Talk:Criticism of evolutionary psychology: Difference between revisions

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I just don't think Wikipedia is the place for a point/counterpoint type discussion. It's one thing to point out, in the context of the article itself, that there is substantial criticism. It's a whole other issue to actually create an entry devoted to the debate. I mean, what's next, Is Snopes Evil or is he Good (yes, I know {{spoiler}} this has been settled in the last book, but you know what I mean). 196.205.127.16 02:31, 27 August 2007 (UTC). -[reply]

Should this article include criticisms of evolutionary psychology from other fields of evolution and human behavior? Other fields could include:

1. Human behavioral ecology
2. Dual inheritance theory
3. Evolutionary developmental psychology

EPM 00:27, 8 July 2007 (UTC)[reply]

This is the least neutral page I've seen on Wikipedia. It doesn't even begin to cover all of EP's shortcomings and makes it appear as if every single criticism against EP has been conquered! —Preceding unsigned comment added by 85.77.255.204 (talk) 21:19, 11 September 2007 (UTC)[reply]

I wholeheartedly agree. As stated by others, the controversies are poorly presented and treated as if they have been adequately answered by EP. The main reason why EPC needs its own page is because the issues are complex and it remains highly controversial among professional scholars. I am extremely concerned about the impressions that laypersons might get from reading this page. I am a clinical psychologist and university professor with some knowledge of the field and its critics, so I hope to do it some justice if I can find the energy to re-work it, but I am also worried that those with invested interests will maintain it as a debate page. Methinks neutrality is key. Logic prevails (talk) 01:02, 17 January 2011 (UTC)[reply]

This page is ridiculous. It's like a huge evolutionary psychology apologia. Most of the criticisms are either unsourced or strawmen versions of the real arguments. A lot of the claims about the nature of the debate are unsourced, along with some of the rebuttals. Not to mention that pages like this shouldn't even exist in Wikipedia to begin with, it should be integrated into the article on evolutionary psychology (and no, I don't care if "it's hard.") The additional resources for people interested in the criticisms is buried far below the resources for the rebuttals, and is quite small. I think that betrays the obvious purpose of this page. I'll be fixing that for now (since it's odd for the counter-arguments to precede the arguments, and for the arguments themselves to be buried below the notes.) Vesperal 22:30, 24 September 2007 (UTC)[reply]

After reading through the article again, I also saw plenty of problems with the criticisms, so I went through and tagged all the unsourced claims. I'm no longer sure what this page is supposed to be for. I put up an original research and expert needed tag, since contrary to my first impression, this articles appears to just be forum chatter that's spilled over into Wikipedia. Vesperal 23:09, 24 September 2007 (UTC)[reply]

In total agreement - article is slanted to the point of being ridiculous. I wonder if pages on phrenology would be like this if that science was still fashionable? —Preceding unsigned comment added by 213.1.210.26 (talk) 22:49, 1 May 2009 (UTC)[reply]

I agree with this train of thought. EP is not a large enough field to have a separate article debating its merits. This article should be greatly condensed and appended to the main EP article. All criticisms and rebuttals lacking citations should be removed. Criticisms should be categorized into three or four main points. Sean Weigold Ferguson 04:18, 11 August 2010 (UTC)

See the "talk" section of the main EP article. Critics of EP were turning the main EP article into a debate, and making content edits that mis-characterized the field. Rather than engage in continual edit wars, better that it be moved here so both sides can make their best case, and hash it out. I disagree with Vesperal's comment above (but don't find it surprising given that in his user profile he quotes a critic of EP). Memills 05:50, 29 September 2007 (UTC)[reply]

Please sign your posts. If the information I tagged can be found in any "intro evol psych book" then please go get one and source the statements. I also still think that this debate (at least some of it) should eventually be moved back into the main article once it gets cleaned up a bit.Vesperal 23:02, 28 September 2007 (UTC)[reply]

I only retagged one statement: "EP fully accepts nature-nurture interactionism." Although I'm pretty sure this is true, I'd still like to see this sourced.Vesperal 23:07, 28 September 2007 (UTC)[reply]

Vesperal -- for a good overview of EP see the EP FAQ by Ed Hagan: http://www.anth.ucsb.edu/projects/human/evpsychfaq.html

as well as his paper "Controversies surrounding evolutionary psychology" http://itb.biologie.hu-berlin.de/~hagen/papers/Controversies.pdf

I'll try to add more refs soon. Memills 05:50, 29 September 2007 (UTC)[reply]

