Talk:Vladimir Putin: Difference between revisions

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Vladimir Putin was a good article nominee, but did not meet the good article criteria at the time. There are suggestions below for improving the article. Once these are addressed, the article can be renominated. Editors may also seek a reassessment of the decision if they believe there was a mistake. Reviewed version: April 15, 2008

Archives

Index Archive 1 Archive 2 Archive 3 Archive 4 Archive 5 Archive 6 Archive 7 Archive 8 Archive 9 Archive 10 Archive 11 Archive 12 Archive 13 Archive 14 Archive 15 Archive 16 Archive 17 Archive 18

In the interests of getting this article back on track, I've archived the talk page into Archive 3.

Clean slate, folks. Let's try to get over the content disputes and produce a good article. Ender78 (talk) 21:28, 25 May 2008 (UTC)[reply]

It is clear from the issues with this article and from the talk and controversies arising thereof that Vladimir Putin is not only a topic that is not "going away", but also one that is seen very, very differently by folks from different nationalities and backgrounds. It is equally clear that the Putin era will be regarded by future historians as a watershed moment in Russian history, likely discussing things in a context of "Before Putin" and "After Putin". This is all fine, but at the same time, our job here is to keep the matter factual, informative, and easy to read.Ender78 (talk) 21:28, 25 May 2008 (UTC)[reply]

Here's the three areas I recommend we work on:

• Keeping the intro brief and informative, and without ideological bias.
• Narrowing and consolidating the lengthier sub-sections, but again, without ideological bias in any direction, Creating separate articles dealing with Putin's policies and acts as Russian President and populating those articles with the lengthier passages from this main article.
• Expanding sections in this article, and others, expanding on Putin's context, role, and interactions within the Russian government.

To this end, I've started the following sub-topics here on the talk page:

I would suggest to remove things like "Putins regime" - sounds biased. Your opinions please. Oleg_Str--212.111.199.30 (talk) 13:17, 29 May 2008 (UTC).[reply]

Please discuss here what needs done with the introduction, bearing in mind that the entire point to an introduction is brevity and clarity in explaining the content to be covered later in the article. Ender78 (talk) 21:32, 25 May 2008 (UTC)[reply]

That introduction is starting to bloat up again, guys. Do we need percentages and achievements-in-full in the intro? I've always felt that an intro should make you want to read the rest of the article, not tell you up-front what the rest of the article says. Ender78 (talk) 01:57, 29 May 2008 (UTC)[reply]

Please discuss here sub-topics that can be shortened, with lengthier passages incorporated into lengthier articles specific to that topic (eg. "Russian Foreign Policy under Vladimir Putin"). Essentially, when in doubt as to how to handle a particular content addition, I would counsel editors to consult biographies of modern US Presidents (with the exception of G.W. Bush, himself an ideological battleground article) for ideas, since they're generally well-written, concise, and well-organized into sections, sub-topics, and related articles.Ender78 (talk) 21:33, 25 May 2008 (UTC)[reply]

New-article creations: (Please list all subsequent new articles here and sign it, and also add a section for discussion Ender78 (talk) 21:37, 25 May 2008 (UTC))[reply]

• Criticism of Vladimir Putin Ender78 (talk) 21:37, 25 May 2008 (UTC)[reply]
• Foreign Policy of Vladimir Putin Ender78 (talk) 22:17, 25 May 2008 (UTC)[reply]

Once these sub-articles are fully fleshed-out, it is encouraged that editors delete, consolidate, and summarize these sections within the main Vladimir Putin article. Ender78 (talk) 22:59, 25 May 2008 (UTC)[reply]

Is anyone interested in taking on the task of whittling down the content under "Public Support and Criticism" and "Foreign Policy" now that the sub-articles have been established? If not, I'll start hacking it down in the next week to ten days. Ender78 (talk) 02:00, 29 May 2008 (UTC)[reply]

This is an aspect of the Russian government that outsiders know little about, and about which our Russian or Russian-oriented editors can enlighten us. Nobody runs a government by themselves; even Stalin had to work within his system to get his desired results. Fleshing out these fine details of how Putin conducted the duties of his office will substantially help to define the man in a biographical sense. Ender78 (talk) 21:33, 25 May 2008 (UTC)[reply]

I am worried that the article lacks any information on Putin's program and positions (at least in the simplest sense of left-right politics) and concentrates way too much on what happened in Russia during his tenure. I know, it is notoriously difficult to find out what his program and positions are. After all, most of Russian voters don't care much about political positions in this sense and vote for personalities rather than policies, and the Russian press follows them. I am afraid that Russian sources are not particularly helpful here exactly for this reason. But it is essential to include such information if we wish to see this article improved. Colchicum (talk) 15:15, 26 May 2008 (UTC)[reply]

