Talk:2024 Lebanon electronic device attacks: Difference between revisions

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First of all, some of the English language sources that I've reviewed do not state that ONLY Hezbollah militants were injured. Secondly, the "Background" section contains multiple past attacks involving Hezbollah, Lebanon and Israel, while many of the sources have nothing to do with the pager explosions (not including the defense official issue). This is likely a violation of WP:SYNTH, where editors try to connect multiple events together because they believe the events are related even when no reliable source made a connection. Nythar (💬-🍀) 15:07, 17 September 2024 (UTC)[reply]

There is currently no indication that the car explosion in Syria had anything to do with the pager explosions in Lebanon. Nythar (💬-🍀) 15:20, 17 September 2024 (UTC)[reply]

Agree with both. 1. This is isolated to lebanon and 2. apparently Iran's ambassador was also wounded, along with civilians.Sportsnut24 (talk) 03:23, 18 September 2024 (UTC)[reply]

• Aside from the fact that civilians were injured, we also know that a girl was killed[1]. But this keeps getting removed. Why? VR _{(Please ping on reply)} 17:21, 17 September 2024 (UTC)[reply]

  I mention it was a claim by Hezbollah, not even by the Lebanese Ministry of Health. 2.55.163.43 (talk) 17:33, 17 September 2024 (UTC)[reply]

  until further confirmation may be best to wait on that claim or perhaps add "Hezbollah also alleged a 9 year old child was killed by one of the pagers but this claim has not yet been confirmed" though probably best to just wait Ticketthedog (talk) 19:01, 17 September 2024 (UTC)[reply]

  • ABC News says[2] "killing at least nine people – including an 8-year-old girl -- and wounding several thousand, officials said." So it doesn't seem like only a Hezbollah claim.
  • We also have: "The 10-year-old daughter of a Hezbollah member was killed in Lebanon's east when his pager exploded on Tuesday, her family and a source close to the group said. "A 10-year-old girl was martyred in the Bekaa Valley after her father's pager exploded while he was next to her," her relatives told AFP."" So we seem to have sufficient confirmation.VR _{(Please ping on reply)} 20:27, 17 September 2024 (UTC)[reply]
  • AP confirmed the death of an 8-year-old girl: At least 9 people killed in pager explosions
• I see claims above of 8-year old, 9-year old, and 10-year old, with no reliable source. There's not enough substance here to put it in the article.

How is AP now a reliable source? VR _{(Please ping on reply)} 04:37, 18 September 2024 (UTC)[reply]

It has been proposed in this section that 2024 Lebanon electronic device attacks be renamed and moved to 2024 Lebanon–Syria pager explosions. A bot will list this discussion on the requested moves current discussions subpage within an hour of this tag being placed. The discussion may be closed 7 days after being opened, if consensus has been reached (see the closing instructions). Please base arguments on article title policy, and keep discussion succinct and civil. Please use {{subst:requested move}}. Do not use {{requested move/dated}} directly. Links: current log • target log • direct move

2024 Lebanon pager explosions → 2024 Lebanon–Syria pager explosions – Reports on pager explosions in Syria with multiple confirmed deaths: Times of Israel Prodrummer619 (talk) 16:27, 17 September 2024 (UTC)[reply]

Oppose – It appears that most sources are focusing on Lebanon as this was the primary site of the explosion, with significantly less in Syria. Nice4What (talk · contribs) – (Thanks ♥) 18:04, 17 September 2024 (UTC)[reply]

Support – while most explosions were in Lebanon, that there were explosions in Syria is still very important politically. RedAuburn (talk) 18:10, 17 September 2024 (UTC)[reply]

Oppose – it appears the overwhelming majority of injuries took place inside Lebanon. Reliable sources report 3,000 injuries in Lebanon, and only 14 in Syria (BBC). These numbers may change, but as it stands this seems primarily a Lebanese event – which is exactly how it's being discussed and headlined in most reliable sources. Including Syria in the infobox and lead is enough, IMHO. GhostOfNoMan 18:18, 17 September 2024 (UTC)[reply]

Neutral – I would propose a rename to 2024 Hezbollah pager explosions (or similar), since that seems to be the central association between the explosions. Nearly half of those killed were in Syria. Here's an example of the BBC using the name "Hezbollah pager explosions" https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/articles/cz04m913m49o Eastwood Park and strabane (talk) 18:38, 17 September 2024 (UTC)[reply]