Anyone else find these 'rebuttals' suspiciously shallow for a serious academic? I clicked on the 'What about learning?' FAQ answer to find the following argument: "How could an organism learn this type of information? It would have to very carefully observe lifetime reproductive outcomes for many different mateships, controlling for other variables like health, access to resources, etc. This is obviously impossible. Life is just too short to learn this kind of information, yet men have precisely the preferences predicted by evolutionary theory. These preferences must have evolved." It wasn't atypical of the source material offered. Adhib (talk) 21:01, 21 February 2010 (UTC)[reply]

I think having this page is a good idea. However, the structure of the article seems to give the appearance of a bias towards evolutionary psychology. Specifically, I'm referring to how there's a criticism of EP, followed by a rebuttal, followed by the next criticism, followed by the next rebuttal, and so forth. In this article, EP gets "the last word". I think it's a good idea to have this page, since EP is so controversial, but I'm not quite sure what would be the best way to structure it. EPM 21:35, 12 October 2007 (UTC)[reply]

This article actually leads like a one of the arguments from Aquinas (whose method I hope I can discuss without being accused of bias against this article), wherein he starts with a question, then sets forth first a statement that answers the question in the opposite way from what he thinks (for example, to the question, "Does God exist?" he starts with "It would seem that God does not exist, because..."). Then he makes his real argument, where he says what he really thinks ("I the contrary, I assert that..."). The point is that, in this method, the first argument is set up to fail, and the counter-argument always looks better, especially since it has the final word. This method may be very effective in proving a point, but an encyclopedia article is meant to provide unbiased information---nor do I think the question of the validity of Evolutionary Psychology so completely undisputed that one can say, "Well, this is what science has proven, whether you like it or not." Corbmobile (talk) 22:06, 21 December 2007 (UTC)[reply]

I tend to agree. There already exists a separate "Evolutionary Psychology" page, and the case for EP should be made there. There is definitely some sort of dialectic happening here with the criticisms of EP always rebuffed.

This article is a particularly fine example of how wikipedia can be misleading – a complex topic like this requires the efforts of an expert (not just in the science but in encyclopaedic writing) – perhaps luckily, it seemed clear to me that no such person has contributed here before I invested time in reading it... A quick glance reveals what is to all appearances a systemic bias. An article about the criticisms of something shouldn't list them and then purport to debunk each one – it smacks of one-sidedness (what's more, it serves to diminish a casual reader's initial interest in the topic). Consider that if, in reality, all such criticisms have been so thoroughly dealt with, there is no 'controversy' and hence no real requirement for this article in the first place! Rewrite or restructure it in the form of an encyclopaedic article if it is to be taken at all seriously as such. Fixbot (talk) 23:32, 29 November 2007 (UTC)[reply]

As Fixbot says above, "An article about the criticisms of something shouldn't list them and then purport to debunk each one – it smacks of one-sidedness", is absolutely correct. Comments? Chet Ubetcha (talk) 06:14, 14 January 2008 (UTC)[reply]

As of September '8, this the format lays out the dimensions of the controversy well - criticisms are outlined, followed by some limiting counter-criticism. The structure doesn't suggest (to me, at least) that the counter-criticisms are conclusions, just because they come last. Baadog (talk) 12:23, 3 September 2008 (UTC)[reply]

Under "Criticisms of Inherited/Modular Psychological Traits," Some of the criticisms are listed, but it is followed by the statement:

"For some research done to address these criticisms, see [3] Daly and Wilson's response to Buller's criticism above, Delton, Robertson, Kenrick (2006) The Mating Game Isn’t Over: A Reply to Buller’s Critique of the Evolutionary Psychology of Mating. [4], Miele (2006) Evolutionary Psychology is Here to Stay: A Response to Buller. [5], and Bryant (2006) On Hasty Generalization About Evolutionary Psychology [6]."

Firstly, it is not at all clear that anything in these articles 'address' these criticisms - yet it is stated as if they do. If such a statement is going to remain, it needs to be shown exactly how the criticisms are addressed in the articles. Secondly, it seems unfair that the 'critic' side needs to state the criticisms in this article while the EP side simply glosses over the issue and lists articles as if that dismisses the criticisms- the reader needs to sift through those various articles themselves, which does not seem fair; the presentation is therefore biased in favor of EP. I am tempted to delete this section if it is not fixed. — Preceding unsigned comment added by Logic prevails (talk • contribs) 21:17, 19 January 2011 (UTC)[reply]

The two articles are each rather long. If they are merged the new article will be too long for some computers to handle. Then there will be pressure to split the article or to delete large sections of the content. Am I being paranoid? Could there be a conspiracy by opponents of evolution/evolutionary psychology to sabotage part of the articles?Barbara Shack (talk) 17:12, 16 January 2008 (UTC)[reply]

The reason I would like to see them merged is that the EP main article makes short shrift of the very real criticisms, whereas the EPC page is written inappropriately and is overlong. EP is controversial within the scientific community, unlike, evolutionary biology. Chet Ubetcha (talk) 18:26, 16 January 2008 (UTC)[reply]

The main EP page should be about EP -- what it is. Historically, anti-EP folks have previously attempted to turn the main page into a political critique of the field. And, many of them have had a very meager understanding of the field.