I am not sure there is a universally agreed conception what the Program/Results were/are. It is my understanding that Putin as deliberately vague about his "Plan"/intention. We have Putinism article to talk about his policies. Regarding Left/Right (Paleoconservator/Social Democrat/Neo-laborist, etc.) concepts I am not sure that using labels from the Western European/USA politics is productive outside this region. Was Saddam Hussein a liberal or a conservator? Pugachev? Stalin? Alex Bakharev (talk) 01:50, 27 May 2008 (UTC)[reply]

I have supported creation of an article about Putin's foreign policy, but creation of Criticism of Vladimir Putin I do not support. The size of the section is not excessive, and the whole idea appears to be POV-forkish to me, while done with best intentions, no doubt. I know, a similar article exist on G. Bush, but I do not know the reasons. Per my quick check there is no similar article on B. Clinton, for example. So, my preference is to keep content in the main article, without fork. Thanks. Kulikovsky (talk) 00:39, 26 May 2008 (UTC)[reply]

The idea is precisely to allow for further expansion of the ideas presented, without it becoming a battleground. In this manner, we can summarize the criticisms in the main article, while presenting links into the more specific article throughout. We can also have some overlapping/duplicated content. My personal primary goal is simply to get the overall length of the main article shorter and more readable, NOT to whitewash or dissemble any of Putin's alleged abuses of power. Ender78 (talk) 00:43, 26 May 2008 (UTC)[reply]

The following paragraph raises some questions, and possibly contains some synthesis.

While several Yeltsin era oligarchs such as Boris Berezovsky and Mikhail Khodorkovsky were either exiled or put in jail, the vast majority of them such as Mikhail Fridman, Viktor Vekselberg, Leonid Fedun, Vladimir Potanin, Roman Abramovich,Alexander Abramov, Mikhail Prokhorov, maximized and consolidated their control over russian natural resources and cash flows.^{[1][2][3][4][5]}

I do not see that sources say anything supporting "maximized and consolidated their control over russian natural resources and cash flows". Neither did I see where "the vast majority" came from. Did I miss something? Until this is cleared, I will remove the content from the article as per WP:BLP. Also, most recently this material was added to the "first term" [presidential] section. Is that section appropriate if the assertions are true? Kulikovsky (talk) 18:55, 28 May 2008 (UTC)[reply]

This text was fine. All these people became much richer during Putn's rule - see Forbes lists, for example.Biophys (talk) 21:27, 28 May 2008 (UTC)[reply]

The forbes link clearly shows how exponentially rich these fraudsters have become under Putin rule. The names Chemezov, Yakunin, Sechin are nowhere to be found, but Abramovich, Abramov, Fridman, etc who are looting the natural resources and buying yatches and football clubs are littered in the list right at the top.

Kulikovsky is obviously deeply biased and wants to selectively demand references. May be he is editing on behalf of these oligarchs? Is there any way he can be investigated through his ip address? How can I trace kulikovsky's ip address and request an investigation. Samstayton (talk) 23:06, 28 May 2008 (UTC)[reply]

That's a perfect example of subtle original research, the type that this article is filled with already. The articles don't support the text at all and it should be removed promptly. The billionaires in Russia are not "oligarchs" with any political control like the oligarchs had in the 90s, and as such have nothing to do with Putin. Krawndawg (talk) 23:00, 28 May 2008 (UTC)[reply]

Samstayon, I would highly advise against attempting to find out personal information about an editor. Please read WP:AGF.Krawndawg (talk) 23:09, 28 May 2008 (UTC)[reply]

I agree with what Krawndawg said. Also, honestly, "maximized and consolidated" sounds like plain nonsense. "The vast majority" sounds questionable and POV-like. So, I wanted to see quotes from good sources directly supporting these statements. Just to be sure this is not a wild interpretation made by a wikipedian. I am pretty sure such statements cannot be found in Forbes lists. Does it make sense? Kulikovsky (talk) 23:14, 28 May 2008 (UTC)[reply]

I think these accusations must be removed instantly, otherwise we seriously run the risk of WP being sued by Russian authorities. I understand there are many russophobes here, but this time it has gone too far. Thank you. Cfeet77 (talk) 21:56, 28 May 2008 (UTC)[reply]

I hereby declare that I will be personally removing such accusations instantly whenever I see them, even if such removal of mine violates the 3RR rule. You are welcome to report such potential violation to the ANI noticeboard if you find such reporting appropriate, even without first warning me on my talk page. Cfeet77 (talk) 22:40, 28 May 2008 (UTC)[reply]

It was a baseless accusation made by conspiracy theorist/FSB defector Alexander Litvinenko, who was known for making many other extreme allegations/attacks against Putin with no evidence to his claims (or circumstantial at best). Such personal attacks do not belong on biographies of living persons. Krawndawg (talk) 22:54, 28 May 2008 (UTC)[reply]

Good thing he was killed don't you think? - PietervHuis (talk) 17:04, 29 May 2008 (UTC)[reply]