Absurd. Which sources claims that "concentration camps" can be considered as "democratic" under Marxism, or anything similar? Furthermore, we are not making original research interpretations about what Marx may or may not have meant - in the article, we're representing the majority scholarly interpretation of Marx through reliable, independent, non-primary sources. So we don't make speculation about what Marx may have meant. Zozs (talk) 18:25, 24 July 2015 (UTC)[reply]

Leon Trotsky, "Terrorism and Communism", Chapter 8: Problems of the Organization of Labor. First he's setting the problem: "True, before us there arose quite new questions and new difficulties in the sphere of the organization of labor. Socialist theory had no answers to these questions, and could not have them." Now watch this dialectical leap: "We are making the first attempt in world-history to organize labor in the interests of the laboring majority itself. This, however, does not exclude the element of compulsion in all its forms, both the most gentle and the extremely severe." So, slavery was bad when it was used for the benefit of minority, but it's not very bad when it's used for the benefit of majority. And a bit of "everyone knows" wisdom: "As a general rule, man strives to avoid labor. Love for work is not at all an inborn characteristic: it is created by economic pressure and social education. One may even say that man is a fairly lazy animal." Voila, Trotsky just defined slavery and forced labour camps as part of democracy — it was 1920. Kravietz (talk) 20:31, 24 July 2015 (UTC)[reply]

Second, Marx and Engels written in 19th century were in no means complete or consistent, they were created over a period of almost half century, many of them are random speeches or comments to various debates ongoing at that time. As result, you can find citations from Marx that are perfectly original and contradictory at the same time, either due to different context, or the semantic mess caused by dialectics, or just change of Marx or Engels thinking over time. For example, initially they insisted that a violent revolution is absolutely required, then late Marx once commented that maybe an evolution might be also an option in advanced democracies.

There are two definitions of "revolution" used by Marx and Engels, which may confuse some readers: (a) social revolution, meaning a widespread social change that may be peaceful or involve violence, and (b) a violent insurrection that does not necessarily meet the definition of a social revolution. Marx and Engels always insisted that a social revolution is necessary in order to make the switch to communism, but they also insisted from the first day that this may be completely peaceful. E.g., before "The Communist Manifesto" was even published, Engels remarked in Principles of Communism: "It would be desirable if [the peaceful abolition of private property] could happen, and the communists would certainly be the last to oppose it". Marx and Engels were entirely consistent on such fundamental principles, and it is not subject to interpretation. Even Lenin claimed that a peaceful revolution was possible in Russia as long as power was handed to the workers' council system. Zozs (talk) 18:25, 24 July 2015 (UTC)[reply]

This is as much as "peaceful" as putting a pistol against someone's head and saying that there will be no violence if he peacefully hands his belongings over. When citing Principles of Communism you cited it quite selectively and omitted the paragraph that starts from "but" which negates the whole preceding statement. Engels knew perfectly that the "bourgeoisie" would never abolish private property peacefully (because who would?) and violence was inevitable. Unless, of course, the way to communism could be evolutionary, but that was categorically rejected by both of them. Kravietz (talk) 20:07, 24 July 2015 (UTC)[reply]

Also, Marx insisted that communism can only work in a developed industrial country, but at the same time in a letter to Vera Zasulich admitted that it might also work in Russia, in spite of it being undeveloped and largely rural. What I'm trying to say that in Marxism, there is no "ultimate" interpretation of Marxism, simply because Marx and Engels had no ultimately defined and clear idea on how it should work. Analysis of Marxist sources is pretty much like analysing Bible and you can find many citations to support almost any number of interpretations, even pretty contradictory - there are indefinite ways of determining the "original" meanings by just re-reading the texts selectively, because there is no Marx alive to tell them right or wrong. This is precisely what various Marxian sects, like Bolsheviks, Mensheviks, Stalinists and Trotskyites, happily did over the 20th century, each of them providing a fair amount of citations to support their claims. Any interpretation that claims to have found "the Marx's original conception" unescapably has to take the point of view of one of these interpretations, and just claim this is the "original" one. But it's not. Kravietz (talk) 17:53, 24 July 2015 (UTC)[reply]

Marx didn't say that "communism could work in Russia", he said that a revolution could evolve fruitfully in Russia as long as it relied on a revolution in the advanced industrial countries becoming stable. Surely there is no "ultimate interpretation", but reliable, independent sources claim that Marx meant a democratic society by the dictatorship of the proletariat, so that is what the article must say unless sources which say the opposite are found. Zozs (talk) 18:25, 24 July 2015 (UTC)[reply]

Because of these two factors any encyclopedical approach to Marxism (DOTP included) should objectively describe all major interpreatations that managed to get some political momentum in 20th century, and definitely Bolshevism, Trotskyism etc should be included. And this is pretty much how the article looked like before the dispute.