It is significant that those here who promote a merger complain about bias, however, none of them contribute to the content of the article itself. If they have something useful to contribute re criticisms of the field, then do so. And, then let the other side state their counterarguments. This is an excellent way for readers to assess both sides of the controversy and to arrive at their own judgments.

There is a great deal of misinformation / disinformation about EP. This page helps to list the arguments pro and con. In addition, there are those who fall into the trap of the naturalistic fallacy and/or moralistic fallacy who simply misunderstand the field, and who may have essentially political, rather than scientific motivations. Memills (talk) 06:43, 20 January 2008 (UTC)[reply]

I would not quibble about the existence of a separate page. I am indeed no expert on biology, psychology, but I am a high school English teacher, if that counts for anything, and I think I can tell when the structure of something is meant to support one point or another. As it stands, this article seems to be supporting the conclusion that EP is valid and that the criticisms of it are not. If the scientific community at large has come to this conclusion, then this whole section ought not to exist or at least to be so long.

The only thing I would suggest is that the article be trimmed down and the "criticism" "counter-criticism" format scrapped for something else...I really have no idea, maybe something like an essay, at least something different than always letting EP get the final word. Again, if the scientific community thinks those who object to EP such triflers as they seem here, then there really isn't any need for this page to exist at all. Corbmobile (talk) 05:12, 26 January 2008 (UTC)[reply]

Some of the critics of EP are scientists. The controversy is real, unlike the manufactured controversy about evolution. Chet Ubetcha (talk) 21:05, 26 January 2008 (UTC)[reply]

• You have to ask yourself, "Why are laypeople and respected scientists anti-EP?" Chet Ubetcha (talk) 04:16, 21 January 2008 (UTC)[reply]

All I really asked for were references. For example, the counter-argument about EP being Ethnocentric is completely unsourced and written in a very informal way. The counter-argument to Reification is also completely unsourced and frankly looks like OR. The response to the "is-ought" criticism amounts to "no they don't". I don't really care for the idea of merging, but I would rather this article didn't look like an internet forum argument that spilled over into Wikipedia. This isn't my area of expertise, so I don't have sources on hand to fix either side of the argument. I think removing the "criticism" and "counter-argument" headers would help. It would also force the use of sources, since you would need them in order to write a coherent paragraph. No one could vaguely refer to "Evolutionary Psychologists" or "Critics". And I would still like to see more of this in the main EP article.Vesperal (talk) 04:31, 6 March 2008 (UTC)[reply]

A lot of the counter-arguments seem to be "No they don't" or "they shouldn't". I shortened one such in the Ethnocentricism section. Presumably the critics (one of which is cited and quoted) are pointing to the specific studies that they claim are culturally limited. Pointing out that some researchers compare cultures so eliminate ethnocentricism does little to counter the general criticism that the field in general often fials to do so. It needs a general reponse that says good quality theories do not do this, or that EP should not do this. The criticisms are not only about what EP aims to do, but also about the sloppy methods some researchers use.Dillypickle (talk) 14:28, 14 January 2009 (UTC)[reply]

There are a few of the same folks who keep re-appearing on this page who clearly have an ax to grind with EP. Their approach seems to be to repeatedly tag the page as in dispute, or complain about the structure of the article or the rebuttals to criticisms, yet they do not make substantive contributions to the page. Please, if you wish to contribute, take the time to do the background reading, and then make worthwhile contributions. If an argument can be improved, do so. If there is a missing reference, find one.

As a professor with a specialization in EP, I can tell you that those of us in this field have thoroughly evaluated the criticisms -- and many of them are either uninformed mis/dis-information about EP, or they are simply straw men (i.e., arguments that suggest that evolutionary psychologist believe something that they do not). It doesn't help the critics' case when it is clear that they have little knowledge of the field. However, we are certainly willing to review and seriously consider informed criticism, and we encourage its discussion here. Memills (talk) 16:51, 27 March 2008 (UTC)[reply]

Memills; you say this, but then I try to make the article less slanted and you revert the changes back to this EP biased article (and on a 'controversy' page no less). For example, I deleted:

"The history of debate from the evolutionary psychology perspective is covered in detail in books by Segerstråle (2000) and Alcock (2001)); also see a recent overview of EP with rebuttals to critics in Tooby, J. & Cosmides, L. (2005). Conceptual foundations of evolutionary psychology. Full text, as well as Controversies surrounding evolutionary psychology by Edward H. Hagen, both in D. M. Buss (Ed.), The Handbook of Evolutionary Psychology (Hoboken, NJ: Wiley)."