Oppose - I tend to agree with GhostOfNoMan; the overwhelming majority of this incident happened within Lebanon. Whizkin (talk) 18:49, 17 September 2024 (UTC)[reply]

It should be renamed 2024 Hezbollah pager explosions because it were Hezbollah's pagers that exploded (not restricting geographic range). MathKnight 19:01, 17 September 2024 (UTC)[reply]

That's a good idea Whizkin (talk) 04:56, 18 September 2024 (UTC)[reply]

I second this decision Ch3sp1n13 (talk) 06:11, 18 September 2024 (UTC)[reply]

I very much support this. DeadlyRampage26 (talk) 07:40, 18 September 2024 (UTC)[reply]

Support - Although the majority of the explosions occurred in Lebanon, the number of explosions in Syria was more than a handful (so far it's in the double-digits), and (as of this writing) the death toll in Syria is similar to the death toll in Lebanon. The Mountain of Eden (talk) 19:03, 17 September 2024 (UTC)[reply]

• Oppose Jerusalem Post reports that "operatives" are also wounded in Iraq (link). Thuresson (talk) 19:14, 17 September 2024 (UTC)[reply]

  The Jerusalem Post does not report a specific number of explosions in Iraq, nor any injuries or deaths in Iraq. Therefore, I would treat all information about explosions in Iraq as "unconfirmed" until we get more specific information. The Mountain of Eden (talk) 19:35, 17 September 2024 (UTC)[reply]

Oppose - There are relatively fewer mentions of explosions in Syria in the media and the target remains Lebanese Hezbollah (not to be confused with Iraqi Hezbollah). The fact that Lebanese Hezbollah has a presence in Syria and as such some pager explosions also happened in Syria, is insignificant and likely a coincidence caused by the explosions being indiscriminate. RisingTzar (talk) 19:48, 17 September 2024 (UTC)[reply]

Wait - We should rename it as "Hezbollah pagers explosions". There were explosions reported in Iraq as well, but we should wait a bit I think. Givibidou (talk) 19:55, 17 September 2024 (UTC)[reply]

Strong oppose for this proposed title; the overwhelming majority of the pagers were in Lebanon, as RS coverage has proven. I strongly support this article's move to the title of 2024 Lebanon pagers attack; this is a state-terrorist attack, not an "explosion." Makeandtoss (talk) 20:00, 17 September 2024 (UTC)[reply]

@Makeandtoss Apart from Twitter who else is calling it a state-terrorist attack? Prodrummer619 (talk) 20:05, 17 September 2024 (UTC)[reply]

Scholars will eventually describe it for what it is, a state-terrorist attack. Aside from the description, the proposed title of 2024 Lebanon pagers attack is currently supported by RS: [3] [4] [5] [6] [7] Makeandtoss (talk) 20:16, 17 September 2024 (UTC)[reply]

WP:CRYSTALBALL. We don’t go off of what you or anyone here thinks will “eventually” happen. If you’re going to continue calling it a “terrorist attack” here that shows you don’t want to contribute in good faith but only to push your POV. -bɜ:ʳkənhɪmez | me | talk to me! 20:42, 17 September 2024 (UTC)[reply]

No one said we will or we should; I clearly and explicitly differentiated between the descriptor (terrorist attack), and the title (attack); the latter is the topic of discussion here. As for the lack of assumption of good faith and the ad hominem, I will not respond to that. Makeandtoss (talk) 21:02, 17 September 2024 (UTC)[reply]

Here are more RS that use the word "attack": Guardian,Axios, WSJ.VR _{(Please ping on reply)} 07:23, 18 September 2024 (UTC)[reply]

Oppose proposed title, would support a title similar to 2024 Hezbollah pager explosions to remove the country (since it occurred in at least 2 countries) as recommended above, but there’s unlikely to be enough emphasis on that proposed title here to prevent another RM from being necessary for that title specifically. -bɜ:ʳkənhɪmez | me | talk to me! 20:44, 17 September 2024 (UTC)[reply]

Support this. DeadlyRampage26 (talk) 07:42, 18 September 2024 (UTC)[reply]