I have a question for Zozs and any editors who agree. Did Lenin, or the Soviet Communist Party, justify the banning of opposing parties based on dictatorship of the proletariat (whether or not a correct presentation of Marx's view)? If the banning of opposition parties was Lenin's concept of the dictatorship of the proletariat, then shouldn't both viewpoints be presented? Robert McClenon (talk) 17:37, 24 July 2015 (UTC)[reply]

While Lenin's government claimed that the state was an accurate representation of the dictatorship of the proletariat, actions such as the banning of opposite parties were not justified with a reference to the "dictatorship of the proletariat". Some parties were banned referencing the that they were violating legality by calling for the overthrow of the Soviet government. Lenin, in his theory, presented the dictatorship of the proletariat as democratic. Lenin argued that the Russian Soviet Republic, and the soviet system, was, actually, the strongest fulfilment of democracy, as contrasted to the short-comings "bourgeois democracy", that, in his view, was democracy only for the capitalists. Lenin argued that the Soviet system constituted "democracy for 99% of the people", while "bourgeois democracy" consisted only of "democracy for rich men". Zozs (talk) 17:55, 24 July 2015 (UTC)[reply]

While I agree that the section on banning of opposition parties doesn't fit very much the article (or there is no obvious link between this section and the article), Lenin's interpretation of the dictatorship of the proletariat was presented quite explicitly in State and Revolution: "the “special coercive force” for the suppression of the proletariat by the bourgeoisie, of millions of working people by handfuls of the rich, must be replaced by a “special coercive force” for the suppression of the bourgeoisie by the proletariat (the dictatorship of the proletariat)"[6]. This source was long time referenced in the article before Zozs edits precisely because it represents the Bolshevik interpretation, as usual with a wealth of citations carefully selected from Marx and Engels to prove Lenin's point. I can see a way how this particular Lenin's definition of DOTP could have easily dialectically evolved into the ban of opposition parties, but I have not researched this topic and I would love to see better references in this section. Kravietz (talk) 18:48, 24 July 2015 (UTC)[reply]

Ok, answering myself: I found a pretty good sources in Main Currents of Marxism about the single-party policy: most important attempt to rationalize and vocalize that policy was made by Nikolai Bukharin, who "reminded that basics of leninism is that there's just one ruling party and the party is united, so that no fractions are allowed (...) because fractions can easily turn into separate parties". Kravietz (talk) 20:07, 24 July 2015 (UTC)[reply]

The dictatorship of the proletariat has long been understood in the West to be a Communist dictatorship. Even if this was never what Marx intended, then shouldn't that use of the term be included in the article? Robert McClenon (talk) 17:37, 24 July 2015 (UTC)[reply]

If independent, reliable sources argue that the dictatorship of the proletariat was a "Communist dictatorship", then such information should be included. It's unlikely that, in any case, they constitute stronger sources than the ones for the opposing view. Zozs (talk) 17:55, 24 July 2015 (UTC)[reply]

Are there independent reliable sources that Communist dictatorship was justified (by dialectical reasoning or otherwise) based on Marx's concept of dictatorship of the proletariat? Robert McClenon (talk) 18:23, 24 July 2015 (UTC)[reply]

Lenin's State and Revolution is one key such sources, providing a comprehensive dialectical rationalisation of Bolshevik policy based on interpretation of Marx's concept of DOTP. Kravietz (talk) 20:07, 24 July 2015 (UTC)[reply]

Leszek Kolakowski's Main Currents of Marxism is second such source, that precisely describes the causal connection between the Marx and Engels description and the Soviet implementation (see the reference below). Kravietz (talk) 20:31, 24 July 2015 (UTC)[reply]

The statement: "The dictatorship of the proletariat is inherently democratic" is, in modern terms, a contradiction. Is that because "dictatorship" is being used in a non-standard way (e.g., a reference to dictatorship in ancient Rome is non-standard) or because "democratic" is being used in a non-standard way (e.g., as the use of non-democratic means to implement future democracy)? If that inconsistency is not clearly addressed, that statement will merely confuse readers. Will both groups of editors please respond?