I deleted this because readers interested in the 'history of the debate' will get a version that is entirely from the perspective of EP. If you are going to keep this, I would like you to add "... a history of the debate from the perspective of EP proponents" or something to that effect. After which, I will add references from critics who provide their view of the 'history of the debate.' I thought the whole thing unnecessary at the start of the article when you use the same references later on.

I also deleted: "The main critics are today perhaps the philosophers of science David Buller author of Adapting Minds and Robert C. Richardson author of Evolutionary Psychology as Maladapted Psychology." My reasons for doing so is that again, it makes it sound as if those are the only 'main' critics, that aside from these two outliers, the rest of the field is in agreement with EP, which is not true at all. They are some of the few that bothered to write entire books refuting the logic and method of the field, but they are by no means the only ones. Again, I could have listed all of the other critics here as being 'main', but it would be unnecessary - I was going to add points here and there in the sections below. Again you reverted by changes in a direction that serves your bias.

I also changed the wording of: "Criticisms of the field have also been addressed by scholars" to "Some criticisms of the field have also been addressed by proponents of evolutionary psychology," but another user reverted those changes as well. The previous sentence makes it sound as if all criticisms have been addressed and that they were addressed by 'scholars,' that might include the entire field of psychology, but that is not the case.

My efforts here seem wasted. You wonder why none of the 'critics' bother to contribute? Its because there is a clear bias toward EP in a page that is supposed to represent the side of the controversy. If you cannot keep this page unbiased - then delete it. And if you won't let me re-work it into something neutral and intelligible, then I will just spam it with critical articles without deleting or re-working anything. Logic prevails (talk) 10:18, 18 January 2011 (UTC)[reply]

A few points:

1) I don't have an ax to grind with anyone. I'm sorry you feel that way. I actually appreciate the link you posted above, it cleared a lot up for me.

2) The paragraphs I discussed above were singled out for their vagueness. Are you seriously suggesting that I wade through years of the vast bulk of EP literature to find an argument similar to the one under Reification, for instance? The person who added it should come back and reference it, or someone who is familiar with the argument should add the reference. I have no freaking clue and wouldn't even know where to start.

3) It doesn't matter if the criticisms are good. They just need to be notable criticisms and referenced. Many criticisms of EP are complete nonsense, but they should still be addressed, given the ruckus they tend to stir up.

4) "Thorough evaluation of the criticisms" is great and all, but not if it isn't on this page and it isn't referenced. If these evaluations extended beyond coffee house banter and into actual published material, then it needs to be in the article.

5) There may be some concern with the fact that I am criticizing and article on a topic that I am clearly uninformed about. I would just like to remind everyone, that as an uninformed reader, I am the target audience of this article. If it isn't encyclopedic enough for people like me, then we have a problem.

6) Memills is no doubt getting frustrated being, effectively, the only contributor to this article. I'm sure he has better things to do with his time than safe guard this article and listen to people whine on the talk pages. We need to find some way to draw in more people who understand the science of EP and people who are actually critics of EP.

7) I'm going to be bold and change the structure of the article myself, since that is something I can do. Vesperal (talk) 03:37, 29 March 2008 (UTC)[reply]

Ok, all done. I removed the "criticism" and "rebuttal" headings and evened out some of the language to make it clear within the section when a point and counter-point was being made. Added some {{Fact}} and an ^{[original research?]} tag (see my 6 March 2008 comment on why). One problem I noticed is that the Criticism section on the Sociobiology page seems to be nothing but a link to this page. Not sure what to do about that since this is almost all new research being talked about, I sure don't want to get into an edit war at that page. I'm happier with how the page looks anyway. Suggestions welcome on how to solve the problem of the lack of contributors.Vesperal (talk) 04:39, 29 March 2008 (UTC)[reply]

I have removed the "counter argument" headings. I have no particular opinion on EP (i have a biology degree, and have just started my first module of psych for fun), but these headings just made this article needlessly argumentative. Also some of the "arguments" didn't really address the others points, so it seemed more like a discussion to me, which flows far better as prose without seperating paragraphs into pro and anti. If the reader has to be told that a sentence is a counterpoint, then it probably isn't - this would be obvious from the text itself, and the ideas therein.Dillypickle (talk) 10:01, 19 August 2008 (UTC)[reply]

Here's one: http://members.iinet.net.au/~sejones/PoE/pe15socl.html#sclscblgy. GregorB (talk) 16:07, 14 April 2009 (UTC)[reply]

In an edit just now, I removed the statement, as well as its attached reference:

"These "facts" asserted by Gould have been widely disputed."