• Oppose proposed title, it should probably be something along the lines of 2024 Hezbollah pager explosions Scuba 21:05, 17 September 2024 (UTC)[reply]
• Support the title as it accurately reflects the countries where this took place. Also support calling this "attack" as WP:CONSISTENT with other events in this conflict: Nabatieh attack, Majdal Shams attack etc.VR _{(Please ping on reply)} 21:24, 17 September 2024 (UTC)[reply]
• Oppose and second other suggestions of 2024 Hezbollah pager explosions, a simple descriptive title that avoids this particular controversy. LjL (talk) 01:35, 18 September 2024 (UTC)[reply]

  Oppose "2024 Hezbollah pager explosions" as there is significant evidence that civilians unaffiliated with Hezbollah were killed and wounded in the attack.VR _{(Please ping on reply)} 04:05, 18 September 2024 (UTC)[reply]

  • The devices doing the exploding are Hezbollah pagers. There is generally significant evidence of collateral damage in targeted attacks, that doesn't mean we need to use vague titles. 5225_C (talk • contributions) 05:07, 18 September 2024 (UTC)[reply]

    Whether this is a targeted attack at all is disputed by some RS. Many have called it "indiscriminate"[8][9][10]. Pagers belonging to healthcare workers might also be affected[11].VR _{(Please ping on reply)} 07:20, 18 September 2024 (UTC)[reply]

• Support Some mainstream outlets may have got it wrong that only Lebanon was targeted. Syria was targeted too. Dympies (talk) 01:55, 18 September 2024 (UTC)[reply]
• Oppose as 2024 Hezbollah pager explosions is a better title, though this suggested title is better than the current one. Raskuly (talk) 03:43, 18 September 2024 (UTC)[reply]
• Support No reason to exclude Syria from the title. Bremps... 03:47, 18 September 2024 (UTC)[reply]
• Oppose. DeadlyRampage26 (talk) 05:14, 18 September 2024 (UTC)[reply]
• Oppose, as Syria wasn't affected as nearly severe as Lebanon. — -kgoodluck- /// ✉️ 05:14, 18 September 2024 (UTC)[reply]
• Support: While Syria wasn't as badly affected as Lebanon, its important to understand that both countries were targeted, and as such, should be mentioned in the title. Ch3sp1n13 (talk) 06:13, 18 September 2024 (UTC)[reply]
• Oppose: It should be named 2024 Hezbollah pager explosions, the attack was not specifically targeted at Lebanon or Syria geographically or governmentally, it was targeted at Hezbollah, some of them just happened to also be in Syria.MarkiPoli (talk) 06:36, 18 September 2024 (UTC)[reply]
•  Comment: - I oppose renaming to 2024 Hezbollah pager explosions per VR. Tule-hog (talk) 07:38, 18 September 2024 (UTC)[reply]
• Oppose for simplicity and clarity. The event overwhelmingly affected Lebanon more than Syria. --Deeday-UK (talk) 08:19, 18 September 2024 (UTC)[reply]

• Oppose and second other proposals to rename this to 2024 Hezbollah pager explosions. While there were explosions in Syria and Iraq, this batch of pagers were ordered specifically for Hezbollah operations and handed out to Hezbollah members annd involved officials.

Amayorov (talk) 09:41, 18 September 2024 (UTC)[reply]

Referenced Reuters article states that the explosions lasted for an hour, not simultaneously. 12.196.187.18 (talk) 17:16, 17 September 2024 (UTC)[reply]

• I am sure this will be narrowed down precisely, but the earliest tweet i've seen so far mentioning the explosions was at 13:01 UTC. [12] / ETA 13:00 [13] --Milowent • ^hasspoken 17:19, 17 September 2024 (UTC)[reply]

I suspect we'll be waiting a while for clarity given the pace of reporting, but at the moment I'm seeing reports of an initial wave of near-simultaneous explosions, followed by a smaller number of explosions occurring over roughly one hour. (It would make sense for Israel to aim for simultaneity; maintaining the element of surprise for maximum effect.) I'll review the available sources. GhostOfNoMan 18:06, 17 September 2024 (UTC)[reply]

We're currently speculating that the lithium batteries exploded, but that's contradicted by the cited AP article which says: “A lithium ion battery fire is one thing, but I’ve never seen one explode like that. It looks like a small explosive charge”

Maybe we should remove the speculation about lithium batteries. Uhoj (talk) 19:23, 17 September 2024 (UTC)[reply]

People are also claiming "PETN" has been used, based on the 1996 operation with the exploding phone I would assume they would use RDX as it's proven with reliable electronic detonation.