It is not a contradiction because the "dictatorship of the proletariat" is a Marxist concept. When we say "DOTP", the reader does not understand each word independently, but rather understands "DOTP" to mean the Marxist concept. Therefore, "the DOTP is democratic" is not a contradiction because whereas DOTP is understood as a Marxist concept, "democratic" is understood as the mainstream interpretation of the single word "democratic". Furthermore, the DOTP itself does not concern the means to implement the DOTP - it consists only a form of government. Talk about this form of government in general does not neccessarily involve talk about how it may be established. Furthermore, to Marx the establishment of the DOTP itself required means which would require general social agreement and furthermore would necessarily involve representation of the majority of society. For example, Marx struggled heavily against the Blanquists, who believed that a minority making a coup d'Etat could bring about the working class' goals. Zozs (talk) 18:34, 24 July 2015 (UTC)[reply]

Does that mean that there is no contradiction because "dictatorship of the proletariat" is not a "dictatorship" in the mainstream sense? If so, the article should be clear, because otherwise it will confuse the reader. Replies, please? Robert McClenon (talk) 18:41, 24 July 2015 (UTC)[reply]

The very purpose of any encyclopedia is to explain specialist terms in non-specialist and mainstream language. Assumptions about the readers having deep understanding of the proprietary semantic system of Marxism will be in most cases wrong. Bertrand Russell already in 1920 explained how wrong these assumptions were back then: "Friends of Russia here think of the dictatorship of the proletariat as merely a new form of representative government, in which only working men and women have votes, and the constituencies are partly occupational, not geographical. They think that "proletariat" means "proletariat", but "dictatorship" does not quite mean "dictatorship". This is the opposite of the truth. When a Russian Communist speaks of dictatorship, he means the word literally, but when he speaks of the proletariat, he means the word in a Pickwickian sense. He means the "class-conscious" part of the proletariat, i.e., the Communist Party." (The Practice and Theory of Bolshevism). The pair of words "dictatorship" and "democratic" are simply an oxymoron because democracy is not just about simple "rule of majority" (that's ochlocracy) but also about the democratic process in which also the minority have their say, which is not the case with any dictatorship. Kravietz (talk) 19:07, 24 July 2015 (UTC)[reply]

Irrelevant comment - Bertrand Russell is interesting when seen in terms of Marxist class consciousness because he was neither a bourgeois nor a proletarian. Robert McClenon (talk) 19:35, 24 July 2015 (UTC)[reply]

I referenced him just to demonstrate that the DOTP phrase was already confusing back in 1920 because of it's non-mainstream usage of the word "dictatorship". BTW Russell wrote this book just after taking part in a visit for UK communists in USSR organised by the Soviet authorities, where he spoke directly to Lenin and others. Kravietz (talk) 20:31, 24 July 2015 (UTC)[reply]

I am not closing the first stage of discussion. It may continue. It seems to me that there have been multiple concepts of dictatorship of the proletariat, and they all should be described. Does anyone disagree, and think that there is only one valid concept? Robert McClenon (talk) 18:23, 24 July 2015 (UTC)[reply]

There is only one scholarly majority view of what Marx originally meant by the dictatorship of the proletariat - that view is the one that should describe what Marx meant by the dictatorship of the proletariat. Other interpretations may be given space as a minority interpretation. Furthermore e.g. the Leninist, Stalinist, Trotskyist, etc. view about the "dictatorship of the proletariat" may be described, as long as this description is based on reliable sources. Zozs (talk) 18:27, 24 July 2015 (UTC)[reply]

Is it only the lede of the article that is disputed, or are there other sections of the article that are also disputed? Robert McClenon (talk) 18:23, 24 July 2015 (UTC)[reply]

Most of the "Lenin" section is under dispute. Zozs (talk) 18:27, 24 July 2015 (UTC)[reply]

I recommend everyone here to read Hal Draper's Marx and the Dictatorship of the Proletariat, which is possibly one of the most complete expositions about what Marx really meant by the original terms. It does not concern interpretations at all - it merely objectively assess what Marx himself meant in his original thought. For even more information check Draper's The ‘Dictatorship of the Proletariat’ in Marx and Engels. Zozs (talk) 18:42, 24 July 2015 (UTC)[reply]