Tstrobaugh (who recently added this sentence), if you read this, what I want to know is what "facts" asserted by Gould you are referring to? Why are "facts" in scare quotes? Does one citation justify "widely"? I can't access the cited article as it is not publicly available, so maybe giving more information about the disputations would be useful. 130.58.248.241 (talk) 21:20, 30 July 2009 (UTC)[reply]

The quote from Noam Chomsky does not have the appropriate rebuttal. The rebuttal is that whether or not cooperating or defecting is advantageous from an evolutionary perspective depends on the size of the social groups that are formed. There is a mathematical algorithm to determine the group size given certain levels of cooperation but I do not have it on hand.

EP, as does psychological science in general, operates under the assumption that human behavior has causal roots.

Memills, there's a gap in the rebuttal here that I wonder if you can offer a filler for - I'd love to go and educate myself! For now, the statement assumes that the only phenomena that can be admitted into a causal relation with a material event must themselves be 'material'. This seems philosophically presumptuous (Donald Davidson springs to mind [1]). I'm sure you guys have got it covered, but could you help an old axe-grinder see where? Adhib (talk) 17:05, 27 September 2009 (UTC)[reply]

What's the best reliable source that says EP is bunk? We should summarize what it says in the lead. Leadwind (talk) 17:53, 29 January 2011 (UTC)[reply]

This page deserves a regular lead just like WP:LEAD says. The lead should be suitable or close to suitable for use as the "Controversy" section on the main EP page. Leadwind (talk) 17:54, 29 January 2011 (UTC)[reply]

Can someone please tell me how it makes any sense to 'spam' the introductory paragraph with references to articles? MeMills, I think you are the main culprit here... can you tell us why you feel the need to put them here versus taking a bit more time to show the reader how the references address the specific criticisms? I think it would make more sense to reference them as they apply to the main headings below, and then add them to the 'further reading' sections at the bottom. If we are going to reference an article, we should show how it relates to the specific sub-topics in the article. Doing otherwise is misleading and academically lazy. I have read the Confer et al. article - it does not even come close to addressing the main issues, but if someone wants to take the time to reference it in the ways you think it does, I would be happy to point out (with other peer reviewed sources) how they do not. If the consensus of others is to keep adding references to the first couple paragraphs, I will be happy to add a bunch more from the 'critics perspective.' However, for the same reasons stated above, I would think that inappropriate. Logic prevails (talk) 15:52, 5 February 2011 (UTC)[reply]

I guess you are talking about the "Controversies related to Evolutionary Psychology and Sociobiology" section with text like "Also see recent overviews...". Text like that is not appropriate for an article. I would not recommend quickly deleting the current text, but in due course it should be rephrased to be of the form "Such and such is a fact/assertion[ref]" where the external link is used as the [ref]—that is, useful information from the source is added to the article, and the source is used as a reference (and it would have to satisfy WP:IRS). Johnuniq (talk) 01:15, 6 February 2011 (UTC)[reply]

Someone has deleted a reference from the 'critic' side and moved a relevant quote down to the notes section. This against NPOV policy. Logic prevails (talk) 19:51, 10 February 2011 (UTC)[reply]

Quote the part about NPOV that I violated. You don't need a block quote if a sentence will do. That's good writing. Leadwind (talk) 20:03, 10 February 2011 (UTC)[reply]

This is a very thorough and important quote from the perspective of a neuroscientist. By effectively omitting it or moving it to the bottom of the page, you serve to keep the page biased in favor of the proponents of EP. There are plenty of block quotes on the main EP page citing the proponents - I cannot just go in there, summarize them, and delete at random. Also, if that was you who took out the Wallace book, then shame on you! While MeMills gets away with listing every book or article in the world for the proponents, the critics side gets deleted!? Logic prevails (talk) 21:53, 10 February 2011 (UTC)[reply]

My God it's a minefield!! Do we need a page titled "Critics of Evolutionary Psychology Critics" linked here? Can't we keep discussions to the Talk page, and Criticisms here? It's a page about criticisms, they don't need to be rebutted. That's what the much bigger main page is for.