https://x.com/vcdgf555/status/1836108274716021204

It just seems strange to me that you would make your detonation potentially unreliable by not using electronic detonation that could be targeted with specific POCSAG pager device IDs. ILSupplyChainEnjoyer (talk) 19:36, 17 September 2024 (UTC)[reply]

https://x.com/charles_lister/status/1836109363968176175

I'm skeptical of the claims relating to overheating the battery to initiate detonation solely because it seems like a horrible choice if you are already capable of putting explosives into the pager. ILSupplyChainEnjoyer (talk) 19:38, 17 September 2024 (UTC)[reply]

We have a source that mentions lithium batteries as source for the explosion. Until we have information to rule this out, it should stay. PS. Reports are that the exploding pager is a "Gold Alpha Pager 924" from "Apollo Systems".[14] This device is powered by AAA batteries.[15] The compromised device would still need to work until detonated, which speaks in favor of a battery explosion. If the AAA batteries are lihium ion and compromised to e.g. be made without pressure relief vents, and to start a thermal runaway if their charging current exceeds a given threshold, then this could well lead to the observed effect. At least, this cannot be ruled out at this stage. Lklundin (talk) 19:57, 17 September 2024 (UTC)[reply]

It's fine to keep the news media speculation about batteries in the article at present, but no, it's impossible. All the devices exploded nearly simultaneously, with seemingly the same strength. Did everybody keep their pagers fully charged? Also, editors here should keep in mind that is is to the benefit of whoever pulled this off that plenty of misinformation floods the zone. Abductive (reasoning) 20:43, 17 September 2024 (UTC)[reply]

According to CNN, experts are saying that it's more likely due to hardware tampering than lithium batteries, that the pagers were intentionally laced with explosives and that lithium batteries alone could never cause such an explosion, with former NSA Intelligence director David kennedy also agreeing:

"'In short, your communications device is not at risk for exploding unless it’s heavily tampered with and laced with explosives,' experts who spoke to CNN said."

Both of these are from the same live updates site: [16] [17] Jamisonsupame (talk) 21:29, 17 September 2024 (UTC)[reply]

It is obvious that Somebody placed a blasting cap with high Explosives in those pagers to reliably produce such injury. See e.g.

https://www.pbs.org/newshour/world/what-we-know-so-far-about-the-deadly-pager-explosions-in-lebanon-and-syria

In another article the authors assume that the explosive might have been Hidden in batteries with a reduced capacity. The capacity was only large enough that Nobody discovered a Problem during charging/usw. 84.165.93.19 (talk) 23:26, 17 September 2024 (UTC)[reply]

Our article claims the pagers were also recently imported there might have been limited time to notice mild unexpected behaviour. Nil Einne (talk) 03:06, 18 September 2024 (UTC)[reply]

OK, it's looks pretty definite now according to a NYT article [18]. The pagers are from Taiwan and Israel tampered with them adding 1-2oz. of explosive material near the battery plus a switch. At 3:30pm, a message was sent out that activated the switch causing all of them to explode, according to some "anonymous US officials." They also report that cyber security experts say it probably was explosives.

This should be changed in the article. Jamisonsupame (talk) 23:13, 17 September 2024 (UTC)[reply]

For what it's worth, CNN is quoting cybersecurity experts who are doubting the lithium battery theory and are theorizing that explosives were somehow inserted into thousands of pagers. The Mountain of Eden (talk) 21:31, 17 September 2024 (UTC)[reply]

What is the source for the battery drivel, anyway? It's shown as "citation needed" now, but if I'm not mistaken, before it was indicating the AP News article, which just doesn't mention any of that. I think it should be removed, sources get old quickly with these events. LjL (talk) 01:48, 18 September 2024 (UTC)[reply]

This claim that 500 people lost their eyesight has to be false. Even if 500 people did lose their eyesight, there is no way that extremely busy doctors and hospitals (150 hospitals, according to the article) could examine that many patients, assess the damage to their eyes, and report to (where, the health ministry?) that 500 people are now permanently blind, in the short time since the explosions. Moreover, it doesn't gibe with the number of deaths; there should be many more deaths or fewer lost eyes. Abductive (reasoning) 20:51, 17 September 2024 (UTC)[reply]

I'm removing it because whether or not it is true, it is a body detail and not a lead detail. We already mention that Hezbollah members were injured; the specific need to focus on them getting blinded feels to me like gloating. Atubofsilverware (talk) 20:58, 17 September 2024 (UTC)[reply]