I wouldn't agree that there's any unique "scholarly majority view" on that matter. For example Leszek Kolakowski's Main Currents of Marxism (which I also recommend etc) definitely belongs to "scholarly majority" and discusses the topic of DOTP in quite detailed way. Kolakowski comes to a conclusion (volume 1, page 425 of Polish edition which I have) that maybe it wasn't Marx's intention to remove democratic institutions as Lenin interpreted the "dictatorship of the proletariat", but the "logic of the doctrine" definitely allowed such interpretation, and continues that "leninist-stalinist version of marxism is indeed a version (original emphasis), an attempt to practically apply an idea, which Marx had expressed in a philosophical form, lacking any detailed guidelines of political interpretation". In that paragraph Kolakowski, in my opinnion, presented the most balanced view of the term, because he not only takes into consideration a single declarative intention but also the whole context in which it was presented. And all that should be part of an encyclopedic article on DOTP, not just Marx's narrowly interpreted intention. Kravietz (talk) 19:51, 24 July 2015 (UTC)[reply]

By the way, we just had one reader who was suprised by the current version of the article to leave a comment: "I came here by accident at present the lead (...) is pure doublespeak"[7]. Kravietz (talk) 14:06, 25 July 2015 (UTC)[reply]

Would each editor please provide a draft of what they think should be in lede section and in the Lenin section? Either prepare it here with its own fourth-level heading, or prepare it in your user space or sandbox. We can then see whether there is any room for compromise. If there is room for compromise, we will see whether we are likely to finish within ten days, or whether we need formal mediation. If it becomes clear that there is an impasse, we may use a Request for Comments. Robert McClenon (talk) 19:00, 24 July 2015 (UTC)[reply]

I argue that the current protected lead in the Dictatorship of the proletariat article is a good draft that more or less represents what it should finally look like. Zozs (talk) 19:21, 24 July 2015 (UTC)[reply]

• As someone who never edited this page before, I am not going to provide any drafts. I can only help a little with editing this page (may be) if it will be unprotected. My very best wishes (talk) 23:02, 24 July 2015 (UTC)[reply]

• My only problem is with the absolutist tone introduced with the new edits: "The dictatorship of the proletariat is inherently democratic, and cannot take the form of single-party rule... it was never intended to mean a dictatorship — as the term is currently understood — in any way, and that it was always conceived of as a democratic society." GAB (talk) 23:06, 24 July 2015 (UTC)[reply]

It is quite simple. The dictatorship of the proletariat is a Marxist concept. As a Marxist concept it represents a democratic society (according to reliable sources which have analysed Marx's thinking on the matter and are being cited). Furthermore it says more than you quote: "Research into the origin of the term has shown that it was never intended to mean a dictatorship — as the term is currently understood — in any way, and that it was always conceived of as a democratic society." In other words all it says is that the original founders of the concept "dictatorship of the proletariat" never intended it to mean a dictatorship in the modern sense. This is very simple writing to clear up any misconceptions readers may have. It concerns only the original concept and not any possible applications. Zozs (talk) 13:25, 25 July 2015 (UTC)[reply]

• This is not only lede. Right now 50% of this page is WP:OR as I explained here. This must be fixed per policy, although it does not mean it will be actually fixed given the opposition. My very best wishes (talk) 04:41, 25 July 2015 (UTC)[reply]

As noted above, another editor states that a sentence in the lede is doublespeak, and I agree completely that it is. It is using terminology in a very non-standard way, by saying that dictatorship is democratic. I have already asked the editor who introduced that language to explain whether "dictatorship" is being used in a non-standard fashion in the phrase "dictatorship of the proletariat", in which case that usage should be explained, or whether "democratic" is being used in a non-standard fashion, in which case, since that is in the voice of Wikipedia, it must be changed. User:Zozs is merely restating his own opinion and is not yet engaging with the other editors or the moderator, and is called on to explain, within 24 hours, which word is being used in a non-standard way. If the apparently contradictory language in the proposed and current version is not explained in a way that uses English as it is normally used, I will have to fail this discussion and request User:KrakatoaKatie to unprotect the article. Robert McClenon (talk) 15:20, 25 July 2015 (UTC)[reply]

While there should be debate on the exact wording, there is no validity in the claim that it is some form of contradiction. For example, many Marxist parties in modern times have started using the terms "workers' state" or "proletarian democracy" as new names for the "dictatorship of the proletariat", though in content the meaning is exactly the same. "The workers' state is a concept that, within Marxist theory, refers to a democratic form of organization" would not be contradictory. If "dictatorship of the proletariat" means the exact same, then, why would it be contradictory? Here you are assuming that "dictatorship of the proletariat" is understood as each individual word: "dictatorship" "of" "the" "proletariat", in combination, which is absurd, because what is understood is the concept. "Star Trek" refers literally to a journey through the stars, yet the Wikipedia article about "Star Trek" claims that it is an entertainment franchise. To claim that a journey is an entertainment franchise is a contradiction... but obviously, what readers understand by "Star Trek" is the CONCEPT, not the literal meaning of the individual words "Star" "Trek" in combination. Even if the reader does not know about the concept, the reader is INFORMED about it - that's the goal of an encyclopaedia. Zozs (talk) 17:16, 25 July 2015 (UTC)[reply]

In direct answer to the question: it is "dictatorship" which is used in a way that must be specially understood. "Dictatorship" in the context of "dictatorship of the proletariat" means not total, absolute, unrestrained rule, involving despotic measures, but rather refers to the proletarians as the dominating social class, in the same way that Marxist analysis concludes that the bourgeoisie is the ruling social class in capitalist society, democratic or otherwise, and also to the temporary character of the proletarians' rule until the withering away of the state occurs. Zozs (talk) 17:57, 25 July 2015 (UTC)[reply]

First, in mainstream English usage, "dictatorship" and "democracy" are antonyms. To use a phrase that contains the word "dictatorship" to refer to a democratic polity is inconsistent or contradictory, and so requires explanation. Second, in the phrase "Star Trek", each of the words is being used in its standard sense, because the entertainment franchise really is about fictional voyages across interstellar space. I am asking whether the word "dictatorship" in the phrase "dictatorship of the proletariat" is being used in its standard English sense, or in a non-standard sense. If the words are being used in their standard sense, then "democratic" is being used in a non-standard sense. Third, I agree that the statement that "the workers' state refer to a democratic form of organization" is not contradictory. However, just defining "the workers' state" and "dictatorship of the proletariat" as synonyms doesn't take away the inconsistency of the former phrase. Robert McClenon (talk) 18:20, 25 July 2015 (UTC)[reply]

And the explanation which is provided in the lead is exactly this explanation. Democratic is being used in the sense that would be understood by most people, dictatorship is not. Zozs (talk) 20:10, 25 July 2015 (UTC)[reply]

I see that it does say that. What do the other editors say? Robert McClenon (talk) 20:23, 25 July 2015 (UTC)[reply]

Point 1. Yes, the "dictatorship of the proletariat" came from Marxist theory, but it has been also widely used (or claimed to be used in a huge number of RS) on practice, for example as an official doctrine by the Soviet CPSU - until 1961. Therefore, telling in the introduction that The dictatorship of the proletariat is inherently democratic, and cannot take the form of single-party rule is nonsense and WP:OR. This term was widely used in the soviet historiography, in official documents by CPSU, and in a lot of other literature.

Point 2. No, Marx talked about dictatorship in the conventional sense, meaning repressions of minorities by force, exactly as in the Paris Commune. This is all correctly explained in Encyclopedia Britannica.

Point 3. No, Marx did not use democracy in conventional sense. His "democracy" was dictatorship of alleged majority, which is not democracy. True democracy requires rule of law and human rights. But once again, main problem of this and many other "political" pages is WP:OR. Some people are using this site to promote their own political views. My very best wishes (talk) 23:29, 25 July 2015 (UTC)[reply]

On point 1: The CPSU eventually abandoned the idea of the "dictatorship of the proletariat" and rather started describing the USSR with the term "state of the whole people". The CPSU can say what it likes, but they cannot modify the original definition of the "dictatorship of the proletariat", they can only state their own view. The CPSU's line on the DOTP is not distinctly notable, but if anyone actually finds the reliable sources to describe it, then hey, it can be described. On Point 2: Actually, Marx and Engels explicitly said that the Paris Commune experience was a "dictatorship of the proletariat" due to the fact that all representatives were elected by universal suffrage. That's explained in several reliable sources cited in the Wikipedia article about the DOTP. You should actually review them. On point 3: But Marx's definition of "democracy" isn't being used, rather, what independent reliable sources classed as "democracy" is. Zozs (talk) 14:15, 26 July 2015 (UTC)[reply]