Well the definition of injured varies dramatically. It could be anything from a scratch to getting your arm blown off. Cyrogigabyte (talk) 00:32, 18 September 2024 (UTC)[reply]

The article currently connects the Israel-Lebanon conflict to the Israel-Hamas war in a very one-sided way. It mentions the 2023 Hamas attack on Israel, but doesn't mention the Israeli bombing of the Gaza Strip and the invasion. The statement selectively quotes the source, as the source itself says Hezbollah’s leader, Hassan Nasrallah, has stressed the armed group is ready, but not eager, for war. He says if there is a ceasefire agreed in Gaza, Hezbollah will cease fire too, immediately. Indeed in another source, "If there is a ceasefire in Gaza, we will stop without any discussion," Hezbollah's deputy leader, Sheikh Naim Kassem, said in an interview with The Associated Press at the group's political office in Beirut's southern suburbs.[19]. That article, written in July, also points out that that 37,900 Palestinians have been killed in Israel's invasion. This is probably the most salient aspect of the Israel-Hamas war.

I added the death of 40,000 Palestinians, but this too was removed. Other RS have also mentioned the Palestinian death toll when mentioning Hezbollah's rationale for fighting. For example: Hezbollah says its attacks aim to support the Palestinians in the Gaza Strip, where nearly 18,000 people – most of them women and children – have been killed by Israel in two months. Al Jazeera Dec 2023 A war between the militant Palestinian group and Israeli forces that so far has killed more than 19,000 Palestinians, most of them women and children, according to Gaza's health ministry. Israel says about 1,200 people were killed in the Oct. 7 attack. After the Gaza war started, Hezbollah responded by attacking Israeli targets in northern Israel. NPR December 2023 Indeed, in a BBC interview, Hezbollah's deputy leader has referred to "Israel is increasing its aggression against civilians and killing more women and children" as his rationale for fighting.

VR _{(Please ping on reply)} 21:04, 17 September 2024 (UTC)[reply]

As a side note – it was, at one point, completely incorrect about the timeline: it incorrectly suggested Hezbollah began their attacks in response to Israel's ground invasion of Gaza, when in reality Hezbollah began their attacks against Israel on 8 October, one day after Hamas' incursion, in "solidarity".

Right now, that section is essentially just a summary with the same information as the lead of Israel–Hezbollah conflict (2023–present). Does adding death counts from Gaza really make that section more neutral? GhostOfNoMan 21:21, 17 September 2024 (UTC)[reply]

The Israeli invasion of the Gaza Strip encompasses all Israeli attacks against Gaza on and since October 7 (check the article please). And certainly the Israeli bombing of the Gaza Strip started on Oct 7 itself. Hezbollah has repeatedly called for "solidarity" with Palestinians, including women and children, as sources show above. Omitting the death count does make the section non-neutral and just because NPOV is violated elsewhere, doesn't mean it should be violated here too.VR _{(Please ping on reply)} 21:27, 17 September 2024 (UTC)[reply]

Hezbollah obviously weren't reacting to an invasion that hadn't begun yet. See Israeli invasion of the Gaza Strip#Invasion, the invasion didn't begin on October 7 no matter what the infobox date is, hence the note attached. If the article said Hezbollah were reacting to the "Israeli invasion" that's incredibly misleading to readers. There was no invasion on the 7th or 8th. The article did say something like that when I looked earlier. Now it's a clear timeline 2A04:4A43:52BF:ECDE:782E:7BC6:9B97:57B7 (talk) 22:03, 17 September 2024 (UTC)[reply]

Is the Israeli bombing of the Gaza Strip not a prelude to the invasion? In any case, would you support the change with term "bombing" instead of "invasion"? VR _{(Please ping on reply)} 22:35, 17 September 2024 (UTC)[reply]

Still can't retcon in a death toll that didn't exist on October 8. PrimaPrime (talk) 00:49, 18 September 2024 (UTC)[reply]

Trim the background. All the details can be in the other article. no need for expansive "context" that triggers disupute when the real article is about yesterday's events.Sportsnut24 (talk) 03:26, 18 September 2024 (UTC)[reply]

It's one paragraph on the background, summarized from the main article and hardly seems excessive. And the last line's "6,124 Israeli vs. 1,258 Lebanese attacks" (yes, sourced) casts as much bad light on Israel as is necessary. Remove the tag. Moscow Mule (talk) 04:47, 18 September 2024 (UTC)[reply]

BBC News (television, in UK) is reporting that the pagers involved (or some of them) were "Gold" brand. Andy Mabbett (Pigsonthewing); Talk to Andy; Andy's edits 21:07, 17 September 2024 (UTC)[reply]

more on pager source Tule-hog (talk) 07:33, 18 September 2024 (UTC)[reply]

This edit request to 2024 Lebanon pager explosions has been answered. Set the |answered= or |ans= parameter to no to reactivate your request.