There appears to be an impasse, with no room for compromise between the view of Zozs that "dictatorship of the proletariat" refers to a democratic organization, because the word "dictatorship" is being used in a non-standard way, and other editors, that it has been used to refer to a Leninist dictatorship. Does anyone want to propose a compromise? If not, a Request for Comments is the most likely way forward. Does anyone have any comments in preparation for the Request for Comments? Robert McClenon (talk) 01:58, 26 July 2015 (UTC)[reply]

@Robert McClenon: Zozs views are simply wrong, and from this discussion, what is abundantly clear is that he does not understand basic Marxist theory. This kind of user is dangerous to WP because they misinform other users (and makes illegitmiate and wrongful views legitimate)! .... This must be removed "The dictatorship of the proletariat is inherently democratic, and cannot take the form of single-party rule.[5] Research into the origin of the term has shown that it was never intended to mean a dictatorship — as the term is currently understood — in any way, and that it was always conceived of as a democratic society.[6][7] The view of modern Marxists critical of the Soviet Union-style states is that they did not form in any way a practical application of the dictatorship of the proletariat, but rather were not dictatorships of the proletariat at all." ... This is biased to the extreme. Capitalism is not in theory supposed to subjugated and controlled by a state-dominated economy, but the Chinese seems to be doing it very well.... --TIAYN (talk) 10:27, 26 July 2015 (UTC)[reply]

I may not "understand basic Marxist theory", you may suspect that I "willingly misinform other users", and you may personally believe that my text is "biased to the extreme", but, you must have the arguments and reliable sources to back up the removal of sourced information. You can't just say that you disagree with me soooooo much and use that as an argument. Zozs (talk) 14:19, 26 July 2015 (UTC)[reply]

As I have said before, the "dictatorial" view of some "20th-century communist parties" about the "dictatorship of the proletariat" can also be written about in the leads, if the other editors here find the reliable sources to do so. However, the editors here aren't interested in actually finding reliable sources, all they're interested in is removing the original definition of DOTP according to reliable sources, because they have a personal disagreement with it... Zozs (talk) 14:17, 26 July 2015 (UTC)[reply]

The lead is for the dominating narrative. The alternative narrative, that dictatorship of the proletariat, can not entail political dictatorship by the few should be mentioned somewhere in the body, but it should not be the main focus of the lead! A lead is the summary of the dominating narrative, and the body focuses on the dominating narrative, but very good articles make room for the alternate narratives in some shape or another too. --TIAYN (talk) 15:19, 26 July 2015 (UTC)[reply]

The lead is for the dominating narrative. It is yet for you to prove that your view constitutes the dominating narrative. Zozs (talk) 15:37, 26 July 2015 (UTC)[reply]

@Zozs: True indeed Zozs. Unlike the M–L article my difference with you here is not as large.... You're right, many believe that "The dictatorship of the proletariat is inherently democratic, and cannot take the form of single-party rule", but again 1/3 of the lead is dominated against a highly controverial alternate narrative. And the fact that you say that the alternate narrative is indeed correct is problematic. Secondly, to use Jon Elster as a source without stating he's a leading figure within analytical Marxism is a problem. Me being Norwegian and all too, he regularly visits the University of Oslo and speaks on various issues. He's a good guy :) .. This was also the problem with the lead of the Marxism–Leninism article; what sounds less biased, this "Marxism-Leninism" was founded as Stalin and his ideologists' own doctrine, with Marx and Lenin's words being merely used as justification, selected opportunistically and taken out of context" or this "Historian Robert Vincent Daniels argues that Marxism was used to "justify Stalinism, but it was no longer allowed to serve either as a policy directive or an explanation of reality" during Stalin's rule"? The first one you single handedly stating thats how it is, in the second we get one of the most leading historians on the field expressing a similar held belief.--TIAYN (talk) 15:49, 26 July 2015 (UTC)[reply]

We are not talking about the Marxism-Leninism article. Can you prove that is the "alternate narrative"? The lead never says that is the only interpretation possible, it says that is the original meaning intended by Marx as evaluated by the people who researched it. Zozs (talk) 15:53, 26 July 2015 (UTC)[reply]

@Zozs: And what makes you think that that interpretation of DOTP is more correct than the Marxist–Leninist one for instance? Its just one interpretation. For example, while its true that Marx stated that the dictatorship of the proletariat would mean the exercise of democracy, he never explicitly said how it would be organised and he made it very clear that the dictatorship of the proletariat was a class dictatorship... The question, which Marx left unresolved is, what is most important? Class dictatorship or democracy? This is a mute point, and a very basic argument (the discussions themselves are of course more complex) ... My main problem with you're edits, throughout our several heated and very unfriendly interactions, it that you claim that one interpretation is the mainstream one when you indeed meet great opposition that states the contrary (here you have four users disagreeing with you; it should tell you something.) --TIAYN (talk) 16:07, 26 July 2015 (UTC)[reply]

For Marx, class rule does not imply the abolition of democracy for the other class. E.g., proletarians can vote in bourgeois democracy. But they are still subject to the social conditions of rule by the bourgeoisie. "And what makes you think that that interpretation of DOTP is more correct than the Marxist–Leninist one for instance?" Nothing, but here we are not debating which interpretations of the DOTP should be described. The Marxist-Leninist view may be described. But what primarily has to be described is the Marxist view, and that's what is done in the lead version I support. "he never explicitly said how it would be organised" Reliable sources argue that he explicitly stated that democracy in the dictatorship of the proletariat would constitute the election of all positions of public power through elections involving universal suffrage. That several users disagree with me does not mean that their view necessarily represents the main scholarly view. Zozs (talk) 16:12, 26 July 2015 (UTC)[reply]

– New discussion.

Have you discussed this on a talk page?

Yes, I have discussed this issue on a talk page already.

Location of dispute

• The Selfish Gene (edit | talk | history | links | watch | logs)

Users involved

• Jkxgao (talk · contribs)
• Dodi 8238 (talk · contribs)
• Johnuniq (talk · contribs)

Dispute overview

This is a dispute on the title "Selfish Gene". I edited the issue with the new info from a book http://www.barnesandnoble.com/w/the-wonder-of-cultured-cells-super-selfish-johnson-gao/1113796730?ean=9781462699933. Mr. Dodi 8238 deleted my edit with the main reason that it is not related to Richard Dawkins' book. Obviously "selfish Gene" shall not only use Richard Dawkins's idea, which formed 30 years ago. As the advance of science, the Richard Dawkins' idea becomes in complete. I added the following words in my editing. Johnson K. Gao stated further on the advantage of "selfish Genes" in the process of Natural Selection in his book[3] From page 8, line 10 to page 9, line 6: --- “selfish” gene (the genome type of it could be temporary expressed by SS or Ss and ss), and/or a “greedy” gene (GG or Gg and gg), and/or, an “invading” gene (II or Ii and ii), and/or all of those three genes in a single cell. If the cell is not selfish (recessive genome type of ss), or, not greedy (gg), or, not invading (ii), it is impossible for that cell to internalize so many nano-gold assembled agarose-gelatin microbeads into its body. The human body consists of enormous single cells. Our personal character is manifested by the integrity of the character of many single cells. Suppose that the nature of human cells is similar to the cultured cells shown in the above picture, in which those cultured cells could be a reasonable demonstration of the domination of selfish gene SS or Ss, greedy gene GG or Gg, or, invading gene II or Ii, and if the Darwin’s law of Natural Selection is correct, then, that kind of cell will have the opportunity to survive. On the contrary, if the individual cell is of less selfish, or, more intended to be sacrifice, i.e. the genome type of ss, gg and ii, which will show disability in phagocytosis (or, the cell refuses eating, or, tolerates hungry), that kind of cell could have been starved to death or far earlier to be perished from the Earth---

Have you tried to resolve this previously?

I hope that Mr. Dodi 8238 will not keep the openion that other people could not edit the "Selfish Gene" besides the Richard Dawkins' book.

How do you think we can help?

Wiki should let every one to edit. Not "One person's forum.