Add the model of the pager as the Gold Apollo AR-924 model of pagers. Sources for this are https://www.i24news.tv/en/news/israel-at-war/artc-exploding-hezbollah-devices-reportedly-issued-in-recent-days https://www.wired.com/story/pager-explosion-hezbollah/ https://en.royanews.tv/news/54236 Cyrogigabyte (talk) 21:11, 17 September 2024 (UTC)[reply]

Done. Atubofsilverware (talk) 21:28, 17 September 2024 (UTC)[reply]

This edit request to 2024 Lebanon pager explosions has been answered. Set the |answered= or |ans= parameter to no to reactivate your request.

Change "Golf Golf Apollo AR-924" to "Gold Apollo AR-924" Giammarco Ferrari (talk) 23:07, 17 September 2024 (UTC)[reply]

 Done Chomik! (talk?) 23:50, 17 September 2024 (UTC)[reply]

This edit request to 2024 Lebanon pager explosions has been answered. Set the |answered= or |ans= parameter to no to reactivate your request.

Change Golf to gold. There is a spelling mistake stating "Golf Apollo AR-924" when it should be Gold Apollo AR-924 Herefordarkmode (talk) 23:47, 17 September 2024 (UTC)[reply]

 Done Chomik! (talk?) 23:49, 17 September 2024 (UTC)[reply]

Currently the infobox says the target was "Hezbollah militants". I'm not sure if this is accurate as Hezbollah is comprised of both militants and civilians (it is also a political party). Further, Hezbollah has said the attack also targeted civilians and this allegation is notable enough to have been quoted in several reliable secondary sources: ABC News, Global News, Washington Post etc. So the infobox should also say "Civilians (per Hezbollah)".VR _{(Please ping on reply)} 21:16, 17 September 2024 (UTC)[reply]

In fact, ABC News itself is cautious on the targets[20] "It appeared that many of those hit were members of Hezbollah, but it was not immediately clear if others also carried the pagers."

Jeanine Hennis-Plasschaert, the UN special coordinator for Lebanon also condemned the attack, justifying her condemnation by adding, "In accordance with international humanitarian law, she reminds all concerned actors that civilians are not a target and must be protected at all times. Even one civilian casualty is one too many"[21]. VR _{(Please ping on reply)} 21:20, 17 September 2024 (UTC)[reply]

Support for saying the target is "unknown" or "either Hezbollah members or civilians" Atubofsilverware (talk) 21:34, 17 September 2024 (UTC)[reply]

We shouldn't include "or civilians" based on a Hezbollah claim alone. We would need an independent source, preferably one without clear biases. — xDanielx ^T/_C\^R 05:16, 18 September 2024 (UTC)[reply]

We generally include IDF claims if they have been presented in multiple reliable, secondary sources, and we should do the same thing here. WP:NPOV means we don't take sides, but explain them.VR _{(Please ping on reply)} 05:39, 18 September 2024 (UTC)[reply]

"Hezbollah militants" is certainly questionable. Are we to believe only militants carry pagers? Hezbollah has teachers, medics, social workers, news crews and journalists, etc. I don't know to what extent this attack was indiscriminate (perhaps Israel intercepted communications and filtered targets, but I doubt it), but to list the target as "Hezbollah militants" right out of the gate seems wrong, to me. "Hezbollah members" is more fitting, and covers both militants and civilians. GhostOfNoMan 22:15, 17 September 2024 (UTC)[reply]

Yes, we are to believe that only militants carried a special pager. Why would a teacher or a social work need a pager, rather than using an ordinary smartphone? Perhaps if you can think of a rationale for them to need this kind of security you can change it, otherwise militants is accurate. Ariel. (talk) 04:30, 18 September 2024 (UTC)[reply]

These pagers are apparently also carrier by healthcare workers: The Lebanese Health Ministry "has also urged healthcare workers and others with pagers to discard them."[22]

The Lebanese Health Minister also stated "The vast majority of the people who are presenting to the emergency rooms are in civilian clothes, so it's very difficult to discern whether they belong to a certain entity like Hezbollah or others But we are seeing among them people who are old or people who are very young, like the child who unfortunately died... and there are some of them who are healthcare workers".VR _{(Please ping on reply)} 04:49, 18 September 2024 (UTC)[reply]

"Author Dyab Abou Jahjah pointed out that many of the pagers that exploded were not just owned by Hezbollah fighters, but civilians that are employed by Hezbollah's institutions."[23] VR _{(Please ping on reply)} 05:07, 18 September 2024 (UTC)[reply]

The evidence just keeps piling up: Mohammad Barakat, a journalist known for his strong opposition to Hezbollah...shared a clip from one of his appearances on VDL 24, where he stressed that the attack targeted not only Hezbollah members but also civilians, in an indiscriminate manner.[24]

Professor Toby Walsh of the UNSW School of Computer Science and Engineering points out that it is impossible for the IDF to track a pager, thus "It's a very indiscriminate attack, because you might put the pager down in your desk, and as we have heard from reports there were various innocent people who were injured by this". VR _{(Please ping on reply)} 05:38, 18 September 2024 (UTC)[reply]

If so, adding a video would improve this article. FunLater (talk) 21:54, 17 September 2024 (UTC)[reply]

Good question. And if it's not, then we should consider adding one under WP:NFCC. Sdkb ^talk 22:49, 17 September 2024 (UTC)[reply]

There's probably a discussion about this somewhere on Commons. Sdkb ^talk 22:50, 17 September 2024 (UTC)[reply]

WP:MCQ is an excellent place to ask. Plenty of knowledgeable people there. Mjroots (talk) 05:45, 18 September 2024 (UTC)[reply]

This edit request to 2024 Lebanon pager explosions has been answered. Set the |answered= or |ans= parameter to no to reactivate your request.

I believe the explosive behind the explosion was Pentaerythritol Tetranitrate (PETN). [25]; [26]; [27]; [28]. Cyrogigabyte (talk) 00:06, 18 September 2024 (UTC)[reply]

 Not done. That may well be true, or maybe not. But the sources listed above are either speculating or are unreliable (Daily Wire in particular). Cullen328 (talk) 06:42, 18 September 2024 (UTC)[reply]

It is being reported that, following the first wave of attacks, the network was paged with the message "احذر. قد ينفجر جهازك", which translates loosely as "Beware. Your device might explode.", and moments later the device did indeed explode. Flusapochterasumesch (talk) 00:09, 18 September 2024 (UTC)[reply]

Sources? Because I can't find any.

[29] Cyrogigabyte (talk) 00:30, 18 September 2024 (UTC)[reply]

To add to this article: how many people are in critical condition due to the pager explosions. Various news sources report the number as approximately 200 or "hundreds." 98.123.38.211 (talk) 01:49, 18 September 2024 (UTC)[reply]

@Nice4What: you removed the NPOV tag saying "NPOV issue has been resolved – background section was shortened". But the discussion regarding NPOV is still ongoing and the contested content is still in the background section, whereas the content that some want to insert is still not in the background. Furthermore there are two other NPOV discussions above on the targets and whether to include the death of a child, esp in the infobox.

Can you please self revert?VR _{(Please ping on reply)} 05:43, 18 September 2024 (UTC)[reply]

Add a second name "The Pager noon" which sounds like "The Fajr Night" AKA Operation Density 46.116.96.151 (talk) 07:23, 18 September 2024 (UTC)[reply]

[30]Sportsnut24 (talk) 08:12, 18 September 2024 (UTC)[reply]

Already has been added. --Rsrikanth05 (talk) 09:37, 18 September 2024 (UTC)[reply]

However, should it be shifted to the responses rection? --Rsrikanth05 (talk) 09:37, 18 September 2024 (UTC)[reply]

The fact that this is an Israeli attack is now confirmed by RS like CNN: Israel behind deadly pager explosions that targeted Hezbollah and injured thousands in Lebanon => "Hezbollah has vowed to respond to an Israeli attack.." and "CNN has learned the explosions were the result of a joint operation between Israel’s intelligence service, Mossad, and the Israeli military. While the Israeli military has said it will not comment on the explosions, both Lebanon and Hezbollah have blamed it for the attack." So why was attack removed from the opening sentence? Makeandtoss (talk) 09:14, 18 September 2024 (UTC)[reply]