I think this comes down to two things:

1. The book that Jkxgao (talk · contribs) wants to use as a source (Gao, Johnson Kui-Xiong (June 11, 2012). The Wonder of Cultured Cells-Super Selfish: (A Critical Argument with Karl Marx). Publish America. ISBN 9781462699933.) is published by a company that engages in the self-publishing business. Wikipedia has a policy against using self-published sources: WP:SPS.
2. If readers are interested in reading about current developments in selfish gene theory, they can read about them on Gene-centered view of evolution, which is an article about selfish gene theory. The Selfish Gene, on the other hand, is an article about the 1976 book on evolution by Richard Dawkins. Writing about something other than Dawkins's book in the article about Dawkins's book is off topic, even if it were based on reliable sources such as peer-reviewed journals; books published by university presses; university-level textbooks; magazines, journals, and books published by respected publishing houses; or mainstream newspapers.

Maybe "Selfish gene" and "Selfish genes" should be redirected to Gene-centered view of evolution? This way, people who search for these terms wouldn't confuse The Selfish Gene as being an article about selfish gene theory. This is something that could be discussed on Talk:The Selfish Gene. --Dodi 8238 (talk) 12:05, 25 July 2015 (UTC) [edited 13:12, 25 July 2015 (UTC)][reply]

Dodi 8238 has given a good summary of the situation. I would not change the redirect Selfish gene because the book is extremely well known (for those with an interest in the topic), and "selfish gene" is a phrase irrevocably associated with the book. Johnuniq (talk) 10:43, 26 July 2015 (UTC)[reply]

• Volunteer note - There has been no recent discussion on the article talk page. Discussion on the article talk page is a precondition to other forms of dispute resolution. Robert McClenon (talk) 19:58, 24 July 2015 (UTC)[reply]
•  Note to participants: The only discussion is located here and here. Regards, MrScorch6200 (talk | ctrb) 20:15, 24 July 2015 (UTC)[reply]

– New discussion.

Have you discussed this on a talk page?

Yes, I have discussed this issue on a talk page already.

Location of dispute

• Talk:MLS Soccer Sunday#July 2015: This article needs additional citations for verification. (edit | subject | history | links | watch | logs)

Users involved

• Mikeylito (talk · contribs)
• Walter Görlitz (talk · contribs)

Dispute overview

There is a disagreement about the use of date formats in the article.

I'm also not happy with the tone of the talk page discussion. I feel it was less than civil.

Have you tried to resolve this previously?

Once I was clear on what required cleanup, I went and resolved the issues with one exception which I addressed on the talk page. However, with explanation, I did revert the dates to dmy format as I originally posted the article.

How do you think we can help?

I am seeking additional opinions on what took place on this incident. I'm particularly disturbed because rather than explaining my original question on the talk page, the other editor just made wholesale changes without continuing the talk page discussion.

The subjects, both the league and networks, are American and so should use MDY per WP:STRONGNAT. That's the format I applied: mdy. WP:DATERET takes a back seat to STRONGNAT as is seen from the second sentence of DATERET.

As for civility, my tagging of the whole article was questioned so I removed the general tag and tagged specific sentences. I was then questioned as to why I changed date format and a lengthy response was made, which showed what I believed to be a misunderstanding of the MoS. I simply responded that STRONGNAT applied, as it does. No insulting. No edit warring. No incivility.

I made no wholesale changes and I did continue talk page discussion. I made three explained changes:

1. per WP:INFOBOXFLAG, WP:OVERLINK and WP:REPEATLINK
2. General formatting by script which is essentially MOS:TIME and WP:DATERANGE
3. Added {{refimprove}} tag to article (TW)

Only after these changes were made did discussion start on talk page. I then changed the general tag to specific ones as described above, and realizing that the date format was wrong for the subject, applied the correct date format. I read the lecture incorrectly asserting DATERET and replied, then MDY again . I'd be happy to see revert whatever wholesale changes I made without discussing after I see what they are.

I don't understand any of the complaints. I would suggest complainant read WP:OWN. Walter Görlitz (talk) 07:41, 26 July 2015 (UTC)[reply]

• The Manual of Style is pretty clear on which date format to use. "Articles on topics with strong ties to a particular English-speaking country should generally use the date format most commonly used in that nation. For the United States this is, for example, July 4, 1976; for most other nations it is, for example, 4 July 1976." As MLS is an American league, the MoS is pretty clear to use 'month day, year' here. Scorch (talk | ctrb) 06:27, 26 July 2015 (UTC)[reply]